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#1 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread is the Battle of the Week for 5/26/2014 - 6/2/2014.

Dr. Light (Veshark)

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The Mandarin (Sovereign91001)

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Brainiac 8 (kidman560)

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Posting Order

All debaters must follow this order; if you have a point-of-contention to raise - either wait for your turn or post it in the group PM. As agreed, this debate will have a Four-Round Limit. When the last round is complete, we'll go straight to voting. Each round comprises of the following order:

  1. The Mandarin (Sovereign91001)
  2. Dr. Light (Veshark)
  3. Brainiac 8 (kidman560)

Conditions

  • Combatants have basic knowledge on one another's capabilities
  • Win by KO, Death, or Incap - BFR is disallowed
  • Dr. Light is Pre-52 and in his prime

Battleground: Liberty Island

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  • All three combatants start at opposite ends of the island
  • The battleground is heavily-populated with innocent civilians
  • Combatants who damage the Statue of Liberty will be referred to as 'Commie' for the duration of the debate (which is...kinda fitting for Mandarin)
  • The battle isn't allowed to leave the island; and temporary removal from the island (e.g. falling into water) does not count as a win
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#2 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001 @kidman560 Apologies for the late OP, my Internet has been erratic as hell these past few days. If you guys have any issues with the Posting Order, or if you want to throw in a Condition for your character, feel free to. As previously agreed, this debate will have a 4-Round Limit.

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#3 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll be watching.

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#4 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark no i can dig it... i'd like to go last though (if thats cool with everyone else)

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#5 Posted by FukYouRenchamp (7109 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: Is Dr. Light a good or bad guy?

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#6 Posted by Night4345 (8450 posts) - - Show Bio

@pr0metheus: He's a villain

Looks like a interesting CAV

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#7 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560 Yup, you already are going last, mate.

@pr0metheus Arthur Light is a bad guy in the Pre-52 universe, most notoriously known for raping Sue Dibny - the Elongated Man's wife. In the New-52, Dr. Light is a member of ARGUS, and more of a tragic figure. Another Dr. Light is the heroine Kimiyo Hoshi - who wears a similar looking costume (Arthur stole it from her father).

You may have gotten them confused?

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#8 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark@kidman560

Looks good gents. I just got home, I'll have something up tonight. I'm looking forward to this. :D

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#10 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: I'll have my response to our team CAV up today.

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#12 Posted by KingAres109 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingares109 thats brainiac 8... she was a sleeper agent in the outsiders... for he feats you'll have to wait and see

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#14 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio

looks good.

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#15 Posted by KingAres109 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42655 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't wait to read this, 3 very cool characters that I would love to learn more about.

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#17 Edited by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark@kidman560

Before we start something to get the mood right and bring up some nostalgia for the Iron Man fans who may be reading this.

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Season 2 was more hype...but dat mullet...

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Anyway, enough goofing off, let's get down to business.

The Mandarin

Arguably Iron Man's most iconic foe. The Mandarin is a fairly complex character, he's been depicted in various ways over the years. From an eco-terrorist, to a businessman, to a eugenicist, to a servant of the Makluan rings he is so well known for weilding.

Speaking of the rings:

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These descriptions are fairly generic but they give you guys a general idea of what the rings are capable of. Now while probably not as well known as his famous rings, the Mandarin is actually a very accomplished h2h combatant and much like Iron Fist he can channel Chi, to enhance his blows, sustain his lifeforce and increase his reaction time.

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As you can see he is a casual bullet timer, it should be noted that he'd been in prision for years, and had lost his hands.

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So if I need to engage your teams in h2h I can. As for the match I'll have the Mandarin use his Matter rearranging ring to animate the statue of Liberty and and send it after Kidman.

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And I'll animate a stone man and have it go after Veshark. While he's dealing with that, I'll have Mandarin move in and and see if I can whammy him.

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Because I'm unsure how much you guys know about The Mandarin, here is a durability showing.

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One more showing, this time taking on the Avengers, he does pretty well.

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Nothing too fancy yet, consider this more of a feeling out process so I can see what your guys are capable of. And with that I'll end my post for this round and pass the mic to @veshark

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#19 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001@kidman560 Awesome post, Sov, and it looks like it's my turn now. Good luck to all the debaters involved, and let's do our best to make this an engaging and entertaining debate. With that said, let's get cracking with Round 1.

"Let there be light."

Introduction

Without a doubt, Dr. Light is certainly one of the most infamous villains in DC's repertoire. He is perhaps best known for the events of Identity Crisis, where his actions scarred the entire Justice League for years to come. A quick summary for those unfamiliar with the character: Arthur Light started out as a brilliant physicist, whose work led to him gaining light-manipulation powers. His supervillain career has led him to take on entire rosters of the JLA & Teen Titans, and he's also had multiple team-ups with his fellow bad guys in the Fearsome Five & the Injustice League.

Arthur Light's powers make him one of the most formidable and underrated villains in the DCU. A team-buster-level character when he wants to be; his control of light in all its forms makes him an extremely versatile combatant. The Doctor possesses the ability to project light blasts, fly at light-speeds, generate force-fields, and even transform his own mass into a pure light form. Added to that is his own genius intellect, and Dr. Light packs both brains and brawn.

Now with that light summary out of the way (see what I did there), let's get on with this debate:

Dr. Light’s Capabilities

To start with, the most basic use of Dr. Light’s powers are his light blast projections. Dr. Light has a seemingly infinite reservoir of power to tap into, and his light blasts are his primary offensive measure in every battle. To give a general overview of what Arthur's light blasts are capable of, I'll be using the following set of scans where Dr. Light goes toe-to-toe with his opposite number: the heroic Kimiyo Hoshi.

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To put this into perspective; at her peak - Kimiyo Hoshi possessed enough power to channel the energy of an anti-matter star and fire a blast that tore through the Anti-Monitor's armor. She is easily a top-tier DCU heroine, and while she is a little rusty in this fight, Kimiyo certainly isn't a pushover. So it certainly says a lot about Arthur, when he can match Kimiyo Hoshi's light-manipulation powers with his own. In fact, he wins this battle by draining her of all her power, and Kimiyo remains depowered until Dwayne McDuffie's JLA run.

