Toph vs Ozai

Toph

Ozai

Rules

• No Sozin's Comet
• Win by KO or Death
• Start 20 ft apart

Battle takes place at the Crystal Catacombs:

Tags

@stormdriven@jacthripper@amendment50@cpt_nice@koays@gxrevolution@justicethorpsylocke@anthp2000

@thunderbolt30@blackestnight93@llehdevil@neongamewave@lvenger@cosmic_lantern@marty2187

@arcus1@noobsnowman@silverrings@blacklegraph@marvelfan1992@indomitableregal

@pr0metheus@sophia89@princearagorn1@deathhero61@juiceboks@etheral_dreams

Fairly sure this has been done

If we're going very strictly by feats, I guess Toph. But that would ignore everything we know about Ozai. By logic he can beat Toph. Mabye adult Toph could beat him, but kid Toph's not winning this fight

Ozai. Weaker lightning has broken Toph'a defense

Ozai, obviously.

But it's a decent fight.

Ozai in a relative good fight.

Toph.

How can anyone say toph when ozai is the big bad vilian of the series more powerful than everyone but the avatar?

If ozai was that weak, am sure other 3 nations would have overpowered the fire nation a long time ago

Feats say that Ozai is a bad fighter despite being a great bender and that he would lose to many great fighters.

Ozai's personal power doesn't have to do at all with the Fire Nation and their armies.

@gamingod: You say that as if Ozai is literally the only one fighting off other nations, he has an army with advanced tech such as firebending tanks and several airships

Ozai is actually the one doing nothing :P He sends his children, aggresive genrals, non-benders and armies with airships to do the job for him.

@anthp2000: Poor reflexes? Can you elaborate on that?

He would be killed by his own lightnign 2 times... He couldn't react and while I can excuse him for the Eclipse scene, his fight with Aang and the redirection part prove it. Here's the timeline of the scene:

19:13 Aang has completely grabbed the lightning
19:16 slow motion begins
19:19 slow motion ends
19:26 Ozai decides to attack

That's very poor reflexes for the Avatarverse when you see charaters doing things like those:

Zuko reacting to arrows with his back turned CQ
Azula reacting to surprise boulders rain at the drill and dancing around them while aiming for her head
Mai reacting to instant lightning CQ
Azula evading and disarming Suki's sword point blank barehanded
Aang reacting to numerous sneak attacks throughout the series
Tenzin reacting to surprise equalists using his mustache senses
Azula reacting to Sokka's sneak bommerang/club double slice point blank while chasing Katara
Sokka and Katara reacting to Mai's arrows numerous times (those from her shooter are as fast as normal arrows)
Korra reacting to surprise explosives

And putting him against Toph that has arguably better reflexes than anyone on this list?

And those are just the very few showings that come to mind right now. Ozai has poor reflexes for the verse's overal level and in order ot make up for this, he would need either good agility (not even close) or Sozin's/Roku's level of firebending, that he isn't even close to either.

Against Aang he was very surprised that Aang was able to redirect lighting (I mean, Aang's not a particularly experienced firebender), and even so we don't know if he would have been able to avoid it or not. Aang didn't fire it at him so there was no need to react. Ozai didn't attack immediately after because he didn't need to. Aang was weakened, and he knew he'd won the fight at that point (obviously didn't count on the Avatar State)

If he didn't have good reaction abilities, he wouldn't have been able to evade numerous Avatar State attacks. Sure he used his fire jets, but to travel at those kinds of speeds you need good reactions

The creators outright stated that he's the best firebender in ATLA, he'd beat Zuko and Azula.

@arcus1

Against Aang he was very surprised that Aang was able to redirect lighting (I mean, Aang's not a particularly experienced firebender), and even so we don't know if he would have been able to avoid it or not. Aang didn't fire it at him so there was no need to react. Ozai didn't attack immediately after because he didn't need to. Aang was weakened, and he knew he'd won the fight at that point (obviously didn't count on the Avatar State)

He knew that Zuko had the technique. He knew that Zuko had teamed up with the Avatar. He knew that Zuko was teaching Aang firebending. But he didn't expect Aang to have the technique? How dumb is he?
Ozai was frozen for way more than 10 seconds, and he did not attack Aang right after "Let's wait some more for the Avatar to recover".
And of course he wouldn't be able to dodge it. Look at his face and his body stance.
That's way too bad reflexes for a verse with these people.

