Tobirama Senju vs Itachi Uchiha

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The_New_Avenger

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#101  Edited By The_New_Avenger

@thevivas: Yes he does, Lord 2nd knows all the Uchiha tricks while Itachi has no clue what Lord 2nd can do.

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Insertnewname

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@the_new_avenger: Yea I would agree. Altough the 3rd was really disappointing, he would manage 2 win.. The others are more above Itachi than him.

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The_New_Avenger

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@iamnot: Lol, thats because he was way past his prime when we got to see him in action, he was said to be the Strongest of all.

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TheVivas

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#104  Edited By TheVivas

@the_new_avenger: So Tobirama knows about Amaterasu? Tsukuyomi? Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade? Finger genjutsu?

And what do you mean? Itachi, one of the smartest ninjas on Konoha, doesn't know anything about one of his former Kages?

Get real.

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The_New_Avenger

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@thevivas: You do know that Lord 2nd knows all Jutsu ( Save Blood line traits) that hail form the Leaf? right? and yes he's aware of the Amatrasu and Tsukuyomi, maybe not the other two, but he still trumps Itachi.

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TheVivas

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@the_new_avenger: Yeah........Orochimaru was talking about the Third Hokage, not the Second.

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Insertnewname

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#107  Edited By Insertnewname

@thevivas:

Yea. I doubt he is stronger than them tho. I think he is very slightly better than 4rd, but would have been surpassed if he lived longer..

@thevivas:

Bro I think how Tobi fears the Uchihas, he sure was encouraged to learn about their secrets and techniques..

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The_New_Avenger

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@thevivas: he was? Well still doesn't matter Tobirama has created some the best Jutsu used to this day, and who has Itachi beaten that's even close to Kage level?

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TheVivas

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@the_new_avenger: Yes he was. Hiruzen was called the Professor for that very reason. Shadow Clone jutsu, Flying Thunder God, and Edo Tensei aren't "some of the best jutsu used to this day".

Here's a better question: who has Tobirama defeated that actually has manga feats?

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TheVivas

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@iamnot: Tobirama doesn't "fear" the Uchihas. And he has no way of knowing about any of Itachi's relics.

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Insertnewname

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#111  Edited By Insertnewname

@thevivas: chill.. well.. I know.. I was talking about MS jutsus in general..

Well at least he trys to suppress them, so.. He recognizes their power and.. actually.. Isn't that called fear? Or I would at least say he is making his mind about what possibly could happen to the village..

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The_New_Avenger

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@thevivas: It's True they manga never really focuses on the 2nd Hokage, yet in the War arc he was a key component helping The Alliance against both Madara and Jubbito, yet Itachi wasnt able to Defeat Kabuto and survive with the help of Sasuke? And in Itachi's own words he is the Lesser when it comes to him and the Sannin with back up from Kisme. Now i ask what is it Itachi could do to win?

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TheVivas

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@iamnot: Every MS user gets a different ability. Obito got Kamui, Itachi Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, Sasuke Enton, etc. You can't have basic knowledge on MS justus in general because everyone gets a different one.

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Insertnewname

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@the_new_avenger:

I remember- and I hate the part in where itachi holds back kisame in order to prevent a confrontation..

It's so stupid. Itachi alone would have beaten him.

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Insertnewname

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@thevivas: Itachi, Sasuke and Madara got Susanoo and Amataratsu and I think I can remember that Itachi wanted Saske to get the Tsukoyomi too in order to become stronger..

Just reread, Enton is the same.. Or you could say Amateratsu is an enton jutsu. So in the end, Obito n Shusui are the only non-normals..

What makes sense. There was an order how you gain the MS abilities. On one eye amateratsu, on the other tsuke, and on both susanoo as the top.

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TheVivas

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@the_new_avenger:

yet Itachi wasnt able to Defeat Kabuto and survive with the help of Sasuke?