Aside from sheer power, Dr. Light's blasts are also extremely potent in terms of speed. The Mandarin may be a bullet-timer, but is he faster than light? Dr. Light’s light blasts were quick enough to tag a flying Superman (who had just speed-blitzed and BFRed the Parasite).

And a single shot was able to hurt Supes enough to ground him, and even make him shout in pain. Then Light tag-teamed with Fatality, Killer Frost, and Gorilla Grodd to KO the Man of Steel:

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And in terms of his own speed, Dr. Light is also hardly a slouch himself. Aside from being able to fly at light-speeds (showcasing his mobility), Arthur also has top-notch reflexes, as you would expect from someone who commands light. In this next showing, Dr. Light takes on both Connor Hawke & Mia Dearden:

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Anyone who knows a thing about these two archers know that they can fire off an immense rate of arrows. And yet Dr. Light actually possesses enough reaction time/perception to open up a light-portal for each individual arrow, effortlessly BFRing the entire barrage of shots.

Then when Mia distracts Dr. Light long enough for Connor to fire a machine-gun at him – Arthur is still fast enough to turn around and pull up a force-field to block those bullets. With enough reflexes to react to bullets, it goes to show that Dr. Light isn't lacking in the speed department at all.

To add, here’s another combat speed feat for the good Doctor. Kid Flash (Bart Allen) is speeding towards him, and Arthur is able to respond by firing off a single, accurate burst of light that tears straight through the speedster's kneecap. Doc Light's command of his powers even enable him to tag foes with superhuman speed levels:

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With his offensive capabilities & reaction time covered, let’s move on to Dr. Light’s defenses. Dr. Light is able to generate powerful force-fields to protect himself. The following are assorted force-field feats. These aren’t his best ones, I’m saving those for later, but the scans here should give you two a general idea of Light’s defenses:

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  1. Force-field tanks multiple explosive arrows from Green Arrow
  2. Force-field reflects Starfire’s starbolt via light-manipulation (this will be useful against Mandarin’s Incandescence ring or Brainiac 8’s lasers)
  3. Force-field reflects Starfire’s starbolt once again
  4. Dr. Light’s personal force-field tanks a punch from Cyborg (20-tonner, if memory serves)
  5. Force-field absorbs the blasts of Halo, another light-manipulator

It’s also important to note that Dr. Light can also make his force-fields invisible (in fact, it may be artistic license in the panels above for the reader to see the fields). This is illustrated in the feat below, when Wally West runs straight into Dr. Light’s invisible force-field:

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Dr. Light’s Opening Strategy

As for Dr. Light’s play in this battle, the first thing I want to stress is that Light is an extremely cunning foe. He enjoys ambushing his enemies, and I’d argue that in this scenario – knowing that there are two other combatants on the island – he won’t take Mandarin or Brainiac 8 on in direct combat. Light isn’t a brute or a powerhouse, he’s a thinker.

Dr. Light is going to stay out of the crossfire and leave Mandarin and Brainiac 8 to fight amongst one another. And when their clash has ended, Arthur will ambush the weakened survivor, and win this match. The first move Dr. Light will make once the battle commences is to immediately activate his cloaking:

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As shown in the scans above, Dr. Light’s invisibility was so effective that Superman, Vixen, and Black Canary were all unable to detect him and his Injustice League teammates. Superman’s x-ray and telescopic vision failed to locate Light, as did Vixen’s powers (she has Clark’s abilities in this issue).

It’s only when Vixen’s super-hearing picks up their heartbeats that they’re detected – which I believe won’t be valid in our debate, as neither Mandarin nor Brainiac 8 have super-hearing. Even if they did have it, it’s questionable if they’ll use it as a) They don’t know Light’s invisible and b) In the chaos of battle and with the civilians, it’s doubtful they’ll hear or pinpoint Arthur.

And in a similar showing, Cyborg, Raven, Wonder Girl, and Mia Dearden were all also unable to detect a cloaked Dr. Light:

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Alternatively, Dr. Light could also conceal himself by converting into his light form. In the first scan below, the Doctor converts into light form and escapes from his prison cell by traveling through a light-bulb:

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And in these next two scans, Dr. Light transforms into his light form again and hitches a ride on a car’s headlight.

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Literally any source of light can be used as a hiding place for Arthur once he’s in light form. While Mandarin and Brainiac 8 are duking it out, Dr. Light can conceal himself and observe the battle from any light source on Liberty Island, be it a camera or a cellphone screen.

Regardless of the method, with an invisible Dr. Light, Mandarin’s stone-man construct will be pointless as it’ll be unable to locate the Doctor. And the Mandarin can’t very well use his mind-control on a foe he can’t even see or target.

So the general idea of this strategy is that while Mandarin & Brainiac 8 are occupied with one another, they’ll be too busy to think about Dr. Light. In that time, Light can study his opponents and ready his power for his eventual ambush. In fact, Arthur can even help speed things up by nerfing one of the two villains.

For instance, say the Mandarin is engaging Brainiac 8. Dr. Light could just sneak up to the Mandarin. And then leech the light from the Mandarin’s optic nerves, essentially rendering the villain blind, much like he did to Kyle Rayner:

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A blind Mandarin will be a far easier target for Brainiac 8 to handle. By intentionally helping one villain, Light could take one of you two out of the equation first. Or he might even make both of you sustain more damage, as I’d imagine that a blinded Mandarin would lash out in panic. Either way, Dr. Light profits the most here.

As for what Dr. Light will do once either Mandarin or Brainiac 8 has fallen, I’ll leave that for my next response. This is more of an outline of Dr. Light’s opening moves, but rest assured that he has plenty of fight in him to take either villain down later.

Also, regarding Mandarin’s fight vs. the Avengers, I feel like one has to specify that showing so the voters don't get the wrong idea. He didn’t exactly do well. Mandarin did decent against Captain America, Black Widow, & Hellcat – all of whom are leagues below his power-level. But once the Avengers’ big guns like Thor and Wonder Man showed up, the Mandarin just ran away. Not exactly a team-busting showing, there.

To conclude, Doctor Light's strategy for our CaV basically boils down to him allowing the Mandarin & Brainiac 8 to do his job for him. By concealing and benching himself, Light's stratagem gives him to opportunity to gather his strength as well as study his opponents' powers. While Mandarin & Brainiac 8 wear themselves out by exchanging blows, Arthur will be waiting like a silent predator for the perfect chance to ambush the last villain standing.

