TLA: Katara vs Toph

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ZR2011

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Poll TLA: Katara vs Toph (17 votes)

Katara 59%
Toph 29%
Stalemate 12%

Katara: As of the end of ATLA

Toph: As of the end of ATLA

Location: On the banks of this river

No Caption Provided

Conditions: Bloodlusted, Toph killed Aang and Katara killed Toph’s family. There are two metal cages, like the ones used to capture Toph, strewn about. Starting distance of 15 feet

No Caption Provided

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WorldsGreatest

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#1 WorldsGreatest  Online

Toph stomps her. A large earth pillar erupts from the ground and hits Katara and kills her at the start of the fight.

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Masma94

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I am undecided about this fight outcome.

It could go either way imo.

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Viking1205

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Katara takes it with high difficulty.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@worldsgreatest: Katara reacted to lightning, while Toph has only reacted to an arrow

Katara >>>>>>>> Toph in speed, she blitzes her and flash freezes her or stabs her with the air moisture blade attack she leaned from Hama

Without bloodlust: Katara wins 8/10 due do fighting against superior opponents, having superior mobility, superior speed, and comparable power.

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DoTheTwist_

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Lol @ 8/10, toph litterally has some of the best non-avatar feats in the verse. This location is a bit one sided though; a mountain setting with a big lake in the middle is the most even ground for these two

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WorldsGreatest

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#7 WorldsGreatest  Online

@worldsgreatest: Katara reacted to lightning, while Toph has only reacted to an arrow

Katara >>>>>>>> Toph in speed, she blitzes her and flash freezes her or stabs her with the air moisture blade attack she leaned from Hama

Without bloodlust: Katara wins 8/10 due do fighting against superior opponents, having superior mobility, superior speed, and comparable power.

Katara was blitzed by lightning when Zuko was fighting Azula. Nice cap.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@worldsgreatest: That was her being unprepared lol nice try. At least she perceived it despite not at all being prepared to move or bend.

After this while actually in combat she effortlessly blocks comet enhanced lightning with limited water and it was after it was fired.

Katara is hypersonic in reaction, while Toph is arrow speed

Katara blitzed nice cap

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@dothetwist_: Lol you’re funny. Katara is hypersonic in reaction speed.....this is bloodlusted. Both are capable of one shotting each other therefore the faster person wins.

Toph is arrow speed at best

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JDogg

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Katara wins.

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Regime

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#11  Edited By Regime

@emmafrostxmen: When did Katara ever reacted to lightning? Because she def didn’t when fighting Azula

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DoTheTwist_

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#12  Edited By DoTheTwist_

@emmafrostxmen: hypersonic reaction speed for aimdodging Azulas attack? You cant be serious right now? She didnt even dodge it she just froze her before she could complete the dance...which Toph could just as easily do as well; probably better due to the Seismic sense ability.

Toph can scale to Aang from their fights btw so I'm not sure where you're getting this shes too fast from. Nothing but a massive AoE from Katara has potential to end the fight, anything else wont make it past tophs defense and/or armors whereas metal would go through anything Katara can mount. Its nowhere near a stomp for either side unless the battleground is uneven.

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Floopay

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Probably Toph. Toph was pretty consistently shown to be a superior bender to almost everyone except maybe Azula. Plus, IIRC, it's a lot harder for a water bender to break through an earth bender's defenses than vice versa. Especially considering Toph can literally just disappear into the ground at any time and nullify anything Katara could do to her.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@dothetwist_: she didnt aim dodge, nice try though. She bended and blocked it after the lightning was fired. Go rewatch their fight before spreading fake news.

Toph barely blocked the arrows. The seismic sense allows her to feel movement. It allows for better awareness, not better reaction time. Awareness has nothing to do with reaction time. Additionally Katara still has >>>>>>>> Toph’s reaction speed

You can’t scale reaction time and combat speed from two fights where Aang was holding back (not trying to hurt or especially kill her). That’s not how scaling works.

Katara directly blocked lightning and bended after it was fired. Katara speed blitzes Toph when bloodlusted, and under normal circumstances she will just abuse Toph not being able to see on ice or water. Katara directly counters Toph via being able to indefinitely float on water and bend while on it. Toph can’t see Katara when she’s on water while Katara can always see Toph.