That's because Itachi wasn't trying to "kill" Kabuto, he was trying to make him stop the Edo Tensei jutsu. Get your facts straight. And Kabuto prepared his own jutsu to specifically counter him.

And in Itachi's own words he is the Lesser when it comes to him and the Sannin with back up from Kisme.

Statements are just statements unless backed up by feats, and by feats, Itachi could probably beat Jiraiya by himself.

Now i ask what is it Itachi could do to win?

How about use weapons Tobirama has never seen before?

No Caption Provided

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Or hit him with his eye powers, like Tsukuyomi:

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Or Amaterasu:

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Which burned through Nagato's endless summon in a matter of seconds:

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The_New_Avenger

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@thevivas: The only thing on here that's not countered by FTG and Clones is the Genjutsu which wont land becasue he know's good and well that the Uchiha's are good with Genjutsu. Itachi's only hope would be Genjutsu victory which has only worked how many times was it once? against a cocky kakashi? and now that Itachi has spent all his precious small amount of chakra hitting clones and missing a teleporting 2nd he's blind, sick, and screwed.

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TheVivas

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#118  Edited By TheVivas

@iamnot:

Itachi, Sasuke and Madara got Susanoo and Amataratsu

No, only Itachi got Amaterasu. Madara never had it and the only reason Sasuke has it is because Itachi transfered it to him:

No Caption Provided

I think I can remember that Itachi wanted Saske to get the Tsukoyomi too in order to become stronger..

Sasuke has never used Tsukuyomi.

Just reread, Enton is the same.. Or you could say Amateratsu is an enton jutsu. So in the end, Obito n Shusui are the only non-normals..

No, Sasuke's ability is that he can shape his Amaterasu to whatever he needs:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Obito and Shisui aren't "non-normals", they just never achieved EMS (in Obito's case) or got enough screen time (in Shisui's case).

What makes sense. There was an order how you gain the MS abilities. On one eye amateratsu, on the other tsuke, and on both susanoo as the top.

That's not how it works. Madaa never got Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, yet was able to complete his Susanoo into Perfect Susanoo. Itachi had both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, yet could never reach a perfected version of Susanoo. Obito never even achieved Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, and so on and so on.

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TheVivas

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@the_new_avenger:

The only thing on here that's not countered by FTG and Clones is the Genjutsu which wont land becasue he know's good and well that the Uchiha's are good with Genjutsu.

So did Naruto the second time he fought Itachi, didn't help him.

Itachi's only hope would be Genjutsu victory which has only worked how many times was it once? against a cocky kakashi?

Let's count, shall we?

Defeats Deidara with it:

Loading Video...

Defeats Orochimaru with it:

Loading Video...

And defeated Kabuto with it:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

So yeah, not just once.

and now that Itachi has spent all his precious small amount of chakra hitting clones and missing a teleporting 2nd he's blind, sick, and screwed.

Um no. Itachi isn't going to lose all of his chakra. Actually, how do you know Tobirama doesn't have low chakra levels? The only times we've ever seen him is when he was an Edo, pretty much meaning limitless chakra. DO you have proof he won;t run low on chakra after using FTG to evade a few jutsus? Or ineffectively using Water style against Itachi?

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Insertnewname

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#120  Edited By Insertnewname

@thevivas:

Lol?

Dude..

Itachi got him a jutsu to set off ama automatically when he sees obitos sharingan..

I didn't mean that.. I meant in a way they got abilities noone else possesses.

Well Itachi said he awoke susanoo by mastering ame and tsuke, soo..

I start to believe that each of your eyes got a technique so when you are done mastering them, you obtain the third.

In this case, everyone got Susanoo.

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TheVivas

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@iamnot:

Itachi got him a jutsu to set off ama automatically when he sees obitos sharingan..

He transferred his Amaterasu powers to Sasuke. Why do you think Sasuke can use Amaterasu now?

I didn't mean that.. I meant in a way they got abilities noone else possesses.