If he didn't have good reaction abilities, he wouldn't have been able to evade numerous Avatar State attacks. Sure he used his fire jets, but to travel at those kinds of speeds you need good reactions

When did he evade numerous of those? All he did was run away using fire jets. He didn't need to have reflexes, just the speed to run away, and at the end, he was still unable to evade most of the attacks.

The creators outright stated that he's the best firebender in ATLA, he'd beat Zuko and Azula.

See the point? Slightly better bending is nothing when you are outclassed is so many things in battle.
Ozai isn't Iroh, who has arrow timing feats and is an exceptional firebender.
Ozai is too overhyped for his showings.

Toph curbstomps. Seismic sense allows her anticipate and effectively counter anyting he throws at her. It's basically precog

@avatarreiko: Seismic sense is not precog. Benders without seismic sense do the same things all the time:

SS is just Toph's way of seeing. The only advantage it gives is that she can see anything around her, but that's it.

It's not precog in any way, it's just good refelxes that apparently a huge list of benders do not lack. That's ridiculous... and I'm not going on the same argument again...

Going with Toph, his only shot is lightning. People also need to start using a balanced environment to include metalbending, nevertheless Ozai is still at a disadvantage in this enclosed cave like area. Aang isn't a warrior like toph is hence why he hesitated too much and was pressured, he won't get an opportunity like that here (morals off katara could probably pull something off also IMO).

Aang was a pretty mediocre firebender, while lighting redirection is a high end move.

Frozen for more than 10 seconds after Aang redirected the lighting? No, he smiled and then blasted Aang off the pillar. It seems like longer while Aang held onto the lightning cause it was in slow-mo

And half of the reaction feats you posted aren't that impressive, certainly not enough to say that Ozai couldn't possibly replicate them. The assumption that he couldn't possibly have avoided the lighting also seems invalid. We can clearly see he's in excellent physical condition, we know he's better than someone like Azula, Zuko flat out admitted he wouldn't be able to beat him (saying Iroh was the only other one who possibly could), Iroh wasn't sure he could beat him (and Iroh's not one to understate his firebending abilities), do you really think he couldn't conceivably arrow time like a random Kyoshi warrior?

Being able to travel fast doesn't matter if you don't have the reflexes to react in time to avoid obstacles and attacks. Just watch the video

Yes, he has limited showings. However, the writers made it very clear how good he was supposed to be, and that's a level above someone like child Toph

Seismic sense is not precog. Yes it lets her tell how her opponents are moving, a sighted person can do the same thing. It also doesn't automatically let her counter anything, just because she can tell someone is attacking doesn't automatically give her the ability to stop it

@smoke-w: Mismatch. Ozai stomps.

Honestly, Ozai's feats without the comet aren't that impressive. I'd say Toph has a pretty good chance at beating him.

@arcus1

Aang was a pretty mediocre firebender, while lighting redirection is a high end move.

Early Book 2 Zuko was a very mediocre firebender, and he learned lighting redirection.

Frozen for more than 10 seconds after Aang redirected the lighting? No, he smiled and then blasted Aang off the pillar. It seems like longer while Aang held onto the lightning cause it was in slow-mo

That's the timeline:

19:13 Aang has completely grabbed the lightning
19:16 slow motion begins
That's 3 seconds
19:19 slow motion ends
That's another 3 seconds
19:26 Ozai decides to attack
That's 7 seconds.

And the video is a little tiny sped up, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

And half of the reaction feats you posted aren't that impressive, certainly not enough to say that Ozai couldn't possibly replicate them. The assumption that he couldn't possibly have avoided the lighting also seems invalid.

They aren't impressive and Ozai could posibly replicate them? I doubt it:

Zuko reacting to arrows with his back turned CQ Not a chance
Azula reacting to surprise boulders rain at the drill and dancing around them while aiming for her head If he's lucky
Mai reacting to instant lightning CQ Maybe...
Azula evading and disarming Suki's sword point blank barehanded No
Aang reacting to numerous sneak attacks throughout the series No way
Tenzin reacting to surprise equalists using his mustache senses Not even close
Azula reacting to Sokka's sneak bommerang/club double slice point blank while chasing Katara Meeh, not sure
Sokka and Katara reacting to Mai's arrows numerous times (those from her shooter are as fast as normal arrows) Possibly
Korra reacting to surprise explosives Not a chance

All these feats, imply that these characters would have reacted to his redirection moments. That he didn't.
And those aren't even the greatest reflexes feats of the verse, and you do know it well, Arcus.

