Thing and Rhino run the gauntlet

Rules

• Ben and Rhino are standard versions.
• After they pass a round they are fully healed.
• Duo is bloodlusted.
• Where do they stop and why?
• Win via Death/KO.
• Begin 30 meters apart.

The gauntlet

1. Ultimate Hulk.
2. Apocalypse.
3. Blue Marvel.
4. She Hulk.
5. Iron man.
6. Abomination.
7. Red Hulk.
8. Absorbing man.
9. Maestro.
10. Thor.

Bump

Omnipotent characters are banned

How are they omnipotent?

I'd say Creel might be able to stop them, if he keeps on his streak of not being a bit of a jobber.

Should stop at red hulk in my opinion.

Apocalypse mind controls them.

......with that non-existent TP he never uses for that?

Blue Marvel is out of place. His ability to fly and use antimatter blasts (including to make bubbles around his opponent) is a big advantage. He takes Rhino out pretty quickly, then it's a matter of attrition after that.

Sentry said Marvel was "pushing me to my limits" and Marvel can punch Thing into orbit just like he did to Sentry, but Thing can't come back like Sentry did. I know people love to undersell Marvel but by statements he has better strength feats than Thing (capacity to crack the moon in half, move an asteroid the size of Arkansas although that does involve flight propulsion), survived a point blank nuke, one-shotted Ultimate Hulk, can fly at speeds capable of reaching the edge of the solar system in a short time, beat King Hyperion who hit harder than Sentry. With Monica Rambeau's help he was able to make a bubble that contained the ghost of the sentient cosmic cube Shaper of Worlds. Recently he was able to expend enough energy to stop a black hole from expanding. Thing shouldn't be able to lay a hand on him while he's flying and blasting from range, even with Thing throwing stuff at him. Eventually Brashear'll wear Thing down or knock him out by taking him to space where he can't breathe.

Iron Man is a similar situation but he's not as powerful as Blue Marvel and his current form is kind of weak actually. Right now he may not win.

Absorbing Man ought to be able to win in theory.

Maestro is probably the first to win by pure strength.

Blue Marvel's entire power source is something that weakens Sentry significantly, so no wonder he was getting pushed. Not sure if beating some jobbers is better than Thing? Lol.

@professorrespect: Except that they were just fist-fighting and the antimatter never came into it. People can feel free to believe that somehow it was just in the air from the rift or whatever, but given that Sentry didn't say anything about it I don't think it was an issue.

Ultimate Hulk, King Hyperion, and Shaper are not jobbers and none of that negates Marvel's capacity to fly and rain down blasts from above, or fly/punch him into space.

Why is it non-existent? It is stated in his power list.

@professorrespect: Oh give me a break, man. That's like a textbook lowballing play on Brashera, with the cherry being Silver Sable "manhandling" him aka taking him by surprise and throwing him, the kind of thing that happens to all kinds of heavy hitters when taken by surprise. Doom hit him with magic, which is a whole other kind of attack than a normal blast.

And yes, the antimatter was not a big deal. If it had been a big deal, Sentry would have made a bigger point of it. It's not like he was staggering around "oh no I am so weak because of antimatter, woe is me." He was saying that Blue Marvel, himself, was pushing him to his limits. Not "oh gosh you are pushing me to my limits because my limits are lowered due to all this antimatter."

Blue Marvel is a genius. He is smart enough to know that the best way to beat Thing is to fight from afar. And yes, if he decides to go in, he is still stronger by statements.

It's one thing if people want to include someone's weaknesses along with their strengths. That's what we should do. But with Blue Marvel, it's standard to just go straight for the weaknesses and ignore the strengths.

@owie: Can you tell me what issues Blue Marvel has recently been in? I want to catch up with his appearances.

So is Thor's ability to manipulate space and time, but we never see it.

Just read Ultimates 2 and the Doctor Doom solo series. He does appear in Incoming! but doesn't do much of worth

@professorrespect: Is it because writers forgot about it?

It's because Apocalypse is one of those characters that gets a lot of hype but doesn't really bank on it outside of a few small fights here and there.

Stop at Apocalypse.

@professorrespect: This makes sense. How will the team deal with his matter manipulation? They will be hard-pressed in trying to land a direct hit on him.

Apoc isn't really a guy who uses matter manip, even in his better fights with Loki and Evolutionary. I really don't see how he can't just get knocked out.

@professorrespect: Apocalypse has all of these powers and barely uses them. You are right. He is overhyped and underdelivers. He should be able to get knocked out.

@cosmoman: IMO not a stomp as Ben Grimm is impressive, but Blue Marvel takes them out for me.

Probably at RULK

It's a classic thing for skilled characters to pull some kind of martial arts move on a stronger character, whether it's Shang-chi against Spider-man, Black Panther against Namor, or Gamora on Thing or Rage. Sable taking Marvel unaware and throwing him for a second means nothing.

Let's talk about Doom a bit. First of all, if you have specific examples of Doom using magic on Thing, the kind of magic we saw here where it's an actual spell and not just a random blast, then I am happy to see it and take it into consideration.

But here we see an example of Thing being significantly affected by magic, to the point where his rocks all drop off and he's super-weak. Magic is a different kind of animal from normal attacks. We know the spell Doom used on Marvel has been used before by others and it's not just a straight-up blast.

Let's start by being clear that Doom takes on high-level characters all the time. He's fought Mephisto multiple times using magic, so obviously his magic blasts are nothing to sneeze at; I doubt either Thing or Marvel could tank the blast at the end of this, or this move he used on the Hood who was IIRC possessed by Dormammu, or here he incinerates the already-weakened Marquis of Death. Here he beats Cosmic Robot Hulk and Skaar right after each other, in part using his normal blasts. Not one-shotting, but damn effective. And while we can argue about exactly where in the Hulk tiering Cosmic Hulk and Skaar fit, clearly they are significantly durable.