Every MS user gets abilities no one else possesses.

Well Itachi said he awoke susanoo by mastering ame and tsuke, soo..

And? Neither Obito or Kakashi could use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, yet when Kakashi received both Sharingans, he awakened Perfect Susanoo:

No Caption Provided

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The_New_Avenger

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@thevivas said:

@the_new_avenger:

The only thing on here that's not countered by FTG and Clones is the Genjutsu which wont land becasue he know's good and well that the Uchiha's are good with Genjutsu.

So did Naruto the second time he fought Itachi, didn't help him.

Naruto broke out of that like it was nothing, and he's one of the dumbest Characters there is.....

Itachi's only hope would be Genjutsu victory which has only worked how many times was it once? against a cocky kakashi?

Let's count, shall we?

Defeats Deidara with it:

Loading Video...

This is from a game and it's not a legit feat...^

Defeats Orochimaru with it:

Loading Video...

This is a good feat, Yet the 2nd is smarter and he thinks a hell of a lot faster than both Oro and Itachi, the 2nd thinks so fast in fact he was able to create a new jutsu on the go while fighting jubbito someone who competely out classes Itachi.

And defeated Kabuto with it:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

So yeah, not just once.

and now that Itachi has spent all his precious small amount of chakra hitting clones and missing a teleporting 2nd he's blind, sick, and screwed.

Um no. Itachi isn't going to lose all of his chakra. Actually, how do you know Tobirama doesn't have low chakra levels? The only times we've ever seen him is when he was an Edo, pretty much meaning limitless chakra. DO you have proof he won;t run low on chakra after using FTG to evade a few jutsus? Or ineffectively using Water style against Itachi?

The Kabuto feat is also a good feat, except if that was an alive itachi he would have died multiple times that fight and went blind way before the fight ended. And yes Itachi would lose all his Chakra can you show me any feats where Itachi doesn't feel the effects of Exhaustion after using his MS? The 2nd is a senju one of the things they are known for is there massive chakra reserves.

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Other than his MS Itachi doesn't have much working for him, and he cant keep using his MS long enough to beat the 2nd. Itachi can be hit and he can be killed, he isn't as strong as everyone says he is and once is precious little MS is out of juice he's dead.

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Tobirama in a tough fight.

Possibly a stalemate.

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Insertnewname

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@thevivas:

No he did not. He set a trap for tobi.

(Tensha Fūin: Amaterasu, look it up)

@other points: Reread the post you responded to. I added smth

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@the_new_avenger:

Yo ^^ uhm Deidara's defeat is legit, it's in the manga.

And the second might be slightly smarter than these guys, not a lot.. :P Don't loose your calmness, it's the internet. .. :)

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The_New_Avenger

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@iamnot: my bad it is in the Manga but, thats Deidara with zero feats before he joined the Akatsuki.

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The_New_Avenger

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@iamnot: He's a good margin smarter, he created Edo tensi, FTG, Shadow clones, and he can create jutsu on the go.

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Insertnewname

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@the_new_avenger: Well he was at least famous in his village.. So that's something^^

Well.. No. But that's not the point here anyways so I won't explain that until someone wants me to ^_^

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TheVivas

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@the_new_avenger:

Naruto broke out of that like it was nothing, and he's one of the dumbest Characters there is.....

No he didn't. He had to have Sakura and Chiyo break him out.

This is from a game and it's not a legit feat...^

No it's not, it's from the manga.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Get your facts straight.

This is a good feat, Yet the 2nd is smarter and he thinks a hell of a lot faster than both Oro and Itachi, the 2nd thinks so fast in fact he was able to create a new jutsu on the go while fighting jubbito someone who competely out classes Itachi.

And what jutsu was that, hmm?

And yes Itachi would lose all his Chakra can you show me any feats where Itachi doesn't feel the effects of Exhaustion after using his MS? The 2nd is a senju one of the things they are known for is there massive chakra reserves.

