Toph vs Zuko

Round 1 - The two face off 15 feet apart on a vast flat earthen surface with stone buildings spread throughout randomly.

Round 2 - Same as Round 1, but Zuko is powered by Sozin's comet.

vs.

Tags

@stormdriven@jacthripper@amendment50@cpt_nice@koays@gxrevolution@justicethorpsylocke@anthp2000

@thunderbolt30@blackestnight93@llehdevil@neongamewave@lvenger@cosmic_lantern@marty2187

@arcus1@noobsnowman@silverrings@blacklegraph@marvelfan1992@indomitableregal

@pr0metheus@sophia89@princearagorn1@deathhero61@juiceboks@etheral_dreams

Round 1: Toph, pretty easily.

Round 2: Zuko one-shots.

R1) Toph. Low difficulty.

R2) Zuko, only slightly closer than round 1.

Toph

Zuko

Feel like versions of this have been done before

Anyway

Same as everyone else

Toph R1, but not as easily as everyone's suggesting

And Zuko round 2 without too much difficulty

@smoke-w:

Toph both rounds.

Toph's defense is strong enough to withstand Zuko's fire - even his comet amped fire. Toph has excellent awareness of her surrounding - much better than Zuko - and unlike Ozai or Azula, Zuko hasn't shown the ability to go airborne and attack Toph from the one place he'd be invisible.

Toph

Zuko

Toph is more badass though ☺

Good analysis, but realistically, there would be too much firepower to deal with. Even though in the comics, Toph has some great defensive and offensive feats. Such as defending firebending blasts from an AS Aang. Or being able to hold a mineshaft, or ripping up a mountain in her fight against Bumi, the same bumi who can send gigantic pillars flying, and houses.

Edit: Despite these feats, Sozin's comet firepower would be too much.

@deathhero61: But if, like Aang, Toph makes an earth armor or surrounds herself in an earth shell, then, unlike Aang, she can keep attacking Zuko without worrying much about her defense. Since she doesn't need to see to attack.

But even when Aang kept up a defense, it was slowly crumbling apart, even when Aang made an absolute sphere of defense to protect himself from Ozai, before going into the avatar state, Ozai eventually blasted through Aang's defense.

@deathhero61: But he was safe while the defense lasted and it lasted quite a while. And unlike Aang, Toph would be attacking from behind her defensive barrier.

@marty2187: Fair enough but i don't think that will be enough to actually last against a spammed assault of Sozin Comet Blasts if Zuko starts to get more aggressive.

Eh, I can't see either round being a stomp. But yeah, I'd say Toph round 1, Zuko round 2.

Toph high difficulty

Zuko extreme difficulty

Toph, in a good fight.

Zuko in a medicroe fight.

Toph high dif.
Zuko murderstomps. What the heck with all the Toph wank???

@deathhero61:

Fair enough but i don't think that will be enough to actually last against a spammed assault of Sozin Comet Blasts if Zuko starts to get more aggressive.

But Zuko can't spam it because he'd have to defend against Toph's attacks as well.

Zuko's attacks would just be powerful enough to attack and efend at the same time. You are actually thrying to tell me that Toph stands the slightest chance possible in Round 2?

This, unlike Azula, Zuko is easily capable of spamming attacks, and throwing out moves with intense force, especially during the Sozin Comet, Zuko was pretty impressive in that fight given the advantages that Azula had despite insane.

tbh, Azula was the one spamming attacks thus becoming more tired. Part of her downfall and insanity. The point however is that while Zuko could defend against her attacks, Toph has absolutely no way possible to. Ozai's attacks on that ball were first of all not as strong as Zuko's best ones:

And when Ozai told so, the rock shield was done for.
And we know that Zuko's fire blasts are pretty much as strong as Azula's. Airbone or not, lightning or not, Toph gets murdered by top tier firebenders in the comet.

zuko stomps tbh

@anthp2000: My thing about it is, although she had help, Katara managed to hold her own fighting Azula as well if you think about it. Toph imo is easily the more powerful and more skilled bender. So it makes me wonder how much more of a factor she would have played in the fight against azula instead of Katara.

In regards to spamming attacks, that's part of what I mean, but at the same time, we seen Zuko spam attacks like crazy in some fights, like at the catacombs, I don't have the gif though. Anywho, Zuko was patient the entire fight. IMO if he fights that way the entire time, maybe toph can catch him off guard, but as soon as he starts to get aggressive, she has no real chance, she will eventually fall. Regardless of the level of difficulty.

