@ashrym: The Artist and the guy who planned out the fight via Twitter.
Either of them being out for a minute or two has nothing to do with the fight. Your answer doesn't make any sense. EDIT: to me at least, lol
Thing was out for a week.
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Hulk was gone before the FF recovered Ben and wasn't visible by the time Alicia walked over to unconscious Ben so the Hulk dropping would have only been moments.
Unless superman has been reduced to a pile of rubble in the recent DC comics, Ben doesn't get passed the first round.
I wish people would actually read the comic they're citing. Even if Ben makes it past Superman, which, unless I missed something SIGNIFICANT in recent comics, he isn't, Grimm still isn't getting past Savage Hulk. If you guys wanna go by cherry-picked, "strongest" showings and not average ones, then Savage frequently punches through time barriers and black holes, which is leagues beyond anything Ben has done.
I didn't realize how starved Thing fans were for a damn "win," Jesus.
@ashrym: I just got confirmation that he was out for only a minute or two.
Can we get a screenshot? Otherwise, it's fan conjecture.
In the comic Alicia is talking to Ben, he gets up, Hulk runs to him, Ben hits Hulk busting up his own arm in the process, Hulk falls down, Ben transforms and falls down, Alicia walks over to Ben and starts talking to him while he's unconscious, we cannot see Hulk's feet anymore, and we're next at Ben having been picked and out of it for a week while Mister Fantastic says Hulk was gone before they got there.
The best case scenario for the Hulk is leaving just before Mister Fantastic raced over to Ben in a medical emergency. That's minutes at the most, but seconds if we go by Hulk disappearing in the time it would have taken Alicia to walk a few paces.
Unless you want to try and state Mister Fantastic took his time saving his friend. ;-)
@ashrym: I just got confirmation that he was out for only a minute or two.
Can we get a screenshot? Otherwise, it's fan conjecture.
In the comic Alicia is talking to Ben, he gets up, Hulk runs to him, Ben hits Hulk busting up his own arm in the process, Hulk falls down, Ben transforms and falls down, Alicia walks over to Ben and starts talking to him while he's unconscious, we cannot see Hulk's feet anymore, and we're next at Ben having been picked and out of it for a week while Mister Fantastic says Hulk was gone before they got there.
The best case scenario for the Hulk is leaving just before Mister Fantastic raced over to Ben in a medical emergency. That's minutes at the most, but seconds if we go by Hulk disappearing in the time it would have taken Alicia to walk a few paces.
Unless you want to try and state Mister Fantastic took his time saving his friend. ;-)
I know Hulk left momentarily, that much is telegraphed in the issue, saying you got confirmation from the artist that it was a minute or two is a lot more specific, which means I still want that twitter comment from the artist.
@ashrym: I just got confirmation that he was out for only a minute or two.
Can we get a screenshot? Otherwise, it's fan conjecture.
In the comic Alicia is talking to Ben, he gets up, Hulk runs to him, Ben hits Hulk busting up his own arm in the process, Hulk falls down, Ben transforms and falls down, Alicia walks over to Ben and starts talking to him while he's unconscious, we cannot see Hulk's feet anymore, and we're next at Ben having been picked and out of it for a week while Mister Fantastic says Hulk was gone before they got there.
The best case scenario for the Hulk is leaving just before Mister Fantastic raced over to Ben in a medical emergency. That's minutes at the most, but seconds if we go by Hulk disappearing in the time it would have taken Alicia to walk a few paces.
Unless you want to try and state Mister Fantastic took his time saving his friend. ;-)
I know Hulk left momentarily, that much is telegraphed in the issue, saying you got confirmation from the artist that it was a minute or two is a lot more specific, which means I still want that twitter comment from the artist.
The artist also said stuff like even Mjolnir would only slightly chip Thing's exterior... It's just an example of writers having different views on different characters. Slott thinks highly of Ben and gave him a cool win. Al Ewing thinks highly of Hulk and had him crack Thor's skull. It's the nature of comics, I think it's important to find a balance which is why I can't take this thread very seriously.
@ashrym: I just got confirmation that he was out for only a minute or two.
Can we get a screenshot? Otherwise, it's fan conjecture.
In the comic Alicia is talking to Ben, he gets up, Hulk runs to him, Ben hits Hulk busting up his own arm in the process, Hulk falls down, Ben transforms and falls down, Alicia walks over to Ben and starts talking to him while he's unconscious, we cannot see Hulk's feet anymore, and we're next at Ben having been picked and out of it for a week while Mister Fantastic says Hulk was gone before they got there.
