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Round 1 : Dream of the Endless
Round 2 : Destiny of the Endless
Round 3 : Death of the Endless
Clears because official source > Comicvine bullshit.
Endless are just one aspect of a larger universal force in DC.
This is misleading and purposely misinterpreted.
First of all, this entire source is referencing 1990, 3 decades ago and has nothing to do with cosmology, past nor current. It is quite literally referencing the fact that writers who utilized DoTE in DC comics, assumed that she was just another aspect of the concept of Death, (like The Black Racer, or Nekron etc...) and Gaiman corrected them by affirming that DoTE ins't an embodiment or aspect of death, but she IS Death personified.
Matter of fact, in every bio of the Endless, it is explicitly stated that the Endless are not mere representations of the concepts, but THEY ARE the concepts. There is no "higher forces" than the actual forces themselves. Death of The Endless herself is present in not only all DC/Vertigo canons, but also other franchises like Marvel. There is no higher version of herself, as she is it. In Books of Magic, we see that eventually claims all of DC actuality.
But for the sake of not arguing, please link me to:
A) The actual statement by any DC writers of current Morrison cosmology who specifically says that there is a higher Universal force of which the Endless are only aspects of, within DC.
B) The actual Universal force being referenced.
Clears because official source > Comicvine bullshit.
Endless are just one aspect of a larger universal force in DC.
@zgtfreak: Lol good try.
Look at Dream powerless to stop the actions of the realm of a COIE Monitor lol. Also even if the guy on the top was Destiny, he is never mentioned in The Multiversity, Convergence, Justice League or Dark Knights Metal and DC already confirmed the Endless (or at the very least Death) are just parts of concepts highter than themselves.
I asked the illustrator if that was true and he said no, it wasn't. These authors and editors don't think like us debaters and aren't out to prove who the strongest is. They just make fun content and it was entirely metaphorical that Destiny was shown at the top, because he is the icon of recording data. It worries me that even with this, the amount of trolling still exists and is not being immediately shut down by others.
Mr. Hughes said this on Twitter
He had 3 references to the Monitors > The Presence on the Cosmic Map. One is Elohim, found in Skyland with all the other Pantheon Peaks. Elohim appears as a Voice in the Silver City, but his home base is in Skyland. Further, we have the Monitor ships scrubbing fatally contaminated Continua from existing. That is not a physics or universe reference, Continua is a reference to the Biblical God and his Creation.
We saw who was fatally contaminated and scrubbed out of the continua
Elohim and the Word of the Voice = Yahwe The Presence
This Endless bs> Monitor nonsense should be flagged for massive spite in favor of CAS. The CAS was so absurd that Monitor Mind could not defend against it and still got infected by it, and its infinite intelligence could not explain the Cosmic Armor. All the Endless get one shot by the CAS where the downplayers wish to deny it, or not.
@sagathelegend: Except Destiny has books/fictions with the Endless in it beneath the real ones. The most used map cites the Endless as being above the Monitors.
I asked the illustrator if that was true and he said no, it wasn't. These authors and editors don't think like us debaters and aren't out to prove who the strongest is. They just make fun content and it was entirely metaphorical that Destiny was shown at the top, because he is the icon of recording data. It worries me that even with this, the amount of trolling still exists and is not being immediately shut down by others.
Mr. Hughes said this on Twitter
He had 3 references to the Monitors > The Presence on the Cosmic Map. One is Elohim, found in Skyland with all the other Pantheon Peaks. Elohim appears as a Voice in the Silver City, but his home base is in Skyland. Further, we have the Monitor ships scrubbing fatally contaminated Continua from existing. That is not a physics or universe reference, Continua is a reference to the Biblical God and his Creation.
We saw who was fatally contaminated and scrubbed out of the continua
Elohim and the Word of the Voice = Yahwe The Presence
This Endless bs> Monitor nonsense should be flagged for massive spite in favor of CAS. The CAS was so absurd that Monitor Mind could not defend against it and still got infected by it, and its infinite intelligence could not explain the Cosmic Armor. All the Endless get one shot by the CAS where the downplayers wish to deny it, or not.
@sagathelegend: Except Destiny has books/fictions with the Endless in it beneath the real ones. The most used map cites the Endless as being above the Monitors.
Can you teach me the ways of a monitor, oh wise great one?