With my first post complete, I'll pass the mic over to @kidman560. Indigo, you're up.

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#23 Posted by dorukesin (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

I would love to see how @kidman560 will defend Braniac 8,tag me for the votes

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#24 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet opener, Dr Light is indeed a predator

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#25 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

alrighty @veshark and @sovereign91001

time for the most tragic of the 3 to shine

Indigo/ Brainiac 8

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when Brainiac 8 first arrived on the seen she was damage badly... she was looking for some computer to interface with, eventually this led her to Cyborg

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an insueing fight with Cyborg and the Titains occurs... i didnt post the full fight because if her beating up people like Nightwing really matters in this debate than we have problems... the important thing to note while damaged (we are talking less than 15% power here) she took out Super Boy and took a punch from Donna Troy (class 85 at the minimum) she then manages to teleport (yeah she can do that)

to...

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Starr labs... with 8% power remaining she bursts down the door, takes some impressive hits and shocks everyone... she ends up interfacing with a superman android and such but this is the last we see of the "Brainiac 8" persona for a while

Indigo

she is the much nicer Brainiac 8... the one that everybody likes

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as for Dr. Lights cloaking she can sense wavelengths which is what light, quite coincidentally the stuff Dr. Light Manipulates, is so she will sense the wave lengths being manipulated and be able to determine where Dr. Light is hiding

Her Energy Blasts are on Par with Jades... she and Jade are the only ones with enough power to go through to stop this Cult thing (it can get really confusing if you didnt read the book) ... and Jade is just allong for the Ride at the bottom Indigo says "Ill show you what to blow up"

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Other skills

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she has shields that she can put up (and ill show you how strong they can get in a second) and can shoot energy out of her eyes while they are up

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her shields were able to survive having a base explode around her and she is then able keep them up until Metamorpho can pull her out

she has an EMP blast but until it becomes apparent that she needs i will hold off

she has also taken licks from a PO'ed Jade, Thunder (think Vision Density control), and Starfire and survive but for now i think i have what i need

@sovereign91001

the Statue of Liberty seriously? im hurt thats all you send at me. regardless my Energy Blasts make short work of it like seriously if i fly behind it and take it out at the knees it could quite literally collapse on you (if angeled right)

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given my character has the speed to do just that i think thats exactly what i will do

so here are the steps

1. Brainiac 8 uses her speed to fly behind the Statue of Liberty (or through it if she prefers)

2. she shoots out its legs (given that she is on par with Jade i think she can do it) at the appropriate angel so that the Statue of Liberty comes crashing down.

3. she then uses her speed to get out of the way as animated Statue of Liberty comes crashing down...

4. if it collapses on either of your characters freaking great if not... she simply waits for one of you guys to drop (hopefully its Dr.Light as he would be much more difficult but not impossible to attack or until she is attacked (no use in tiring her self out here)

tbh i dont see how you guys are going to be Brainiac 8 she was manhandling Jade, Starfire, and Thundra all at the same time without a scratch. to beat her Shift had to Manipulate her into an organic which killed her

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thus concluding the tragic story of Brainiac 8

if you need a moment to cry i understand... i did too.

any ways @sovereign91001 you need to do 2 things

1. post here

2. go to our Black Panther vs Backlash and make another post (tbh im fine with either)

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#26 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting challenge a viner.

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#27 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Brianiac 8 didn't die there

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#28 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave last time i read the comic (which i admit was not recently) she told shift to kill her after she realized that Brainiac 8 persona would soon take over again. he turned her into an organic right which ended her life?

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#29 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark@kidman560 Great posts guys (as expected), I'll have something for you later tonight.

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#31 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave Thanks, mate ;)

@sovereign91001 Is it me, or does it seem like we're getting more interest in this CAV than our other one? I think it's because all three of our characters aren't exactly Battle board regulars haha.

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#32 Edited by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: That probably is a large part of it.

Round 2: Enter The Mandarin

@veshark I don't have to much I can do against your 'hide and hangout' strategy at the moment but I can use Nightbringer to deal with Light's attacks, so I'll leave @kidman560 to deal with you. However if Light attacks The Mandarin, his rings react to his needs instinctively, here incandescence generates a null field around him to save him from Dragon Fire. The rings have sentience and can act accordingly.

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The white light ring (Daimonic) and the Darkforce ring (Nightbringer) should be able to offer him protection from Light and his attacks.

As I said to both of you, the Statue and Rockman were just feelers, and I didn't expect either to deal any critical damage to your teams. As for Kidman aka Commie (you destroyed a symbol of freedom, shame...shame!) Mandarin can use the Ice ring (Zero) on Braniac to lower the tempature inside her shield bubble and freeze her, the ring can reduce tempeture's to near absolute zero.

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Or (Influence) the impact ring, a casual usage of which was able to do this to Rhodey in the Iron Man armor

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That kind of force should breach her shields if a building blast is her best durability feat with them.

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#33 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001 i swear if i dont see your post on our black panther vs backlash i will track you down man... TRACK YOU DOWN!

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#34 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560: I'm finishing up a post for another debate as we speak, after that my plate will be emptied a bit and I can really concentrate on the CaV, I'm not going to let it flounder lol.

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#35 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001 @kidman560 Alright, Round 2 is rolling and here's my response:

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Countering Mandarin & Brainiac 8

To kick off my rebuttal, I’ll be addressing both Mandarin and Brainiac 8’s counterstrategies for Dr. Light’s plan. First up, regarding Indigo’s ability to sense wavelengths, I honestly don’t think that that’ll be a valid solution here. The first issue is that it’s doubtful that an in-character Brainiac 8’s first move would be to actively search for wavelength manipulation.

While she does have basic knowledge on Dr. Light’s powers, Brainiac 8 won’t initially know for certain that he’ll be cloaked. More to the point, she will likely be too busy dealing with Mandarin’s rings & the animated Lady Liberty to worry about the Doctor. I’m not saying she can’t do it, but whether or not she can implement it in this particular scenario is questionable.

