Tobirama Senju vs Itachi Uchiha

@quantum-savage: I agree ET won't play a parte in this fight, I just mentioned it because you said Itachi edges Tobirama in jutsus.

Regarding speed, I still think Tobirama is remarkably faster.

I respect that but I feel in terms of combat speed(leaving out teleportation/flying raijin) Itachi edges him out but we'd never fully know since we never see both of them on the same battlefield

Yeah I mean Itachi knows some different ways to put Genjutsu, he must more knowledgable and know more jutsu than Tobirama who created pretty much every jutsu and forbidden jutsu right?

Itachi is in a completely different league from Izuna, so don't use him as proof that Tobirama wins.

it's a tie.

Tobirama wins. He uses water elements and water>fire. Also he is too fast for itachi to even counter attack.

@victorgnome: It's a tie -_- really ?

tobirama.

Itachi should win fairly easily. We assume they are both on guard the whole fight. Izuna clearly died because he wasn't.

Amaterasu > any element. Itachi's speed is 5/5 in the databook

Tobirama

Dont underestimate the second hokage

It's so annoying seeing these itachi fanboys. Itachi admitted himself he would lose/stalemate jiraiya.

Tobirama>Jiraiya Anyday of the week.

Itachi if he keep's his distance, unless it goes into melee in which case Itachi dies horribly.

When he was seriously sick and also needed an excuse not to stay and kill one of the main defenses of the hidden leaf at the time? He couldn't just tell Kisame "We need to leave. Low key I don't want to capture Naruto at all."

@gluestick: either way I still put Jiraiya above itachi, tobirama has years of experience fighting the uchiha, his mastery over water style is way to much for itachi to handle.

genjutsu is always the answer for no-knowledge battles

I agree that Jiraiya is actually stronger than Itachi . But what feats do Tobirama has that makes you think he is stronger than Jiraiya especially when Jiraiya goes Sage Mode ? Tobirama has years of experience fighting the uchiha ? Yet he got fodderized by madara UCHIHA . Mastery over water style ? Nothing Itachi can't dodge or counter . Just like how old hiruzen was able to do so , itachi will be able to do so as well . You have not considered these factors of itachi . How will tobirama escape a genjutsu ? And you realise that Itachi has sharingan which gives him pre cognition right ? So he will definitely be able to see Tobirama coming . Also , what damage output has tobirama ever done to prove he can destroy or even damage Susanoo ? Theres also amaterasu to counter tobiramas great water techniques . Tobirama might be impressive but Itachi has a counter for most of his moves . As for speed , pre cognition will give itachi a heads up on where his opponent will be .

@kcminato: well tobirama trained hiruzen, hiriuzen trained jiraiya. That's a clear indication right there. Fodderize. Tobirama was defeated because Madara was alive and had rinnegan while Tobirama was edo and weakened. So that argument makes zero sense. If tobirama was alive and Madara didn't have rinnegan he'd have a chance at defeating Madara. Madara is above itachi in every aspect maybe other than genjutsu. I'm sorry but itachi loses. He uses Flying Rajin FTW.

LMAO . According to your flawed logic , Master > Student always ? Its clear that the student can surpass the master . Look at naruto and kakashi , sasuke and orochimaru and jiraiya and naruto . Show me proof that edo weakens ones true self . I thought so at first but i could find no evidence that edo weakens one. Instead it makes the edo body stronger with unlimited chakra which is how itachi could spam amaterasu so many times . Anyway my point was that just because you have experience in fighting an uchiha , doesnt instantly give you the win -_-. Your argument so far has made no sense either . LOL AT THAT . Tobirama having a chance of defeating Madara ? If you actually think so , we are done with this debate . I cant take anyone seriously if they think tobirama has a chance at defeating madara . Have you forgotten perfect susanoo ? Whats tobirama going to do against madaras perfect susnaoo? Yes its clear madara > Itachi . Have you not read my counter to flying raijin ? With sharingan , Itachi can predict movements with ease . With that being said , flying raijin pose little threat to itachi . Even that itachi can easily genjutsu tobirama at the start of the battle just like how he starts every other battle against an opponent . Tobirama has never shown to be able to counter genjutsu . So whats tobirama going to do when he gets caught in a genjutsu ?

So Being the fact that tobirama defeated Izuna who was in fact on the same level as his brother, means Tobirama can't defeat madara? You itachi fanboys seriously are annoying and try and try to prove that he's so great. Yes he's a powerful shinobi but he can't defeat the second hokage like you said Madara>itachi. And tobirama is in league with Madara. Yes I don't recall where it was stated but edo tensei aren't complete and weakened. Why do you think when Madara was revived he was MUCH stronger. Just killed your argument right there. Edos are weaker, and he had rinnegan, that's how he was able to defeat tobirama so easily.

