Thought Robot vs The Ultimator

@thecoolestguy:

"It wasn't actual heat lol. It wasn't actual heat of 10 billion suns lol. It wasn't actually an energy attack it was something else entirely/"

@manmadeofhunter another gold mine

@alonis3612: Ad i remember tf darkseid was and of u ve readed the tiering system u must understand that 10th dimension was only high 1-C and not outerversal

@simeon2020c:

Ad i remember tf darkseid was

Show me outerversal feats for Darkseid then cmon I wanna see them.

and of u ve readed the tiering system u must understand that 10th dimension was only high 1-C and not outerversal

I explained this to you twice already and you still made the same mistake lmao. Before using the term "outerversal", first learn what it means and what spatial and temporal dimensions are.

@alonis3612: Dude you should see his Quora page.

"There was no evidence that Mandrakk actually died while falling into the abyss

"Cosmic Armor Superman is everything that is, and is not".

-MJ 2020

@manmadeofhunter: The power of DC authors and editors doesn't apply to CAS even though they created him in the first place lol

@alonis3612: But Nil is a land of pure thought, and if you take that literally you would have to take the blood of 52 universes as well.

@thecoolestguy: Being a land of pure thought doesn't mean much.

Blood of 52 universes is literal. That's Bleed. But Mandrakk only absorbed a small fraction of the Bleed. Regardless of the fraction, it is still the blood of 52 universes which is Bleed. His attack was based on the power of the Bleed which was equal to the heat of 10 billion suns. I don't see any contradictios here.

@alonis3612: It means the attack was obviously not physical. Lol.


Ok, but it was in a metaphorical sense, not a literal sense.

@thecoolestguy: No it doesn't. I might just as well say that something made of pure thought cannot bleed, cannot touch physical stuff, cannot affect anything physical.

That's your assumption that is not supported by anything.

@alonis3612: What?? what are you even saying???

@thecoolestguy: I'm saying that if thoughts can affect physical stuff, I don't see why physical stuff can't affect thought.

@alonis3612: How the heck can a physical thing affect a thought

@gokuisthebest: The same heck way beings made of thought can affect a physical thing. This is fiction. Real world logic doesn't apply everywhere.

"I am made of thought I am invincible!"

@alonis3612 Wait.. You actually think the 10 billion suns statement is being literal? Holy shit.. LOL. It's being metaphorical. It's in reference to Superman 1 million(something Grant Morrison also wrote) where 10 billion suns stand in the waking of Superman.

"Ten billion thinking suns stand silent for a span. Entire constellations pause in their tracks to acknowledge the return of truth's greatest champion."

Hence why he also calls the same attack "The blood of 52 universes" and addresses all the rest of his attacks with metaphorical titles as well.

"Theirs poison in my eyes."

He then hits CAS with "The sound of the space between now and her(Lois Lanes) final heartbeat."

@gokuisthebest: It can't. He's just not using his critical thinking skills. Mandrakk is speaking about important narratives from his opponents lineage like he always does.

Ultimator isn't even real btw. He's from a story Mr Mxyzptlk made up and told to Superman. And even if we were to take him literally, his best feat in that story is killing a bunch of a lower 5D imps. Which literally pales in comparison to Mandrakk who was going to destroy all of existence during Final Crisis and one shot Monitors who are way higher up on the ladder than imps.

@xearesay: If you were to make a top 10 most powerful character right now what would it be

@gokuisthebest: In DC or like all of fiction? Both answers are honestly impossible since 1. DC is confusing as shit right now and 2. I don't know every character in fiction.

@xearesay: In dc and fiction and which verse in your opinion is the strongest

@xearesay: Just because Mandrakk often speaks in metaphors doesn't mean that his 10 billion suns statement wasn't literal. Mandrakk mostly does talk literally too, after all.

Wait.. You actually think the 10 billion suns statement is being literal? Holy shit.. LOL. It's being metaphorical. It's in reference to Superman 1 million(something Grant Morrison also wrote) where 10 billion suns stand in the waking of Superman.

"Ten billion thinking suns stand silent for a span. Entire constellations pause in their tracks to acknowledge the return of truth's greatest champion."

Just because "10 billion suns" are mentioned in two works spaced out with 10 year difference, they must be referring to the same thing? Lol in the SP instance, 10 billion thinking suns are clearly a metaphor that refer to the actual suns. In Mandrakk's case, he talks about THE HEAT of 10 billion suns and there is no clear indication of it being a metaphor. I don't see any metaphor nor any reference to the same thing.

It would only be a reference if Morrison actually confrims that he was alluding to SP One Million instance, otherwise you are making assumptions that seem too vague to be true.

Hence why he also calls the same attack "The blood of 52 universes" and addresses all the rest of his attacks with metaphorical titles as well.