We can clearly see he's in excellent physical condition, we know he's better than someone like Azula, Zuko flat out admitted he wouldn't be able to beat him (saying Iroh was the only other one who possibly could), Iroh wasn't sure he could beat him (and Iroh's not one to understate his firebending abilities), do you really think he couldn't conceivably arrow time like a random Kyoshi warrior?

He is in excellent physical condition as fasr as endurance/strength goes. Agility? Speed? Reflexes? Nothing. And those are more important physicals. And even in endurance, his children have arguably better feats.
Better than someone like Azula? In firebending with a small gap. If you have them stuck in one stance and start firebending at each other, he would win. But that's not the only thing in battles.
Book 3 Zuko admitted it. Zuko is not as agile as Azula. With his new firebending abilities as well as redirection and his own agility/endurance, I put my money on him. First of all, Azula can shoot him lightning whereas he would obviously be dead if he tries it. Zuko has the new dragon technique and stuff. And their raw power grew on that level.
Iroh not being sure he could beat him doesn't mean a lot. Of course NO FIREBENDER could possibly beat him 1v1 with the COMET AMP. It allowed him to fly around at high speeds, and launch extraordinarly huge lightning bolts and charged fire blasts. But WITHOUT the comet he cannot fly around, he cannot shoot blasts that cover several feet and yards and he needs more. He needs reflexes, speed, agility as well as versatality. And that's why even if he's the best WITH he comet, he isn't great or better than his children WITHOUT it.
The Kyoshi Warrior that blocked Mai's arrows? That wasn't arrow timing. That's why I ddin't bring the Kyshi Warrior up. Mai threw those arrows with her hands. I'm talking about Katara and Sokka that block her arrows from the shooter mechanism thing.

Being able to travel fast doesn't matter if you don't have the reflexes to react in time to avoid obstacles and attacks. Just watch the video

I watched the video again. He has the reflexes to fly around rock pillars. How does that make up for his lack of reflexes in combat situations. All the characters above laugh at his reflexes.

Yes, he has limited showings. However, the writers made it very clear how good he was supposed to be, and that's a level above someone like child Toph

Yeah. They intented to make Ozai look a lot better. But showings say otherwise. His casual blasts weren't at all a lot bigger than his children's back in Book 3. His charged ones are another thing...
His problem is not that he has limited showings. It's that these limited showings make him look bad without the comet. Look at Bumi. He has very limited showings and he still looked extremely OP. Look at Roku. Look at Sozin. Look at Pakku. Look at Iroh. Look at so many people with more limited showings than Ozai.
They also intented to make Ozai look leagues stronger than Bumi, but based on logic and feats, he would wreck him for example.

@gamingod: the fire nation his strong does not mean Ozai is personally strong. He his a terrible fighter. He can bend fire very well but cos he as no control it makes him weak. With the amount of fire he was chunning out plus the fact that the avatar didn't want to kill him he should gave easily ended the battle

@arcus1: iroh saying he didn't know of if he could beat ozai could have nothing to do with feat. I got in a fight with my younger sister in a karate class and she won. Not cos she was better skilled or stronger(I thought her some f

Of what she knows and I rank higher than her) she own cos she is my sister and younger than I was so I held back cos I didn't want to hurt her in any way. This could apply to iroh and Ozai case.

Due to almost no feats Toph actually has a chance. Though that one lightning feat is enough to give Ozai the majority.

Ozai takes it.

He learned it late book 2, along with other instruction from Iroh that boosted his firebending skill. And Aang never really reached the level of even book 1 Zuko in firebending

Arrows travel at the speed of fire blasts. Are you implying that Ozai wouldn't be able to react to a fire blast? That would make him a horrible firebender.

And I'm not even arguing that Ozai's the fastest character in the verse. However, it's been made abundantly clear that he's quite dangerous.

End of book 3 admitted Ozai was a league above him (he already had the dragon training and everything). Comic feats don't add anything that significant

The amp boosts all firebenders equally, a firebending match under Sozin's Comet would go down the same as a match without Sozin's comet

There's no particular indication that they intended Ozai to be leagues stronger than Bumi.

