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#1 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rules:

  • Since they are implied to be around the same power level, it'd be preferred to base the winner off of superior abilities/hax/feats.
  • No meta logic.
  • No VS Battles logic.

For people who may be interested @ovy7@kilgpmktra

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#2 Posted by ovy7 (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if they are at the same lvl, I'm still going with Auau. Way more experience.

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#3 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: I was thinking that, but the fact that Beatrice's unlocked potential is so high that she instantly gets to Creator Witch/Aurora level instantly makes me wonder if she can surpass Aurora mid-fight since her potential unlock just seems that insane. I'm not sure who wins though. More experience Vs. more potential can go either way in my eyes.

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#4 Posted by ovy7 (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: The thing is, based on Auau's standing in the cosmology, if Beato would surpass her then she'll become part of The Creator and stop existing as "Beatrice". I guess that you could count that as a win for Beato, but IMO it's kinda reaching NLF territory.

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#5 Posted by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: Well I was thinking in terms of reaching slightly above her without becoming one with the Creator (which doesn't count as she'd be erased entirely). Maybe she'd be able to get closer than Aurora without becoming it; I'm not sure though. Not sure who wins since there are so many variables.

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#6 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: @ovy7:

Why can't Featherine just destroy the Infinite Ladder and Hierarchy to prevent Beatrice's ascension?

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#7 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Pretty sure the moment Beatrice realizes her potential (which is really just whenever she decides to), it is instantly unlocked and she becomes Creator Witch level IIRC. Yes she's that broken. It's not really about ascending the ladder in her case. Constructing her own magic system is already beyond the capabilities and comprehension of Voyagers and the Witches Domain.

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#8 Edited by cKarma (129 posts) - - Show Bio

Genjutsu gg

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#9 Posted by Yasindermann (1147 posts) - - Show Bio

It was implied that full potencial Beatrice is on par with Augustus Aurora, so....stalemate. We can't go after other interpretations, because that's the only statement of Beatrice full potential.

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#10 Posted by Helloman (29712 posts) - - Show Bio

They aren't the strongest.

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#11 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

^ Troll comment for anyone who doesn't know.

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#12 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

^ Troll comment for anyone who doesn't know.

Of course they're not the strongest.

Beatrice and Featherine exist in computer VN games and manga, so they are 2-dimensionally flat to our 3-D world so they're only 2-D.

Hoping nobody takes what I just said seriously.

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#13 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Buht dey cantrol dee plOT meanin dey can use de plAt tew rite temselfes toow beh teh strankest in rEL lyFe!

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#14 Posted by ovy7 (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

@zgtfreak: @ovy7:

Why can't Featherine just destroy the Infinite Ladder and Hierarchy to prevent Beatrice's ascension?

. . . I never thought about that honestly.

In story: probably because she doesn't care at all

In this battle: I dunno

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#15 Posted by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: I mean some of Beatrice's feats are already beyond the Witches Domain. I don't think it's about climbing the ladder in her specific case, as she already has feats beyond it. Once she decides to realize her full potential, then she just gets fully bumped up to Creator Witch status, which is something Aurora can't really prevent unless she knew ahead of time.

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#16 Posted by Yasindermann (1147 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Oh sorry, just readed you're description. Then I would say....I don't know, really. xD

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#17 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: If she doesn't care, why would she care to win at all against a TP Beatrice? Unless Z is having us going no morals where Featherine does care about a ladder that makes it possible for a chance of something surpassing her.

@zgtfreak: Knowing ahead of time? Is that going to be her problem? Featherine is Omniversally Omniscient and Omnipresent. She would know ahead of time, realizing it eternally before it happened.

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#18 Posted by Yasindermann (1147 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: When you really have to tend, who would the winner in you're eyes?

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#19 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: She knows everything within the Umineko story since she's above it, but I don't know if that applies to beings already semi in her realm, such as Beatrice, as she would be above the story somewhat just like Aurora. I don't know if Aurora can see the future of someone already stepping into her realm; maybe though.

@yasindermannWhen you really have to tend, who would the winner in you're eyes?

Sorry, but I'm having a difficult time understanding what you're saying here.

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#20 Posted by Yasindermann (1147 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Shit, my english is bad. So I say it otherwise: When you must consider a winner here, who would be the winner in you're eyes?

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#21 Posted by ovy7 (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

Auau already knows about Beatrice's potential because Bern mentioned it to her in her letter for Auau's "revival".

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#22 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: Yes, but I'm saying that since Beatrice is already semi in her domain, she probably doesn't auto know when Beatrice will unlock it, just that she is capable, and she only knows of her power due to Bern.