The best case scenario for the Hulk is leaving just before Mister Fantastic raced over to Ben in a medical emergency. That's minutes at the most, but seconds if we go by Hulk disappearing in the time it would have taken Alicia to walk a few paces.
Unless you want to try and state Mister Fantastic took his time saving his friend. ;-)
I know Hulk left momentarily, that much is telegraphed in the issue, saying you got confirmation from the artist that it was a minute or two is a lot more specific, which means I still want that twitter comment from the artist.
The artist also said stuff like even Mjolnir would only slightly chip Thing's exterior... It's just an example of writers having different views on different characters. Slott thinks highly of Ben and gave him a cool win. Al Ewing thinks highly of Hulk and had him crack Thor's skull. It's the nature of comics, I think it's important to find a balance which is why I can't take this thread very seriously.
Thank you! Yeah, writers change their tune frequently, but honestly, even in the "loss," it wasn't hard to see who was better in every way.
Also anyone who is thinking that the hulk was going all out is the wrong interpretation. He explicitly stated he was just getting started.
You know what Storm fans are notorious for? Cherrypicking and lying out of their asses. Case in point, this bright individual claims that artist stated that Hulk was out for a minute (no idea why he thought that matters, a KO is a KO), but that Hulk also wasn't going all out. Except in the very same tweet where he mentions 1 minute KO thing he explicitly said that Hulk was going all-out...
No wonder you didn't want to post the picture, it explicitly destroyed your other argument, lol.
And since we're talking about what artist said on his twitter... Remember when he aslo said that Ben KOed Hulk and didn't "break the mind control which KOed Hulk (lolwhat)"?
Remember when he basically said that this Hulk was hitting much harder than Mjolnir?
Remember when he straight-up said that this was the same Hulk who gave Thor a concussion?
Don't forget that by bringing up artist's tweets into this, you automatically agree to anything else he said regarding this issue. Unless, of course, you're a cherrypicking hypocrite.
Let's also not forget that Hulk was not only explicitly ordered by Puppet Master to finish Ben off and failed to do precisely that in span of next 8 minutes, but also was additionally empowered by Puppet Master's rage on top of his full power... with all of that bring stated on the same freaking page.
But yeah, of course Hulk wasn't at full power and wasn't holding back. That is, if we ignore literally everything that happened in that comic.
Hulk was gone before the FF recovered Ben and wasn't visible by the time Alicia walked over to unconscious Ben so the Hulk dropping would have only been moments.
Of course Ashrym, a guy who thinks that Hawkman is Thought Robot level character, is here too and spouting nonsense as well. "HuLk WaS gOnE wHeN aLiCiA wAlKeD oVeR". That's called change of perspective, smartass. He wasn't visible because he wasn't in the shot.
You, on the other hand, seem to be implying that this crowd of people was just standing there silently without reacting... while Hulk got up and left. Something that would have definitely sparked at least some reaction from them. But nothing like that happened. I wonder why...
I can't help but love how you dismiss artist's words as "fan conjecture" and then proceed to fabricate the dumbest headcanon seen in this thread. Then again, I'm already used to your posts being complete jokes, so I'm not exactly surprised.
Please shout this out on all the threads lowballing Hulk and saying he was more powerful than ever and going all out on Thing.
He was literally playing with Thing the whole fight and still humiliating him.
Ah yes, another notorious Hulk apologist. Remember how you claimed that Secret Empire Hulk was holding back against Thing, only for Ewing to then state that he wasn't on-panel? Good times.
But regarding that "muh Hulk was holding back" nonsense... why don't you actually read the issue and re-read the artist's claims that you so happily accepted when they confirmed that Hulk was KOed for 1-2 minutes, but gleefully ignored literally the next sentence where it was said that Hulk was going all-out? Do us all a favour and stop embarrassing yourself.
Honestly, even Thor fans weren't whining and reaching so much when IH one-shot Thor. Sure, they were claiming that it was PIS and that "this was unworthy Thor he is like mid-tier or something", but their arguments didn't degenerate into Storm fan tier nonsense. You guys must be really proud of yourself, your mental gymnastics are something else. Hopefully Hulk gets his ass kicked by Wonder Man or Ares in the future so we can go through all this salt once again.
Unless superman has been reduced to a pile of rubble in the recent DC comics, Ben doesn't get passed the first round.
I wish people would actually read the comic they're citing. Even if Ben makes it past Superman, which, unless I missed something SIGNIFICANT in recent comics, he isn't, Grimm still isn't getting past Savage Hulk. If you guys wanna go by cherry-picked, "strongest" showings and not average ones, then Savage frequently punches through time barriers and black holes, which is leagues beyond anything Ben has done.