The blood of 52 universes is a kind-of metaphor but the reference is clear - the Bleed. Life.

"Theirs poison in my eyes."

Poison in eyes is clearly a metaphor. That is as clear as day.

He then hits CAS with "The sound of the space between now and her(Lois Lanes) final heartbeat."

He didn't hit CAS with "the sound bla bla" he wasn't even talking about his attack there.

"The heat of 10 billion suns"

> Where the heck is the indication that it is a metaphor? THE HEAT OF 10 BILLION SUNS. Heat of suns makes sense. 10 billion is not a small number either. Everything in the sentence makes sense. So where the heck is the indication that it is a metaphor? Nowhere, you assumed it from some other statements made by Mandrakk which are CLEARLY metaphors.

> Hyperbole? Weren't people just trying to say that it is a metaphor? Must go over A, B, C until you use up every literary device because you can't stick up to a single point lol? Hyperbole is a massive exaggeration. If you think that 10 billion is a hyperbole then you are downplaying Mandrakk even more than you think everyone else does.

> Metaphor... hyperbole... not heat? Lol. Everything but the acceptance of facts.

TR

@alonis3612: Not universally but specifically when Mandrakk talks about his opponent, he most often speaks in metaphors that relate to his opponents history. I think we can both agree that Mandrakk likes talking about history of heroes and the important moments within their narratives.

He didn't hit CAS with "the sound bla bla" he wasn't even talking about his attack there.

I know he wasn't talking about 10 billion suns attack. I'm talking about a different attack which came after that was also titled metaphorically.

The year difference between the works means absolutely nothing since Grant likes to include things from previous stuff into his newer works. And Superman 1 million is a decently iconic Superman story. So the year difference wouldn't play a role in the likeness that it's being referenced or not.

Also lets just establish something. They're fighting in an archetypal world that formed around the Cosmic Armor when it was floating in the Overvoid. It's already beyond the The Orrery which contains Wonder World which is the limit of space and time and all that material stuff. Everything else outside of these worlds is spiritual planes that operate on metaphysics. So literal suns and heat could not even possibly exist within Nil. However this is only 1 problem with taking the statement literally.

The next problem is that this statement doesn't even make logical sense when taken literally. Superman is not harmed by feeling the heat of suns. Solar energy empowers Superman. So for Superman to be harmed by heat doesn't even make sense unless you want to assume that Grant Morrison just randomly forgot that Superman is empowered by solar energy when writing Final Crisis. Which is very unlikely btw since it's literally brought up how Superman is a solar battery towards the end of Final Crisis #7.

The third problem is that this 10 billion suns statement is also contradicted with Mandrakk calling the same attack the blood of 52 universes. Even if you wanted to state that Mandrakk was talking about the bleed it would still pose a contradiction to 10 billion suns because obviously the blood of 52 universes is not literally the same as 10 billion suns.

So this means taking the statement literally leaves us with 3 logical errors.

1. Nil is not a world that contains actual suns and heat.

2. Superman cannot be harmed by solar energy.

3. The blood of 52 universes and 10 billion aren't the same thing.

Now lets list what comes with taking it metaphorically.

1. Aligns with the pattern of other metaphorical statements that were said during the same time.

2. Correlates to a very similar metaphorical statement utilized during Superman 1 million which is also a comic Grant Morrison wrote.

3. Doesn't contradict Nil being a world that is outside of space and time.

4. Doesn't contradict the same attack also being called the blood of 52 universes.

So overall, taking the statement metaphorically is not only much more suggestive but it's also much more sound since it doesn't present any logical errors and aligns with the pattern of metaphors being thrown by Mandrakk And obviously, what aligns and fits better is more likely to be correct over something that doesn't logically flow, doesn't fit the pattern, and creates a bunch of unnecessary inconsistencies within the story.

The same way you shouldn't try to fit a square over a triangle into a triangle slot is the same way you shouldn't take this statement literally over metaphorically.

@alonis3612: Darkseid basically exists beyond space and time, and ad Wonder woman says: New gods like darkseid are self-aware ideas, they use concept weapon such as the anti-life equation, and ad batman says: New gods are incredibly powerful living ideas from a platonic archetypal world, and ad i remember platonic idea should be 1-A, and u want to telo me that u ve readed the tiering system after u try to day that mxy and ultimator are outerversal? U make mistakes, for thought robot, wasn t the overvoid a place beyond space and time(where only that kind of People Who aren t bounded by space,time or dimensions can go?(outerversal characters)) and for the heat, who tells u that mandrakk wasn t using his powers too in that heat?