Katara didn't really "fight" Azula. She was running away evading.
IMO Toph is not more skilled than either Katara or Azula. Equaly skilled, but that's another argument.
The point is that Toph would be dead if she was in Katara's position simply because Katara was fast enough to keep up with her blasts while Toph wouldn't be and we know that neither of them is lasting against her comet amped head on.

You talkin' about that part.

However, I think that this would be pretty energy wasting and instead I wuold recommend somethign like this instead:

Toph can't block those, while they do not waste as much chi in one spamming attack.
Well, regrdless, Zuko stomps 10/10 for me. At least she handily takes R1 in a good fight.

toph round 1

zuko round 2

@deathhero61: @anthp2000:

I can't find the thread, but I refer you to a similar discussion about Bumi vs comet-amped Azula.

There, the argument was that Bumi's defenses where strong enough to withstand comet-amped firebending. Aang's defenses withstanding Ozai's firebending were also brought up as evidence that earthbending defense can withstand amped firebending attacks. Given that, I see no reason why Toph's defense can't withstand Zuko's attacks.

Furthermore, Toph has an advantage that neither of those do - her seismic sense. While Aang and Bumi wouldn't be able to attack from behind their defensive barrier, because they won't be able to see their enemy, Toph can and would. Thus giving her the advantage.

Bumi has far more raw power than toph and aang, Aang barely defended against Ozai's firebending. So it makes sense why one could argue that, although Toph was dead equal with Bumi, one could argue toph matched Bumi's strength with her own skill. Because she doesn't have showings as physically impressive.

Aang can also use the seismic sense though.....that was one of the final things toph taught to aang before his fight with Ozai.

@deathhero61:

Bumi has far more raw power than toph and aang, Aang barely defended against Ozai's firebending. So it makes sense why one could argue that, although Toph was dead equal with Bumi, one could argue toph matched Bumi's strength with her own skill. Because she doesn't have showings as physically impressive.

The point is, Aang was able to adequately defend against Ozai's firebending. Which means Toph - his teacher - should be able to defend against Zuko's.

Aang can also use the seismic sense though.....that was one of the final things toph taught to aang before his fight with Ozai.

Not to the same level as Toph though.

@marty2187

The point is, Aang was able to adequately defend against Ozai's firebending. Which means Toph - his teacher - should be able to defend against Zuko's.

Yeah, I had made that thread with Bumi and Azula. Like already mentioned, Toph isn't Bumi.

Not to the same level as Toph though.

Not much of a difference, really. First of all, he would have used it too if he could, second, the only times Aang defended against Ozai with earthbending were times that Ozai's blasts were smaller and he was maybe tired. The sphere was good, and it can make Toph last some seconds, but no. Zuko has moves to destroy it faster than Ozai.

Ends in sex.

@anthp2000:

Yeah, I had made that thread with Bumi and Azula. Like already mentioned, Toph isn't Bumi.

But she is better than Aang.

Not much of a difference, really. First of all, he would have used it too if he could, second, the only times Aang defended against Ozai with earthbending were times that Ozai's blasts were smaller and he was maybe tired. The sphere was good, and it can make Toph last some seconds, but no. Zuko has moves to destroy it faster than Ozai.

Ozai was flying around a lot, so seismic sense was probably useless in that case.

And Aang's shell withstood some extremely powerful blasts from Ozai.

@marty2187

But she is better than Aang.

Being better than Aang does't mean that she can win here. She has no way of hurting Zuko. Her attacks aren't even that big to begin with.

He was not flying around when Aang was using shields, that you claim is the good combination for Toph.

And yet none of those blasts were as powerful as this:

@anthp2000:

Being better than Aang does't mean that she can win here. She has no way of hurting Zuko. Her attacks aren't even that big to begin with.

Being better than Aang means her defense would be stronger. And she can hurt Zuko by bending the earth beneath his feet.

And yet none of those blasts were as powerful as this:

Excuse me?

@marty2187

Being better than Aang means her defense would be stronger. And she can hurt Zuko by bending the earth beneath his feet.

Not strong enough. Toph needs to be in an earth sphere to not get hurt and she isn't attacking from there.
Wow! Toph can bend the earth beneath his feet! How deadly! Except that it never worked with other opponents. namely, Azula and Ty Lee.

Excuse me?

Excuse you but like you also say many times, size is a lot different than power evidently.