I didn't realize how starved Thing fans were for a damn "win," Jesus.
DCEU? My bad, I thought the cinematic abbreviation was DCCU. In that case yeah, Thing wins.
Still stops at Savage though. I'd even argue Thor, actually, now that he has his hammer back, though I'm not sure how far he's fallen these days.
You either admitted that Immortal Hulk is massively inferior to Superman, Thor and Savage Hulk in durability or you didn't read the OP and thought this thread is about Thing fighting all these people in regular fights instead of, you know, unleashing his strongest punch on static braced opponents.
I didn't realize how salty Hulk fans were over their character losing, mister "HULK RAN INTO HIS FIST AND THAT WAS WHAT KNOCKED HIM OUT". Because the only way a force of a half-ton body moving at subsonic speed (wall lvl energy at best) would contribute to Hulk's KO is if Hulk had like small building lvl durability. Even is he was only city lvl in durability that bit of energy would be like a drop of water in ocean compared to the energy needed to KO Hulk. And something tells me you rate IH as someone way above city lvl in durability. Hell, even aforementioned artist says that it played only a tiny role, smaller than one would think it did:
Surely that small contribution from Hulk is outweighted by the fact that he was additionally empowered by Puppet Master's rage and the fact that Ben was already battered and nowhere near his best when he threw that final punch, hm?
OT: stops at Thanos. People in prior rounds either get KOed or die outright.
@toratorn: If by "whining" you mean accurately portraying that Thing was massively outclassed the entire fight instead of thinking one blow outweighed everything else, sure?
It beats trying to convince people Thing is anywhere near Hulk's level. ;-)
@ashrym: common sense dictates that one needs to be at least somewhere near his opponent's level to tank his hits for 1.5 hours and to ultimately KO him with last effort move. If he was "massively" outclassed, he would be dead in a couple of hits and incapable of doing any damage with his best attacks. Sure, he was the underdog in the fight... but by claiming he was nowhere near you're pretty much ignoring everything that happened in the issue. But yeah, good to know you have nothing to say to my actual post.
@ashrym: That doesn't address any of his point tho, you literally just dodged his full response
That's because I would just be repeating myself at this point. It was clear that Thing was outclassed by comments and actions in that fight. People can continue claiming how powerful it was but in the end it's one strike that isn't consistent with typical showings or even the rest of the fight in which it occurred. WIS, CIS, and PIS are terms that were created for things like that because it happens.
If I think a post seems aggressive such as claiming poster's are whining I'm not going to invest the time in a post that I don't trust will be read with an open mind. It's just an internet discussion about comic book characters and I reasserted my opinion, then planned on moving on.
Toratorn was bringing up Hawkman here as well. I posted my opinion on that fight an that thread. That looks to me it's more of a rant and getting emotional. I prefer to walk away if I think a discussion is getting hostile and let drop (with no hard feelings hopefully).
@chad_duby: why does it matter? Tons of Marvel characters who have busted regen have been knocked out by physical force. Deadpool, Wolverine, Eternals. Why is Hulk an exception once again?
@toratorn: I was saying that the feat was more impressive by the fact that Hulk has good Regen. His head was blown off and he still kept fighting, indicating that Thing punched really hard.
You either admitted that Immortal Hulk is massively inferior to Superman, Thor and Savage Hulk in durability or you didn't read the OP and thought this thread is about Thing fighting all these people in regular fights instead of, you know, unleashing his strongest punch on static braced opponents.
Superman outclasses the Thing for a lot more reasons than just strength. In either case, The Thing can't replicate this feat 10/10 times because, as I said, if you wanna cherry-pick, Hulk's average feats (even savage Hulk's) brutally outclass anything The Thing has done. The only Hulk Ben consistently outclasses is Joe Fixit.