@alonis3612: Oh and i seriously doubt that it was heat, a cosmic entity who has 2 kryptonian which everyday get solar energy, can t be hurted by solar energy

@simeon2020c:

Darkseid basically exists beyond space and time, and ad Wonder woman says: New gods like darkseid are self-aware ideas, they use concept weapon such as the anti-life equation, and ad batman says: New gods are incredibly powerful living ideas from a platonic archetypal world, and ad i remember platonic idea should be 1-A, and u want to telo me that u ve readed the tiering system after u try to day that mxy and ultimator are outerversal?

First off, lmao at upgrading Darkseid to outerverse level just based on him being an "idea", whereas in every other portrayed there is nothing suggesting that New Gods are like that, only contradictions. In the same run New Gods were merely stated to be powerful enough to split the planet in half. Also the New Gods weren't stated to be literal platonic being, but rather "kind of", meaning they are not quite platonic. The fact that they are not platonic is further supported by the fact that the nature of New Gods contradicts the very definition of platonic beings, they can be created, killed, changed, which are all NOT the characterists of a platonic stuff. Darkseid and the other New Gods do not even exist as a pure idea, they exist as energy vibrations and can be affected by physics. True platonic beings don't and can't.

Also, just being stated to be "platonic" doesn't give you any outerversal powers. You must prove that a character has them because otherwise that's just mindless wank from VSBattles.

U make mistakes, for thought robot, wasn t the overvoid a place beyond space and time(where only that kind of People Who aren t bounded by space,time or dimensions can go?(outerversal characters)) and for the heat, who tells u that mandrakk wasn t using his powers too in that heat?

First off, in order for Overvoid to be outerversal, it has to be conceptually transcend space and time. Just lacking space and time doesn't cut it.

Secondly, false, countless 3-D characters have gone into places beyond space and time. Silver Surfer and random fodders are among them, but go ahead you know better what makes one outerversal.

Who aren t bounded by space,time or dimensions can go?(outerversal characters)) and for the heat, who tells u that mandrakk wasn t using his powers too in that heat?

Mandrakk clearly says, "the heat of 10 billion suns", no more, no less. That attack was part of his power already. You are making vague assumptions.

Oh and i seriously doubt that it was heat, a cosmic entity who has 2 kryptonian which everyday get solar energy, can t be hurted by solar energy

You doubt it was heat, lol? The panel literally says, "HEAT". CAS is not Superman and there is no evidence that he gets stronger from solar radiation, we don't even know what kind of suns Mandrakk was talking about, might as well be red suns. Furthermore, heat =/= solar radiation. Heat is thermal energy/radiation, not solar radiation.

Thermal energy is the kinetic energy of random movements of atoms and molecules in matter. Heat is the flow of thermal energy.

@alonis3612: tell me when mxy and ultimator has shown outerversal feats the, and in the same pannel, mandrakk says: The blood of 52 universes merged with the beat of ten bilion suns so it wasn t normal heat

and ad i remember the dc multiverse has infinite dimensions(so the embodyiment of it(Just lime multi eternity)) must be high 1-B) and mandrakk Was a threat to it

And the same for TF darkseid and TR

@simeon2020c:

tell me when mxy and ultimator has shown outerversal feats

I never seriously claimed that Mxy and Ultimator are outerversal, I merely mocked your logic because for some biased reason of yours the Monitors must be outerversal because they are made of thought, but Mxy is not even though he is made of imagination.

The blood of 52 universes merged with the beat of ten bilion suns so it wasn t normal heat

Blood of 52 universes is not merged with anything. I don't get how you can imagine something like that.

Bleed is the blood of 52 universes. They way I see it, Mandrakk used the power he got from the Bleed to attack CAS with the heat of 10 billion suns.

and ad i remember the dc multiverse has infinite dimensions(so the embodyiment of it(Just lime multi eternity)) must be high 1-B) and mandrakk Was a threat to it

No. Morrison's version of the multiverse was only based on the M-Theory, which is 11-D. Mandrakk was only a threat because he was draining Bleed and was a threat to Nil which is made of thought. Both things have little to do with relevant power levels.

@alonis3612: Yeah but so, ultimator still would be below TR and Mandrakk

@simeon2020c: Ultimator fodderized Mxy and other Imps and has absorbed the 9th, 8th, 7th and 6th dimensions within himself. On top of that, Ultimator is literally the embodiment of the 10th dimension.

TR and Mandrakk are featless fodders who have nothing but hype and wank

and again 10 billion suns

@alonis3612: u says literally: The multiverse was 11d and mandrakk was going to eat the multiverse so i m stilo right

Featless fodder TR gets one shotted.