Itachi stomps. He is way above Tobirama its not funny. Tobirama has never faced an Uchiha with a genjutsu far superior that of most from the clan. Also what feats does he have than can put itachi in his place? LOL Nobody except Hashirama from the Senju clan can beat Itachi. He wins 10/10 times

Izuna was no where near hinted at being near madaras level . It was extremely clear that madara was the superior sibling just like how much stronger hashirama is than tobirama . I know izuna is one of the most powerful uchiha but still that does not make him stronger than madara or even itachi with such little feats . Here in comic vine we go by feats and izuna has almost close to none . "itachi fanboys" I just go by reasoning , logic and feats . You have yet to counter my points on how itachi can defeat tobirama . Its clear we have a tobirama fanboy over here . Whoever said itachi cant defeat tobirama . Tobirama is no where the league of madara . Show me feats to back up your statement of tobirama being near madaras level . That was orochimarus failed edo tensei just like his edo tensei of the first and second hokage . Sage kabuto on the other hand had perfect edo tenseis and these edo even had unlimited chakra and impressive regenerative abilities . MUCH stronger ? Not really . show me feats of alive madara > edo madara . Alive madara had trouble and could hardly use susanoo . The only reason madara wanted to be "alive " was so that he could become the ten tails jinchuriki . Do you realise that sage kabuto had made edo madara to be in his prime and much better? Apparently not . Edos are definitely not weaker lmao . Show me evidence dont just be all talk . Show me a video / scan where someone says that EDO TENSEI is weaker than their actual bodies . Dont just type in and tell me your assumptions . You still have yet to counter me on itachis genjutsu and precog ... hmmmm are you simply ignoring it because you have no counter for my counters ? I wonder whos the fanboy here who talks but doesnt give evidence and give counter arguments to my counters

Alive madara had trouble??? Lmao he was only struggling with susanno because he didn't have his eyes after being reincarnated lmao. Yes it was stated that izuna was his brothers equal, I'm not looking for it so don't bother trust me I won't just make us statements. Orochimaru and tobirama both said that the hokage were reincarnated to almost their peak abilities, ALMOST. You can't go based off of soley feats, I'm sorry especially with characters like tobirama who has such little feats. But your just disregarding the feat of him killing izuna ,completely countering his sharingan. Genjutsu would probably be a non factor Tobirama would be too fast and kill itachi before he knows it.

At this rate , anything you say in this debate is true then ? "Izuna is more powerful than the sage of six paths himself Yes it was stated that izuna was stronger than sosp Im sorry im not looking for it so dont bother trust me i wont just make us statements ..." Yea I'm so done debating with a guy who doesnt provide evidence and have no reliance of anything what so ever . Best debater ever 10/10 . I ask you for evidence and you dont give me anything and claim that its true . Good debating skills m8. Im so done debating with these type of people lmao. Get off of comic vine if you dont intend to debate properly and just intend to make your own statements with no backup . They were talking about the past edo tenseis the one orochimaru did were close to perfect as orochimaru was telling sasuke . Scans to show orochimaru were referring to the current edos ? Yea i doubt you'll show me anything anyways lolol . "YOU CANT GO BASED OFF OF SOLEY FEATS " LOL ..... Then what shall i go based off ? Statements and guessings ? Want me to make up my own statements like you do ? No thank you . I'll stick to feats and proper showings of what tobirama can actually really do . And these little feats dont make him that impressive at all . Lets take pain for example he showed up as long as tobirama yet his feats were impressive unlike tobirama who is all hype . That is clearly nothing . Izuna was no where stated to be near madara ( current) level . "disregard" ? Theres nothing for me to regard izuna as at all . You claim izuna to be some type of god . Well im sorry to break it to you but if you want to play this game i could as well . Izuna was the pride and a strong uchiha , in his battle against tobirama , izuna clearly felt superior and stronger and thus did not see flying raijin coming because of his arrogance and pride . That was the only reason why izuna dropped his guard and died to tobirama . Itachi on the other hand is always observant and fights his opponents from a far while strategising their next move . Just because Tobirama > Izuna and you some how think Izuna > Itachi , that doesnt mean tobirama will surely win itachi . Stop with your flawed ABC logic . Even if izuna was stronger than itachi , just because tobirama beat him , doesn't prove tobirama can beat itachi . There are too many underlying important and significant factors that we cannot ignore .

Im done debating with you lmao dont bother replying if you insist on keeping to your logic and not backing up your statements . pece

@kcminato: lol you itachi fanboys are restless lmao but yeah tobirama would utterly kill itachi in the end.

@kcminato: seriously at this point your ignorance isn't even funny anymore. If can't debate don't debate on comic vine anymore? Oh so feats is the main thing to go based of off battle? So itachi would kill the sage of six paths? Itachi has more feats right?' Fool izuna was not arrogant it was a strategy put up by tobirama to counter the sharingan and he killed izuna literally one shorted him. Idk how in the bell you're still arguing seeing as though Jiraiya is below tobirama in jutsu and strength and itach ADMITTED he'd lose to him! Himself.

@chris-sama: To be fair Izuna was bragging about how great he was when he died, and Itachi may have said Jiraiya would beat him as an excuse not to capture Naruto

@chris-sama said:

Misleading. EMS Madara (what most peope will think of) >>> MS Madara. Healthy Itachi probably would have been around their skill level as they are in that scan

@gluestick: lmao enough of the excuses I just posted a scan of it being stated izuna and Madara were equals, he was great. Tobirama just strategies, and countered the sharingan and killed him like he would do with itachi.