But the second issue I want to raise is that even in the event that Brainiac 8 does try to sense for unusual wavelengths – she still shouldn’t be able to detect Dr. Light. Manipulating light is Arthur’s job description, and the entire electromagnetic spectrum is under his command. I have no doubt that Dr. Light’s abilities can conceal him from Brainiac 8’s sensors.

In the cloaking scan, I showed how Dr. Light was able to conceal himself and his colleagues with such skill that even Superman and Vixen could not detect him. And keep in mind that Clark’s vision enables him to scan on every wavelength of the EM spectrum:

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If Dr. Light’s cloaking wasn’t up to par, Superman and Vixen (who has Superman’s abilities here) should have been able to detect any ‘unusual wavelengths’. Clark even tells Vixen to scan the entire room, and she turns up with nothing. And don’t forget the Titans scan I posted, where even Cyborg’s sensors failed to register Light’s presence.

To further cement my point, in this next showing, Dr. Light increases the wavelength of visible light to essentially blind the Justice League:

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Then, by manipulating Superman Blue’s energy form, he transforms Superman into radio waves and transmits him out into the solar system at light speed. The two things that are key in the scans above are 1) Dr. Light explicitly states he can manipulate wavelengths and 2) Martian Manhunter confirms that Light controls the entire EM spectrum.

Given that Dr. Light’s command of light is so extensive, and that we’ve seen him remaining undetected against opponents with arguably more perception feats than Brainiac 8, I think it’s fair to say that Arthur will remain hidden until he strikes. I believe this is applicable for both Dr. Light’s cloaking, as well as his light form.

As for the Mandarin, allow me to address the Nightbringer & Daimonic rings. First up, regarding the Nightbringer: you haven’t shown any feats for this particular ring’s capabilities, but just based off the descriptions given, it can apparently generate a ‘black light’ that absorbs all light.

Conveniently enough, Dr. Light is also capable of generating his own variety of black light. And even then, his powers still remain active. Complete darkness does not hamper the Doctor at all, and even the absence of light is in Arthur's ballpark. Remember that his powers go far beyond simply commanding 'light' in itself.

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I’ll probably need some showings to fully understand what Nightbringer actually does, but just based off this general assumption, I don’t believe it’ll be an obstacle to Dr. Light (and that’s even only if we work with the postulation that Mandarin actually tags Light).

Moving on to the Daimonic ring, I have an inquiry first: what exactly is the Daimonic ring’s maximum power & range? I’ve read that instance with Ezekiel Stane, and as shown; Mandarin used the ring at close-range, and Stane has zero TP resistance to my knowledge. Based on this one feat alone, it seems as though Dr. Light can either stay out-of-range or resist the ring.

And in the event that Dr. Light is hit by the Daimonic ring, it should be noted that Light has shown a degree of resistance to mental attacks. The first point I want to mention is that Dr. Light will likely be enraged at a TP attack because of what Zatanna did to his brain. This rage will definitely play a part if Light’s mind is tampered with, and I’ll explain why below:

In the following scan, Light is attacked by Raven – and Raven here is using one of her most powerful attacks, her soul-self:

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For those unfamiliar with the character, Raven’s soul-self is basically a psychic entity capable of stripping its targets of emotion or causing them to experience their worst nightmares. But here it fails to work on Dr. Light at all, as his hate is so powerful that Raven can’t absorb it all, and Arthur is seemingly able to even deflect the soul-self.

His hate is so overwhelming that Raven – one of the most powerful empaths – gets knocked out by his emotions. Now while I realize that there’s an inherent difference between telepathy and empathy, I believe the general principle here is sound, as both are psychic in nature.

If Dr. Light’s pure hate allows him to so easily reflect such a powerful psychic attack, I think Arthur can resist the Daimonic ring long enough to respond with his own powers. Or at the very least, to convert his mass into light-form, since I don’t believe mind-control can work on a beam of photons.

And I don’t believe you’ve addressed what Mandarin will do if Light decides to intervene in the battle? Dr. Light can easily strip the light from Mandarin’s optic nerve and render him blind. Causing the Mandarin to have a distinct disadvantage against Brainiac 8. And since you yourself conceded that Mandarin can’t do anything to detect Light, and as I’ve already refuted Brainiac 8’s sensors, this is quite a feasible development.

Dr. Light vs. Brainiac 8

As it stands, I believe that Dr. Light’s strategy remains valid in this CaV. To reiterate: Light remains concealed and studies both his opponents until one of them falls. I don’t think Brainiac 8’s plan to drop the animated Lady Liberty is going to work on Dr. Light though.

Firstly because it’s ineffective if he’s in light-form, and secondly because I doubt Arthur’s going to be anywhere that close to the actual battle. He’ll be observing from a considerable distance, and I think he has enough intelligence to avoid the path of a giant walking statue.

Now assuming all goes to plan, in the scenario that Brainiac 8 beats Mandarin and is the last villain standing, Light will have to best her to take this battle. I’ll cover how Arthur will handle a one-on-one versus Mandarin in my next post, but for now let’s just deal with Indigo. Primarily, I want to focus on Brainiac 8’s main abilities: energy blasts and force-fields.

In short, my main counter is that both of these powers will be largely ineffective against Dr. Light. It appears Indigo’s energy blasts are her main means of offense, and force-fields are her main means of defense…but both are susceptible to Dr. Light’s powers because they’re energy-based. Basically, Dr. Light is capable of controlling them.

You mentioned that Brainiac 8’s energy blasts are on par with Jade? Here’s a set of scans where Dr. Light takes control of Jade’s ring construct and uses it against her (Jade has a GL ring at the time, not her Starheart powers):

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And in these next scans, Dr. Light easily seizes control of Kyle Rayner’s construct and is actually able to create his own construct via manipulating that Lantern energy. Rayner's ring fails to reestablish control over his own constructs, and Light even turns them against their ringbearer. Even Oan energy can be manipulated by Light, and he can even circumvent the ring’s mechanics:

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Lastly, in the following feat, Dr. Light is able to seize control of both Superboy’s heat-vision – literally draining the Kryptonian-human of his own superpower - and Wonder Girl's lasso lightning. And he’s also able to redirect Wonder Girl’s magical lightning back at her, before seizing control of it too:

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And as a little side annotation, in this one scan, Dr. Light shows off more of his command of the spectrum by generating lasers:

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Once again, going back to my earlier point, the entire EM spectrum is Dr. Light’s playground. I’ve showed him being able to command and affect:

  1. Superboy’s heat-vision
  2. Wonder Girl’s magic lightning from her lasso
  3. The Oan power rings of Kyle Rayner & Jade
  4. Starfire’s starbolts
  5. Kimiyo Hoshi’s energy, which is derived from the star of Vega
  6. Superman Blue’s energy form

That’s six different types of energy that I’ve shown Dr. Light forcibly seizing control of and manipulating.