@simeon2020c: Mandrakk wasn't going to eat the multiverse he was going to eat Bleed. "Was going to eat" has nothing to do with the actual power because the process of eating means absorbing power, not exercising it. That kind of power was never in Mandrakk in the first place.

ok so ultimator win

@xearesay:

Not universally but specifically when Mandrakk talks about his opponent, he most often speaks in metaphors that relate to his opponents history. I think we can both agree that Mandrakk likes talking about history of heroes and the important moments within their narratives.

Lmao the only times when Mandrakk said anything about the history/important moments of heroes were these:

In the first one Dax Novu talks about what is happening right now and not history about Superman. In the second one Rox Ogama (!) mentions Superman's father failing to save Krypton but it's probably a well-known fact and this was after Ogama read the book with infinite pages which literally contains the history of DC.

So how are 2 random mentions are supposed to prove that Mandrakk "does that often" and somehow knows about Superman Prime comic book narration, it's not like this wasn't for Superman Prime which Superman hasn't become yet and this was a narration, there is no evidence that Superman himself knew or thought about 10 billion suns "pausing" anything. Also the fact that you are trying to connect comic books with 10 year difference with entirely different context meanings of 10 billion suns.

I know he wasn't talking about 10 billion suns attack. I'm talking about a different attack which came after that was also titled metaphorically.

"Can you hear it? The sound of the heartbeat?" lol nothing here suggests that Mandrakk is talking about the attack here. He just attacks Superman and tries to psychologically beat Superman into despair.

The year difference between the works means absolutely nothing since Grant likes to include things from previous stuff into his newer works. And Superman 1 million is a decently iconic Superman story. So the year difference wouldn't play a role in the likeness that it's being referenced or not.

The years play difference. Morrison and every comic book reader is more likely to remember what happened recently, than what happened whole 10 years ago.. Also you just made vague assumption that Mandrakk's words are somehow connected to an entirely unrelated narration from 10 years before.

Also lets just establish something. They're fighting in an archetypal world that formed around the Cosmic Armor when it was floating in the Overvoid. It's already beyond the The Orrery which contains Wonder World which is the limit of space and time and all that material stuff. Everything else outside of these worlds is spiritual planes that operate on metaphysics. So literal suns and heat could not even possibly exist within Nil. However this is only 1 problem with taking the statement literally.

The Orrery of Worlds and all the universes literally exists within the Monitor Sphere lol. Physical stuff can exist there if you have a problem with that.

Also if according to you that physical stuff cannot exist within metaphysical space, then how can metaphysical stuff exist, be visible and tangible within the physical world? If the latter is possible then I don't see why the former is illogical.

The next problem is that this statement doesn't even make logical sense when taken literally. Superman is not harmed by feeling the heat of suns. Solar energy empowers Superman. So for Superman to be harmed by heat doesn't even make sense unless you want to assume that Grant Morrison just randomly forgot that Superman is empowered by solar energy when writing Final Crisis. Which is very unlikely btw since it's literally brought up how Superman is a solar battery towards the end of Final Crisis #7.

Here you are making several assumptions:

1: You assumed that CAS is Superman and has all of his properties, so he must be getting stronger from the sunlight. We know that CAS is not Superman, it is merely the essense of Superman controlling armor made of thought which has some abilities that Superman does not and also it's a literal construct of thought metal.

2: You assumed that heat = sunlight, which is wrong. Heat is the flow of kinetic energy, and sunlight is electromagnetic radiation.

3: You assumed that Mandrakk was talking about the yellow suns and not any other kind of the suns like the run suns.

4: You assumed that Morrison isn't human and he cannot make some kind of mistakes in his writing.

So I was able tocome up with at least 4 assumptions that you made, just off top of my head. There could be more.

The third problem is that this 10 billion suns statement is also contradicted with Mandrakk calling the same attack the blood of 52 universes. Even if you wanted to state that Mandrakk was talking about the bleed it would still pose a contradiction to 10 billion suns because obviously the blood of 52 universes is not literally the same as 10 billion suns.

You are getting confused with semantics because you choose to use "the blood of 52 universe" in a literal sense, which you just previously yourself called a metaphor. The blood of 52 universe implies the Bleed. Bleed is not the 52 universes, it's where universes formed and exist. So I don't understand why people say "10 billion suns make no sense because of 52 universes", when not only Bleed is not the same as the 52 universes, but also that Mandrakk has never had the full Bleed. He only has ever absorbed a small fraction of it.

So this means taking the statement literally leaves us with 3 logical errors.

^

1. Nil is not a world that contains actual suns and heat.

Mandrakk was drawing power from the Bleed, not Nil.

2. Superman cannot be harmed by solar energy.

Superman, maybe. But CAS is not Superman and heat is not solar energy.

3. The blood of 52 universes and 10 billion aren't the same thing.

Which again shows how you confuse yourself and I explained this in the paragraph above.

Now lets list what comes with taking it metaphorically.