Here he one-shots Uatu. Here he one-shots Grey Hulk using a neuro-scrambler--obviously a very different kind of weapon, but the point being that he specifically chooses the right beam for the specific character he's fighting. For Blue Marvel, he chose the right kind of spell.

Here Doom takes on Thor (one, two) and clearly gives him pause with his blasts (Thor is more durable than Marvel, for sure) and here he knocks back Surfer. Here he takes out a surprised Molecule Man. Here his blasts wear down the significantly powerful Wiccan (and take away his powers). Point of all this? Doom's blasts are pretty solid. Getting taken out by one is not an embarrassment. (Meanwhile, neither are Brashear's--he disintegrated Kang in the Doom series, only to have him somehow come back later, saying that he had been killed. But you know Kang can take hits from Thor, that's a solid blasting feat.)

Here of course, Doom grabs Thing's hand mid-punch and swings it around and tosses him. If Doom can do this, then Marvel, who can lift giant ships and asteroids the size of Arkansas, can. Not to undersell Doom's strength, he obviously stopped Cosmic Hulk's punches above too. Then Doom beats Thing by teleporting him away--by magic.

Here Doom's shields block Thing's punches, and he blasts him away from him, then holds him in magic. Doom has been holding off Thing forever, since way way back in the day when an electric charge would paralyze Ben. Obviously things have changed now, but as Ben has scaled up, so has Doom. So Doom is quite capable of taking Thing down if he chooses the right attack, as he did with Marvel.

Meanwhile we know Ben can get hurt all kinds of ways. Gamora nerve-struck him. Wolverine has cut him. Immortal Hulk broke his rocks off right and left, and Ben broke his own arm with his punch against him. We can argue about whether Brashear's strength or beams are enough to do that, but I think they are by the feats already described. I think it would take a while, but it would happen.

I'm sure you've seen most if not all of these feats, but others may not have.

I still believe that if antimatter had been some big tipping point for Sentry, they would have made a bigger deal about it. If he was so weak, why tell the rest of the Avengers to stand aside? Even if he was weaker than normal, he still clearly considered himself--and by their actions, the rest of the Avengers did too--to be more formidable than Ms. Marvel, Ares, and Wonder Man combined. Clearly the whole point of this scene, from the point of view of the plot, was to show Marvel was reasonably close to Sentry in power level.

Someone can be smart and do dumb things, but Marvel doesn't do that a lot. He tends to keep his wits about him. He also knows the FF on a personal basis. He's not just going to be like, gee, why don't I stick around and play fisticuffs with Thing, who I know is more skilled than me. What should I do? I guess I'll do the totally obvious thing and attack from range. It's not a huge stretch. How many times has he done it? It hasn't come up.

Regardless, the battle forums have always had a tension between acting in character and "fighting at their best." Those are often the opposite. I tend to lean towards the "fighting at their best" side of things. It's fine if someone else leans the other way and then we come up with different results.

My point about strengths was that I tend to find that after someone points out Blue Marvel's strengths, multiple other people often immediately jump in and start nitpicking away til it looks like there were no strengths at all. I especially find that the statements from his solo series tend to get ignored completely. And sure, Marvel has had something of the Gorgon effect, where he was super-badass at the beginning and a little less so later. But that doesn't mean that previous stuff is meaningless, and again, his best feats by statements are better than Thing's when it comes to strength, and I don't see anything later that really cancels that out. Is there context to his feats? Yes. Are they all perfect? No. But he's still in that general Hyperion/Gladiator tier (definitely below Sentry) that easily makes him a challenge for Thing, and especially given his flight and ranged attacks.

@owie: I kinda agree that blue marvel is stronger than he gets credit for in battle forums, and Apocalypse too.

@apex_pretador: @owie: Just skimmed your post Owie, I want to note a few things:

Ben has defeated the Cosmic Hulk back in the 80s. He fought the robot while he was exhausted during a fight with Grey Hulk and from non stop back to back adventures and proceeding to run around the park for ages in a second battle with Fixit (who was afraid to take Ben on) and only lost via drowning.

The writer of the Blue Marvel series noted that Sentry wasn’t at 100%, he noted on Twitter that the anti matter around was screwing with his powers.

Dr Doom has had many defeats to the Thing, I know he has won over Ben as well but it’s not just a one way street.

I am personally more of a fan of feats/consistency than going by intent/hype. King Hyperion apparently killed an alternate universe version of Galactus yet went on to job to people like Blue Marvel, Namorita, Mimic etc I think you are better focusing on feats than statements (that isn’t really backed up by anything) else we get crap like him being Sentry level even though he lost to a weakened Sentry.

I don’t think Blue Marvel has better feats than Ben honestly and it’s not like Ben doesn’t have statements/feats to put him as one of the strongest people in the world (like being stated to be one of the strongest people in the world and the toughest guy around by Hulk) Ben has had multiple clashes with several Hulk incarnations, Bi-Beast, Super Adaptoid, Wonder man, Blastaar etc

Common sense =/= comics honestly. Blue Marvel has brawled with a lot of people like Namor, the mighty Avengers etc and doesn’t BFR people right off the bat. It’s not necessarily calling him dumb, but it’s an out of character move.

Blue Marvel really doesn’t have better feats than Ben. His best feats involve brief brawls against characters (Iron man, Ares, Wonder man, Ms Marvel, Namor etc) or wins over jobbers/unimpressive characters (King Hyperion and Ultimate Hulk) or fights that are pretty much inconclusive (Depowered Pagan) and fights that pretty much have context which makes them less impressive (Sentry, Ultimo) like I said, to each there own, everyone has a different method on how they approach characters (some use intent others focus on feats) I’m more of a fan of feats/consistency and I really don’t think Ben is going to lose to Blue Marvel, at best he has had short brawls with high tiers whereas Ben has had longer brawls, victories and better feats overall.