You're entire argument revolves around the assumption that Ozai couldn't possibly have reacted to the redirected lighting, so therefore he must be incredibly slow. However, it's invalid for a number of reasons. For one thing, we don't know if he could have reacted or not. We've seen a number of times that characters can react after lighting has been fired, who says Ozai couldn't have done the same? Second, basically all of the scene is in slow-mo, so trying to measure seconds and stuff doesn't really work well at all. Third, it's not like failing to react to lighting redirection is that incredibly horrible. Azula was unable to react when Iroh redirected her lighting and kicked her off her ship, for example. Obviously not exactly the same, but just assuming it makes Ozai incredibly slow isn't right at all

@arcus1

He learned it late book 2, along with other instruction from Iroh that boosted his firebending skill. And Aang never really reached the level of even book 1 Zuko in firebending

Late? Nope. It was Ep8. He was stil fodderized by Azula. Late Book 2 Zuko was on her league.
Book 1 Zuko was pretty rookie too. The gap isn't that big.

Arrows travel at the speed of fire blasts. Are you implying that Ozai wouldn't be able to react to a fire blast? That would make him a horrible firebender.

I highily doubt arrows travel at the speed of fire blasts. They are a lot faster.

And I'm not even arguing that Ozai's the fastest character in the verse. However, it's been made abundantly clear that he's quite dangerous.

Yeah, he is. That doesn't mean that he is what his hype makes him out to be. An unbeatable beast on the level of a fully realised Avatar.
And I guess that he would beat Toph because of her bad showings against fire and lighting mostly. However, someone like Katara would definetely beat him since she already blocked Azula's comet lightning. And I would put my money on Azaula every single day.

End of book 3 admitted Ozai was a league above him (he already had the dragon training and everything). Comic feats don't add anything that significant

A league? He just said that he couldn't beat him.
S&S offer Zuko a great amount of raw power as well as his dragon technique.

The amp boosts all firebenders equally, a firebending match under Sozin's Comet would go down the same as a match without Sozin's comet

You get that one wrong:

• Ozai's fire jets would NOT allow him to fly without the comet so he loses a huge mobility advantage that turns into a DISadvantage since opponents like Azula or Katara are extremely agile, fast and mobile
• Ozai's blasts will be casually blockable
• Under the comet, raw power is what matters. Without the comet, physicals and versatality mater a lot more and Ozai stays behind on some of those.

There's no particular indication that they intended Ozai to be leagues stronger than Bumi.

Many levels the least. He has all the hype in the world.
Alright, the air blast feat isn't impressive, but I'll give you the last one. It's pretty good actually.

You're entire argument revolves around the assumption that Ozai couldn't possibly have reacted to the redirected lighting, so therefore he must be incredibly slow. However, it's invalid for a number of reasons. For one thing, we don't know if he could have reacted or not. We've seen a number of times that characters can react after lighting has been fired, who says Ozai couldn't have done the same? Second, basically all of the scene is in slow-mo, so trying to measure seconds and stuff doesn't really work well at all. Third, it's not like failing to react to lighting redirection is that incredibly horrible. Azula was unable to react when Iroh redirected her lighting and kicked her off her ship, for example. Obviously not exactly the same, but just assuming it makes Ozai incredibly slow isn't right at all

Yeah, he isn't slow evidently but I am still saying that he couldn't have reacted. It's obvious. He was frozen for like 10 seconds and I laready showed you the timeline with the slow motion. I count the 3 seconds of slow motion as 1 under normal speed. Yeah, it's visible when the slow mo begins and when it ends. It took 3 seconds.
You said it yourself. Azula was fighting Zuko and Iroh suddenly came in. This was not a combat situation. And furthermore Azula would have possibly reacted there. Had she kicked Iroh, they would both get fried unless the bolt was fully out of his body.
At the end of the day, he completely failed to react to Zuko's redirection at the Eclipse, and that is something else that indicates how well he would do against Aang.

Yeah, well, for me Ozai without the comet would beat Toph due to lightning, he loses to Katara, he loses to Azula who can use all the lightning she wants at him, as well as redirect his own and he beats Zuko very high dif.