Nope, because almost every time he used his MS abilities, he was already tired and/or already dieing. Zetsu even remarks about it:

No Caption Provided

Not to mention he was losing his eyesight as well. So it's no wonder he would feel exhaustion after using those techniques if he's already dieing and losing his eyesight.

Other than his MS Itachi doesn't have much working for him, and he cant keep using his MS long enough to beat the 2nd. Itachi can be hit and he can be killed, he isn't as strong as everyone says he is and once is precious little MS is out of juice he's dead.

And the Second can be hit by Genjutsu and then killed. Or he can be hit after failing to get through Susanoo and be killed.

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TheVivas

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@iamnot said:

@thevivas:

No he did not. He set a trap for tobi.

(Tensha Fūin: Amaterasu, look it up)

@other points: Reread the post you responded to. I added smth

I know he set a trap for Tobi. He set it up and transferred Amaterasu. That's why Sasuke can use it himself.

As for your other points, no that's wrong too. Kakashi didn't Master both Kamui abilities before getting Perfect Susanoo. He literally received both Sharingans, created Perfect Susanoo, then found out he can use the phasing abilities of Kamui like Obito did while fighting with Perfect Susanoo.

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Insertnewname

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@thevivas:

You think you can transfer a whole technique? That sounds.. Not reasonable.

However.. How can you say I am wrong with the little amount of information we as readers can gather out of mangas? Maybe he did notice he got something new besides Kamui, but it was simply off-panal/his thoughts weren't shown in the book.. Or maybe he did master the second technique in mere sec before using his susanoo the first time? If he can use it as good as Obito in his first fight with his new ability, that might have happened.

Going 2 sleep. Good night.. And lol, nice discussion we got. hehe

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The_New_Avenger

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@thevivas: He made a jutsu where he uses a few exploding Paper slips, and they constantly summon more paper slips making an endless explosion that increases with time as the slips keep multiplying

No Caption Provided

And this scan you showed me with Itachi losing his eye sight against a much weaker Sasuke only helps my case. Itachi is going to be forced into Susano once he gets hit with Contentious explosion jutsu, he wont have a choice because if he doesn't he would die. And once in Suasuno he's eye sight will be even worse than normal. And no you cant say" Oh this is healthy Itachi". because it would be like me saying, Lord 2nd uses Edo tensi on Lord 1st then Itachi would no chance. Remeber what you said Feats are what counts not Statements, and no matter how hard you try you wont find any feats with a healthy Itachi, because for 99% of the show he was sick he couldn't even handle his own MS. Kakashi who has arguably just as bad of a Chakra reserve as Itachi can spam is MS and feel the effects like Itachi.

No Caption Provided

How will Itachi beat a man who is sending countless bombs, clones, and Tele attacks at him? When he couldn't even see Sasuke's attack?

And since Itachi can barley see that makes getting the FTG tag on him so much easier. And once that's on Itachi's Mirror can't even stop his death.

Also i would like to see Itachi's Genjutsu Defense, Like you said no Statements only Feat, if you remember correctly Lord 1st and Lord 2nd used a genjutsu called Bringer of Darkness which takes away all your senses leaving you in a black void, making it really easy to tag your target. Yes Itachi has a strong Genjutsu offense but Defense=/=Offense.

No Caption Provided

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TheVivas

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#133  Edited By TheVivas

@iamnot:

You think you can transfer a whole technique? That sounds.. Not reasonable.

Unreasonable? Hardly. We're talking about a universe that has techniques that allow a person to:

  • bring the deceased back to life as zombies and have those zombies use all the jutsus they could during the time they were alive
  • trap another person's mind in torture for 72 hours inside a "dreamworld", yet have only a few seconds pass by in the real world
  • erase all damage done to a person in the span of a minute
  • create inextinguishable fire that burns other fire, can't be put out by water or normal means, and doesn't stop until it's target has been burned to ash (or a week passes)
  • open a third eye on their forehead, cast the reflection of that eye on the moon, and then put the whole populace of the world into an illusion
  • place their hand on another person's eye and completely regrow an eyeball
  • teleport from one place to another just by use of markings

And so on and so on.