They might stop at Apocalypse.

@cosmoman said:

@noobmaster2001 said:

@apex_pretador: @owie: Just skimmed your post Owie, I want to note a few things:

• The writer of the Blue Marvel series noted that Sentry wasn’t at 100%, he noted on Twitter that the anti matter around was screwing with his powers.
• Dr Doom has had many defeats to the Thing, I know he has won over Ben as well but it’s not just a one way street.
• King Hyperion apparently killed an alternate universe version of Galactus yet went on to job to people like Blue Marvel, Namorita, Mimic etc I think you are better focusing on feats than statements (that isn’t really backed up by anything) else

• we get crap like him being Sentry level even though he lost to a weakened Sentry.

• jobbers/unimpressive characters (King Hyperion and Ultimate Hulk)

Hey, you know we've done this dance before 😀, just a couple of note's on your notes~

• The writer of Blue Marvel went out of his way to say the Anti-matter did not have the effect of Kryptonite and did not weaken Sentry like any past encounters. Sentry still got KO'd:

• Blue marvel has only fought Dr. Doom once and given Ben has also lost to him as well this is forgivable. The spell that put Blue marvel down impressed Morrigan Le Fay herself (here), so that's nothing to hold against him and the second time Blue Marvel caught Doom he countered his attack:

• I can respect your position on feats >> Statements, but the statements always have context backing them. Also that wasn't Namora who Hyperion too on and killed, that was a Freshly dipped Namora, the one nearly equal to Namor (speaking of, Namor said Blue marvel hits as hard as Thor/Hulk):

Gallery

• Along with Sentry being confirmed by the writer as not being physically weakened in that fight (Sentry had to hit Blue Marvel from behind and was still about to collapse from a single punch), Blue marvel also took punches from Symbioids described by him and Maestro as Sentry level hitters. Blue marvel is definitely just below Sentry's paygrade:

Gallery

• I would argue that neither of those dudes are unimpressive nor jobbers, and while the Ultimo thing does have context in the same issue Blue Marvel's presence made Thor (with Jarnbjorn, still powerful) think twice. I respect your opinion that Thing > Blue Marvel, just posting Blue Marvel's feats/context for those who might not know.

I'd like to note that kryptonite can kill Superman, which anti-matter does not do to Sentry. It has a well defined, consistent history however, of making him unstable ("screws with his powers"), Making his void personality stronger which makes him weaker. The fact that grevioux still acknowledged it as a weakness still indicates that sentry was weaker, obviously. Just because it's not like kryptonite in that it completely depowers or kills him doesn't mean that it doesn't negatively affect his power, there's not a single feat where sentry interacts with anti-matter that doesn't leave him somewhat weaker.

Blue marvel has only fought Dr. Doom once and given Ben has also lost to him as well this is forgivable. The spell that put Blue marvel down impressed Morrigan Le Fay herself (here), so that's nothing to hold against him and the second time Blue Marvel caught Doom he countered his attack:

Blue marvel got oneshotted, not much of a fight. Matching his bolts is alright, not that impressive for a high tier but the spell he used against Blue Marvel was the suns of cinnibus, which if you look up is primary a utility spell lol. This is all doom without his armor.

Also that wasn't Namora who Hyperion too on and killed, that was a Freshly dipped Namora, the one nearly equal to Namor

Right but you should consider that thing has recently casually overpowered namor while underwater, so king hyperion, who initially beat BM getting his neck snapped by a somewhat sub-namor opponent really doesn't bode well for him being some sentry+ tier opponent.

Along with Sentry being confirmed by the writer as not being physically weakened in that fight

this was never said, in fact grevioux still acknowledged it as a weakness. By consistency we know that anti-matter weakens sentry and even by grevioux's statement we know it messes with his powers, which by definition means that his fight with Blue Marvel would be unreliable because we at least, ignoring what anti-matter consistently does, wouldn't know if sentry was at full power or was being screwed with.

Blue marvel also took punches from Symbioids described by him and Maestro as Sentry level hitters. Blue marvel is definitely just below Sentry's paygrade:

Those symbioids were peices of sentry, it took dozens of them to make up the actual (alternate universe) sentry, and you do realize that the entirety of the ultimates (including some street levelers) were able to take them on?

Blue Marvel's presence made Thor (with Jarnbjorn, still powerful) think twice.

I mean i agree that blue marvel has a lot of hype, but in reality he doesn't have much substance. Thor was also ready to fight, it was someone else on his etam that reminded him that both monica and brashear were on, and it was the two of them that made him pause.

@cosmoman said:

@battle123axe said:

• "I'd like to note that kryptonite can kill Superman It has a well defined, consistent history however, of making him unstable"

• "spell he used against Blue Marvel was the suns of cinnibus, which if you look up is primary a utility spell lol."

• "Right but you should consider that thing has recently casually overpowered namor while underwater, so king hyperion, who initially beat BM getting his neck snapped by a somewhat sub-namor opponent really doesn't bode well for him being some sentry+ tier opponent."

• "because we at least, ignoring what anti-matter consistently does, wouldn't know if sentry was at full power or was being screwed with."

• you do realize that the entirety of the ultimates (including some street levelers) were able to take them on?

• I mean i agree that blue marvel has a lot of hype, but in reality he doesn't have much substance.

