Thing and Hercules vs. Thor and Beta Ray Bill H2H fight

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NovaPrime2

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Poll Thing and Hercules vs. Thor and Beta Ray Bill H2H fight (35 votes)

Thing and Hercules 40%
Thor and Bill 60%
  • Purely a H2H fight
  • Random encounter
  • Morals off
  • Win by KO or Death
  • Takes place on Warworld
 • 
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deathoes

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Thor and BRB win mid difficulty, good fight though I enjoy H2h matchups and this one would be a doozy of a slobberknocker. .

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NovaPrime2

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@deathoes said:

Thor and BRB win mid difficulty, good fight though I enjoy H2h matchups and this one would be a doozy of a slobberknocker. .

Thank you. Any reasons why you think they'd win?

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The_Hajduk

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Hercules beats Thor in H2H which is confirmed.

The hard fight is Thing vs Bill. If it is H2H then you can put my money on Thing. Bill does not have a lot of H2H feats while Thing has fought virtually everybody who matters in Marvel in H2H combat at one point, and he's always done well.

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SAR_Annihilator

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Hercules beats Thor in H2H which is confirmed.

The hard fight is Thing vs Bill. If it is H2H then you can put my money on Thing. Bill does not have a lot of H2H feats while Thing has fought virtually everybody who matters in Marvel in H2H combat at one point, and he's always done well.

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AKZ

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H2H Herc outclasses both, so he should take Thor out.

Ben is disposed of by Bill who then loses to Herc.

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Darth_Nimrod

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Hercules and the Thing, but it's close.

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juiceboks

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#7 juiceboks  Moderator

Team 1

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Noobmaster2001

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I'm going to back team 1. Great fight though.

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SAR_Annihilator

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SupremeGeneration

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Team 2... I think...

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AKZ

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Rlly no.

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Antebellum

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Team 1.

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deactivated-60f4940f2eb6f

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Team 1

more skilled

Thing is physically superior to all though

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NovaPrime2

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I'm going to back team 1. Great fight though.

Thank you.

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NovaPrime2

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Team 1

more skilled

Thing is physically superior to all though

Is he really?

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ODIN619360

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Herc is alot closer to Thor than people would give credit. Personally it likeky ends. Thor and Bill double teaming Herc and Herc is not taking them both on.

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AKZ

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deactivated-60f4940f2eb6f

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@alonis3612 said:

Team 1

more skilled

Thing is physically superior to all though

Is he really?

He could take Devil Hulk's strongest punches for 90 minutes and even do some damage to him and even momentarily knock him out, whereas Thor got his skull broken and nearly died from a single punch by Devil Hulk.. based on this he should be

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AKZ

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@odin619360: Ben can distract Bill for a bit, maybe give him some light bruises, then after Herc knocks Thor on his ass, he clowns BRB.

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Thegreatone003

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#20  Edited By Thegreatone003

@akz: Bill’s on par with Thor and Ben dominated Thor in Thor #375 as well as shown the ability to KO Thor in FF V3.

Bill’s not gonna be treating someone who went toe-to-toe with power gem champion, amped Devil Hulk, KO’d Surfer, beat the Super adaptoid, constantly stalemate Savage Hulk, and tank blasts from the multiversal beings as a distraction.

OT: Team 1

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Thegreatone003

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coolcat4

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Team 2. Herc and Thor are nearly equal in h2h. Herc narrowly edged him out so that one will be drawn out. While BRB beats Thing. Then helps Thor.

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juiceboks

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#23 juiceboks  Moderator

@akz: Bill’s on par with Thor and Ben dominated Thor in Thor #375 as well as shown the ability to KO Thor in FF V3.

Bill’s not gonna be treating someone who went toe-to-toe with power gem champion, amped Devil Hulk, KO’d Surfer, beat the Super adaptoid, constantly stalemate Savage Hulk, and tank blasts from the multiversal beings as a distraction.

OT: Team 1

Ben didn't fight Thor in Thor #375 and I'm not sure what you mean about the second reference. None of the handful of fights they've had showed Ben dominating Thor while fighting at his best in anyway, and some of them show the opposite. Your strongest point of reference is their respective encounters with Immortal Hulk, however their clashes with each other don't sell your stance very well.