@yasindermann So I say it otherwise: When you must consider a winner here, who would be the winner in you're eyes?

Not sure yet, hence why I made the thread. I'll get back to you on that.

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#23 Posted by Yasindermann (1147 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: The problem is, that abilities and hax are really subjective. When we go after feats, Aurora would probaly win, because the best “feats“ from Beatrice are just statements, accordinf to my knowledge. If we include statements, Beatrice would be automatically above Aurora, because she would become a witch on creator level.

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#24 Posted by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: An example is if Beatrice and Aurora face off (let's say Beatrice replaces Lambdadelta in the Lambda Vs. Aurora fight). Beatrice knowing that she can't win could just automatically unlock her potential at that very instant before Aurora can do anything about it.

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#25 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: Actually Beatrice's original magic system is a real feat, and said feat is on the level of Aurora, so she isn't featless.

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#26 Posted by Yasindermann (1147 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Ok, now this is something. Then it's too hard for me to choose. Maybe I come back later. Bye.

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#27 Posted by Yasindermann (1147 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: But I still tend to Beatrice, because of the creator-level speculation.

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#28 Posted by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#29 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio
@yasindermann said:

@zgtfreak: Shit, my english is bad. So I say it otherwise: When you must consider a winner here, who would be the winner in you're eyes?

@ovy7@sungsamI've been pondering on who'd win, but I think I've finally came to a conclusion just now...

Creator Witch Beatrice and Aurora are equal, BUT Aurora has a weakness, aka her memory device, while Beatrice has no such weakness. Yes, it was stated that she'd never let anyone take advantage of it, but that never took into account someone at her same level. I don't think Aurora can defend that device on her head forever, especially when she'd have no weakness to exploit on Beatrice.

So I've finally come to the conclusion that Creator Beatrice wins high-difficulty and thus is the strongest Umineko character (excluding the actual omnipotent Creator).

Any thoughts?

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#30 Posted by ovy7 (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Auau's memory device is a direct concequence of her standing in the cosmology. It helps to mentain her existence in a "place" where the restrictions of the self don't exist anymore. Without it she'll probably be "absorbed" into The Creator.

Is very posible that something similar would happen to Beatrice too when she gets on Featherine's lvl.

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#31 Posted by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: Yes but we don't know for sure, so I don't count it unless it's confirmed personally. The fact that Beato did Creator Witch feats (original magic system) and is already semi above the Witches Domain with no memory device also leads me to believe that she'll be fine. Her true potential is really just her realizing her feats that she's already done, meaning all it'd take to trigger her to go to that level is merely fighting someone above her. She's already kinda at the level of her true potential already with no memory device, but just doesn't know about it, meaning she brings it out randomly, such as making a new magic system when she wanted, instantly piercing Bern's creature in CoB, ect.

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#32 Posted by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: and is already semi above the Witches Domain with no memory device also leads me to believe that she'll be fine.

From these side-stories, Bern realized that Beatrice used rule Y ( any situation is conceivable inside the locked room and regardless of what's real, all words are trusted through agreement by the majority that is left)

the witches didn't know about that which is the establishment of Beatrice's magic. Technically, all bern said was if Beatrice completely comprehended her potential, she would be above the witches but just a step to the level that Featherine came to. Suggesting that essentially, being above witches does not mean you're on Featherine's level

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#33 Posted by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: Bern didn't say that she'd be a step above the Witches Domain specifically; she said that Beatrice was already stepping into Aurora's realm as she is now, which implies they would be equal in raw power if she used her full potential in my eyes.

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#34 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: Oh? Then Featherine would still be Infinitely more powerful than TP Beatrice if that is the case. All Featherine needs to do is destroy the rest of the Infinite Hierarched Multiverse and be done with it.

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#35 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: No, this is what was said:

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Bern said that Beatrice as she is now is already stepping into Aurora's level, not that her full potential is one step above the Witches.

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#36 Edited by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: She didn't imply that they'd be equals.