• You mention the previous effects of Anti-matter on Sentry, when the author himself says previous effects are moot when it comes to what he intended. If you have proof it weakened Sentry physically, I'd like to see it. Also Kryptonite can kill Superman, but what it does in EVERY instance is weaken him physically. That is what the author specifically said did not happen to Sentry:

• Actually The Suns of Cinnibus has effected the right hand man of Dormammu, as well as Nightmare in his own realm. It also impressed Morrigan Le Fay, nuff said. And yes, unlike the first time when Blue marvel got caught off guard he matches Doom this time
• Great point, but getting your neck snapped by a Freshly dipped Namor level opponent is something that would happen to Thing. After all, Namora did sneak up on K.Hyperion (context):

• The Writer told us, it wasn't like what was previously shown so that is out the picture. It's also not like Kryptonite, which weakens Superman. So physically he was well enough to where the fight was still substantial.
• Those Symbiods had the power of Sentry from 2 sources, and you do realize "taking on" doesn't mean anyone besides Blue Marvel got tagged by them right?
• Blue Marvel has plenty of "Substance", but he could have more and I couldn't deny that. As for the Thor thing, yeah Blue marvel was 1 of the 2 that made Thor fall back. That is huge, as is Namor's compliment of Blue Marvel comparing him to Thor and Hulk.

You mention the previous effects of Anti-matter on Sentry, when the author himself says previous effects are moot when it comes to what he intended. If you have proof it weakened Sentry physically, I'd like to see it. Also Kryptonite can kill Superman, but what it does in EVERY instance is weaken him physically. That is what the author specifically said did not happen to Sentry:

Regardless, if we're going to analyze grevioux's syntax, he said that it screws with sentry's powers, and he acknowledges it is a weakness. I'd like for you to place "screws with his powers" in any context that doesnt end up with him overall weaker.

Actually The Suns of Cinnibus has effected the right hand man of Dormammu, as well as Nightmare in his own realm. It also impressed Morrigan Le Fay, nuff said. And yes, unlike the first time when Blue marvel got caught off guard he matches Doom this time

She said "well done" as an acknowledgement. She wasn't awestruck or anything, you say well done to anyone that does something deserving acknowledgement, which i suppose oneshotting Blue marvel was.

Affected =/= oneshotted. Nightmare in his own realm is massively inconsistent, and does this right hand man even have any feats? Blue marvel matched doom using a different attack, and he matched him for all of a panel. Again, not that impressive for a high tier.

Great point, but getting your neck snapped by a Freshly dipped Namor level opponent is something that would happen to Thing. After all, Namora did sneak up on K.Hyperion (context):

what?Thing has been stalemating and beating namor since the 60s, and has straight up overpowered him underwater, namor has never had any fight with thing that indicate he'd be able to overpower him to such a degree, much less a sub namor level opponent. Also, Exiles namora is not the same as 616 namora, does she even have any feats? King Hyperion was also temporarily ko'ed by a colossus level weight at half light speed, which is mountain level by KE.

The Writer told us, it wasn't like what was previously shown so that is out the picture. It's also not like Kryptonite, which weakens Superman. So physically he was well enough to where the fight was still substantial.

The fact that he was weakened to an unknown degree and they were still roughly even should tell us enough to be perfectly honest. And Grevioux never said it didn't weaken sentry at all, he in fact acknowledged it was a weakness, he even quantified it as screwing with his powers. i.e. making them unstable, which makes him weaker by definition of how his power works.

Those Symbiods had the power of Sentry from 2 sources, and you do realize "taking on" doesn't mean anyone besides Blue Marvel got tagged by them right?

i mean.... does that matter? Do you legitimately think that they were sentry level if the ultimates could take on a dozen of them for the entirety of the issue, and Maestro walked off getting ganged up on by a dozen of them? People like ms america, white fox, and black panther were knocking them around and knocking them back, how is that sentry level?

Blue Marvel has plenty of "Substance", but he could have more and I couldn't deny that. As for the Thor thing, yeah Blue marvel was 1 of the 2 that made Thor fall back. That is huge, as is Namor's compliment of Blue Marvel comparing him to Thor and Hulk.

As I said, a whole lotta statements.

@cosmoman said:

@battle123axe said:

• "screws with his powers" in any context that doesnt end up with him overall weaker.
• "She said "well done" as an acknowledgement. She wasn't awestruck or anything, you say well done to anyone that does something deserving acknowledgement, which i suppose oneshotting Blue marvel was."
• "Affected =/= oneshotted. Nightmare in his own realm is massively inconsistent, and does this right hand man even have any feats?"

• " King Hyperion was also temporarily ko'ed by a colossus level weight at half light speed, which is mountain level by KE."

• "The fact that he was weakened to an unknown degree and they were still roughly even should tell us enough to be perfectly honest. And Grevioux never said it didn't weaken sentry at all, he in fact acknowledged it was a weakness, he even quantified it as screwing with his powers. i.e. making them unstable, which makes him weaker by definition of how his power works."

• "People like ms america, white fox, and black panther were knocking them around and knocking them back, how is that sentry level?"

• "As I said, a whole lotta statements."

• "Screws with his powers" could mean a lack of Light manipulation. Physically is what matters in a fight, and there is no proof Sentry was "weaker" physically when he got TKO'd, on the contrary the author suggests physically he was not weakened.
• Read the scan again dude, Morrigan Le Fay said "Suns of Cinnibus. Well done." Emphasis on done, it is not your average spell and the fact he could utilize it clearly earned her praise.
• The henchman of Dormammu was next in line for the throne of the Dark Dimension and Clea's direct kin. The Sun of Cinnus seared him. And even effecting nightmare is impressive, and the Bolts that Blue Marvel matched was definitely impressive given Doom himself is pretty high tier.
• You don't think a freshly dipped Namor (who has given Ben a fight) could snap the neck of Thing if he had the surprise advantage... not buying it. Also people brought up Namorita not me, although as Namora's counterpart she killed all the heroes of her land. That at least puts her on her mainstream counterpart's level, and half the speed of light half Colossus durability charge would kill most high tiers and I don't trust Fan calc so where is this mountain level coming from? It's not official.
• You'd have a point, if "Screwing with his powers" didn't mean any of Sentry's myriad of abilities. We don't know which ones it was, but we DO know it wasn't his physicals because it was nothing like Kryptonite nor the past.
• I could see if any of those guys you listed got punched by the Symbiotes ("punch like the Sentry" would hold much less weight), but symbiotes are pliable so being hurt means less to them given they're gooey like Venom. No one took a punch from them, while Blue marvel was hit and kept going. The feat speaks for itself.
• Statements give great insights to a character, especially off-panel fights. If a character said it happened, it's marvel history whether one likes it or not. There's a difference between "He COULD tank a Nuke!" And "He's already taken Nukes." statements. I get your preference when it comes to feats but a feat is a feat.