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Thegreatone003

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@juiceboks: @AKZ : Wrong issue number, my b -Thor #485, Thor was holding back at first but even when he decided to he has to fight Ben, Ben was winning the fight.

Ben has had consistently solid performances against Thor outside of fear itself

Ben KO’d/ TKO’d Thor in Fantastic Four V3, #27.

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deactivated-60f4940f2eb6f

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@akz:

Bill’s not gonna be treating someone who went toe-to-toe with power gem champion

When did Thing fight a Power Gem Champion?

KO’d Surfer

Pretty sure that's classic Thing who was actually far weaker than Thor back then.

constantly stalemate Savage Hulk

Pretty sure Thing gets overpowered by him most of the time

and tank blasts from the multiversal beings as a distraction.

No Caption Provided

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IntentDebatThor

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Team 1 in a tough fight. Bill seems to be the weak link in this scenario. He is as strong as the other three, but he lacks their skill, experience and damage soak. Not to mention, Thors have a history of struggling with brick opponents even with their hammers, and Bill seems to be very reliant on his hammer in combat.

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Thegreatone003

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#28  Edited By Thegreatone003

@alonis3612:

When did Thing fight a Power Gem Champion?

Slott's She Hulk run retconned it so that Champ had the gem in his OG appearance. Discounting that, it was the same champ that easily overpowered multiple bricks including Thor, Hulk, Namor, Sasquatch, and a couple others rushing him.

Pretty sure that's classic Thing who was actually far weaker than Thor back then.

Do you have any feats comparing classic Thing and Thor? I remember Ben doing well against a mind controlled Thor, fighting on par with him against him against a couple opposing characters, and handling wonderman- who was said to be comparable to Thor. Ben also showed he was way better H2H during the champion fight.

Pretty sure Thing gets overpowered by him most of the time

Nah they were stalemates that ended due to outside factors (Ben getting distrcted by Alicia, Hulk getting shot by Doom's ray,Ben turning back into a human while having Hulk on his knees, etc.)

multiversal beings

Celestials, unamed creature from Slott's FF run, etc.

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Alphamon

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@juiceboks: I’m pretty sure his talking about that time Ben was bloodlusted and was fighting thor

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RajjarsAlt

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>Thor
>beating Herc in h2h

Thing can definitely beat an unarmed Bill.

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Thor-Parker

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People base their "Herc is a better wrestler than Thor" solely on one statement from Blood Oath and treat it as an absolute fact.

Thor >>>Herc

BRB >>>Thing

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TakenStew22

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#32 TakenStew22  Online

Either way tbh.

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Thegreatone003

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@thor-parker: Thor and Herc stalemated in strength and Thor himself admitted Herc’s better H2H- Ben’s much better than Thor H2H and shown the ability KO Thor (sucker punch) and other Thor level characters, like Wonderman.

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EternalDarkFury

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AldriffofAsgard

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Herc might win against if he's willing to utilize his skills to gain an advantage over Thor but a brawl could go either way

Bill is undoubtedly superior to The Thing physically(not by much) but Benji is a more determined fighter and overall has a good track record in h2h fights. Bill's only noteworthy h2h feats are stalemating Thor twice iirc.

IMHO, it all depends on whether Thor, BRB and Herc are performing at their best. Because the past decade has not been very nice to them, having been underwritten, or shat on by ignorant writers.

Team 1 is the safe option because Rock Monster has been pretty good lately

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juiceboks

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#36 juiceboks  Moderator

@juiceboks @AKZ : Wrong issue number, my b -Thor #485, Thor was holding back at first but even when he decided to he has to fight Ben, Ben was winning the fight.

Ben has had consistently solid performances against Thor outside of fear itself

Ben KO’d/ TKO’d Thor in Fantastic Four V3, #27.

I'd argue Thor was still holding back up to the end as Sif mentions right as Ben had him pinned, and with Thor opting to hold Ben while he calmed down instead of wailing on him when he got the opening. Ben was out for blood and Thor was holding back noticeably for most if not the entirety of the fight.