Katara wins 8/10 like I said

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@floopay: Water benders can effortlessly break steel with a normal sized water source. That’s just incorrect

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#20  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@regime: You are wrong Lmaooo you said “definitely didn’t” when she did it on screen. She did and if was comet enhanced lightning. Go view her respect thread. Toph is an arrow timer, Katara is hypersonic in combat speed due to bending after the lightning was fired.

When bloodlusted she speed blitzes her.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@regime said:

@emmafrostxmen: When did Katara ever reacted to lightning? Because she def didn’t when fighting Azula

No Caption Provided

It is on screen fired before she bended the water in front of her.

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vengefulshot

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Katara wins with high difficulty if she is forced to stay grounded and stomps Toph if she can go onto the water.

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vengefulshot

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#23  Edited By vengefulshot

@floopay: Toph has never shown burrowing in combat, only using the technique once in the drill where she had to stand still for a whopping 4 seconds to get the move off.

Toph being better than Azula, which is debatable, is irrelevant. Katara has beaten Azula 1v1 3 times now (context heavy on the second and third, but the comet is such a bigger boost than her mental collapse was a hindrance).

I disagree with it being harder for a water bender to break an earth defence than vice versa. When has Toph even broken through the water or ice of a bender?

Katara for example:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Clearly has no problem fodderizing earth,

has multiple instances of trashing metal:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And has huge defensive power that Toph will struggle to break if she can at all:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is ignoring the fact that she doesn't even need to break through Tophs defence, just work around them by attacking from a direction a Toph shield isn't in:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

A tactic Katara will use because she has knowledge on Tophs blindness.

If Katara goes on the water Toph can't do anything. At best she forces a stalemate by turtling up and putting all of her power into her defensive constructs, because I really don't see her touching Katara skating around on a surface of water.

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chloros

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#24  Edited By chloros  Online

@vengefulshot: I agree with Katara winning, and most of what you said, but do you think it's possible Toph could hear Katara on the water? She managed to launch herself and land directly on Appa high in the sky just from hearing his roar. I think surfing on the water would also make noise giving her a sense of where she would be.

No Caption Provided
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DoTheTwist_

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@emmafrostxmen: you seem to be passive aggressive for no reason and highly unlikable. I wouldve been willing to actually read and respond if you didnt resort to being a condescending child when questioned on your viewpoint.

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DoTheTwist_

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#26  Edited By DoTheTwist_
Loading Video...

4:42 "Hypersonic" Katara, I guess anything that's factual is 'fake news'

Edit:

Awareness has nothing to do with reaction time.

LOL! I'm so done with the internet today.

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vengefulshot

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@chloros: That is fair, Toph can try and use her other senses to attack Katara on the water but it's not as effective as sight or sisemic sense, which is why she cannot last long if that's the tactic Katara uses, she has too many options here due to her insane versatility, though Toph is comparable on overall power level.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@dothetwist_: Awareness allows you to understand what’s around you. Reaction time is literally how quickly you could realize sometime is coming at you.

Toph can notice things like small ants walking on the ground, which is amazing awareness, but literally means nothing when concerning reactions.

You’re wrong, factually. Toph already on screen failed to react to a wave from Katara therefore showing she can’t see water which is later confirmed by her being unable to see on the ice platform connected to her earth pillar

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@dothetwist_: I have no issue correcting people that ask for the feat in referring to, but instead you lied and said an on screen feat (that I posted) “definitely didn’t happen”

Next time ask for a reminder of a feat instead of lying and I’ll be nice

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@dothetwist_: Katara factually was not prepared for Azula’s first attack, there was no water near her, and it’s not an in combat speed feat

All you’ve done is prove my point. Katara while completely unprepared and out of battle still saw the lightning and reacted, but she just had no way of defending

Also my point is 100% confirmed by Katara I’m combat next to water reacting to the lightning on screen

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chloros

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#32 chloros  Online
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Donnieboy16

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#33  Edited By Donnieboy16

Katara wins if she uses bloodbending. Toph to me wins in a straight fight give the fact that she managed to draw against incredibly powerful benders in the past.

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DoTheTwist_

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#34  Edited By DoTheTwist_

@emmafrostxmen said:

@dothetwist_: Awareness allows you to understand what’s around you. Reaction time is literally how quickly you could realize sometime is coming at you.

Are you even reading what you're saying right now? In all.my days I've never seen someone so intent on making a mess of themselves rather than admitting their wrong.

You're saying that Avatar characters have some sort of sixth sense that allows them to react to something without being aware of it? By god do go ahead and further make a fool of yourself by explaining this.