I didn't realize how salty Hulk fans were over their character losing, mister "HULK RAN INTO HIS FIST AND THAT WAS WHAT KNOCKED HIM OUT". Because the only way a force of a half-ton body moving at subsonic speed (wall lvl energy at best) would contribute to Hulk's KO is if Hulk had like small building lvl durability. Even is he was only city lvl in durability that bit of energy would be like a drop of water in ocean compared to the energy needed to KO Hulk. And something tells me you rate IH as someone way above city lvl in durability. Hell, even aforementioned artist says that it played only a tiny role, smaller than one would think it did:
Obviously, you've never been in a real fight then. You ever walk into something walking slowly? It hurts. Now imagine charging headfirst into one of Ben Grimm's strongest punches ever. I'm not taking the Thing's win away from him, as I said, Ben certainly earned this one but to believe that he's anywhere near Hulk level, even based on what you see in this issue is ridiculous. Hulk may not have been straight-up mind-controlled, but he was clearly toying with Thing (as affirmed by Puppet Master in issue #12). I'm sure his punches hurt, but he clearly wasn't trying to kill the Thing. If he was, it's completely against Hulk's character and it confirms my suspicions that this was just plot induced stupidity - considering Hulk only punishes people who deserve it. If you've read anything from Immortal Hulk, which I assume you haven't - IH wouldn't have attacked someone on their honeymoon, endangered a bunch of innocent people just for kicks, especially not when one of his friends (Rick Jones) is rotting in a motel tub somewhere. If you wanna cite Hulk's fight with the Avengers, he was possessed by Brian Banner which was clearly amping up his sadistic appetites. He kills the people who deserve it. If Hulk wanted The Thing dead, he would have been dead.
Surely that small contribution from Hulk is outweighted by the fact that he was additionally empowered by Puppet Master's rage and the fact that Ben was already battered and nowhere near his best when he threw that final punch, hm?
That's something Thing fans made up because it makes the win look better - that's not how Hulk's rage works and it's even been demonstrated in his own series a few times now that when Immortal reaches a certain anger level he becomes more savage, sadistic and kind of mindless. "Added" rage, please. If anything, the issue communicates the opposite since Hulk literally tracks MP down and punishes him pretty brutally for the mind control - he breaks his fingers and then we go off-panel, indicating some seriously messed up torture, but I'm sure you'll ignore that because "Hulk apologists." I could also argue that the KO itself was PIS since Hulk's been decapitated before and remained conscious, but as I said, it was an earned win for The Thing, so whatever, PIS happens all the time from writer to writer - it was his honeymoon after all (notice how I'm not even mentioning how Hulk was still conscious when PUNCHED off the planet by an elder of the universe). Still, even if we ignore ALL OF THAT, the issue could not have more clearly telegraphed who's superior in every way. As for your "Ben wasn't in the best shape" argument, at that point, you can see that he abandoned any sense of "self-preservation" because he tore his arm in half trying to Knock out the Hulk, which didn't even graze his skin, just knocked the lights out of him. You don't know how that punch would look if he was in shape because when you think you're near death, you usually perform better due to an increased adrenaline rush, not to mention that Alicia was like, literally a few feet away. Many characters perform better when in Ben's condition - even weaker, the street-level character's like spider-man.
And regarding the "Hulk apologists," you can look through my comments and you'll find that I haven't really paid that much credit to all the artist has said, just simply wanted to see what the fuss was about. This is because, for one thing, the artist (who works for Marvel) will stay neutral and won't discredit either character and for another, there's clearly some information that he is wrong about - like "Immortal Hulk" being the strongest version of the character, which he isn't. Most sadistic? Sure, but the strongest title belongs to Green Scar/World Breaker Hulk, who's currently dormant in Banner's mind. He also says "I think" quite a lot, which he either is willingly not giving the full answer because he isn't allowed to, either because Dan Slott's instructions were vague (unlikely), or again, he doesn't want to discredit anything. I would ask Dan Slott if people want solid answers because some of what the Artists says contradicts what happens in the issue (Hulk's allegiance, for one thing), which he seems fully aware of since he basically says that "other people have different head-canons." By the same Logic, the Immortal Hulk can beat Thanos because Ewing thinks that "Thanos isn't all that." Guess Thing can knock out Thanos with "his best Sunday evhaa," despite years of comic book feats telling us otherwise.
Make note of the people Scott brings as an example too. Spider-man and Colossus? Are you kidding me? When were these two ever even close to The Thing? Maybe Colossus can stay in the mix for a while, but Ben would have ALWAYS slaughtered both of them. We already know this. This is common knowledge among comic book fans. Not really sure about Thor though - He seems to have fallen pretty low thanks to Aaron's writing so it's not impossible the Thing could beat him in a fight or KO him with a "Sunday," though I'm not willing to ignore years of history quite yet since Thor has consistently been a league above Ben - even with The Thing's last-ditch effort/ momentary win. Though if you wanna go by Jason Aaron's writing (the same guy who's writing Thor right now), he had a Hulk Vs Wolverine/The Thing mashup not too long ago. Hulk was being injected with some poison weakening him, and he beat both Ben and Logan at the same time. Is this a definitive showing, then? Clearly, Aaron thinks that Ben is weaker than a weakened Hulk - so where does that put Thor on the chart according to Aaron? Where does it put the Thing? This is exactly why we judge a character based on average feats across the board and not based on what one writer/artists says, which yes, it goes both ways. I can't cite certain quotes as claims either. Clearly, across the board, the consensus is that Hulk is stronger than the Thing, especially Immortal Hulk since he's had far better showing's in various different appearances. I'd argue that he's even more durable since his face managed to basically break Thing's arm. Or how about the fact that that Hulk easily walked off The Thing's most powerful punch "moments" after it happened?