She just said herself and lambda would be no match. She said the beginners class would surpass the witches and step into her level and if she were to comprehend all she's capable of, the voyagers would truly stand no chance

なるほど、だとするとこのベアトリーチェという魔女は確かに面白い。

 私もあの子も、そして貴方も知らなかった世界を、彼女は切り拓いている。

 それを魔法の根源とするルールY。

 ラムダデルタも少し触れたようだけど、彼女の域には到底及んでいない。

 もしこれこそを魔法と呼ぶならば、ベアトリーチェを除き、私たちは誰一人魔女などと名乗れないに違いない わ。

 その意味において、自らの魔法体系を組み上げた彼女は、魔女としては初心の部類に入りながらも、その域は 魔女をすでに凌駕して、…貴方の域にまで踏み込み掛けていると言えるかもしれない。

 もし彼女がそれを強く意識し、理解したならば。

 私は愚か、ラムダデルタさえも足元には及ばない。

……そして多分きっと、貴方と同じ病に冒されることでしょう。

 しかしそれにしても、実に面白い。

このルールYこそが、魔女ベアトリーチェの存在そのものではないかと見ているの。

"Indeed, if we consider it that way, this Witch named Beatrice certainly is interesting.

She opened up a world that I, that girl and you didn't know.

The rule Y that makes it into the source of the magic.

It seems Lambda-Delta touched it a bit but too, but she can't possibly reach her level.

If we call this very thing as magic, except for Beatrice, certainly not one of us can be called a witch.

In that sense, we may say that since she put together her own magic system, even if she enters the beginners' class, as a witch, her level already surpasses the witches, ... and she is starting to step even into your level.

If she were strongly aware of that and comprehended it.

Not even Lambda-Delta would be a match for her, and I even less.

And most probably, I'll be afflicted with the same disease as you.

However, even so, this is really interesting.

I see this rule Y as the very existence of the witch Beatrice"

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#37 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: She didn't imply that they'd be equals.

Yes, but she didn't say they wouldn't be either. If Beatrice as she is now is already stepping into Aurora's level, then I'd see no reason as to why True Potential Beatrice wouldn't be equal, as there is no evidence of one being above the other to me, just around the same level; to which I just concluded that Beatrice probably wins if she exploits Aurora's memory device, which she could unlike Lambda, as she poses a direct threat to Aurora, unlike Lambda who tried and failed.

Regardless, both are described to be completely above the Witches in a similar manner, and with non-TP Beatrice already stepping into her realm, implying they should be equal when using TP Beatrice.

Edit: I just saw your edited post. Give me a sec to read.

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#38 Posted by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: Finished reading. I know this, but my statement above still stands personally.

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#39 Edited by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

Yes, but she didn't say they wouldn't be either. If Beatrice as she is now is already stepping into Aurora's level, then I'd see no reason as to why True Potential Beatrice wouldn't be equal, as there is no evidence of one being above the other to me, just around the same level; to which I just concluded that Beatrice probably wins if she exploits Aurora's memory device, which she could unlike Lambda, as she poses a direct threat to Aurora, unlike Lambda who tried and failed.

Edit: I just saw your edited post. Give me a sec to read.

Bern is suggesting that the initial step is essentially what Beatrice's unique lifestyle that is above the witches because the witches recognize this is what it would take to surpass them if utilized properly and if she somehow managed to do that, she'd genuinely be above the voyagers. That's probably why she put emphasis on beatrice being above herself and lamb afterwards and why she mentioned lambdadelta being higher than herself despite them being equal in raw power.

Stage 1 is creating a system exceptional to you and stage 2 would outperform the witches whenever used appropriately...but still just a step to Featherine's level.

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#40 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: Stage 1 is creating a system exceptional to you and stage 2 would outperform the witches whenever used appropriately...but still just a step to Featherine's level.

See, the fact that Beatrice now is already "stepping in" to Aurora's level due to stage 1 would imply stage 2 is equal to Aurora, as stage 1 (aka what Bern mentioned when saying that Beatrice is stepping into Aurora's level) is already the part considered to be stepping in, meaning stage 2 should be completed and thus at the same level as Aurora.

I'm glad to have an actual debate though with someone like you, who actually knows what they're talking about, despite our disagreements. I'm enjoying this. Glad to see this thread has been entirely productive.

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#41 Edited by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: See, the fact that Beatrice now is already "stepping in" to Aurora's level due to stage 1 would imply stage 2 is equal to Aurora, as stage 1 (aka what Bern mentioned when saying that Beatrice is stepping into Aurora's level) is already the part considered to be stepping in, meaning stage 2 should be completed and thus at the same level as Aurora.

Yeah but stage one isn't necessarily different than stage two. Bern was implying that the fact that beatrice can utilize such rules, means she could theoretically surpass them If she were to comprehend such potential. That is when she would genuinely be above the voyagers. Beatrice's power is already there, but she is inferior to the voyagers all through out, implying she's only stronger than the voyagers when she comprehends her full potential, thus only stepping towards Featherine's level in the long run.

I'm glad to have an actual debate though with someone like you, who actually knows what they're talking about, despite our disagreements. I'm enjoying this. Glad to see this thread has been entirely productive.