Toph can notice things like small ants walking on the ground, which is amazing awareness, but literally means nothing when concerning reactions.

So if Toph can in turn feel her opponents muscles moving to make a certain move would not that awareness play into her own reaction of such? If shes aware of what's happening why cant she respond?

You’re wrong, factually.

No Caption Provided

Toph already on screen failed to react to a wave from Katara therefore showing she can’t see water which is later confirmed by her being unable to see on the ice platform connected to her earth pillar

You're wrong. Toph 'sees' things via the vibrations connected to her feet, in shallow water (ankle hieght) where vibrations happen to travel faster there is no substantiation for the claim Toph wouldnt be able to use seismic sense to the exact same degree if not better. However I dont expect you to be able to understand that on the account the application of awareness itself confuses you.

@emmafrostxmen said:

@dothetwist_: I have no issue correcting people that ask for the feat in referring to, but instead you lied and said an on screen feat (that I posted) “definitely didn’t happen”

Next time ask for a reminder of a feat instead of lying and I’ll be nice

You didnt correct anyone, you just waltzed in the thread attacking several users with a disgusting condescending tone with a number of hot air balloon arguments that quite frankly dont even make sense. I could care less if you're 'nice' you've already exhibited yourself to be an immature, overly aggressive, and childish individual regardless of the situation. Your own self insecurity of always being right has already burned any bridge of me wanting to conversate with you; much like the other users here who I see have just chose to ignore you.

You stated Katara is Hypersonic for dodging Azulas lightning , gave no proof whatsoever of Azulas lightning being hypersonic, and then recalled an instance where Katara quite clearly aim dodged Azula at pointblank range with a panic flash freeze to support your argument. Then attacked anyone who even remotely questioned otherwise.

@emmafrostxmen said:

@dothetwist_: Katara factually was not prepared for Azula’s first attack, there was no water near her, and it’s not an in combat speed feat

All you’ve done is prove my point. Katara while completely unprepared and out of battle still saw the lightning and reacted, but she just had no way of defending

Also my point is 100% confirmed by Katara I’m combat next to water reacting to the lightning on screen

Dude I dont even know what this comment is supposed to mean. You're saying she reacted to it but didnt react to it but it's not a combat feat......even though both were already fighting. I'm honestly done here, you broke the internet for me mate.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@dothetwist_: 1) Katara wasn’t prepared and had no water around to defend. This is an undeniable fact. Even if she wanted to bend she had nothing to use, and she obviously wasn’t prepared to move judging by how Azula’s movement was a split second decision.

2) Awareness is the understanding of your environment. No person that understands what reaction time is would conflate the two words. Otherwise Toph could react to Flash just because he touches the ground. She cant. She has 360 vision, she didn’t have omnipresent reaction time

3) Explain why Toph didn’t react to the slow / weak wave Katara sent if she can react to water on ground......Toph has also never fought a water bender outside of this instance in which she didn’t even visibly notice the wave

4) Lightning is lightning. In the episode where Iroh teaches Zuko how to redirect lightning Zuko goes outside to look for sky lightning. If the two moved at different speeds Iroh would have said something to stop him instead he talked about the two (sky lightning and bending lightning) like they are the exact same thing. In universe there is no proof against Zuko having compared the two different kinds of lightning, so realistically you have to prove to me by finding a statement that shows that they are different

5) Even if the two are different bending lightning is visibly >>>>>>>>> arrow speed. I’ve already posted the gif of Katara while prepared and near water bending after the lightning was fired and successfully blocking it

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#36  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@dothetwist_: also don’t lie. I corrected the other user that said the instance I mentioned never happened yet I found the exact moment in the gif

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DoTheTwist_

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@dothetwist_: 1) Katara wasn’t prepared and had no water around to defend. This is an undeniable fact. Even if she wanted to bend she had nothing to use, and she obviously wasn’t prepared to move judging by how Azula’s movement was a split second decision.

Dude she threw a last second attempt to stop her attack and THIS is the selling point for her 'blitzing'? The water source is litterally right next to her and they stalemated? You're saying Katara didnt notice the whole little dance she did before firing it despite looking her in the eye beforehand?

Even If we accept the feat with how you're interpreting it(I'm by no means agreeing to that logic) how on earth does that equate to a hypersonic Katara in any category whether it be bending, reactionary, or processing speed when she was quite litterally in motion as it was fired?