"Screws with his powers" could mean a lack of Light manipulation. Physically is what matters in a fight, and there is no proof Sentry was "weaker" physically when he got TKO'd, on the contrary the author suggests physically he was not weakened.

You're reaching pretty hard here. If it was light manipulation, why didn't grevioux say so? Why assume it wasn't physically? There's no proof that he was weakened or had his powers screwed with in any way, he didn't look any different than he did fighting hercules for example. Yet, we know from circumstantial evidence and from the author's statement that his powers were screwed with, so logically it must mean all his powers.

Even if it was just energy manipulation, some of sentry's most impressive fights had him heavily use energy attacks, so that would be less impressive for blue marvel. Also, all of sentry's powers originate from the same source, his ability to manipulate molecules.

Gallery

So if anything screwed with his powers, by common sense it'd have screwed with all of his powers by the fact that they are all interconnected. After all, it's never been shown in any media that anti-matter or any of his other weaknesses like mental instability only specifically affects his energy powers and not his physicals, so why assume so here?

Read the scan again dude, Morrigan Le Fay said "Suns of Cinnibus. Well done." Emphasis on done, it is not your average spell and the fact he could utilize it clearly earned her praise.

As i said, well done is not a ridiculous honorific or anything. People say well done to feats in the real world that aren't the maximum possible level someone can do something. If anything, it looks more a compliment on doom's knowledge of spells than the spell's power. I'd agree that it's not your average spell but it's not something vastly impressive for someone on doom's caliber either, he's one of marvel's top magicians, but nobody makes a big deal out of it when dr strange, doom's superior, uses it, so why is this time different? There's nothing about this spell that would indicate to me that it'd oneshot someone like thor or hulk, so why is blue marvel, who's supposed to be on their level, given a break?

The henchman of Dormammu was next in line for the throne of the Dark Dimension and Clea's direct kin. The Sun of Cinnus seared him.

Right but you still haven't quantified how impressive that is. A more powerful magician hurting and not putting down someone featless doesn't automatically better.

And even effecting nightmare is impressive,

I mean nightmare is regularly hulk's plaything in his own realm, so idk about that. You still haven't quantified it besides just telling me it's impressive.

and the Bolts that Blue Marvel matched was definitely impressive given Doom himself is pretty high tier.

See as above. You can't just scale every fodder spell doom uses to his best possible spells, especially when the bolts of balthakk are in essence featless, and are just used to push back more powerful foes. If it was the flames of the faltine or the crimson bands, certainly, but this? I'll need actual feats. There's nothing implying that it's any better than the blasts extremis iron man stalemated.

You don't think a freshly dipped Namor (who has given Ben a fight) could snap the neck of Thing if he had the surprise advantage... not buying it.

He's literally never shown any sort of capability anywhere like that??? so no? Thing has shown to be able to shrug off his strongest blows, even surprise attacks so no???

Also people brought up Namorita not me, although as Namora's counterpart she killed all the heroes of her land.

So the featless namora killed featless heroes

That at least puts her on her mainstream counterpart's level,

You can't just use alternate feats ffs. Killing all the heroes of her land would make her like >>>hulk thor and sentry level, does she have any actual feats.

and half the speed of light half Colossus durability charge would kill most high tiers and I don't trust Fan calc so where is this mountain level coming from? It's not official.

...it's not official-

It's kinetic energy, literally high school phsyics

KE=1/2mv^2

mass is 500 pounds or so, velocity is 1/2 the speed of light, it's a single step equation. Not even a calculation, an equation. There's nothing given to us that would make us assume that it's high tier killing level, so why assume it here? That's like saying, "oh thor got knocked out by a fist going at mach 2, that must be high tier level" No??? Literally high school math says that that 500 lbs (colossus' official weight) at 1/2 the speed of light is equal to 10 tsar bombs, which really wouldn't kill any high tier.

if you're looking for an instance in comics, then Namor for instance has tanked a sucker attack rod moving at the speed of light (2x the speed) and got right up.

By the same principle of kinetic energy, ignoring infinite mass and all that, namor's attack was exponentially stronger. and he tanked it.

You'd have a point, if "Screwing with his powers" didn't mean any of Sentry's myriad of abilities.

But... that's not what it means... it's powers, plural. They all derive from the same source too, and sentry has never ever once had a singular power of his messed with without having it affect his overall power level.

We don't know which ones it was, but we DO know it wasn't his physicals because it was nothing like Kryptonite nor the past.

this is a reed richards tier reach. Screws with his powers = affects his overall power level, this is common sense. In fact, if it messed with his powers by having them inconsistent (one moment weaker and another stronger) then that would neither be like kryptonite or previous times, yet would still affect his physicals.

So no, we don't know anything.

I could see if any of those guys you listed got punched by the Symbiotes ("punch like the Sentry" would hold much less weight), but symbiotes are pliable so being hurt means less to them given they're gooey like Venom. No one took a punch from them, while Blue marvel was hit and kept going. The feat speaks for itself.

But another statement was that they are sentry level. You're cherrypicking the statements you want to use now, you can't take the statement that they hit like sentry but dismiss them being sentry level. Regardless, Maestro took being ganged up by half a dozen on them and punched for several pages, and he was completely fine. This is the same masestro that hercules easily overpowered in Maestro's own series.

Also, it took all of them merging together to create one sentry.