If Brainiac 8 decides to blast Dr. Light with her energy beams, what’s stopping Dr. Light from simply redirecting them and turning them back to the android? Or absorbing that energy and using it himself? And if Brainiac 8 activates her force-fields, Dr. Light can easily cause them to dissipate with a wave of his hand, as they’re presumably energy-based as well.

Brainiac 8’s energy beams and force-fields will simply give Light more ammunition to use in their battle. Now as for how Dr. Light will actually defeat Brainiac 8 and destroy her physical form - and as for his actual strategy - I’ll leave that for my third post.

You're up, kidman.

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#36 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: for some reason i was not tagged

As it stands, I believe that Dr. Light’s strategy remains valid in this CaV. To reiterate: Light remains concealed and studies both his opponents until one of them falls. I don’t think Brainiac 8’s plan to drop the animated Lady Liberty is going to work on Dr. Light though.

given that Brainiac 8 can sense electromagnetic waves (specifically ones that are being manipulated) i believe that she will be able to sense the light waves that Dr. Light is manipulating

Firstly because it’s ineffective if he’s in light-form, and secondly because I doubt Arthur’s going to be anywhere that close to the actual battle. He’ll be observing from a considerable distance, and I think he has enough intelligence to avoid the path of a giant walking statue.

ehh wishful thinking...

Now assuming all goes to plan, in the scenario that Brainiac 8 beats Mandarin and is the last villain standing, Light will have to best her to take this battle. I’ll cover how Arthur will handle a one-on-one versus Mandarin in my next post, but for now let’s just deal with Indigo. Primarily, I want to focus on Brainiac 8’s main abilities: energy blasts and force-fields.

go ahead

In short, my main counter is that both of these powers will be largely ineffective against Dr. Light. It appears Indigo’s energy blasts are her main means of offense, and force-fields are her main means of defense…but both are susceptible to Dr. Light’s powers because they’re energy-based. Basically, Dr. Light is capable of controlling them.

i would say that teleporting would be another method of defense that she is quite capable of doing...

You mentioned that Brainiac 8’s energy blasts are on par with Jade? Here’s a set of scans where Dr. Light takes control of Jade’s ring construct and uses it against her (Jade has a GL ring at the time, not her Starheart powers):

i meant power wise... now its entirely possible that Dr. Light can manipulate these blasts (provided he doesnt come down with a classic case of the CIS) but thats ok i have plans for this

And in these next scans, Dr. Light easily seizes control of Kyle Rayner’s construct and is actually able to create his own construct via manipulating that Lantern energy. Rayner's ring fails to reestablish control over his own constructs, and Light even turns them against their ringbearer. Even Oan energy can be manipulated by Light, and he can even circumvent the ring’s mechanics:

starting to wish i had chose Nathaniel Essex but thats too late now... i believe that Dr. Light is capable of manipulating Energy but I still dont see how hes going to hurt Brainiac 8.

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lol i love this bit... after Brainiac 8 gets done with Jade (no damage) Starfire burns her hand and sends her through the street. and Brainiac still isnt hurt... and there were no force-fields

  1. Superboy’s heat-vision
  2. Wonder Girl’s magic lightning from her lasso
  3. The Oan power rings of Kyle Rayner & Jade
  4. Starfire’s starbolts
  5. Kimiyo Hoshi’s energy, which is derived from the star of Vega
  6. Superman Blue’s energy form

all great points but still no sign of how you will harm braniac 8

If Brainiac 8 decides to blast Dr. Light with her energy beams, what’s stopping Dr. Light from simply redirecting them and turning them back to the android? Or absorbing that energy and using it himself? And if Brainiac 8 activates her force-fields, Dr. Light can easily cause them to dissipate with a wave of his hand, as they’re presumably energy-based as well.

Brainiac 8’s energy beams and force-fields will simply give Light more ammunition to use in their battle. Now as for how Dr. Light will actually defeat Brainiac 8 and destroy her physical form - and as for his actual strategy - I’ll leave that for my third post.

You're up, kidman.

Teleportation to dodge the redirected blast, tank it since i doubt it will hurt her. Dr. Light has shown no ability to hurt her as it seems all his victories have been with help or they have been draining... he has neither here. i believe that Brainiac 8 could simply play dead also and wait for Dr. Light to leave his light form and then Physically beat him... Seeing as the only way that the Outsiders could beat her was by Manipulating her into an organic (which no one could do here)

vs The Mandarin

I would state that nothing the Mandarin has done will be able to permanently put down Indigo... her force fields can tank a moderate amount of damage and her body can tank extreme amounts of damage.

and can dish out just as much... shes also stronger and faster than your average Iron Man, so Mandarin will need to be moving fast...

His rings can do allot but nothing that would put Brainiac 8 down for the count. if you can give me something new i might be more willing to expand on this but given Brainiac 8's speed, teleportation, and durability i dont see her having to much trouble putting him down. like for example...

As I said to both of you, the Statue and Rockman were just feelers, and I didn't expect either to deal any critical damage to your teams. As for Kidman aka Commie (you destroyed a symbol of freedom, shame...shame!) Mandarin can use the Ice ring (Zero) on Braniac to lower the tempature inside her shield bubble and freeze her, the ring can reduce tempeture's to near absolute zero.

her sensors would pick up on the lowering temperatures and she would simply teleport away...

Or (Influence) the impact ring, a casual usage of which was able to do this to Rhodey in the Iron Man armor

her own durability is far greater than her shields (which i admit seems kind of stupid now that I think about it). if Rhodey could tank it than Brainiac 8 should have no problem. @sovereign91001

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#37 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560@veshark Good stuff guys. I'll try to have something up in the next 24.