He learned lightning redirection after fighting Azula and Aang. His next main fight scene after learning redirection was in the Crystal Catacombs

This gif portrays them as going about the same speed

When it comes to firebending abilities everything remains the same. Power matters just as much under the comet as it does without the comet. It's not like the power gap between benders would be less without the comet than with the comet

"Azula would have possibly reacted there" Except she didn't react, and that's all that matters

@arcus1

He learned lightning redirection after fighting Azula and Aang. His next main fight scene after learning redirection was in the Crystal Catacombs

Which doesn't make a difference. The argument was weather Zuko was a rookie firebender when he learned the technique and he was. Doesn't matter if he trained afterwards. He got the technique before he trained in firebending overall.

This gif portrays them as going about the same speed

And other gifs portray them as being a lot faster. Watch the Yuyan Archers vs Aang scene or the Yuyan Archers training.

And the whole point is about Mai's arrows feats for Sokka and Katara, and they look d a lot faster than what Iroh dodged.

Honestly, what Iroh dodged didn't even seen to be at Mai's daggers' speed. Maybe there. Seems to me like the animators don't really care about speed that much, but we know that the gif above (which is the feat I'm talking about) is a lot faster than fire blasts.

And they are a lot faster than some of the fastest fire blasts and fireballs we've seen:

When it comes to firebending abilities everything remains the same. Power matters just as much under the comet as it does without the comet. It's not like the power gap between benders would be less without the comet than with the comet

It could be if without the comet Ozai cannot do things like these:

But even if he can, just with less output you cannot ignore the fact that Ozai CANNOT fly around without the comet and would be at a disadvantage when his opponents are a lot more mobile and agilt/faster than he is.

"Azula would have possibly reacted there" Except she didn't react, and that's all that matters

Yeah, I didn't mean that. My fault. I mean that there's a possibilty Azula DID react and she didn't try to break free fro the reason I already gave.

I am going with Ozai here although my heart says Toph

@anthp2000 said:

@arcus1

He learned lightning redirection after fighting Azula and Aang. His next main fight scene after learning redirection was in the Crystal Catacombs

Which doesn't make a difference. The argument was weather Zuko was a rookie firebender when he learned the technique and he was. Doesn't matter if he trained afterwards. He got the technique before he trained in firebending overall.

This gif portrays them as going about the same speed

And other gifs portray them as being a lot faster. Watch the Yuyan Archers vs Aang scene or the Yuyan Archers training.

And the whole point is about Mai's arrows feats for Sokka and Katara, and they look d a lot faster than what Iroh dodged.

Honestly, what Iroh dodged didn't even seen to be at Mai's daggers' speed. Maybe there. Seems to me like the animators don't really care about speed that much, but we know that the gif above (which is the feat I'm talking about) is a lot faster than fire blasts.

And they are a lot faster than some of the fastest fire blasts and fireballs we've seen:

When it comes to firebending abilities everything remains the same. Power matters just as much under the comet as it does without the comet. It's not like the power gap between benders would be less without the comet than with the comet

It could be if without the comet Ozai cannot do things like these:

But even if he can, just with less output you cannot ignore the fact that Ozai CANNOT fly around without the comet and would be at a disadvantage when his opponents are a lot more mobile and agilt/faster than he is.

"Azula would have possibly reacted there" Except she didn't react, and that's all that matters

Yeah, I didn't mean that. My fault. I mean that there's a possibilty Azula DID react and she didn't try to break free fro the reason I already gave.

And even before learning redirection he was better than Aang.

The gif I showed is a direct comparison between a fire blast and an arrow. You're going to need a gif directly comparing an arrow and a fire blast, showing the arrow outpacing the fire blast, to counter it. Anything else can just be considered discrepencies in animation, which doesn't hold up against a direct comparison. The idea of arrows being around the speed of a fire blast is consistent with how easily characters can arrow time.

Even if they're not the exact same speed precisely (which we'd have no way to measure), they're comparable enough that there's no reason Ozai shouldn't be able to replicate the feats that literally every other bender on his tier or even significantly lower can do. I mean, fodder earthbenders were able to form shields to defend against Mai's knives. Is Ozai slower than fodder now?

Of course Ozai has the same skills. Comet doesn't change skill, just power output.

That's pure speculation and kinda unfounded.

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Avatar_Extras_(Book_Three:_Fire)

In the Avatar Extras, the creators officially state that Ozai's the best firebender in the world (except for Aang in the Avatar state). We're never gonna get an actual fight between Ozai and Azula, but they made it abundantly clear that Ozai was superior to either of his kids. Agility's not enough to change this

Bending is all martial arts, and Ozai wouldn't be able to be the best firebender in the world if he didn't have the physical abilities to keep up just fine in a fight.