1. Aligns with the pattern of other metaphorical statements that were said during the same time.

2. Correlates to a very similar metaphorical statement utilized during Superman 1 million which is also a comic Grant Morrison wrote.

3. Doesn't contradict Nil being a world that is outside of space and time.

4. Doesn't contradict the same attack also being called the blood of 52 universes.

Which as I already explained all of these statements are based on vague assumptions that come out of wank to make CAS and Mandrakk look mroe powerful than they actually are.

So overall, taking the statement metaphorically is not only much more suggestive but it's also much more sound since it doesn't present any logical errors and aligns with the pattern of metaphors being thrown by Mandrakk And obviously, what aligns and fits better is more likely to be correct over something that doesn't logically flow, doesn't fit the pattern, and creates a bunch of unnecessary inconsistencies within the story.

The same way you shouldn't try to fit a square over a triangle into a triangle slot is the same way you shouldn't take this statement literally over metaphorically.

You just made a bunch of assumptions and you are trying to make everything more confusing.

You just said that Mandrakk was talking about his attack. But you also say that 10 billion suns is not even an attack but a metaphor that is a reference to some ancient Morrison comic book. Which again makes no sense because why would Mandrakk connect the blood of 52 universes with 10 billion suns then? Also the statement of "heat" somehow evaporated in your eyes? What does it have to do with the other metaphor and why did Mandrakk say that?

So from what I understood, you are implying that Mandrakk is a complete psycho who speaks mostly complete random nonsense that is supposed to makes sense according to wank.

@alonis3612

Lmao the only times when Mandrakk said anything about the history/important moments of heroes were these:

That's not true at all. The Unexpected has many more references. However it's not about how many references, it's about the fact that he does it.

Also ZIllo Valla was literally talking about Supermans story but that's beside the point. It's something they'd know because they're the Monitors of the Multiverse. They study it and know everything about it. It's not just because "Supermans popular" that's a dumb assumption that ignores the Monitors being literal science gods.

Also that's not even what the quote saids.

Morrison puts many references in his stories to previous so that's just a lie. It's literally something he's renowned for doing. And what you assume every comic book reader is more likely to know while reading Final Crisis is 100% irrelevant to proving anything. Hidden references are hidden for a reason and are not supposed to be easily detectable.

The Orrery of Worlds and all the universes literally exists within the Monitor Sphere lol. Physical stuff can exist there if you have a problem with that.

Also if according to you that physical stuff cannot exist within metaphysical space, then how can metaphysical stuff exist, be visible and tangible within the physical world? If the latter is possible then I don't see why the former is illogical.

That shattered jar was all of creation. It's directly said in the story.

Yes metaphysical things can exist within DC and be visible, however I don't know where you're pulling it's tangible to the physical world thing from. The physical world literally has a limit in the cosmology and it's at Wonder World.

We even have a statement from Grant Morrison where talks about how its the structure of the entire Multiverse seen from the outside. And that it is basically "everything that ever was, in a jar."

I never said Mandrakk was drawing power from Nil. Mandrakk also doesn't draw his power from just the bleed. That's never said in the comic. Mandrakks feeds on existence and creation itself. Plus it's shown that Mandrakk can literally grow stronger and regain strength from feeding on anyone. So you're completely wrong on this.

You assumed that CAS is Superman and has all of his properties, so he must be getting stronger from the sunlight. We know that CAS is not Superman, it is merely the essense of Superman controlling armor made of thought which has some abilities that Superman does not and also it's a literal construct of thought metal.

If it's a suit of pure thought being powered by the Essence of Superman, you do understand that this can literally can translate CAS from a whole perspective as the idea of Superman of right? And obviously Superman being powered by solar energy is one of those ideas. So CAS should logically function off the same ideas as Superman since that's what he's literally powered by. Which would include being empowered by suns.

You assumed that heat = sunlight, which is wrong. Heat is the flow of kinetic energy, and sunlight is electromagnetic radiation.

Superman, maybe. But CAS is not Superman and heat is not solar energy.

Because it's solar energy itself that empowers him. And heat emitted from the sun is solar energy. A quick google search literally tells you this.

You are getting confused with semantics because you choose to use "the blood of 52 universe" in a literal sense, which you just previously yourself called a metaphor. The blood of 52 universe implies the Bleed. Bleed is not the 52 universes, it's where universes formed and exist. So I don't understand why people say "10 billion suns make no sense because of 52 universes", when not only Bleed is not the same as the 52 universes, but also that Mandrakk has never had the full Bleed. He only has ever absorbed a small fraction of it.