Putting up a defense like that and just leaving it isn't gonna work, she'd have to put some degree of effort into maintaining it (keeping it from breaking apart under Zuko's attacks). It's not like she can just wall herself in for a perfect defense and proceed to attack without any issues

Toph probably wins the first round after a hard fight, as her defences are better than Zuko's and she could potentially KO him more easily than he could her, but i reckon Zuko's got the second round in the bag. His fire attacks can be enormous, and powerful enough to blast through her earth-based defences, when comet-amped. He could basically just spam Toph with unavoidable amounts of searing flame and roast the blind little badass. Her metal bending would be a big help in both rounds but it would only be of offensive use in the second round as Zuko could just cook her if she made a suit of metal armour for herself.

@cosmic_lantern

How so? If anything Zuko lacks defense from her attacks, she can sit behind a shield and take him at a distance, the flames don't really begin to blow away rock until he's CQC range as evident with aang and Ozai. The attacks size means nothing, it's the potency of it that matters.

Zuko lacks defence? Hardly. First of all, with the comet he was able to boost himself in the sky for strong jumps. Secondly, he has shields that defend against CM's blasts. Third, he can dodge.
Um, no. It wasn't that Ozai had to get close.. It was hat he had to charge an attack.
And yeah, Toph is getting one shot if she tries to attack cause she cannot stay behind a shield.

You just prove my point. Ozai had size against that fireball, but Zuko's best attacks had far more potency that tha:

Zukos firebending better than Ozai? No.

Zuko's SPECIFIC attacks are better than Ozai's SPECIFIC attacks.

I will admit after dragons Zuko became more level headed in his fighting similar to Iroh, but as far as scale the guy was engulfing an entire landscape by himself which beforehand it took 5 high level firebenders.

1. Why do you bring Iroh to this argument?
2. What landscape and what 5 high level firebenders?

He did this both continuously and casually, Zuko even with comic feats isn't on that level but his technique with his element has improved astoundingly.

On Iroh's level? Maybe he isn't entirely there, but he is easily close.
He is easily on Toph's level or at least around her.

He could win round 2 if he constantly pressures her, otherwise if toph gains any headway it's going to be hard to stop her momentum.

Momentum? I don't make the same argument for Toph here. She is not getting anything from a top tier firebender with the comet. She takes R1, but she gets murderstomped in R2.

Can you help in this argument here @arcus1@justicethorpsylocke ?

@anthp2000:

Not strong enough. Toph needs to be in an earth sphere to not get hurt and she isn't attacking from there.

Wow! Toph can bend the earth beneath his feet! How deadly! Except that it never worked with other opponents. namely, Azula and Ty Lee.

Why can't Toph attack from inside the sphere? And both Azula and Ty Lee are faster than Zuko.

Excuse you but like you also say many times, size is a lot different than power evidently.

Any evidence that Zuko is packing more power in his blast than Ozai?

@arcus1:

Putting up a defense like that and just leaving it isn't gonna work, she'd have to put some degree of effort into maintaining it (keeping it from breaking apart under Zuko's attacks). It's not like she can just wall herself in for a perfect defense and proceed to attack without any issues

But the effort doesn't have to be constant. She can keep reinforcing it while Zuko charges the attacks and she can attack back in the downtime.

Because Aang had to put much effort to block weaker attacks.
Let's not act like Zuko lacks reflexes or agility either.

Maybe the fact that it looks far more potent and Azula was unable to block it while Aang was blocking similar blasts from Ozai before he got into the ball.

No, I mean she needs to have at least some degree of focus at all times to keep the shield up. Why do you think we've never really seen earthbenders just wall themselves up and attack from inside a shield while they're being attacked? Against firepower like Zuko's, Toph's not going to have an easy time defending

It took all of Aang's effort to defend against Ozai's attacks, and Ozai wasn't even going all out against Aang. Toph's not going to be able to easily defend against Zuko while attacking him at the same time.

@arcus1:

Why do you think we've never really seen earthbenders just wall themselves up and attack from inside a shield while they're being attacked?

Because unlike Toph, other earthbenders need to see their opponent to attack.

Doesn't matter simply because she has to MOVE her body to attack.S he'll be too busy strugglnig to defend against comet blasts.

And yet Toph's never used this strategy

@arcus1:

And yet Toph's never used this strategy

She did on the blimp.

@anthp2000:

Doesn't matter simply because she has to MOVE her body to attack.S he'll be too busy strugglnig to defend against comet blasts.

What makes you think she won't have the room to move behind whatever defensive barrier she creates?

Maybe that whatever barrier she creates will be destroyed instantly by Zuko's blasts if she leaves it to attack. I ain't saying that she doesn't have to room. I'm sayign tht she has to MOVE to attack while she also has to defend making a stance in order to keep the defence up.

@anthp2000:

Maybe that whatever barrier she creates will be destroyed instantly by Zuko's blasts if she leaves it to attack.

What's the basis for this presumption?