However.. How can you say I am wrong with the little amount of information we as readers can gather out of mangas? Maybe he didnotice he got something new besides Kamui, but it was simply off-panal/his thoughts weren't shown in the book.. Or maybe he did master the second technique in mere sec before using his susanoo the first time? If he can use it as good as Obito in his first fight with his new ability, that might have happened.

That's all conjecture. Kakashi had never used the phasing ability of Kamui, so he couldn't have mastered it. Yet he was able to manifest a Perfect version of Susanoo nonetheless.

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@the_new_avenger:

He made a jutsu where he uses a few exploding Paper slips, and they constantly summon more paper slips making an endless explosion that increases with time as the slips keep multiplying

He didn't make that up on the fly, he had already created it. It was just his first time using it as an Edo himself.

No Caption Provided

And this scan you showed me with Itachi losing his eye sight against a much weaker Sasuke only helps my case. Itachi is going to be forced into Susano once he gets hit with Contentious explosion jutsu, he wont have a choice because if he doesn't he would die

Lol no. Tobirama can only use that as an Edo Tensei.

And once in Suasuno he's eye sight will be even worse than normal. And no you cant say" Oh this is healthy Itachi". because it would be like me saying, Lord 2nd uses Edo tensi on Lord 1st then Itachi would no chance.

For starters, that analogy is terrible. Secondly, Itachi was legit just sitting in his Susanoo while walking towards Sasuke after Kirin. You act like he's going to die if he holds his Susanoo for more than 20 seconds.

Remeber what you said Feats are what counts not Statements, and no matter how hard you try you wont find any feats with a healthy Itachi, because for 99% of the show he was sick he couldn't even handle his own MS. Kakashi who has arguably just as bad of a Chakra reserve as Itachi can spam is MS and feel the effects like Itachi.

Okay then. Go ahead and show me non-Edo feats of Tobirama. I'll wait.

How will Itachi beat a man who is sending countless bombs, clones, and Tele attacks at him? When he couldn't even see Sasuke's attack?

He saw Sasuke's attack just fine, stop trying to lowball. He also activated his Susanoo in time to protect himself against Kirin.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Also i would like to see Itachi's Genjutsu Defense, Like you said no Statements only Feat, if you remember correctly Lord 1st and Lord 2nd used a genjutsu called Bringer of Darkness which takes away all your senses leaving you in a black void, making it really easy to tag your target. Yes Itachi has a strong Genjutsu offense but Defense=/=Offense.

Tobirama never used Genjutsu in canon. Hashirama was the one who used it in the manga, and manga is canon. Anime is not.

But since you asked, here's Itachi countering Kurenai's Genjutsu effortlessly:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Not to mention he Sharingan allows the user to see through Genjutsu, so yeah.

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@thevivas:

  1. It physically show's Itachi having trouble seeing.
  2. Itachi walking in Suasno was less than 20 secs then he died, so what are you saying? and Sasuke had no means of evading Susano or getting into it like Lord 2nd does, FTG
  3. Izuna>Itachi and Lord 2nd killed him within minutes.
  4. It shows multiple times Itachi having chakra problems you can not deny this as it is FACT
  5. Lord 2nd, has defeated Izuna who was an equal to Madara with his MS. This feat only is better than anyone Itachi has beaten.
  6. Itachi has no answer for the FTG it was made evident that he can be blitzed in his battle against Kabuto.
  7. Unless you can show me some feat of Itachi beating a Kage level person in there prime Lord 2nd> Itachi
  8. Water>Fire and fire is Itachi's Main chakra type
  9. And yes if Itachi sets there and uses his MS attacks he will lose his eye sight.