I'm not confusing myself at all. I chose it in a literal sense because you're taking the description of the attack literally. The blood of 52 universes is apart of said description. Unless you're suggesting that part of the description is metaphorical and part of it is literal. And like I said before, even if you want to imply that the blood of 52 universes is talking about the bleed, The bleed = the heat of 10 billion suns.

Which as I already explained all of these statements are based on vague assumptions that come out of wank to make CAS and Mandrakk look mroe powerful than they actually are.

It's not vague assumptions. It's called using critical thinking skills. Most of your argument is already based off misconceptions in the first place, like Nil containing the jar of all creation somehow equating to Nil containing physical things.

1. The Monitor Sphere cannot have the heat of 10 billion suns.

2. The blood of 52 universes = The heat of 10 billion suns.

3. Superman cannot be harmed by solar energy.

Taking the statement does simply not make logical sense and goes against a massive information about Nil, the cosmology, Superman, and the descriptions of the statement itself.

You just made a bunch of assumptions and you are trying to make everything more confusing.

You just said that Mandrakk was talking about his attack. But you also say that 10 billion suns is not even an attack but a metaphor that is a reference to some ancient Morrison comic book. Which again makes no sense because why would Mandrakk connect the blood of 52 universes with 10 billion suns then? Also the statement of "heat" somehow evaporated in your eyes? What does it have to do with the other metaphor and why did Mandrakk say that?

I never said it isn't an attack. I'm saying Superman isn't being hit with the heat of 10 billion literal suns. I already offered my explanation for why 10 billion suns was the chosen statement. You don't accept it because you think it's vague and not specifically referenced in the material. Which is a stupid reason because nothing during this scene specifically references other material but whatever.. In the end this leaves you with only 2 options to find an answer.

1. Ask Grant Morrison.

2. Use your critical thinking skills to find the most valid(something that doesn't make logical sense isn't valid btw) answer.

However you're clearly never going to do either of these so I'm wasting my time.

So let's recap.

1. You used a different comic written by a different author to try and justify a baseless theory about Mandrakk always speaking metaphorically in Final Crisis

2. You opted for author statements and character statements to try and say the Orrery is all of creation even though we know factually it does not contain the Sphere or Limbo

3. Your counter argument about where Mandrakk draws his power from literally completely missed his point.

4. Baseless assumptions that a robot suit that looks like Superman *must* be immune to energy from suns even though a) your contention is that TR exists in a realm where suns and solar energy can't exist so for him to have an immunity is literally impossible and b) there are types of suns Superman not only isn't immune to but is explicitly weak against.

5) Not knowing that the actual photons are what empower Kryptonian cells, not heat lmao

6) Thinking that the Orrery isn't a physical object lmao. Likewise Nil functions explicitly based on physical concepts, and is never said to be non physical.

Yes, you are wasting your time making these absurd fallacious arguments.

@xearesay:

Yes metaphysical things can exist within DC and be visible, however I don't know where you're pulling it's tangible to the physical world thing from.

Thought beings tangible to physics examples:

If it's a suit of pure thought being powered by the Essence of Superman, you do understand that this can literally can translate CAS from a whole perspective as the idea of Superman of right? And obviously Superman being powered by solar energy is one of those ideas. So CAS should logically function off the same ideas as Superman since that's what he's literally powered by. Which would include being empowered by suns.

Nice try to confuse people, but you failed. Superman gets his powers from yellow sunlight, which carries specific amounts of radiation of each type. But only infrared radiation counts as heat. The rest is not. Lol maybe you want to tell me that Superman is invulnerable to all types of radiation of all amounts?

It was literally stated that CAS was activated from the release of the opposite energies formed when Superman was merged with Ultraman, not sunlight. Superman's essense controls CAS, not his body or solar energy. CAS never received any sunlight because as you said, there are no suns in Nil. You are making countless assumptions about CAS again.

@deagonx: Your thoughts on this meme?

@alonis3612: It's accurate.

@alonis3612:The first examples are misleading. Superman had already activated the Miracle Machine against him. And the miracle turns thoughts into reality. So Mandrakk was going to lose regardless. I don't even understand what you're trying to prove with the rest of the images. DC has a literal end to physical properties within their own cosmology. You still haven't addressed this. No matter what observations you want to make and dry to draw conclusions, it'd be going directly against the established cosmology structure. Making it irrelevant.

It's not about just getting his power. It's about the fact that he stores solar energy. You can't logically harm him with solar energy if he stores solar energy.

I never said CAS was powered or formed by sunlight. I said he was activated and powered by the essence of superman.

CAS never received any sunlight because as you said, there are no suns in Nil. You are making countless assumptions about CAS again.

Why are you bringing up what I said when my arguments are specifically addressing what you're saying? When I'm addressing what you're saying, that doesn't change my original stance. I'm merely taking up your own belief and showcasing how it doesn't make logical sense.