Want my genuine personal take? This issue demonstrated Ben's heart, pain tolerance, and durability as a fighter, but other than that The Hulk was clearly a league beyond him and the ultimate KO was more of a fluke than anything else. Even if we, for argument's sake, take everything Scott said as gospel, that still makes it clear who's top dog, it just makes Ben look better by comparison along the way, but not by much since Hulk walked off Thing's best Sunday punch "moments after," which means that if Hulk was serious about hurting the Thing, he could have killed him while he was passed out in the sand. Still, if you think The Thing can contend with the likes of the Juggernaut, superman, silver surfer, and the Immortal Hulk based on this one showing, then sure, be my guest. I think we both know you're deluding yourself with some ABC logic nonsense. If Ben keeps this up sure, he might move up a ladder or two but ya'll need to actually read the issue before throwing baseless claims around - take the context into consideration. You also need to place these feats within Ben's average one's. Durability wise, sure, if he survived a Blast from Galactus then I think he'd be able to take a beating from these people but if this is all his best punch can do then as I said, he's not getting through savage Hulk, because if we genuinely cherry-pick, Hulk punches through time barriers and other nonsense like that consistently, while Ben has thrown a punch like this ONCE, and that's not even mentioning a dozen of other durability feats both Savage and The Devil Hulk have stacked up against The Thing.
Ah yes, another notorious Hulk apologist. Remember how you claimed that Secret Empire Hulk was holding back against Thing, only for Ewing to then state that he wasn't on-panel? Good times.
I see the Thing cry baby is here. When did Ewing state that? The Hulk in secret Empire was getting weaker by the minute after he was revived, which is even stated on panel my dude. ANd he still 2 shot Ben... Stop.
But regarding that "muh Hulk was holding back" nonsense... why don't you actually read the issue and re-read the artist's claims that you so happily accepted when they confirmed that Hulk was KOed for 1-2 minutes, but gleefully ignored literally the next sentence where it was said that Hulk was going all-out? Do us all a favour and stop embarrassing yourself.
Because 1 statement is based on numbers while the other is an assumed statement where he even said - "I think". Also, in the same comic, we can read that Hulk was trying to inflict maximum injuries on Thing so that he can suffer and not immediately kill him.
Maybe you should read the comic and stop embarrassing yourself?
Honestly, even Thor fans weren't whining and reaching so much when IH one-shot Thor. Sure, they were claiming that it was PIS and that "this was unworthy Thor he is like mid-tier or something", but their arguments didn't degenerate into Storm fan tier nonsense. You guys must be really proud of yourself, your mental gymnastics are something else. Hopefully Hulk gets his ass kicked by Wonder Man or Ares in the future so we can go through all this salt once again.
lmao, most are still complaining that it was PIS now... What world are you living in you dolt... Not to mention, when Hulk fought Thor, we was under the influence of Brain Banner and going for maximum damage but here, his first objective was TO MAKE THING SUFFER. I know you are too stupid to understand this BUT WHEN YOU MAKE SOMEONE SUFFER, YOU DON'T DO FOR THE IMMEDIATE KILL.
Assuming that Thing is now a Herald-Tier because he got one showing despite decades of consistency displaying that Ben is not on this level seems like wank to me.
why you saying this anyway, you unironically scale off comic dudes multiple times, it's your whole gimmick
I honestly don't know what you mean by this, care to elaborate?
Assuming that Thing is now a Herald-Tier because he got one showing despite decades of consistency displaying that Ben is not on this level seems like wank to me.
Do you need to be Herald tier to knock out Hulk?
Hmm. Interesting claim there.
why you saying this anyway, you unironically scale off comic dudes multiple times, it's your whole gimmick
I honestly don't know what you mean by this, care to elaborate?
When you were scaling Ultimate Captain America off of Ult Wonder Man and said this-
Was "tanking"?
Come on bro. You know dat ain't anything near to that. She's bloody from the first hit and sent flying.
You also tried to Ult Cap was stronger than Wonder Man based on this amazing example.
THIS is tanking, for future information.
There's a lot more that I could talk about but I'd be going off topic.
Fact is, your scaling and definition is nasty sometimes
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