@arcus1

And even before learning redirection he was better than Aang.

Significally though? He was still fodder to Azula.

The gif I showed is a direct comparison between a fire blast and an arrow. You're going to need a gif directly comparing an arrow and a fire blast, showing the arrow outpacing the fire blast, to counter it. Anything else can just be considered discrepencies in animation, which doesn't hold up against a direct comparison. The idea of arrows being around the speed of a fire blast is consistent with how easily characters can arrow time.

Yeah, Mai's arrows are obviously faster than both the fireball and the Yuyan's arrow and that's the point of the argument.
We know Avatar characters have around peak human reflexes the least. Of course they can react to arrows easily. I am fairly sure that they would be able to react to bullets if there were any on the verse.

Even if they're not the exact same speed precisely (which we'd have no way to measure), they're comparable enough that there's no reason Ozai shouldn't be able to replicate the feats that literally every other bender on his tier or even significantly lower can do. I mean, fodder earthbenders were able to form shields to defend against Mai's knives. Is Ozai slower than fodder now?

Yeah, the Terra Team has very bad reflexes. They weren't able to touch Ty Lee. They can block Mai's daggers but can they block her arrows? I don't think so. Katara and Sokka both showed the reflexes to do so throughout the series.

Of course Ozai has the same skills. Comet doesn't change skill, just power output.

Sure, and these strognest attacks also take charging. Not that good in battle without the comet or height, which is why he cannot do that in battle and he never did.

That's pure speculation and kinda unfounded.

What's pure spectulation? Ozai's fire jets were above Azula's but they are not THAT better:

And this is what Azula can do at best without the comet:

Keep in mind that her jet propulsion in Book 3 was not as fast as this one and she still cannot fly around casually. At the very best his fire jets would be at Korra's level. Not good enough to fly around.

In the Avatar Extras, the creators officially state that Ozai's the best firebender in the world (except for Aang in the Avatar state). We're never gonna get an actual fight between Ozai and Azula, but they made it abundantly clear that Ozai was superior to either of his kids. Agility's not enough to change this

I know. I've read those before.
Agility, reflexes, arguably better durability and versatality are good enough. They are deciding factors. I am not acting as if Azula is a stronger firebender, but I am saying that the gap is not big enough to cancel out the physicals advantage. At least as of S&S where her raw power got 3 times better. And you also have the lightning advantage.

Bending is all martial arts, and Ozai wouldn't be able to be the best firebender in the world if he didn't have the physical abilities to keep up just fine in a fight.

Martial arts doesn't mean reflexes though. He obviously has good reflexes but not as good as those. And he has the physicals to keep up in a fight. Not saying that. Just that specifically Azula's current version has way too many overall advantages over him.

@anthp2000 said:

@arcus1

And even before learning redirection he was better than Aang.

Significally though? He was still fodder to Azula.

The gif I showed is a direct comparison between a fire blast and an arrow. You're going to need a gif directly comparing an arrow and a fire blast, showing the arrow outpacing the fire blast, to counter it. Anything else can just be considered discrepencies in animation, which doesn't hold up against a direct comparison. The idea of arrows being around the speed of a fire blast is consistent with how easily characters can arrow time.

Yeah, Mai's arrows are obviously faster than both the fireball and the Yuyan's arrow and that's the point of the argument.

We know Avatar characters have around peak human reflexes the least. Of course they can react to arrows easily. I am fairly sure that they would be able to react to bullets if there were any on the verse.

Even if they're not the exact same speed precisely (which we'd have no way to measure), they're comparable enough that there's no reason Ozai shouldn't be able to replicate the feats that literally every other bender on his tier or even significantly lower can do. I mean, fodder earthbenders were able to form shields to defend against Mai's knives. Is Ozai slower than fodder now?

Yeah, the Terra Team has very bad reflexes. They weren't able to touch Ty Lee. They can block Mai's daggers but can they block her arrows? I don't think so. Katara and Sokka both showed the reflexes to do so throughout the series.

Of course Ozai has the same skills. Comet doesn't change skill, just power output.

Sure, and these strognest attacks also take charging. Not that good in battle without the comet or height, which is why he cannot do that in battle and he never did.

That's pure speculation and kinda unfounded.