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@the_new_avenger:

  1. It physically show's Itachi having trouble seeing.

Because he's losing his eyesight. That still didn't stop him from doing this:

No Caption Provided

Itachi walking in Suasno was less than 20 secs then he died, so what are you saying?

Activates Susanoo, fights Orochimaru's Snakes, stabs Orochimaru and seals him, walks toward Sasuke while defending from paper bombs and Sasuke's attack, all while holding Susanoo up. And again, this is when he was already dieing from illness and losing his eyesight. Quick thinking he can't hold it longer than 20 seconds.

Sasuke had no means of evading Susano or getting into it like Lord 2nd does, FTG

Yeah, he can't teleport inside Susanoo.

Izuna>Itachi and Lord 2nd killed him within minutes.

Going by feats, no he's not. And no he didn't defeat him within minutes. They had already been fighting before that video started.

It shows multiple times Itachi having chakra problems you can not deny this as it is FACT

When did I deny it?

Lord 2nd, has defeated Izuna who was an equal to Madara with his MS. This feat only is better than anyone Itachi has beaten.

That would be impressive. That is, if Izuna had any feats of his own other than "being an equal to the weakest incarnation of Madara we've seen".

Itachi has no answer for the FTG it was made evident that he can be blitzed in his battle against Kabuto.

More lowballing. For one, Edo Tensei's are brought back weaker and slower than they were when they were alive, and two, half of that fight was Itachi preparing and setting Kabuto up to use Izanami on him.

Unless you can show me some feat of Itachi beating a Kage level person in there prime Lord 2nd> Itachi

I'll do that after you show me Tobirama beating an Uchiha that actually has feats, not one statement to his name.

Water>Fire and fire is Itachi's Main chakra type

This is just getting sad at this point, if you're bringing that up.

And yes if Itachi sets there and uses his MS attacks he will lose his eye sight.

Not before he beats Tobirama.

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Insertnewname

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@thevivas:

1. The jutsu was supposed to activate sasukes amaterasu in the second he sees obitos eyes. Everything beyond this point was sasuke willingly using his own amaterasu.

2. He could have mastered it without being seen. As I already stated. We can't say if that happened or not.

However, it is the way it works. You have to master 2 techniques in order to obtain susanoo from your MS.. Please, you can just search for it in the internet^^

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terry2012

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TheVivas

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@iamnot:

The jutsu was supposed to activate sasukes amaterasu in the second he sees obitos eyes. Everything beyond this point was sasuke willingly using his own amaterasu.

Using it willingly......because Itachi gave it to him. Otherwise, he couldn't use it, because there's no reason why Sasuke would be able to use Amaterasu while Madara, Obito, Shisui, and others couldn't.

He could have mastered it without being seen. As I already stated. We can't say if that happened or not.

No, he didn't master it. If you can't say without certainty, and if there isn't enough evidence, then he didn't. There is no "well he might have, so let's not rule it out".

However, it is the way it works. You have to master 2 techniques in order to obtain susanoo from your MS.. Please, you can just search for it in the internet^^

Okay, then what two techniques did Madara master to get his Susanoo?

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KCMinato

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itachi 9/10

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Insertnewname

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@thevivas:

Dude.. Chill again

How can you say they can't when you don't even know that? Like seriously..

That's like saying Bruce Wayne don't know how to use a cell phone just because he never did.. (example)

No proof =/= not possible. Same as saying naruto never uses a toilet/ he can't poop because there is no proof of him doing so..

Don't know?? xD

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TheVivas

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@iamnot said:

@thevivas:

Dude.. Chill again

How can you say they can't when you don't even know that? Like seriously..

That's like saying Bruce Wayne don't know how to use a cell phone just because he never did.. (example)

No proof =/= not possible. Same as saying naruto never uses a toilet/ he can't poop because there is no proof of him doing so..

Don't know?? xD

None of these analogies make sense. We've seen Bruce use phones and we've seen Naruto use toilets.

