The strongest JLA vs the strongest Avengers

In the third comment about Beyonder, I meant to say Molecule Man took on Beyonder, who was beat by Void, who is a reality warper.

It's been proven that physical damage would have little to no effect on this Thor.

Thor fanboys vs Wally wankers.

With the occasional Surfer supporter trying to pipe in.

That's all this thread is.

Make it end......

Surfer keeps Wally at bay by absorbing his kinetic energy just long enough for Scarlet Witch to one-shot everyone with some kind of, "No Powers For YOU!!!" curse and this fights over. That's how I write it anyway. Might anger some folks but the way her powers work literally anything is possible. It's all in the author.

..But Superman who has dipped for 3 days would rip Surfer to pieces. You can't control Wally if you're already dead.

Punch him into abdomen.

LMAO.

Somebody who clearly has absolutely no idea they're talking about.

Why is Wally such a huge factor here? I'd say he's less of a factor than dipped Supes. Stop wanking.

And don't forget about Fernus. Stop discrediting all the other members because you love Wally so much.

I concur

1. I was joking.

2. A bloodlusted Silver Surfer would drain Superman within an inch of his life.

3. I'm not discounting Fernus, I just don't see who he can take. Maybe Surfer and Hulk...

Jesus. That was good. I though you were actually serious. How'd you make it so believable?

@hardcorefakes: Pretty easy. Flash fans are notoriously ignorant. So it makes other people gullible that they are serious.

...That's pure genius. Seriously. lol

The DC team has this . . Due to Parallax .

Justice League

Hey man, it's just the nature of her powers. Depending on whose doing the writing (in this case.... me) Wanda can beat anyone and everyone. When your powers are so undefined, anything is possible. Unlikely maybe... but than again she has probability powers so..... And yeah using her is sort of a B#@tch move.

Avengers.

No one can beat Aquaman

To the person that said Norrin solos, thank you. You made my night. Hahaha

Yeah but can't we just argue it like this then...Didn't the Runes give Thor the ability to see the past, present and future and the means to guide the future? If Thor can see the future then that's already an automatic win for the Marvel team. Do you know how many possibilities he can foresee in this battle(A battle that he probably is aware of before the rest) with 3 days prep? It doesn't matter if he sees a billion ways in which the avengers can fail, he only needs to see 1 way in which they can/will win and that is what they'll prep for.

Wally can then be taken out by the mere fact that he would do nothing that Thor hasn't already seen, he would run the same path Thor saw him run in his "winning" vision, he can prep accordingly even if it means that ultimately the Hulk, Surfer, Strange and Void should sacrifice themselves in order for the plan to fall into action, they could probably stall Wally long enough for Thor/SW to do what needs to be done to wipe Wally out of this battle(He would know where Wally would be at all times, he already saw it happen! ). With only Scarlet and Thor remaining they could easily solo the team on DC and even resurrect the others after the battle is over.

And in accordance to your argument, If Thor can do it, then he does it...just because you find it hard to comprehend =/= it cannot be achieved.

As much as I would like to see such a battle play out(Being a Thor fan obviously hence the Username) Thor is overkill in this battle, SW and Thor both can individually solo this battle, hell Thor probably doesn't even need the destroyer armor other than maybe packing the defeated JLA members like sardines into the armor imprisoning them there. In order to make this a bit more fair Thor needs to be removed from this fight, it doesn't help to even bring the prep down to 5mins for avengers, as 5mins is already plenty enough time to see a favorable outcome.

Marvel for the easy stomp. Wally is a non-factor in this battle.

Aquaman solo

@hardcorefakes said:

@monsterstomp said:

@hardcorefakes: Pretty easy. Flash fans are notoriously ignorant. So it makes other people gullible that they are serious.

...That's pure genius. Seriously. lol

LOL Love the smiley face.

Marvel. Probably.

Make Superman Silver Age then we'll talk.

...so I take what you say and spin it? Really? I am sorry you see it that way but you are wrong. I have been logical and coherent in my rebuttals, in fact I have have even stopped pushing certain points and flat out agreeing with you for the sake of moving the argument along and still you haven't brought anything forward. Please read up on my "great I agree with you' faux-concessions...

And I will keep coming to who can touch Wally until someone gives me something other that "RKT is durr beyond skyfather so he wins derrp derrp" answer. Also you are right, you don't have to be as fast as Wally to touch him, you need to be faster! In a comic Wally can move as slow as he wants but the OP has specified a bloodlusted Wally using his speed to its absolute max... that means in this very battle thread Wally will move at his best speed, attack with his best attacks and will not suffer from WIS/PIS/CIS (hence bloodlust) which occurs in comics for a story. The rules of bloodlust are shown in the beginning of the Battle Forum Rules.