Similarly here, we know Ben and everyone else involved was holding back considerably and Wanda was the only person confirmed to be knocked out when Thor collided with her. Shortly after that we see him standing by Tony watching Ben knock away Wonder Man, which is uncharacteristic a state for Thor to be in after getting knocked out. It also isn't particularly consistent or reasonable for Ben to oneshot Thor while pulling his punches when he couldn't do any lasting damage to him when fighting mind-controlled and morals off for several pages. Ben didn't undergo a noticeable boost in strength in the 5 years between when those issues were published to make sense of those conclusions referenced contiguously.

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Samkrypt

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Team 1

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IntentDebatThor

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I'd argue Thor was still holding back up to the end as Sif mentions right as Ben had him pinned, and with Thor opting to hold Ben while he calmed down instead of wailing on him when he got the opening. Ben was out for blood and Thor was holding back noticeably for most if not the entirety of the fight.

Just the fact that Ben was capable of pinning Thor and the latter needed Ben to have his attention switched to Sif to recover is already a good indicator of who was portrayed to be stronger in that particular instance. That and Thor requiring Sif's help to restrain Ben, when Ben was already fighting back against mind control and struggled less and less against his opponents.

Similarly here, we know Ben and everyone else involved was holding back considerably

You can't exactly hold back your durability, however. The fact that he was able to knock them out, holding back or not, shows that he had the power required to do that

and Wanda was the only person confirmed to be knocked out when Thor collided with her.

They were both confirmed to be out.

No Caption Provided

"Eliminating not only our deputy leader [Scarlet Witch], but also one of the few among us capable of doing the Thing serious harm [Thor]". It wouldn't be worded that way if Wanda was the only one knocked out.

Shortly after that we see him standing by Tony watching Ben knock away Wonder Man, which is uncharacteristic a state for Thor to be in after getting knocked out.

Except we only saw Thor not just after Wonder Man was downed, but also after Ben and Cap had a talk.

No Caption Provided

The whole point of that ordeal was to not allow Ben to leave the building. Cap was the only person standing in his way after Simon was dealt with (the context of the situation and Ben's words ("ya better have enough sense to stay down after I hit'cha!") also means he wasn't merely "knocked away" either, but knocked out or beaten up to the point of incapacitation). Thor wasn't standing in his way (which would be extremely uncharacteristic if he was still capable of fighting) because he was knocked out earlier, either together with Scarlet Witch or off-panel between pages ("and so in surprisingly short order"). By the time Cap and Ben reached agreement, Thor and Tony already recovered.

It also isn't particularly consistent or reasonable for Ben to oneshot Thor while pulling his punches when he couldn't do any lasting damage to him when fighting mind-controlled and morals off for several pages.

Comics are inconsistent, sugar is sweet, this is just how it is. I will agree that Ben OHKOing Thor while holding back is not exactly reasonable (but far more reasonable than what happened between Thor and Ben in Fear Itself) because we know that opponents comparable to Ben or even stronger than him failed to one-shot Thor on many occasions, but he did show the capacity to KO opponents of Thor's caliber on other occasions nevertheless (Wonder Man being a good example of that).

Ben didn't undergo a noticeable boost in strength in the 5 years between when those issues were published to make sense of those conclusions referenced contiguously.

Well he does technically passively get stronger over time, but I see what you mean. On the other hand, Thor never ever got any permanent boosts either, yet his showings against same characters tend to be just as inconsistent.

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RajjarsAlt

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People base their "Herc is a better wrestler than Thor" solely on one statement from Blood Oath and treat it as an absolute fact.

Thor >>>Herc

BRB >>>Thing

Well that and Herc almost killing Thor with a hold...while drunk

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Thegreatone003

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#40  Edited By Thegreatone003

@juiceboks:

@juiceboks:

I'd argue Thor was still holding back up to the end as Sif mentions right as Ben had him pinned, and with Thor opting to hold Ben while he calmed down instead of wailing on him when he got the opening. Ben was out for blood and Thor was holding back noticeably for most if not the entirety of the fight.

Certainly arguable- but Thor himself said "Let it be"- implying he didn't want to fight but he knew he had to. Sif said right before they're trying to kill each other. Her saying "he does not wish to hurt you" can also be interpreted as Thor not wanting (wishing) to fight (hurt) him, but having to. Then Ben tanks a hit from Sif and a bloodlust Thor at the same time relatively easily until Thor put him in a hold (which was also aided by Sif).