When I say stuff like this.

1. The Monitor Sphere cannot have the heat of 10 billion suns.

2. The blood of 52 universes = The heat of 10 billion suns.

3. Superman cannot be harmed by solar energy.

I'm addressing the problems with your argument. My stance is still obviously something else since I don't hold the same belief as you on this.

@xearesay:

The first examples are misleading. Superman had already activated the Miracle Machine against him. And the miracle turns thoughts into reality. So Mandrakk was going to lose regardless. I don't even understand what you're trying to prove with the rest of the images.

You could only say that THE FIRST one is, but that would require a baseless assumption that the Miracle Machine somehow changed Rox Ogama's nature from thought to matter. But even then, Ogama drained Spectre and Radiant so he was clearly tangible even before the Miracle Machine ever did anything.

The rest of the images show that your "beings made of thought" can touch other physical beings and be touched by them too.

DC has a literal end to physical properties within their own cosmology. You still haven't addressed this. No matter what observations you want to make and dry to draw conclusions, it'd be going directly against the established cosmology structure. Making it irrelevant.

Nice use of Cherry Picking fallacy.

Anyways there is a debunk for that logic, too. According to your "end to physical properties" logic, Superman and Shazam cannot exist within Limbo, because it exists beyond the Speed Force. But they can. Ur ez debunked bruh.

It's not about just getting his power. It's about the fact that he stores solar energy. You can't logically harm him with solar energy if he stores solar energy.

Except if his cells are overloaded or it's red sun energy or the author makes a mistakes that's whole 3 logical reasons lmfao

I never said CAS was powered or formed by sunlight. I said he was activated and powered by the essence of superman.

"So CAS should logically function off the same ideas as Superman since that's what he's literally powered by. Which would include being empowered by suns."

Why are you bringing up what I said when my arguments are specifically addressing what you're saying? When I'm addressing what you're saying, that doesn't change my original stance. I'm merely taking up your own belief and showcasing how it doesn't make logical sense.

Lol what those are your own words that I have never said. Nice use of Staw Man.

When I say stuff like this.

I'm addressing the problems with your argument. My stance is still obviously something else since I don't hold the same belief as you on this.

1. The Monitor Sphere cannot have the heat of 10 billion suns.

2. The blood of 52 universes = The heat of 10 billion suns.

3. Superman cannot be harmed by solar energy.

Nice job bringing up Straw Man and False Cause Fallacy examples.

Which are completely baseless claims that I never supported and which you made up from countless assumptions that I already addressed several times and debunked.

@alonis3612

You could only say that THE FIRST one is, but that would require a baseless assumption that the Miracle Machine somehow changed Rox Ogama's nature from thought to matter. But even then, Ogama drained Spectre and Radiant so he was clearly tangible even before the Miracle Machine ever did anything.

No the Miracle Machine guaranteed a happy ending for Superman. Meaning Rox had to lose regardless. The Spectre and The Radiant themselves are metaphysical beings.

The rest of the images show that your "beings made of thought" can touch other physical beings and be touched by them too.

Ok.. Is there a rule that beings beyond the material worlds in DC can't interact with the lower beings? Your argument is flawed. You're equating the ability to interact with other beings lower on the scale as a way to deny where they're transcendent or not, despite the fact that there is absolutely no correlation between these two.

Nice use of Cherry Picking fallacy.

Anyways there is a debunk for that logic, too. According to your "end to physical properties" logic, Superman and Shazam cannot exist within Limbo, because it exists beyond the Speed Force. But they can. Ur ez debunked bruh.

How is it cherry picking? XD? You're trying to rewrite an established function of the cosmology off of your own choice to take a single statement by Mandrakk literally even though it doesn't make sense to take it literally. But suuuure, I'm the one who's cherry picking..

Superman and Shazam were brought to limbo by a Monitor so that doesn't even count.

Except if his cells are overloaded or it's red sun energy or the author makes a mistakes that's whole 3 logical reasons lmfao

Neither of these are mentioned. Nor can you prove Grant was making a mistake.

Lol what those are your own words that I have never said. Nice use of Staw Man.

Nice job bringing up Straw Man and False Cause Fallacy examples.

Which are completely baseless claims that I never supported and which you made up from countless assumptions that I already addressed several times and debunked.

How did I strawman you? You literally utilized something I said from a completely different argument.

My statement "there are no suns in Nil" is apart of my argument for why the statement cannot be taken literally.

Verses the chain responses you brought this up within being about "if we take the statement literally" how could CAS, who is the idea of Superman, be harmed by suns despite the fact that Superman is empowered by suns and not harmed by them.

These are two separate arguments. You can't mix and match responses from them together because they're arguing two separate things.