In your theory, Madara and Obito can use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, they just felt the need to not use it. Ever. In all of their showings. Doesn't make sense.

Same with Kakashi. Apparently he had to "master" both parts of the Kamui in less than 10 minutes in order to use Susanoo. Without any proof or evidence other than "well somewhere I heard you have to master two techniques to use Susanoo, so obviously every one had to". Doesn't make sense.

Here's an theory. Kamui is technically only one technique, with two uses to it. Even if Kakashi mastered the other half of it, it's still only one technique. Where's his second? You can't use out-of-date databook scans (the one of Itachi and his Susanoo) to explain other things that have been retconned. Madara never had Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, yet he could activate Susanoo, despite the databook stating you need to activate both in order to use Susanoo. Kakashi never used Amatersu or Tsukuyomi, yet he could use Susano. Sasuke never used Tsukuyomi, yet he could use Susanoo.

If they don't have feats, and you can't logically infer as to why they would have the technique, then they don't. Saying "we haven't seen them use the technique, but it that doesn't mean they can't" isn't a good enough reason.

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Insertnewname

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#143  Edited By Insertnewname

@thevivas:

@thevivas said:
@iamnot said:

@thevivas:

Dude.. Chill again

How can you say they can't when you don't even know that? Like seriously..

That's like saying Bruce Wayne don't know how to use a cell phone just because he never did.. (example)

No proof =/= not possible. Same as saying naruto never uses a toilet/ he can't poop because there is no proof of him doing so..

Don't know?? xD

None of these analogies make sense. We've seen Bruce use phones and we've seen Naruto use toilets.

These were, as I said, examples. The names were the first two I thought would match.

In your theory, Madara and Obito can use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, they just felt the need to not use it. Ever. In all of their showings. Doesn't make sense.

Sure it does. You could also say "Kakashi doesn't know 1000 Jutsus he's a Liar $!!**#^''-" because he never showed them by this logic.

However, in my theory, they know two MS techniques and mastered them in order to obtain Susanoo. Don't have to be these in certain.

Same with Kakashi. Apparently he had to "master" both parts of the Kamui in less than 10 minutes in order to use Susanoo. Without any proof or evidence other than "well somewhere I heard you have to master two techniques to use Susanoo, so obviously every one had to". Doesn't make sense.

Here's an theory. Kamui is technically only one technique, with two uses to it. Even if Kakashi mastered the other half of it, it's still only one technique. Where's his second? You can't use out-of-date databook scans (the one of Itachi and his Susanoo) to explain other things that have been retconned. Madara never had Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, yet he could activate Susanoo, despite the databook stating you need to activate both in order to use Susanoo. Kakashi never used Amatersu or Tsukuyomi, yet he could use Susano. Sasuke never used Tsukuyomi, yet he could use Susanoo.

Lol wait what? I spend time lf proof but you already discovered it, but just deny it as you don't believe these data-books..? Lol.. why??

If they don't have feats, and you can't logically infer as to why they would have the technique, then they don't. Saying "we haven't seen them use the technique, but it that doesn't mean they can't" isn't a good enough reason.

As I said, the reason would be that they need 2 techniques in order to obtain susanoo. However, I might have been wrong by saying tsuke and ame in certain, but just because the book was wrong. So.. that doesn't mean anything I guess.

Hmm

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quantum-savage

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Unbiased:

Speed:Tobirama obviously one of the fastest characters in the entire Narutoverse. Supposedly only second to Minato by popular belief. Although fastest are believed to be of course Minato, A and Tobirama(possibly in that order) ,if you look at this in a "chain" type of way , only person to ever dodge A's lariet WAS Minato(which in turn makes Minato faster than A) ,next comes Naruto in Bijuu mode dodges A's lariet(makes him faster than A) then comes Itachi to not only dodge Naruto in Bijuu but also land hits on Naruto in Bijuu(maybe it was Naruto restraining himself but its hard to tell sometimes) this would seem Itachi is somewhere up there with the fastest to me. Keep in mind this fight would be both Tobirama and Itachi in bloodlust, Tobirama and his anger would practically always bloodlust when you see him fight as to where you never see Itachi fighting his hardest or bloodlusted for that matter. In terms of speed I'll still give it to Tobirama but only because of his teleportation .