Ben and everyone else involved was holding back considerably and Wanda was the only person confirmed to be knocked out when Thor collided with her.

The dialogue could be interpreted that Thor was "eliminated" as well, could go either way imo.

Bit of a stretch, but Tony mentions how there's more than enough avengers left to take Ben, referring to numbers- which could possibly mean Widow was referring to Thor when she said Ben also eliminated an avenger that can do him serious harm.

Shortly after that we see him standing by Tony watching Ben knock away Wonder Man, which is uncharacteristic a state for Thor to be in after getting knocked out. It also isn't particularly consistent or reasonable for Ben to oneshot Thor while pulling his punches when he couldn't do any lasting damage to him when fighting mind-controlled and morals off for several pages.

Well, a lot happened after Ben attacked Thor, he had an implied battle with WM, thought to himself, talked to Cap, almost fought Cap, and decided not to fight. If Thor wasn't KO'd, he would've probably helped WM against Ben. I think it's safe to assume Thor was briefly KO'd/TKO'd/floored.

The FF grows vastly stronger over time due to Cosmic absorption. Ben has shown great striking feats from the start- KO-ing a restrained savage Hulk, KO-ing Surfer, breaking champion's ribs, etc. I don't think Ben briefly KO-ing/ TKO-ing Thor with a well placed sucker punch is out of the realm of possibilities- especially considering Thor has feats such as getting a migraine from She Hulk's punches.

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Thor-Parker

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@thor-parker said:

People base their "Herc is a better wrestler than Thor" solely on one statement from Blood Oath and treat it as an absolute fact.

Thor >>>Herc

BRB >>>Thing

Well that and Herc almost killing Thor with a hold...while drunk

Yeah, the same instance from Blood Oath I'm talking about, people like to treat it as the ultimate proof when there's another dozen fights between them where they are usually portrayed as equal fighters.

@thor-parker: Thor and Herc stalemated in strength and Thor himself admitted Herc’s better H2H- Ben’s much better than Thor H2H and shown the ability KO Thor (sucker punch) and other Thor level characters, like Wonderman.

Wonder Man isn't Thor level, he's comfortably below. As for Thing knocking out Thor, I find it highly unlikely, I don't recall the instance you're talking about, but it sounds very inconsistent with what they've both shown over the years. I've read every F4 comics since Mark Waid in the early 2000s (except for Robinson's run) and I can say with confidence that Ben isn't close to Thor in physicals and has very little chance (if any) to beat him on a fight.

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RajjarsAlt

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#42  Edited By RajjarsAlt

@thor-parker: Well even in Blood Oath, there's the thought from Thor saying that in the field of battle, they were equal, which is consistent with Thor saying that in the previous battle, he didn't know who would have won. Herc. But hand-to-hand combat would be something else entirely.

If the other fights, presumably evaluated under the same H2H-being-separate-from-normal-fights standard, suggest that they are equal, how is Thor >>> Herc?

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Thegreatone003

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#43  Edited By Thegreatone003

@thor-parker:

Multiple examples of Wonder Man being comparable to Thor: https://imgur.com/a/kZlLeVW

Ben did excellent against Thor in Thor #475. Ben KO'd/TKO'd Thor in FF V3:

No Caption Provided

Other feats include his wins/stalemates with Hulk, Hercules, Super Adaptoid, Surfer, Champion, etc.

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comic_book_fan

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thing and thor h2h

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The_Swaggot

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It really depends on how fast Bill can dispatch Thing. If Bill manages to take Thing out early in the fight, then he and Thor can double-team Herc. If Bill fails to incapacitate Thing before Herc beats Thor (the most likely scenario as Thing is a very effective brick), then Thing and Herc pummel Bill.

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Thor-Parker

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@thor-parker: Well even in Blood Oath, there's the thought from Thor saying that in the field of battle, they were equal, which is consistent with Thor saying that in the previous battle, he didn't know who would have won. Herc. But hand-to-hand combat would be something else entirely.

If the other fights, presumably evaluated under the same H2H-being-separate-from-normal-fights standard, suggest that they are equal, how is Thor >>> Herc?

Because outside of their fights, Thor is the one with much better feats and is usually portrayed as the Marvel powerhouse and tide changer, often looked upon by other heroes as the powerhouse, a status and intent Hercules simply does not possess, or at least not at Thor's level and the way he's been established in-universe.