Take your time, mate. I've got a crapton of work to do these next few days, so I won't be able to post a reply so soon anyway.

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#39 Edited by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 3: Counterattack

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Doctor Light

@veshark

It eats light, Infrared doesn't work, Ultraviolet doesn't work about the only thing Tony has been able to use to counter the effects of Nightbringer is the sonic filter in his Iron Man Suit.

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Daimonic is the white light ring, it can control energy along the EM spectrum including, it can even control gravity.

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The Liar is the hypno ring (also known as Mento Intensifier) that one is range dependent so it'll only work if Dr. Light is within 20 feet or so. Even if he can't whammy Doctor Light he can use illusions to mess with his mind/throw off his aim.

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I think the combination of Daimonic and Nightbringer should largely negate any offense Light brings to bear. This will let him bring one of his other rings to bear, as far as I know Light needs to breath still. Mandarin could turn the air around him to toxic gas.

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Brainiac

You claimed nothing I've shown will put Brainiac down, so what are her resistance feats to extreme temperature? I believe Zero and Incandescence could do a number on her.

What is her resistance to Molecular Manipulation? What if The Mandarin were to turn her into something like say a beetle?

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Or Paralyze her

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Or even use the disintergrator beam which is strong enough to dissolve Iron Man's Modular armor.

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Since she is synthetic I imagine magnatism and electrical discharge would be effective as well.

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I think that'll do for this round. @veshark you're up sir.

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#40 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio
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Dr. Light vs. Brainiac 8

To be honest, I don’t think you’ve really refuted my argument, @kidman560.

For starters, your counter for why Brainiac 8 can detect Dr. Light seems to boil down to ‘because she can’. You didn’t address my points on Light’s ability to manipulate wavelengths and the EM spectrum, the fact that characters with greater sensory feats than Brainiac failed to detect Light, or that Brainiac 8 would likely be too preoccupied with Mandarin.

As for my tactic regarding Brainiac 8’s energy blasts and force-fields, I think you may have missed my point here. I never said that Dr. Light controlling Indigo’s energy would defeat her, or that it was Light’s sole strategy. In fact, I very clearly stated that a definitive method to beat Brainiac 8 would come in a later post:

Brainiac 8’s energy beams and force-fields will simply give Light more ammunition to use in their battle. Now as for how Dr. Light will actually defeat Brainiac 8 and destroy her physical form - and as for his actual strategy - I’ll leave that for my third post.

My points on Dr. Light’s energy-manipulation were not a means to defeat her, but rather to prove that Brainiac 8’s most-significant powers will be ineffective versus Light. It’s not a question of Light harming Brainiac. Rather, that Brainiac will have a harder time if her blasts & force-fields are useless against an opponent who can effortlessly manipulate both.

In this scenario, which you appear to have conceded to, Brainiac 8’s only means of hurting Dr. Light is physical strength. It doesn’t matter that Brainiac 8 can tank her own blasts, that’s not my point. My argument was emphasizing the fact that Dr. Light can easily nullify two of Brainiac 8’s fundamental combat options. And so lower the threat that she poses.

I’m not sure what you mean about all of Dr. Light’s victories have him draining or needing help, seeing as how it isn’t true. The only scan I’ve shown where Light had help was the Superman one, and the only scan where he won via draining alone was versus Kimiyo Hoshi. As for Brainiac 8’s playing-dead strategy, well…it seems a little far-fetched.

You might have to go deeper into detail if you’re really running with this tactic. If Dr. Light remains in his light form, is Brainiac simply going to lie on the ground until he turns back to normal? Or if Dr. Light assumes Brainiac is dead and just teleports away, thinking he’s won – then what? It’s a strategy that hinges too much on assuming Light will act a certain way.

Anyway, allow me to finally delve into how Dr. Light will defeat Brainiac 8, assuming it comes down to the two of them. For starters, Arthur will remain in his light form for the duration of this fight, for obvious reasons. In this form and with his own light-manipulation powers, Brainiac 8 has no means to hurt the Doctor.

Indigo can’t defeat him via physical strength, and she can’t defeat him with her energy blasts either. Light has effectively neutered any threat that Brainiac 8 might pose to him. Now it’s Brainiac 8 who can’t hurt Dr. Light at all. And I’d also note that while Indigo only has basic knowledge on Arthur, Light should know far more about her powers after watching her fight with the Mandarin.

Once Brainiac 8 has defeated the Mandarin, Light will ambush her with a group of holograms. Obviously, Brainiac should be able to tell that they’re not real, but the holograms don’t need to fool her or even defeat her. They’re just there to distract her.

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In fact, Dr. Light will be using a very specific type of holographic tactic – the soligram. These are essentially hard-light holograms that have physical form. Light first used this strategy during his time with the Injustice League; where he developed them with Mirror Master & Luthor. They created a holographic ‘Revenge Squad’ to fight the JLA…

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…And later built an artificial holographic satellite to lure Electric Blue Superman & Martian Manhunter. They then gave the Joker control of the hologram, allowing him to manipulate it and make the satellite a reflection of his own insane psyche:

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Most-recently, Dr. Light used several of these soligrams to distract Superman. And the scans below should illustrate how useful these things are. They’re impervious to physical harm, energy-based attacks only slow them down; they’re strong enough to send Superman flying through a reinforced metal floor, and fast enough to keep up with Supes too:

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In short, a few of these soligrams are more than enough to keep Brainiac 8 occupied. For all her power, Indigo can’t entirely hurt them…while they can hurt her (to an extent). And while Brainiac 8 is busy fighting these hard-light images, Dr. Light will be using this opportunity to hit the android where it hurts.

Remember, first off, that Arthur is in light form here. That means that he’ll be moving at near-light-speeds, operating faster than even Brainiac can keep up with. In the scan below, the captions describe Arthur’s light form as, “[moving] not much slower than the speed of light” and “[moving] so fast that the world slows down around [Dr. Light]”:

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And allow me to throw in a quick scan of Dr. Light’s flight speed when he’s in standard form:

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So while Brainiac 8 is distracted and fighting the soligrams, Arthur should be more than capable of using his superior speed to strike the android. He can dissipate her force-fields if she tries to activate them, or redirect her energy blasts if she tries to assault the soligrams. And before you bring up Indigo's use of teleportation to evade Dr. Light’s moves…

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…Yup, Light’s more than capable of teleportation as well, so that really won’t do much aside from slowing the inevitable.