2) Awareness is the understanding of your environment. No person that understands what reaction time is would conflate the two words. Otherwise Toph could react to Flash just because he touches the ground. She cant. She has 360 vision, she didn’t have omnipresent reaction time

I assure you ANYONE else on this website will tell you you're physically incapable of reacting to something if you're not aware of it. If you happen to move out of the way of something you arent aware of you didnt react to it. A reaction is becoming aware of it and acting, there is no level of mental gymnastics that will EVER change this.

Like seriously What in the world is that example? It's like you know you've boned so bad yet cant accept it and keep the wheel going. Let's just say that instead of the flash running through we'll use the fastest Avatar character, an air amped Aang. If he was running why couldnt she become aware and react accordingly?

3) Explain why Toph didn’t react to the slow / weak wave Katara sent if she can react to water on ground......Toph has also never fought a water bender outside of this instance in which she didn’t even visibly notice the wave

I mean I can take small nit-picky showings like Katara struggling with the Dai Li to say Katara wouldnt be able to handle Tophs more controlled projectiles? Why would Toph react to the wave if she feels Katara bending? Why not defend and/or simply attack the bender? I guess because a character isnt making the best combat decision 100% of the time it can be applied to every other feat?

4) Lightning is lightning. In the episode where Iroh teaches Zuko how to redirect lightning Zuko goes outside to look for sky lightning. If the two moved at different speeds Iroh would have said something to stop him instead he talked about the two (sky lightning and bending lightning) like they are the exact same thing. In universe there is no proof against Zuko having compared the two different kinds of lightning, so realistically you have to prove to me by finding a statement that shows that they are different

So......YOU made the claim Katara was hypersonic for dodging it, YOU made the claim her lightning operates under natural capabilities, and YOU are once again equalizing the two without evidence. I'm sorry to tell you it doesnt work like that.

TL;DR your Source: 'trust me bro'

5) Even if the two are different bending lightning is visibly >>>>>>>>> arrow speed. I’ve already posted the gif of Katara while prepared and near water bending after the lightning was fired and successfully blocking it

No....you didnt, the water was in motion as it was fired; you cant assume Katara was actionless because the camera wasnt on her. I dont know what screaming arrow speed does for you, I honestly dont even know how I got suckered into replying to this heap of a response.

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DoTheTwist_

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@dothetwist_: also don’t lie. I corrected the other user that said the instance I mentioned never happened yet I found the exact moment in the gif

Then I thought you were talking about something else, how about you clarify before you come at others so rudely and offputting. It would make you seem like a somewhat rational individual until they get to the substance of your claims.

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BigDreamer48

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I think this is a large enough body of water for Katara to edge it out 6/10. Especially if she's physically in the water. She and Toph are pretty even to me in base power, but Katara's got the physical and versatility edge.

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Viking1205

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I still think Katara wins it. She's faster than Toph. Katara has shown to be more creative with her moves. I find her to be the better bender marginally. With the supply of water in the location, I can see her winning against Toph.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@dothetwist_: Firstly, The Water was further away than Azula was. In order for her to have been able to bend it she would have to be much faster than lightning which she isn’t, she’s only comparable to it in reaction speed.

Second, the water started moving after Azula fires it, go rewatch the episode before you say another lie.

Third, even if Katara did bend after (she didn’t) she would still have to be at least mildly hypersonic to keep the water moving fast enough to block it as she did in the episode. No matter how you cut the feat she blocked the lightning and Toph has no feat comparable to this for speed

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#42 Amendment50  Online

Toph stomps

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@dothetwist_: Also I have never said awareness wouldn’t help in a fight. It can help you know something is coming, but if the person is too fast for you your point is moot. For example if I have 360 degree vision and someone shoots me, I’ll know it’s coming, but I still can’t react to the bullet.

Toph has never reacted to anything like lightning

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DoTheTwist_

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#45  Edited By DoTheTwist_
@dothetwist_ said:
@emmafrostxmen said:

@dothetwist_: Firstly, The Water was further away than Azula was. In order for her to have been able to bend it she would have to be much faster than lightning which she isn’t, she’s only comparable to it in reaction speed.

Lmfao! Katara is litterally less than 5 feet away from the stream and it's in the very video presented in the thread as well as the gif you yourself provided.

Second, the water started moving after Azula fires it, go rewatch the episode before you say another lie.

Wonderful so you ignore over a third of the post that already tore your arguments to pieces yet you still claim everything you dont agree with is a lie. There's that insecurity again that I mentioned earlier, why not simply say you disagree with my opinion rather than devolving to name calling?