He had 3 references to the Monitors > The Presence on the Cosmic Map. One is Elohim, found in Skyland with all the other Pantheon Peaks. Elohim appears as a Voice in the Silver City, but his home base is in Skyland. Further, we have the Monitor ships scrubbing fatally contaminated Continua from existing. That is not a physics or universe reference, Continua is a reference to the Biblical God and his Creation.
Even though you've been thoroughly disabused of this notion, you persist in lying to comic book fans about easily debunked misconceptions. The Presence isn't listed anywhere on the map. The only Presence-related term on the map is the Word of the Voice which isn't actually the Presence himself, just one of his agents from back in the day. Even the Voice is just an aspect of the Presence.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Word_(New_Earth)
And as explained to you multiple times, "the Elohim" is not a term for The Presence. The Elohim is the plural form of the word Eloah, and has only been used as a term for God in the Tanakh for the Jewish God. Real life does not dictate comics, and no DC comic has called the Presence "Elohim."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim
At other times it refers to deities in the plural.[1][2][3][4][5][6]
the fatally contaminated continua, which means Creator.
Continua does not mean creator. Continua is a plural form of the word continuum. As in space-time continuum.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/continua
In other words, the Presence is never listed on the Multiverse Map, which makes sense since we know from DC canon that he's God of the Omniverse.
We saw who was fatally contaminated and scrubbed out of the continua
Mandrakk never said he was responsible for wounding the dying god, and it does not refer to the Presence. Darkseid was dying throughout the comic, and you wouldn't use "the" for the Presence anyways, which means "the dying god" can't refer to him. Which is the same reason "the Elohim" doesn't mean God.
Here is the actual wounded dying god, a couple of pages before Mandrakk references Darkseid, we're told he's wounded and dying.
"And on the way he wounded you, beyond repair, didn't he? A rotten carcass of a god, crawling into the sewer to die."
Read comics before arguing about them, MJ. You'll find them quite enlightening.
I like how people say that CAS can't be beaten despite the fact that he was literally rendered broken and incapable of of functioning in his first and only fight.
I like how people say that CAS can't be beaten despite the fact that he was literally rendered broken and incapable of of functioning in his first and only fight.
Lol. Stop bringing logic into debates.
Yep. The official Guidebook says so.
Because the Silver City = the Presence
And Mandrakk is the one who drilled right through him. And it was even touched on that something drilled through the Presence in Vertigo. Mandrakk is the one who drilled the Bleed holes through the Silver City that remained indefinitely all the way to right now in Death Metal. Every version of the Map shown in the comic still retained the Bleed holes all the way from pre-Final Crisis when Mandrakk made them, all the way to right now in Dec. 2020 with Death Metal.
Because Cain is back, leader of the vampires, which isn't supposed to happen if Yahwe is around
Because Rox Ogama, depowered, defeated the Presence and yoinked his Creation Orb
Because the Silver City is the Primum Mobile of Vertigo , the last possible place there is.
Both of these places, are literally above all the Endless in Vertigo, as the angels descend DOWNward to Destiny's Garden and The Dreaming below.
And because this location is 4-5 tiers below where CAS exists, even beyond Elohim and the Word of the Voice which is what Trigon and Phantom Stranger referred to Yahwe as.
Because the Omnisceient book that is not sentient, that is 100% unbiased and has no reason to lie or exaggerate said the ultimate truth is that Mandrakk is the real God
Because Mandrakk was the Overvoid's corrupted side and CAS still was able to 1v1 it.
Because Grant Morrison said that Gaiman was upset that his concepts like Fate pre-dated the Endless and that the original concept, Fate, is even too scared to speak the name of Mandrakk aloud
Because the guide entry in the re-release of Final Crisis says Monitors > All the DC Gods
Because Monitors can sketch and remove the meta DC guidebook 13 years before it is written. Can the Presence do that? Or the Endless? Can Dream of the Endless reach into the "real world" and remove the as yet unwritten official DC guidebook 13 years before the author wrote it? The weakest Monitor did.
This is Nix in 2008's Final Crisis Sketching the guide entries for a comic release that didn't actually show up until late 2019 in reality. We never saw those images for another 13 actual years.
CAS > Endless. Because Grant's meta concepts are what upset Gaiman and the eldest, strongest of his concepts is mortified of Mandrakk.
Thusly, objectively debunked. But I am sure reinterpretation will come around as a counter, because those users cannot deal with facts that debunked them. So, they will try to rewrite it, explain it in a subjective way and somehow think that subjective rewrite is factual.
@michaeljulius: okay can you explain to me why cas wins?
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