@thor-parker:

Multiple examples of Wonder Man being comparable to Thor: https://imgur.com/a/kZlLeVW

Ben did excellent against Thor in Thor #475. Ben KO'd/TKO'd Thor in FF V3:

No Caption Provided

Other feats include his wins/stalemates with Hulk, Hercules, Super Adaptoid, Surfer, Champion, etc.

Thanks for the scan, still not consistent though.

As far as I'm aware, Hulk, Hercules and Surfer have always handled Ben without much trouble, maybe there's the odd instance where they didn't, but the former is true most of the time. Don't remember about Super Adaptoid or Champion.

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Thegreatone003

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@thor-parker:

Thanks for the scan, still not consistent though.

Ben has shown great striking feats- including OHKO'ing Surfer, KO-ing a restrained Savage Hulk, Breaking the champions ribs, breaking the adamantium walls of the negative zone- him briefly KO-ing Thor with a sucker punch isn't too out of the realms of possibility tbh.

As far as I'm aware, Hulk, Hercules and Surfer have always handled Ben without much trouble, maybe there's the odd instance where they didn't, but the former is true most of the time.

Not really. All battles between Ben and Savage Hulk were stalemates that ended due to outside factors (Ben getting distracted by Alicia, Hulk getting shot by Doom's ray, Ben turning back into a human while having Hulk on his knees, etc.)

There's been about 4 encounters between Ben and Herc and 2 of them showed Ben being superior. There was one instance where Hercules cheated during a charity wrestling match by kicking Ben in the balls to get him in a leg hold but that was about it.

All encounters between Ben and Surfer were stalemates, with a couple in Ben's favor iirc.

Don't remember about Super Adaptoid or Champion.

Ben KO'd SA with the powers of Iron man, Mar-vell, Vision, Cap.

Champion was a primordial that easily overpowered Hulk, Thor, Namor, and multiple other bricks rushing him rushing him. His training equipment alone easily KO'd Doc Sampson.

No Caption Provided

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RajjarsAlt

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#48  Edited By RajjarsAlt

@thor-parker said:
@rajjarsalt said:

@thor-parker: Well even in Blood Oath, there's the thought from Thor saying that in the field of battle, they were equal, which is consistent with Thor saying that in the previous battle, he didn't know who would have won. Herc. But hand-to-hand combat would be something else entirely.

If the other fights, presumably evaluated under the same H2H-being-separate-from-normal-fights standard, suggest that they are equal, how is Thor >>> Herc?

Because outside of their fights, Thor is the one with much better feats and is usually portrayed as the Marvel powerhouse and tide changer, often looked upon by other heroes as the powerhouse, a status and intent Hercules simply does not possess, or at least not at Thor's level and the way he's been established in-universe.

That's based on the premise that these feats are outside of Herc's capabilities. What power-level do you put these feats at?

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Thor-Parker

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@thegreatone003: Fair enough, I don't really feel like getting into a lengthy debate so let's just agree to disagree.

@thor-parker said:
@rajjarsalt said:

@thor-parker: Well even in Blood Oath, there's the thought from Thor saying that in the field of battle, they were equal, which is consistent with Thor saying that in the previous battle, he didn't know who would have won. Herc. But hand-to-hand combat would be something else entirely.

If the other fights, presumably evaluated under the same H2H-being-separate-from-normal-fights standard, suggest that they are equal, how is Thor >>> Herc?

Because outside of their fights, Thor is the one with much better feats and is usually portrayed as the Marvel powerhouse and tide changer, often looked upon by other heroes as the powerhouse, a status and intent Hercules simply does not possess, or at least not at Thor's level and the way he's been established in-universe.

That's based on the premise that these feats are outside of Herc's capabilities. What power-level do you put these feats at?

I see the Hercules and Thor case in the same way many people see the Thor and Silver Surfer case. They have been portrayed as equals in pretty much all of their fights, yet it is commonly accepted that Silver Surfer is really the more powerful out of the two, due to his other feats outside of their own fights. It's the same case with Thor and Hercules, their fights are very even, but one has better feats and showings than the other, and in this case that's Thor.

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Thegreatone003

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