What's pure spectulation? Ozai's fire jets were above Azula's but they are not THAT better:

And this is what Azula can do at best without the comet:

Keep in mind that her jet propulsion in Book 3 was not as fast as this one and she still cannot fly around casually. At the very best his fire jets would be at Korra's level. Not good enough to fly around.

In the Avatar Extras, the creators officially state that Ozai's the best firebender in the world (except for Aang in the Avatar state). We're never gonna get an actual fight between Ozai and Azula, but they made it abundantly clear that Ozai was superior to either of his kids. Agility's not enough to change this

I know. I've read those before.

Agility, reflexes, arguably better durability and versatality are good enough. They are deciding factors. I am not acting as if Azula is a stronger firebender, but I am saying that the gap is not big enough to cancel out the physicals advantage. At least as of S&S where her raw power got 3 times better. And you also have the lightning advantage.

Bending is all martial arts, and Ozai wouldn't be able to be the best firebender in the world if he didn't have the physical abilities to keep up just fine in a fight.

Martial arts doesn't mean reflexes though. He obviously has good reflexes but not as good as those. And he has the physicals to keep up in a fight. Not saying that. Just that specifically Azula's current version has way too many overall advantages over him.

You said earlier that her knives were faster than her arrows...they're all about the same speed, all have the same effect

And yet you're saying Ozai couldn't possibly react to arrows

He doesn't need charged attacks to be stronger, that's the point. His base attacks are stronger than Azula/Zuko's. His charged attacks are stronger than Azula/Zuko's

Korra's fire jet feat during the finale is better than that feat from Azula. And as for Ozai and Azula, during the comet he showed significantly better speed, maneuverability, and height. He was legitimately flying

Who says her raw power got 3 times better in S&S? The only change was in her skill level. Yes there's that feat where Zuko and Azula each fire a large blast, but she's got feats just as powerful in the show (look at when her and Zuko both used explosive punches on the airship)

As for lighting, I still disagree about redirection. I'm pretty sure now that she didn't redirect the lighting, just that after having it redirected agaisnt her repeatedly by Zuko she learned to expect it and countered accordingly with a second blast. It's a very good showing, but if it were redirection it would have been clearer

@arcus1 said:

@anthp2000 said:

@arcus1

And even before learning redirection he was better than Aang.

Significally though? He was still fodder to Azula.

The gif I showed is a direct comparison between a fire blast and an arrow. You're going to need a gif directly comparing an arrow and a fire blast, showing the arrow outpacing the fire blast, to counter it. Anything else can just be considered discrepencies in animation, which doesn't hold up against a direct comparison. The idea of arrows being around the speed of a fire blast is consistent with how easily characters can arrow time.

Yeah, Mai's arrows are obviously faster than both the fireball and the Yuyan's arrow and that's the point of the argument.

We know Avatar characters have around peak human reflexes the least. Of course they can react to arrows easily. I am fairly sure that they would be able to react to bullets if there were any on the verse.

Even if they're not the exact same speed precisely (which we'd have no way to measure), they're comparable enough that there's no reason Ozai shouldn't be able to replicate the feats that literally every other bender on his tier or even significantly lower can do. I mean, fodder earthbenders were able to form shields to defend against Mai's knives. Is Ozai slower than fodder now?

Yeah, the Terra Team has very bad reflexes. They weren't able to touch Ty Lee. They can block Mai's daggers but can they block her arrows? I don't think so. Katara and Sokka both showed the reflexes to do so throughout the series.

Of course Ozai has the same skills. Comet doesn't change skill, just power output.

Sure, and these strognest attacks also take charging. Not that good in battle without the comet or height, which is why he cannot do that in battle and he never did.

That's pure speculation and kinda unfounded.

What's pure spectulation? Ozai's fire jets were above Azula's but they are not THAT better:

And this is what Azula can do at best without the comet:

Keep in mind that her jet propulsion in Book 3 was not as fast as this one and she still cannot fly around casually. At the very best his fire jets would be at Korra's level. Not good enough to fly around.

In the Avatar Extras, the creators officially state that Ozai's the best firebender in the world (except for Aang in the Avatar state). We're never gonna get an actual fight between Ozai and Azula, but they made it abundantly clear that Ozai was superior to either of his kids. Agility's not enough to change this

I know. I've read those before.

Agility, reflexes, arguably better durability and versatality are good enough. They are deciding factors. I am not acting as if Azula is a stronger firebender, but I am saying that the gap is not big enough to cancel out the physicals advantage. At least as of S&S where her raw power got 3 times better. And you also have the lightning advantage.