Wow. Honestly, thank you fam. This does mean a lot. I feel the same way

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#43 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: Well the fact that Beatrice is capable of these feats without even realizing her full potential really seems to show that she can go further at full power. Also you can consider the fact that Bern may of referred to current Beatrice as "stepping in" to Aurora's realm because she isn't fully aware, and thus Bern only considers it stepping in until Beatrice fully realizes her power and thus consistently uses it.

On a semi-side note: What makes True Potential Beatrice so dangerous is the fact that she can enter this state at any time. Anyone who probably pushes her in an actual non-gameboard/straight up fight would probably make her instinctively go full potential if she needed it, as she's already done these feats when she needed to. For instance, I can see normal Beatrice instantly using her full potential instinctively against Aurora since she knows that Aurora is far above her, meaning she'd instinctively use her full potential, just like how she created her own magic system by instinctively using her true potential.

Basically what I'm saying is that True Potential/Creator Witch level Beatrice already exist and isn't a mere hypothetical, but will only come out when someone pushes her in combat enough to instinctively use it (or if she knows that her enemy is laughably above her such as with Aurora).

In the end, my conclusion (I didn't have one when I originally made the thread) is that True Potential Beatrice is on the same level as Aurora, but wins high-diff via attacking her memory device, which I don't think Aurora can defend against forever.

I can see that our arguments are slowly turning into an interpretations debate though, so we may have to agree to disagree since there may be no perfect answer.

@sungsam@yasindermann@ovy7 Good and interesting debate between me and Kil if you guys are interested in seeing.

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#44 Posted by FaradaySloth (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

Yhwach stomps

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#45 Posted by Yasindermann (1147 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: I jump in later. I must to go now, bye.

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#46 Edited by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Also you can consider the fact that Bern may of referred to current Beatrice as "stepping in" to Aurora's realm because she isn't fully aware, and thus Bern only considers it stepping in until Beatrice fully realizes her power and thus consistently uses it.

It also implies that it's the nature of Beatrice that would enable something like this to occur if beatrice herself knew, which voyagers are currently mindful of

If "ignorant" beatrice was already above the witches, she wouldn't be inferior to them, which she explicitly is. This letter from Bernkastel suggests that her core power is the thing that makes her special, however she's oblivious of it and therefore still inferior. Only when she realizes her actual potential is the point at which she'll outperform the voyagers. Thus showing that this "step towards your level" was merely an indication of what can possibly happen if Beatrice were to unlock her full potential, not as she currently is.

I can see that our arguments are slowly turning into an interpretations debate though, so we may have to agree to disagree since there may be no perfect answer.

I see. Perhaps we'll come back to this. Interesting topic

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#47 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilgpmktra: If "ignorant" beatrice was already above the witches, she wouldn't be inferior to them, which she explicitly is. This letter from Bernkastel suggests that her core power is the thing that makes her special, however she's oblivious of it and therefore still inferior. Only when she realizes her actual potential is the point at which she'll outperform the voyagers. Thus showing that this "step towards your level" was merely an indication of what can possibly happen if Beatrice were to unlock her full potential, not as she currently is.

She isn't above them normally because she normally does not use her hidden potential, but she has before when needing to, such as when creating her magic system. Normal Beatrice has more power than Voyagers, but is only shown to instinctively use it in burst and isn't fully self aware of it (aka only stepping into Aurora's level since she doesn't actively use it). Her true potential is actively using it (fully completed step on Aurora's level), which could happen by pushing her in a fight in my opinion.

I see. Perhaps we'll come back to this. Interesting topic

Sure, anytime.

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#48 Edited by ovy7 (2910 posts) - - Show Bio

I can see arguments for Beato becoming equal (or stronger) than Auau when she achieved her full potential. Remember that something like this already happened one when Yasu created the Catbox (spoiler tag because I really don't want to spoil the story of Umineko for those who might want to get into it, it's too good). Yasu was just a human at the time, yet "internally" she was a Witch, but only officially became one when Lambda showed up and Beatrice was "born". Something similar could probably happen when Beato realizes her full potential and evolves past the Domain of Witches.

Anyway, this is mostly speculations between us, and I don't see Ryukishi giving an answer to this, be it in the upcoming Umineko Saku or WTC 5.

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#49 Posted by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Edited by kilgpmktra (846 posts) - - Show Bio
@zgtfreak said:

@ovy7: Umineko Saku?

It's a new scenario that'll be released alongside the new WTC

People are saying it will be Umineko's episode 9 or something