@gluestick: I can't believe you just said that lol. This itachi hype is insane misleading?!?!? How is it misleading it's the friggin manga....

@chris-sama: He's not equal to any version of Madara that we have feats for

@gluestick: Ugh... I'm done you guys are dense lol he's probably not equal now, because ya know he's dead and all but I'm done.

@chris-sama: Are you serious? I can't believe you're calling others out on not being able to debate. You think Izuna = EMS Madara?

@gluestick: When did I say izuna equals EMS Madara... He wanted scans of saying izuna was equal to Madara, I post scans and it's still not good enough. we really don't know, but obviously izuna would've been either stronger or equal to Madara.

To be perfectly fair Madara used Izuna's eyes against Hashirama and canonically Izuna awoken the first Mangekyou IIRC, Madara captured 100% Kurama with his 3 tomoe. It'd be farfetch'd to say his Genjutsu wasn't a factor, this feat alone is above anything Itatchi has accomplished. Tobi/Hash have fought Uchiha before It's simply incorrect to argue that Itatchi would win because he has Genjutsu also.

@gluestick: And you do realize if izuna lived he would've surpassed Madara, Madara only achieved EMS through izunas death. At that point madaras sharingan was rendered useless and needed his brothers eyes. If izuna survived and lived he'd be stronger.

@chris-sama: That scan does not come close to proving Izuna/MS Madara > Itachi. Also about Izuna not being arrogant when he died...

Starts at arrogance. Itachi would never underestimate or let his guard down like this

This doesn't make much sense. If he got Madara's eyes yeah he'd probably be about EMS Madara level, but he didn't and when Tobirama fought him he was much weaker than EMS Madara

@gluestick: listen how is itachi supposed to stop tobirama, the man was planning/strategizing and excecuting perfect feats against juubito on the fly. The ten tails jinchuiriki couldn't even catch his fluting Rajin tag and you think itachi would? Izuna with MS couldn't catch his Flying Rajin. Tobirama was the fastest before Minato. Itachi would not catch him. He'd get tagged then beheaded I admit itach is probably the smartest after tobirama and he is the greatest genjutsu user but he's not going to be able to defeat tobirama. His chakra reserves/Speed outclass itachi.

@gluestick: either way he'd be stronger at that point madaras eyes were going out which means he wouldn't be as strong meanwhile izuna would surpass his brother. Understand?

Healthy sharingan>Going blind.

@chris-sama: Notice how much stronger Sasuke was after he transplanted Itachi's eyes and got EMS. If Itachi decided to take Sasuke's eyes he'd be ridiculously strong too.

@darkraiden: Itachi having high end speed feats? He has lightning quick reaction times, but his speed is not top tier. His stamina is also lower.

Tobirama takes 7/10 in a great fight

@gluestick: He really wasn't that much stronger until he received rinnesharigan. Even with EMS He was still getting tagged/nearly killed by raikage and danzo and easily almost killed by Madara.

Tobirama's flying raijin isn't nearly as good as Minato's. People are acting like they're the same thing but Minato was way better at using it offensively. Itachi was an equally amazing strategist. Mid fight against Sasuke he had to plan out how to make Sasuke think he earned the win while at the same time not dying before he sealed Orochimaru and transfered MS to Sasuke. Tobirama planning against Juubito was impressive but he wasn't doing all the fighting and didn't need to worry about dying. Chakra reserves he beats Itachi in that's true

Cept Madara had to use Izuna's eyes against Hash after he got pwned tbh.

The 3rd fastest character in the series, Izanagi user (I disagree about this being a near death), and EMS/single rinnegan Madara

@gluestick: Minato did perfect the flying rajin but tobirama wasn't far off. Itachi would be exhausted trying to keep up with tobirama. His chakra reserves would be depleted immensely. And tobirama would finish him. And no he wasn't doing all the fighting but I'm sure without tobirama planning on the fly they would've been killed by juubito.

@gluestick: if Karin/Gaara wasn't there sasuke would've died both times. Even Tobi saved him from The Onoki.

@gluestick: Right so let me break it down. Sasuke with EMS was easily getting roflstomped by raikage and being tagged by danzo. Like I said almost died without help from an outside source. Tobirama was faster than raikage. What makes you think itachi with MS would keep up with tobirama when sasuke with EMS couldn't even keep up with raikage?? Or stop danzo alone? And you now if Karin wasn't there sasuke would be dead at that point.

Healthy Itachi is faster than Sasuke. You could make a case for both Raikage and Danzo beating Tobirama based on both feats and techniques (I'd rather not since we're already somewhat off topic but you probably know how it would play out). Raikage is very nearly as fast as both Tobirama and Minato. Sasuke pretty much did stop Danzo alone. Karin was Danzo's desperate human shield and Tobi took care of his bodyguards and stopped his pathetic attempt to run away.