Now, you keep reiterating that Brainiac 8’s body can ‘tank extreme amounts of damage’, but you haven’t posted many showings to prove this point. I’m not saying you’re inaccurate; just that you haven’t given much visual proof. By my count, the only durability showings you’ve posted are her tanking a) a hit from Donna Troy and b) a charge from Starfire.

Your own scan shows how Brainiac 8’s hand was fried off by a single starbolt from Starfire. And another earlier scan you posted has Arsenal being able to shoot off Indigo’s skeletal arm with his pistols (which says a little about the durability of her internal skeleton). What’s stopping Dr. Light from simply decapitating Brainiac 8’s head by shooting her neck?

I’ve already given you a feat where a single blast from Dr. Light not only hits a speed-blitzing Superman…but the blast was powerful enough to make Superman cry out in pain, and make him drop out of the sky like a falling rock:

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And in the following pages, Dr. Light had enough power packed in one single burst to stun all of the Teen Titans and send the entire team flying:

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So while Brainiac 8 is busy tackling the soligrams, Dr. Light can just use his superior speed to maneuver around the android, and with one well-placed light burst…shoot her head off. Now I know Brainiac has a HF, but has she ever healed from a straight decapitation? And even if she could, I doubt she could do it fast enough before Light claims the Win via KO.

Dr. Light vs. The Mandarin

Your turn, @sovereign91001. Regarding the Liar ring; as I covered in my last post, Dr. Light can keep a distance with his powers (he’s more of a ranged fighter anyway), and in his light form should also be immune to mind-control. But as for illusions, I don’t believe they’ll be particularly effective either.

For one, Light’s a pretty skilled illusionist himself (as covered in the Brainiac 8 section above), and for another, he’s also shown enough discernment to tell the difference between trickery and reality. In the feat below, Mirage (who has psychic powers) tries to create a Superman illusion to fool Light, but he sees right through it:

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As for the Daimonic & Nightbringer rings, well Light's already faced off against foes with light and EM-spectrum manipulation powers before. I've already shown Arthur defeating Kimiyo Hoshi, and here's another instance where a Black Lantern Dr. Light fights her. Granted, he loses, but only because he was...well an undead dependent on a ring to survive, and he had the upper-hand for most of the fight. Aside from that, there's also another showing where Light defeats The Ray, another light-manipulator:

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As for the other seven rings the Mandarin has – it’ll be a little tedious to come up with counters for each specific ring. While Mandarin obviously has a lot of versatility and means to fight his opponents, Dr. Light won’t be taking him head-on in direct combat. Remember, Light will be observing Mandarin and know full-well that those rings are the main threats.

In the event that Mandarin defeats Brainiac 8, the first thing Dr. Light will do is to remove the Mandarin’s rings. While he’s still cloaked, Arthur will use his powers to teleport all ten rings away. I’ve already shown in the Brainiac 8 section how Light can teleport himself. But Arthur is also entirely capable of teleporting other objects with a single thought:

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In the showing above, Dr. Light is able to teleport Green Arrow away before teleporting himself. And in these next two pages, Light does the same to Mia Dearden:

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Finally, in perhaps the most pertinent scan, Dr. Light teleports the arrows on Green Arrow’s repeating crossbow away. It takes just a moment's thought for Light to simply hand-wave them away:

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The Mandarin’s rings may be able to sense his needs and protect him accordingly...but to my knowledge, there’s nothing stopping the rings themselves from simply being teleported away. During the Haunted arc, Iron Man himself was able to tear the rings out of the Mandarin’s spine (which were fused to him at the time), and there was nothing that stopped Tony:

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To reiterate; a cloaked Dr. Light will teleport Mandarin’s rings away in the blink of an eye. The move is instantaneous and unexpected (starting to sound like Graviton all over again, huh?), and Mandarin won’t be able to react until it’s too late. Light will preferably teleport the rings somewhere far enough that the Mandarin can’t recall them in time.

With the rings gone, Mandarin is down to just his chi-amping and martial arts skills. At which point Mandarin’s just a mid-tier brick, and way out of Dr. Light’s league. Arthur should then be able to finish him off and take this battle. Light could start off with a bright flash to blind Mandarin, which was able to stun Martian Manhunter (with the help of Silver Swan):

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And he’s also used it to stun a whole group of Justice Leaguers during Identity Crisis, enabling him and Deathstroke to make a speedy escape:

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With that done, Dr. Light can easily switch into a beam of photons and simply blitz Mandarin at light-speed. For all his enhanced durability, the Mandarin will eventually fall to repeated blasts from a photon beam moving at the speed-of-light:

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Now with all that said, I believe I've satisfactorily covered how Dr. Light will defeat both Mandarin & Brainiac 8 in single combat. I pass the floor over to you, kidman.

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#42 Edited by Saren (27910 posts) - - Show Bio

Every week, one thread containing the best setup and arguments will be pinned to spotlight it and encourage a higher standard of thread-making and debating. This week, this is that thread.

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#43 Posted by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren@veshark@sovereign91001

you guys this is awesome... ill try to have a post up but its memorial day and i have family that served... im gonna spend most of the day with them (sorry ive been busy with life and trying to make some money)

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#44 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidman560 Hey, no sweat, kidman. In your own time, bud. Memorial Day's an important time for everyone and it's all cool.

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#46 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

Great job conrads. This thread actually make me want to get back to the battles again!

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#48 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (12458 posts) - - Show Bio

As someone who used Doctor Light & made it to the final rounds of a HT Tournament with him - I'm blown away by this debate.

The setup is fantastic - it's so clean and easy to read.

All three of you are doing wonderful jobs debating your characters - just, wow.

This is totally deserving of the BOTW title - kudos to all of you, this has been such a joy to read.

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#49 Edited by kidman560 (7638 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001

You claimed nothing I've shown will put Brainiac down, so what are her resistance feats to extreme temperature? I believe Zero and Incandescence could do a number on her.

What is her resistance to Molecular Manipulation? What if The Mandarin were to turn her into something like say a beetle?