Also, do you really think that the ultimates fought them for an entire issue, the street levellers doing it hand to hand, and not a single one of them got hit? BS.

Statements give great insights to a character, especially off-panel fights. If a character said it happened, it's marvel history whether one likes it or not. There's a difference between "He COULD tank a Nuke!" And "He's already taken Nukes." statements. I get your preference when it comes to feats but a feat is a feat.

Right, so how is "hey thor you probably don't want to fight the two of them together" that much of a statement? Also, namor has been hit by dozens of people who hit as hard if not harder than thor or hulk, so that statement is in question.

@cosmoman said:

@battle123axe said:

• If it was light manipulation, why didn't grevioux say so? Why assume it wasn't physically?
• Also, all of sentry's powers originate from the same source, his ability to manipulate molecules. all of his powers by the fact that they are all interconnected. After all, it's never been shown in any media

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• not something vastly impressive for someone on doom's caliber either, he's one of marvel's top magicians,

• Right but you still haven't quantified how impressive that is. A more powerful magician hurting and not putting down someone featless doesn't automatically better.

• I mean nightmare is regularly hulk's plaything in his own realm, so idk about that. You still haven't quantified it besides just telling me it's impressive.

• If it was the flames of the faltine or the crimson bands, certainly, but this? I'll need actual feats. There's nothing implying that it's any better than the blasts extremis iron man stalemated.

• He's literally never shown any sort of capability anywhere like that??? so no? Thing has shown to be able to shrug off his strongest blows, even surprise attacks so no????

• So the featless namora killed featless heroes

• You can't just use alternate feats ffs. Killing all the heroes of her land would make her like >>>hulk thor and sentry level, does she have any actual feats.

• Literally high school math says that that 500 lbs (colossus' official weight) at 1/2 the speed of light is equal to 10 tsar bombs, which really wouldn't kill any high tier.
• if you're looking for an instance in comics, then Namor for instance has tanked a sucker attack rod moving at the speed of light (2x the speed) and got right up.

By the same principle of kinetic energy, ignoring infinite mass and all that, namor's attack was exponentially stronger. and he tanked it.

• and sentry has never ever once had a singular power of his messed with without having it affect his overall power level.

• In fact, if it messed with his powers by having them inconsistent (one moment weaker and another stronger) then that would neither be like kryptonite or previous times, yet would still affect his physicals.

• Regardless, Maestro took being ganged up by half a dozen on them and punched for several pages, and he was completely fine. This is the same masestro that hercules easily overpowered in Maestro's own series.

• Also, do you really think that the ultimates fought them for an entire issue, the street levellers doing it hand to hand, and not a single one of them got hit? BS.

• Also, namor has been hit by dozens of people who hit as hard if not harder than thor or hulk, so that statement is in question.

• I'm not saying it was light specifically, I am saying it could have been any endless combination (Light/healing/Sentry has lots of powers). What we know is what the Author said, it is not like Kryptonite weakness, nor is it like the other instances from the past. To assume it weakened him physically/Strength wise would require proof especially when Sentry never noted it himself. This is a fan made weakness that isn't even acknowledged in the comic.To ay he was physically weaker when the author insists Antimatter didn't effect him in a typical wweaknessis unfounded.

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• You keep mentioning past instances, when the author is clear that the past weakness does not apply here. Thank you for the insight on Sentry's powers, still the author said for this fight Antimatter did not act as Kryptonite so it didn't weaken him in the traditional sense. Whatever powers it DID effect, is speculation at best.
• Doom is powerful, but Morrigan Le Fay knows his level better than most. The fact she was impressed and the emphasis on "done" indicate she was impressed with the execution or work done, not so much his knowledge. There was no surprise in it knocking Blue Marvel out, this was a spell that even surprised a Magical High tier and yeah it could probably knock Thor down enough for soon to get away. Especially by surprise.
• The guy was Heir to the Dark Dimension... it doesn't get more powerful than that. He was also the spouse of Umar, and the Seven Suns of Cinnibus still hurt him. He also had sex with Umar, so... you know, multiversal.
• Regularly Hulk's plaything? I'm sure there's context not included, as for Nightmare being hurt by it in his realm, here is a respect thread on Nightmare.
• I could understand that. Your scan with him clashing with Iron man doesn't apply because it's just standard energy (as opposed to a spell that summons the power of a being equal to Cyttorak . More on his connection to Cyttorak)
• Seriously, when has Thing No-sold underwater Namor? If he even flinched, that means Namor can snap his neck. Hold his own or be slightly dominant over Dipper namor? Ok. No sell? Never heard of it.
• If saying she was "Namorita" was a legit argument, so is Namora. I see no reason why she's weaker given her feats of Hero murdering.
• I never said it was an EXACT thing, because we don't know how she killed them. Could have been prep. It's just noteworthy, so cracking Hyperion's neck fits right in with that vague strength.
• It didn't Kill Hyperion, by your own Calculations (i'll go out on a limb and assume you paid attention in class) 10 Tsar bombs only knocked him out temporarily.

• Namor can be OP, he also broke the crimson bands of Cyttorak, what issue was that just in case?
• Throw everything you knew about Sentry out for the Blue Marvel fight, the Author said it wasnt like previous encounters. Also he said it didn't weaken him like Kryptonite (physically).
• So you're willing to argue that Sentry was amped when fighting BM? You keep assuming it was all powers when that was never stated. All we know is it wasn't like weakening Kryptonite. The author never said weakened, where are you trying to go with this?
• LOL, yeah let's ignore Maestro saying they are Sentry level (which they would be if they punch like the Sentry), and now Maestro (an enhanced hulk) is weak because of 1 Hercules encounter now? Lol, that's pretty desperate my guy. Just because they have weaker durability doesn't change the fact if they punch you it's Sentry level. Maestro no selling them is kind of a given nor is it an Anti-feat. Nice try.