Also, no like I said that's just an assumption that Katara was motionless when the camera was off her and even then they only showed Azulas sequence to focus on the choreography of the lightning bending; as I said the water was already in motion AS IT WAS FIRED:

No Caption Provided

Third, even if Katara did bend after (she didn’t) she would still have to be at least mildly hypersonic to keep the water moving fast enough to block it as she did in the episode. No matter how you cut the feat she blocked the lightning and Toph has no feat comparable to this for speed

Dude. Please stop tagging me. I think I've been civil for as long as I possibly can here. Katara is 'mildly hypersonic' for aimdodging an attack that gives plenty of warning and hasnt been proven hypersonic in the first place? You'd be hard pressed arguing Aang himself is hypersonic let alone anyone else in this verse.

How about you use something even remotely concrete rather than relying on a frame by frame animation; how about we compare them fighting against the same enemy to compare their bending speed?; Tophs attack clearly covered a larger distance at a faster rate than Katara's attack here against CM:

Loading Video...

So....if Katara is hypersonic that speed applies to Toph; not that I'd ever claim something as absolutely ludicrous as any character in the verse being Hypersonic though.

@emmafrostxmen said:

@dothetwist_: Also I have never said awareness wouldn’t help in a fight. It can help you know something is coming, but if the person is too fast for you your point is moot. For example if I have 360 degree vision and someone shoots me, I’ll know it’s coming, but I still can’t react to the bullet.

What another absolutely piss poor example on your end. Your comparing the difference in speed to a regular human and a bullet? As if Katara just moves so fast Toph has no way of even perceiving her......despite fighting faster and more agile Benders.

Toph has never reacted to anything like lightning

Shes never been put in the situation to have to? Lmfao! So Toph wouldnt be able to react to Azula going through the full lightning motion based on absolutely what?

Also She has fought people who have reacted to lightning and scales above people who have; I guess Zuko and Iroh 'blitz' too by this logic here huh?

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#46  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@dothetwist_: no matter what you say, the water was not directly in front of her even after it was fired therefore it’s still moving nearly as fast as the lightning and the gif you provided was after Azula already fired. You’ve disproved yourself the water wasn’t in front of her even after it was fired

Also when Katara was motionless it was again when she wasn’t prepared to even move due to not expecting the attack, and you’re misremembering the location. When she was motionless she was not near the water and it would have taken too long to pull it to her body later when she blocks it, it was after she moved locations and was then closer to the pond/pool. Additionally she didn’t notice the water in the gutter until later into the fight. Moral of the story, she wasn’t prepared which is evident in the episode....

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DoTheTwist_

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@emmafrostxmen: so the screenshot I posted doesnt clearly show the water already being in motion at the same time the blast was fired? Mk. You can harbor any opinion you want I just want others to see the blatant denial present here. You went from essay responses to a two paragrapher that didnt counter, contest, or refute practically anything; for the 3rd time, were done here.

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@dothetwist_: lol you can’t read my mind. Lmfaooo and you sure as hell don’t decide when we’re done. Additionally I stopped writing essays because it gets boring debating with someone that is making a baseless head canon fact (you saying that Katara moves before the lightning fired despite absolutely nothing confirming this and the animated actively falsifying this)

You obviously can’t read. The picture you posted is manipulative because you’re falsely promoting an incorrect narrative. Azula fires the lightning then you see that the water is in motion, you saying Katara moves first is a head canon as we pan away after Azula has already fired. And as I’ve already stated THE WATER WASNT IN FRONT OF HER SO SHE WAS STILL MOVING FAST ENOUGH TO EFFICIENTLY BLOCK THE LIGHTNING. Nobody on the site will agree with you. Katara blocked lightning, and it’s common knowledge to all of the avatar fans on the site except the 2 people in this thread that use head canons to disregard on screen feats

Again: the water was not in front of Katara and had to keep moving to block the lightning. Even if she moved the water half as fast as the lighting it’s still >>>>>>>>> Toph’s arrow timing

You’re wrong as you’ve proven with the screenshot. Toph can block an arrow, and Katara can move water fast enough to block lightning.

Again (because you’re blatantly lying): Katara was standing there, the screen cuts to Azula and back to Katara (still not bending any water) then back to Azula. Azula fires the lightning, and the screen goes back to Katara where it shows the water having just started the beginning movements and is not yet covering her body thus she still lightning timed.