Molecular Manipulation has been the only permanent way to put her down... the only question is will the Mandarin realize this before he gets put down.

im willing to bet not. as ive said she was easily taking on the likes of Superboy and even Donna Troy at a severely low power level. she only fled because Kid Flash phased through her.

Or Paralyze her

wouldnt work shes all machines... nothing about her is biological. thats how the Outsiders beat her they transmuted her into organics

Or even use the disintergrator beam which is strong enough to dissolve Iron Man's Modular armor.

Starfire burned her hand off... guess what happened

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didnt do jack. so we have someone who is faster than Iron Man, More Durable than Iron Man and has a higher energy output (without being amped) than Iron Man. i wouldnt bank to much on this especially since as i said earlier shes faster than Iron Man.

Since she is synthetic I imagine magnatism and electrical discharge would be effective as well.

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she magnetizes the wall but shes not moving towards it. this means 1 of two things

1. she is resistant to magnets

or

2. she can control where she can be magnetized or not (either way im happy)

also seeing as she has her own EMP i wouldnt bank to much on shorting her out

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however given That Brainiac 8s superior fire power, speed, intelligence, and overall capabilities she should be able to put down Mandarin before he thinks about Molecularizing Brainiac 8

which is the only way he'll be able to put her down

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as ive shown shes tanked Jades constructs with a smile (Jade is a green lantern no matter how you want to look at it) and then took a stomp from someone who can control her own density (you can see the size of the hole) does it even bother Brainiac 8? no i think that Brainiac can use her teleportation and superior fire power to put down Mandarin.

@veshark woah scan heavy... hold on im wading through them

For starters, your counter for why Brainiac 8 can detect Dr. Light seems to boil down to ‘because she can’. You didn’t address my points on Light’s ability to manipulate wavelengths and the EM spectrum, the fact that characters with greater sensory feats than Brainiac failed to detect Light, or that Brainiac 8 would likely be too preoccupied with Mandarin.

well she has limited feats however given that Brainiac is in theory more advanced than the original brainiac its not entirely hard to believe (and supes lost Deathstroke for a time even though he had his X-ray vision, Superdorks X-ray vision is a plot on whether it works or not)

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so its not because she can... its because she should be able too. she senses when they are being manipulated. not where they are. so it is monumentally different that Supes X-ray vision anyways. also Brainiac 8s scanners are better than his vision in many other ways like...

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it doesnt have to be in her line of site. so she can more than likely sense where they are and than re direct one of Mandarins attacks towards the area where the light is being manipulated ,or send an AOE attack either would cause Dr. Light to reveal himself. Which in turn would reveal to both opponents that there is a third player out there.

My points on Dr. Light’s energy-manipulation were not a means to defeat her, but rather to prove that Brainiac 8’s most-significant powers will be ineffective versus Light. It’s not a question of Light harming Brainiac. Rather, that Brainiac will have a harder time if her blasts & force-fields are useless against an opponent who can effortlessly manipulate both.

not necessarily ive always viewed her force fields as rather useless. whats the point of a force field if your natural durability exceeds that of your force fields? while not having her energy attacks does cripple her somewhat shes displayed the physical strength needed to beat Dr. Light. you posted a scan of him getting hit and sent flyinh by Superboy and Wonder Girl so it can be done.

You might have to go deeper into detail if you’re really running with this tactic. If Dr. Light remains in his light form, is Brainiac simply going to lie on the ground until he turns back to normal? Or if Dr. Light assumes Brainiac is dead and just teleports away, thinking he’s won – then what? It’s a strategy that hinges too much on assuming Light will act a certain way.

not necessarily but ya know you make Dr.Light sound invincible... I mean its perfect he just stays in light cloak and then attacks right... he never looses... oh wait Dr.Light does loose he breaks this cloak all the time. I mean the way youre going Brainiac can just keep teleporting never staying in one place for a period of time... because she does this all the time in the comics...

Indigo can’t defeat him via physical strength, and she can’t defeat him with her energy blasts either. Light has effectively neutered any threat that Brainiac 8 might pose to him. Now it’s Brainiac 8 who can’t hurt Dr. Light at all. And I’d also note that while Indigo only has basic knowledge on Arthur, Light should know far more about her powers after watching her fight with the Mandarin.

thats a good point... if only Brainiac 8 didnt have a huge processor and already expansive knowledge of DC

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as evidenced here. also hes not really hiding anymore as ive said Brainiac 8 can sense electromagnetic disruptions (which i noticed none of your stealth scans showed) so she knows hes there.

In fact, Dr. Light will be using a very specific type of holographic tactic – the soligram. These are essentially hard-light holograms that have physical form. Light first used this strategy during his time with the Injustice League; where he developed them with Mirror Master & Luthor. They created a holographic ‘Revenge Squad’ to fight the JLA…

ok...

In short, a few of these soligrams are more than enough to keep Brainiac 8 occupied. For all her power, Indigo can’t entirely hurt them…while they can hurt her (to an extent). And while Brainiac 8 is busy fighting these hard-light images, Dr. Light will be using this opportunity to hit the android where it hurts.

if only she could teleport. Dr.Lights main attacks seem to be intense light which wont harm Brainiac 8 and he wont be able to physically put her down either. blinding light... she teleports, seering light shes resisted high temperatures. It seems like your idea is to physically hurt someone who took beatings from heavy hitters Jade, Starfire, ect... and she was just fine. it took plot to kill her.

You Went Scan Heavy and im not scrolling through them all to quote individual sentences

i notice you are keeping him in light form has he ever actually attacked from this form? sure ive seen him grab money but that isnt going to do jack to brainiac 8. in all your scans all of his attacks have been in solid form.

your whole strategy has been hide and wait... if Brainiac 8 knows his location doesnt that kind of screw things up (and ive still seen nothing that shows hes cloaked from her) you are using one of the few things shes specifically stated she can sense being manipulated. wouldn't that kind of give it away.

Im just saying your argument is all hinging on a chain of events happening in a certain order and going off perfectly. it never works that way...

Youre assuming that 2 rather intelligent Villains are gonna look at each and just start punching each other like we are the Hulk and Thing.

Im just saying it all seems circumstantial and not likely to happen.

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#50 Posted by NighThunder (7725 posts) - - Show Bio

this is a fun read, ill be watching