• None of them got hit. It's comics, what did you expect? Street levelers fight people they're not supposed to daily.
• Because lue Marvel and Monica are each significant enough to make the Thunder God turn tail. Both of them are sizable threats in his eyes, that is impressive. Also, no. By that time the most memorable fights to Namor were probably just those (Thor/Hulk), he is confirming they are all in the same class so if YOU find it in question, ok. But Namor didn't question it.

I'm not saying it was light specifically, I am saying it could have been any endless combination (Light/healing/Sentry has lots of powers).

Why? Reach.

What we know is what the Author said, it is not like Kryptonite weakness, nor is it like the other instances from the past. To assume it weakened him physically/Strength wise would require proof especially when Sentry never noted it himself.

As i said, it's not like there's any proof it weakened him any other way, so by that argument you could say it didn't weaken him at all. Which isn't true.

This is a fan made weakness that isn't even acknowledged in the comic.

Tf do you mean fan made? Do you want me to get the 10+ scans of sentry specifically noting he has a weakness to antimatter?

To ay he was physically weaker when the author insists Antimatter didn't effect him in a typical wweaknessis unfounded.

The author literally says it's a weakness. Not like kryptonite could mean a whole lot of things at any given time considering that kryptonite is incredibly inconsistent.

Wonderman doesn't have an anti-matter weakness, and they exchanged exactly two punches. Inconclusive.

Sentry does have an anti-matter weakness, as acknowledged by grevioux himself.

You keep mentioning past instances, when the author is clear that the past weakness does not apply here.

No, i'm saying theres 0 instances ever for sentry in general for whatever weakness (not just anti-matter) affecting specific powers. Like i'm not talking about the anti-matter weakness that grevioux is, i'm saying any time sentry has ever been weaker point blank. There's not a single thing beyond headcanon that supports your opinion.

Thank you for the insight on Sentry's powers, still the author said for this fight Antimatter did not act as Kryptonite so it didn't weaken him in the traditional sense.Whatever powers it DID effect, is speculation at best.

Which is all that you're doing. Speculation at best. We know that all of sentry's powers are intertwined, so from the basic sense if it messed with one power it messed with all of them. As i said, causing his powers to fluctuate would still be weakening him, wouldn't be like kryptonite, and is more viable than depowering specific powers which isn't how sentry works.

Doom is powerful, but Morrigan Le Fay knows his level better than most. The fact she was impressed and the emphasis on "done" indicate she was impressed with the execution or work done, not so much his knowledge.

the basic definition of the phrase means that she approved of it, not was impressed.

There was no surprise in it knocking Blue Marvel out, this was a spell that even surprised a Magical High tier and yeah it could probably knock Thor down enough for soon to get away. Especially by surprise.

There's 0 proof of this besides muh morgana said he did a good joob.

Doom has fought thor before and he's never been able to do anything like that with his best attacks, so why do you think this featless attack would?

The guy was Heir to the Dark Dimension... it doesn't get more powerful than that.

FEATS, PLEASE. A STATEMENT. SOMETHING besides "well he was a heir". Maximus is technically a heir to the Inhuman royal throne, that doesn't make him Black bolt level does he?

He was also the spouse of Umar, and the Seven Suns of Cinnibus still hurt him. He also had sex with Umar, so... you know, multiversal.

Savage hulk has had sex with umar, green scar had sex with umar from dawn till day. I guess multiversal hulk, which means multiversal thing!

Regularly Hulk's plaything? I'm sure there's context not included, as for Nightmare being hurt by it in his realm, here is a respect thread on Nightmare.

Notice how the respect thread doesn't have a durability section? Immortal hulk has scared the shit out of nightmare too, BTW. Thing has beat up D'spayre, a hell lord on nightmare's level.

I could understand that. Your scan with him clashing with Iron man doesn't apply because it's just standard energy (as opposed to a spell that summons the power of a being equal to Cyttorak . More on his connection to Cyttorak)

I mean sentry straight overpowered him while he was channeling cytorrak... sooo

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The level of the beign you summon doesn't mean much, how the spell itself fares is more important.

Seriously, when has Thing No-sold underwater Namor? If he even flinched, that means Namor can snap his neck. Hold his own or be slightly dominant over Dipper namor? Ok. No sell? Never heard of it.

I'll give you no-sell being too hyperbolic of a term, but it's not like thing has never had namor get him into a position with his arms around his neck either.... It didn't work to even damage him, let alone snap his neck.

If saying she was "Namorita" was a legit argument, so is Namora. I see no reason why she's weaker given her feats of Hero murdering.

Huh? Can you post scans of these feats of hero murdering? If we take alt universe murdering feats seriously, then King hyperion murdered his universes galactus....

`I never said it was an EXACT thing, because we don't know how she killed them. Could have been prep. It's just noteworthy, so cracking Hyperion's neck fits right in with that vague strength.

If it was prep... then that has nothing to do with strength... Either she didn't beat them physically, making her featless, or she did, making her like thanos level. Pick one.

It didn't Kill Hyperion, by your own Calculations (i'll go out on a limb and assume you paid attention in class) 10 Tsar bombs only knocked him out temporarily.

What? You said it'd kill any high tier... it wouldn't even knock one out.... Hulk has no-sold nuclear bombs that devastated islands and actual tsar bombs, thor has no-sold being in the sun, hell iron man has no-sold nuclear weapons that were visible against the moon. 10 tsar bombs is not impressive for someone on his caliber to be straight KO'ed by.

Also, it's not even a matter of class, it's literally kinetic energy, i got that number from google lol.

Namor can be OP, he also broke the crimson bands of Cyttorak, what issue was that just in case?

Yeah but namor being exponentially more durable than kIng hyperion isn't a good look for him... Especially considering that namor is consistently thing tier or lower.

It's in one of the original Sub-mariner issues, i don't remember which specific ones, sorry.