No the Miracle Machine guaranteed a happy ending for Superman. Meaning Rox had to lose regardless.

Once again blatantly missing the point. There's no evidence the Miracle Machine fundamentally altered Rox Ogama's nature.

The Spectre and The Radiant themselves are metaphysical beings.

This is wrong, but eitheer way you've literally debunked your own argument. Spectre and Radiant have regularly fought with physical beings, so the idea that a metaphysical being can't fight or interact with a physical one.

Superman and Shazam were brought to limbo by a Monitor so that doesn't even count.

This is non-sequitur.

Neither of these are mentioned. Nor can you prove Grant was making a mistake.

They don't need to be stated, and he doesn't need to prove Grant did anything. We can simply go off of what's literally in the comic, which is that Mandrakk attacked the Thought Robot with the power of 10 billion suns.

1. Certain types of suns can hurt Superman, so the idea Superman "can't be hurt" by them is blatantly false

2. A robot that looks like Superman doesn't necessarily have his immunities.

3. If your position is that suns can't exist in Nil, then your argument that he would be immune to them is logically flawed.

You can't logically harm him with solar energy if he stores solar energy.

Unless it's a red sun. Also CAS doesn't store solar energy based on your very own argument, since he can't coexist with solar energy in Nil.

1. The Monitor Sphere cannot have the heat of 10 billion suns.

And this is also still unsubstantiated. CAS literally says space, scale, and time are different and "more meaningful" in Nil, not that they don't exist.

@xearesay: Deagonx literally said almost everything I was going to tell you, you can skrull up and see it.

Ok.. Is there a rule that beings beyond the material worlds in DC can't interact with the lower beings? Your argument is flawed. You're equating the ability to interact with other beings lower on the scale as a way to deny where they're transcendent or not, despite the fact that there is absolutely no correlation between these two.

Lmao that is just to prove that your notion of "CAS is made of thought so he cannot be harmed by physics" is an assumption based entirely on stereotypes and there are tons of evidence within the comic books that It doesn't matter whether they are made of thought or not, they can still be tangible to physical beings or be harmed by them.

Superman and Shazam were brought to limbo by a Monitor so that doesn't even count.

That is irrelevant to your own point because you clearly said that matter and energy cannot exist beyond the Speed Force.

But I might just as well say that the heat of 10 billion suns was brought into the Monitor Sphere by Dax Novu lol.

Lol but thank you. I was trying to think of anything else physical that can exist in the Monitor Sphere except for literally EVERYTHING. Literally the whole universes, full of matter, space, time, suns, people exist in the Monitor Sphere.

So I noticed that Bleed also can exist. Not only inside the Orrery but also literally be drawn from it and into the outside of the cage as Mandrakk did it. Which is literally what allowed Mandrakk to use the heat of 10 billion suns.

How is it cherry picking? XD? You're trying to rewrite an established function of the cosmology off of your own choice to take a single statement by Mandrakk literally even though it doesn't make sense to take it literally. But suuuure, I'm the one who's cherry picking..

It is cherry picking because you think that the stereotype of "I am thought I cannot be affected by physics" trumps the fact that it is literally contradicted by the actual evidence from the same comic books.

Also your assumption that matter and energy cannot exist beyond the Speed Force which I already debunked.

Lmao I am trying to rewrite? I am merely using facts from comic books and not countless assumptions as you do. You were literally debunked by the comic book itself.

single statement by Mandrakk literally even though it doesn't make sense to take it literally

You failed to prove that "it doesn't make sense to take it literally" and also that is not a "single statement" that Mandrakk said literally:

How did I strawman you? You literally utilized something I said from a completely different argument.

You literally put your own words in my mouth and distorted everything. That's strawman.

My statement "there are no suns in Nil" is apart of my argument for why the statement cannot be taken literally.

Verses the chain responses you brought this up within being about "if we take the statement literally" how could CAS, who is the idea of Superman, be harmed by suns despite the fact that Superman is empowered by suns and not harmed by them.

These are two separate arguments. You can't mix and match responses from them together because they're arguing two separate things.

You literally said that CAS should be like Superman and be empowered by the sun. How the heck then did it activate when there are no suns in Nil? The last time I checked, Superman has powers only if his cells are charged with yellow sunlight. CAS did not receive any sunlight. He must have stayed dead.

@deagonx: @xearesay:

"Heat is sun energy.

Superman cannot be harmed by sun energy.

CAS has all of the abilities of Superman.

The blood of 52 universes is a metaphor but I'm still gona use it literally to make "the heat 10 billion suns" seem to make less sense.

Thought cannot be harmed by physics because "real world logic" but I'm gonna apply this to comic books anyway despite the Monitors and CAS never shown to be intangible to physics but there is in fact evidence that they are tangible."