Jutsu:Both have just about everything you'd want in terms of Jutsu ,but Itachi and his supreme Genjutsu he edges out Tobirama in this.

Taijutsu:Draw

Popularity:(plays a part in decision fights tbh) Itachi takes this easy probably the most popular Naruto Character of all

Special:in terms of special abilities Itachi takes this by a landslide, with jutsu like Izanami for example Itachi could end a fight before it barely starts no matter who the opponent.

Itachi wins

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RukelnikovFTW

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OMG, is this still going? I already showed Tobi breaking from genjutsu, Tobi is a sensor type, Itachi isn't (Itachi admitted he couldn't sense Kabuto and Nagato had to tell him where to go). So he can get the drop on Itachi, and inb4 "but sharingan!" the fight with izuna proves it doesn't matter. Tobi is, by Madara's own statement (says this after tobi tries to get the drop on him), faster then him when he was alive.

Tobirama blitzes with Hiraishingiri and battle goes just like with Izuna. He can wait for Itachi to lower Susano'o since he can sense him miles away, once its down, puff, blade to the guts GGWP.

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RukelnikovFTW

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Unbiased:

Speed:Tobirama obviously one of the fastest characters in the entire Narutoverse. Supposedly only second to Minato by popular belief. Although fastest are believed to be of course Minato, A and Tobirama(possibly in that order) ,if you look at this in a "chain" type of way , only person to ever dodge A's lariet WAS Minato(which in turn makes Minato faster than A) ,next comes Naruto in Bijuu mode dodges A's lariet(makes him faster than A) then comes Itachi to not only dodge Naruto in Bijuu but also land hits on Naruto in Bijuu(maybe it was Naruto restraining himself but its hard to tell sometimes) this would seem Itachi is somewhere up there with the fastest to me. Keep in mind this fight would be both Tobirama and Itachi in bloodlust, Tobirama and his anger would practically always bloodlust when you see him fight as to where you never see Itachi fighting his hardest or bloodlusted for that matter. In terms of speed I'll still give it to Tobirama but only because of his teleportation .

Jutsu:Both have just about everything you'd want in terms of Jutsu ,but Itachi and his supreme Genjutsu he edges out Tobirama in this.

Taijutsu:Draw

Popularity:(plays a part in decision fights tbh) Itachi takes this easy probably the most popular Naruto Character of all

Special:in terms of special abilities Itachi takes this by a landslide, with jutsu like Izanami for example Itachi could end a fight before it barely starts no matter who the opponent.

Itachi wins

Edo Tensei sh!ts all over anything Itachi has ever displayed

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bull909

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LOl please close this. It's been a one-sided argument with Itachi fanboys just writing down Itachi's name with nothing else to add.

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quantum-savage

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I do recount Itachi having genjutsu strong enough to break himself out of it (accidentally to add) so I'm not sure what Edo tensei have to do with this, and I doubt Tobirama would call it during a fight with a Bloodlusted Itachi much less have time for it

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RukelnikovFTW

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#149  Edited By RukelnikovFTW  Online

@quantum-savage: The genjutsu stong enought to break ET control was Shisui's Kotoamatsukami, not Itachi's. Plus, both bloodlusted, i don't think Itachi has the speed to keep up.

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quantum-savage

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Oh yeah you're right about the genjutsu thing but technically he did posses it/have access but but still if he and Tobirama were to fight I just don't see Edo Tensei playing a part in it, and I already tried explaining how Itachi could have enough speed to keep up in a H2H fight