Here are the scans though:

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So you're willing to argue that Sentry was amped when fighting BM?

.....how would that be a weakness....

You keep assuming it was all powers when that was never stated.

Because that's how sentry's powers work ffs. There's no way that it could be one power because that's not how sentry works, this is literally kryptonite.

All we know is it wasn't like weakening Kryptonite. The author never said weakened, where are you trying to go with this?

"not that kind of weakness" still says that it's a kind of weakness. Just not like kryptonite specifically, which is very vague.

LOL, yeah let's ignore Maestro saying they are Sentry level (which they would be if they punch like the Sentry),

that was my point....

and now Maestro (an enhanced hulk) is weak because of 1 Hercules encounter now? Lol, that's pretty desperate my guy.

Lmao this was a hercules encounter UNDER HIS OWN CREATOR. Who said in the comic that he wasn't as strong as hulk.

1. Current maestro has literally none of his best feat (best feat singular, he's really not that impressive)
2. The list of people who have hurt maestro includes professor hulk, captain marvel, an alternate thing, an alternate sentry, Old man logan (who beat him but got stomped by cho hulk), got his neck snapped by hulk 2099, a scrap iron man armor's detached repulsor, featless ruby summer etc.

Just because they have weaker durability doesn't change the fact if they punch you it's Sentry level. Maestro no selling them is kind of a given nor is it an Anti-feat. Nice try.

Like maestro that series was hurt by ares but half a dozen sentry level opponents can't put him down? What feats does maestro even have that would imply that?

None of them got hit. It's comics, what did you expect? Street levelers fight people they're not supposed to daily.

None of them got hit on panel, we don't know what happened off panel

sure street levellers fight individual people like that occasionally and do well, but do you honestly expect me to believe that street levellers can hold up against a team of people supposedly on the level of one of the most powerful heroes on earth and do fine? Street levellers doing that is a feat for them because they have other feats, the symbioids have literally no feats besides being stalemated by the ultimates lol. Also what does that prove regardless? Blue marvel can take a single punch from sentry? OK? and?

Because lue Marvel and Monica are each significant enough to make the Thunder God turn tail. Both of them are sizable threats in his eyes, that is impressive. Also, no. By that time the most memorable fights to Namor were probably just those (Thor/Hulk), he is confirming they are all in the same class so if YOU find it in question, ok. But Namor didn't question it.

Sure, i'll let that statement go. Thing has statements of that caliber and even greater so i don't really mind.

Put blue marvel right under absorbing man pls. He’s way too strong for number 3 he ends the duo at 3

@noobmaster2001: @battle123axe: @professorrespect: I'm sorry, I don't have the time to respond to what has become a super complicated debate at this point. I've mostly said what I meant to say, and I am trying in general not to go in circles in debates these days. To be very concise, I think noobmaster made the best points against Blue Marvel here, although I don't necessarily agree. Meanwhile I do more or less agree with @cosmoman and appreciate him taking on Marvel's side.

The one point I want to make about Marvel, in regard to statements, is that most of the statements about or by him are based on things that are seen on panel to some degree, but not completely. For instance taking care of the meteor the size of Arkansas. We see a video of him doing this, although we don't see the meteor or exactly how he's flying/lifting it. So just to be clear, almost all those statements do refer to some real event that definitely happened, we just don't have the details. So they are actually feats in addition to statements. Or, they are statements of estimation by someone who should know, like the Watcher saying he could crack the moon, Marvel himself saying King Hyperion hit harder than Sentry, or Namor saying only Thor and Hulk have punched him that hard. If real specific feats definitively contradict those statements, then that's worthwhile to take into account, but honestly I still don't see that negative evidence--maybe mitigating evidence, but not what it would take to say those statements should be ignored.

OK I guess one more thing. I think Grevioux's statement about Sentry being weakened is ambiguous. It supports both sides of the argument. He says he was weakened, but not like Kryptonite. But honestly, I think the most standard interpretation of what Kryptonite does is to weaken. So the statement doesn't help me one way or the other, and I go back to the fact that there's no evidence of Sentry being weakened in the comic at all, and in fact he acts entirely as if he's full of vim, vigor, and vitality as one of my teachers used to say. So how antimatter has affected him elsewhere doesn't do much for me. But if it does for you, fine. But if we do include Grevioux's statements, he also said, "As long as I'm writing the character, he won't be so strong that he makes other characters look foolish. He is just in the same league as the Hulk, Thor, Superman, Sentry, Orion, J'onn J'onzz, etc. He's NOT above them." (Apparently from a Newsarama forum discussion he was in where the original page no longer exists.) Which, again, is a balanced statement. I would honestly put him a bit lower, again at a Hyperion/Gladiator level, as I said earlier. Which is still pretty darn good.

OK that was longer than intended. Anyway, thanks for the conversation.

I was tempted to say stops at 5, but I'm not really sure tbh. Not getting past 10 though that's for sure.

Stops at 3 or 5

@owie: The problem with Blue Marvel is while everyone can acknowledge he is meant to be a Hulk/Thor level character, he doesn't REALLY have any of theirs impressive feats and more so relies on statements or fights that usually have lots of context behind them. The fact that one of the feats you mentioned which is his fight with Sentry which has it's share of problems but even disregarding that Sentry is also a character that is all over the place in terms of feats and showings, he can go from being manhandled and laughed at by Rulk, getting overcharged by Jim Hammond of all people to fighting Genis-Veil while worlds blow up around them and stalemating one of the strongest versions of Hulk in a fight that according to the writer almost destroyed the world, so using Sentry as a benchmark also isn't the best thing because his preformances vary greatly from book to book.

As it stands BM is decent and is Hulk/Thor tier only in statements but not in actual feats.

@owie: I was looking at Blue Marvel's position like Huh. I think that's where they stop. All the reasons you mentioned.