Bending is all martial arts, and Ozai wouldn't be able to be the best firebender in the world if he didn't have the physical abilities to keep up just fine in a fight.

Martial arts doesn't mean reflexes though. He obviously has good reflexes but not as good as those. And he has the physicals to keep up in a fight. Not saying that. Just that specifically Azula's current version has way too many overall advantages over him.

You said earlier that her knives were faster than her arrows...they're all about the same speed, all have the same effect

And yet you're saying Ozai couldn't possibly react to arrows

He doesn't need charged attacks to be stronger, that's the point. His base attacks are stronger than Azula/Zuko's. His charged attacks are stronger than Azula/Zuko's

Korra's fire jet feat during the finale is better than that feat from Azula. And as for Ozai and Azula, during the comet he showed significantly better speed, maneuverability, and height. He was legitimately flying

Who says her raw power got 3 times better in S&S? The only change was in her skill level. Yes there's that feat where Zuko and Azula each fire a large blast, but she's got feats just as powerful in the show (look at when her and Zuko both used explosive punches on the airship)

As for lighting, I still disagree about redirection. I'm pretty sure now that she didn't redirect the lighting, just that after having it redirected agaisnt her repeatedly by Zuko she learned to expect it and countered accordingly with a second blast. It's a very good showing, but if it were redirection it would have been clearer

I never said that they are faster than her arrows.
She thorws her knives barehanded but she fires the arrows from a shooter and thus they are faster.

He CAN react to arrows like the 95% of named Avatar characters. Depnds on the ditance. But no way can he replicate such feats like Zuko's arrow timing or Azula point blank sword.

Yeah, I would post pics but his base attacks were not bigger by a large margin. They were barely/slightly bigger. And they wouldn't be ANY bigger than Azula/Zuko's blast in S&S.

I know it is. Never said it wasn't, and that's why I gave Ozai the possibilty to have that good fire jets, but they still don't let him fly.

He wasn't really like Zaheer. I mean, he cannot just fly without landing somewhere for a break. And Azula doesn't have showings of speed, maneuverability, and height simply because she didn't need to use it like that. I am not saying that she has just as good fire jets, but they aren't far away.

The difference is that this blast was both raw power and significally waaaay bigger size than her blasts from the show.

I do not agree about that though. If she just fired a bolt at him faster, why wouldn't she do that before? It's that simple and she had instant lightning before S&S. She found a very reliable way to counter the technique. By learning it herself.

Ozai. But Toph makes him work for it

Are there enough non-comet feats for Ozai to suggest the outcome of this one way or the other? I only remember him partly-off-screen punking Zuko, but i could be forgetting something, or perhaps there are feats in the comics i'm unaware of. As it stands i don't think it can be confirmed either way, but i would lean towards Toph due to number of feats, although you'd think Ozai just based on reputation.

@arcus1: aang was a crap fire bender? Aang stalemating an amped ozai's fire blasts three times says otherwise...

@kbroskywalker: He was barely able to hold off a couple of them... He is crap in firebending...

You say amped Ozai like Aang wasn't also amped...

And Aang didn't stalemate Ozai three times. One time was Ozai blocking his attack, another time he sorta blocked Ozai but still got forced backwards

@arcus1: he only got forced backwards when ozai outmanuvered him, he was never overpowered pre lightning

Assuming that Ozai>Azula by a decent margin, he wins. However, he's almost entirely lacking in feats, so by feats, Toph takes it.

I don't think that he is a decent margin above current Azula, but that's all just speculating.

By feats could almost each competent bender beat him(although his lightning is dangerous), i think he is simply a very bad choice for battles(without comet).

Well by hype likely Ozai, by feats clearly Toph.

@katrurius17:

The reason I think that Ozai is above current Azula in pure fire is that EOS Zuko (roughly equal to series Azula) was quite confident that no one but Iroh stood a chance, implying that Ozai was above him by a wide margin. Azula has improved by a fair margin as of Smoke and Shadow, but most of the improvements have been in fields like instant lightning or H2H, not pure firebending, which has consistently destroyed earth defenses.

@mial42: Oh i also think he is still a bit above her, but not by a decent margin anymore(if we have the same definition).

And well i still think he is a bad choice for battles :)

@katrurius17:

Agreed.