As for Wally beating someone on their level, I don't think you will find that in a comic (I am sure there are some but I am not an expert on Wally) but that doesn't mean he cannot beat them anyway (especially if they susceptible to Wally's powerset). This is what you need to understand, a comic will suffer from various problems to create a story but that doesn't mean what happens in a story is logical. Characters win/lose to characters that they should logically lose to/win. Comic =/= Battle Forum Thread... but stretch out this logic tidbit of yours: RKT has no feats defeating a being like ZHP will you now agree he loses? Will you argue that way? Or the reverse... RKT has no feats of defeating WBH, that must mean hulk smash? Dis/Agree?

As for ZHP... I did ask you to read what @willpayton has given.... ZHP's feats are far beyond all of Marvel combined. So yes, he is beyond skyfather level even if it is RKT. The feats of ZHP and the subsequent logic ensure that he can solo the Marvel team. Unfortunately this might not sit well with some who support Marvel but logic is logic. Insanity or otherwise...

The last part... bias mate.

good day

... there is so much wrong with this mate... Thor can ONLY guide the future which means Thor CANNOT make the future. As long as he cannot make the future then your scenario is imperfect to say the least. In fact it just becomes prediction at best. Thor can find the 1 scenario in a billion to win doesn't mean the 1 will still occur... that scenario might depend on say Fernus not mindraping anyone, in the actual battle Fernus does mindrape. Because they are all possible scenarios, prep for a singular scenario is plain stupid when all billion+1 can occur. If Thor COULD make the future it would be a different animal to slay, then your subsequent rebuttal would be possible.

BTW if Thor can see the future, an explicit future, then logically he cannot guide the future i.e defer the future from the present course nor shape or influence it in any way.

good day

...you are right mate... I mean it's not like Wally cannot speed steal amirite? It's the freakin' DA, used to fight Celestials, SF be damned.

But you are right... it's RKT! He wins just because he is stronger than Odin mate. ODIN!!! RKT, again RKT!!!....aaaaaaaargh

sorry to have some fun at your expense, do forgive.

good day

Correct.

Rune King Thor solos

Scarlet Solos

@theonetaichou

... there is so much wrong with this mate... Thor can ONLY guide the future which means Thor CANNOT make the future. As long as he cannot make the future then your scenario is imperfect to say the least. In fact it just becomes prediction at best. Thor can find the 1 scenario in a billion to win doesn't mean the 1 will still occur... that scenario might depend on say Fernus not mindraping anyone, in the actual battle Fernus does mindrape. Because they are all possible scenarios, prep for a singular scenario is plain stupid when all billion+1 can occur. If Thor COULD make the future it would be a different animal to slay, then your subsequent rebuttal would be possible.

BTW if Thor can see the future, an explicit future, then logically he cannot guide the future i.e defer the future from the present course nor shape or influence it in any way.

good day

How can all billion+ occur? I don't think you really understand what I'm talking about here... What I am saying is this; now you see the future and the opponent you'll face, you see you have the following options.

1. Shoot him in the head
2. Strangle him to death
3. Poison his cola
4. Cut his car brakes and have him go down a cliff
5. Don't kill him at all

Now if you choose 5, how will the rest, or how can the rest also occur? That just doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps not the greatest example but I'm sure you'll get the point. If he sees a billion and 1 different versions of the fight unfolding and he goes out and preps for the ONE time in which he saw they could win, how could the others possibly occur as well? The others are then "What if's". They are events that COULD have happened but DIDN'T happen. There is a huge difference...

How could Thor not make the future? Did he not receive the same insight that his father before him received? Even if we argue that Thor(Rune Lord) at best is only equal to Odin when it comes to the knowledge received through the wisdom, Thor should be capable enough to see things in the future as they happen and even implement plans to prevent certain things from happening.

Odin did it numerous times:

1. The Dark gods event, after their long and hard fought victory over the dark gods Odin already knew they'd return and he already implemented a plan for such an event. He even wiped the memories of everyone on Asgard in regards to the original event and he even wiped his own memory!!! He gave Hescamer one of his ravens enough power to overcome Hela in her own realm after it turned in Marnot when the time came. Now the main question should be, why? Did Odin see that Thor was going to die and planned it so that Marnot can retrieve Thor from Hel? Did Odin plan for Thor to die at the hands of the Destroyer precisely because an innocent(Jake Olsen) HAD to die in order for Thor to take up the burden of living the life of Jake Olsen precisely because the dark gods won't be able to see Thor in that disguise? Why not take it even further...Was the destroyer armor found by accident or did Odin intend for it to be found at just the right time in just the right place, bringing that destroyer to the shores unleashed a series of events that unfolded exactly the way it should have unfolded to ensure a victory for Thor against the dark gods. With hindsight to the event it is even plain to see why Odin wiped his own memory to prevent Majeston Zelia from obtaining the relevant details to Thor's where about. That entire event was nothing more than one huge plot devised by Odin to ensure the victory in the next battle.
2. The run where Thor took on Thanos and Mangog, the oracle already showed the final outcome of the event. Odin still managed to change that outcome. It doesn't matter at what moment he did it or didn't do it.
3. Odin already saw the future of King Thor, as such he already saw his death at the hands of Surtur. He did nothing to stop at all, perhaps because he already foresaw his inevitable resurrection at a later time. Or perhaps it was because it would have been a valuable lesson for Thor to learn along his journey. Odin has always put out trials for Thor, training him to the leader Asgard needs.
4. Rune Thor run, Odin again showed foresight into having Thor born outside the influence of Those Who Sit Above In Shadow.

Odin has seen and changed the future on many occasions, why would Thor NOT be capable of the same given the fact that he received the same knowledge of the Runes as His Father before him did?

I would think that Thor actually foresaw his return to earth as well, hence why he at just enough Odin Force left to rebuild Asgard and get his people. Why recreate Mjolnir when at the point when he did it he was already ABOVE anything Mjolnir can do for him? Did the Donald find the Hammer or was the Hammer sent to Donald?

Even then, with all of the above said, I still think Thor is capable of seeing, guiding AND changing the future. Such an opponent is then not to be taken lightly.

I feel like Aquaman and Hulk are non-factors here, so the non-factors can fight each other. For the rest of the characters, I see these battles:

Fernus vs Scarlet Witch

Alan Scott vs Dr. Strange

Wally West vs Silver Surfer

Superman vs Void

Parallax vs RKT

I'm sorry that I don't really have an explanation for these battles, but the way I see it, Aquaman dehydrates him and kills him. Wally West would probably Steal all of Surfer's Speed while Surfer destroys him by vaporizing him, unless Flash steals all of their speed, in which case, Marvel loses. But in the case of my original idea, Flash would die, but SS would be left frozen. I think Fernus could destroy Wanda's mind while she simultaneously destroys him, which would leave both of them out. Superman I think would get destroyed by Void, unless he did something similar to how Thor killed him, such as an intense blast of something like lightning, or in this case, heat vision. I think that Alan Scott w/ Starheart would win against Strange, but that's just me. For Parallax and RKT, I think it would end in a victory for Parallax. So that leaves:

WWH (dead)

Aquaman

Dr. Strange (dead)

Alan Scott

Flash (dead)

SS (incapacitated)

Supes (dead)

Void

Fernus (dead)

Scarlet Witch (incapacitated)

Parallax

RKT (defeated)

So that leaves Aquaman, Parallax, and Alan Scott vs Void. In this case, DC wins.

But yeah, this isn't the most powerful team of Justice League

@bigcimmerian Since when was Alan Scott part of the JLA, and Silver Surfer part of the Avengers? I might be wrong, but I don't recall them being part of those respective teams.

It's gotten to the point that I can already tell who's going to back which side just by looking at their username. Haha.

Damnnn man lol I gotta say Marvel in this one. Mainly because of Rune King Thor, World War Hulk, Silver Surfer (especially), and Scarlett Witch.

You said RKT with the power of the Runes can guide the future... he doesn't create the future. So if RKT looks at billion+1 scenario or actually what they are = possible futures, he can choose to influence the future to create the possibility of the 1 future to occur but that future is still fluid and he cannot ensure the billion will not occur. That is what I am speaking to. If RKT could create a future, not merely guide, that would be sacrosanct rather than possible.

so let's us take a look in your example

...firstly you see a future, and say in that future the opponent will kill you: you decide to do 1/2. He dies and you live... do you see the future you saw hasn't occurred? You are alive and he is dead ergo you only saw a possible future. Say you choose 3 or 4; he lives and kills you anyway exactly as you saw. So what has your actions done to the future? They have not changed it at all, you still die exactly as you saw. Say you choose 5 and he kills you anyway, future stayed the same. But say you don't and when he comes you accept your fate that you die and this surprises him and he spares you... another possible future has occurred. What I am saying just because you choose a possible future, as long as you cannot create THAT EXACT future you chose, does not mean your chosen future will occur. Same with RKT, if he could CREATE the future then it would be a different story, but as long as he can only influence and guide he cannot guarantee his chosen future anymore than any other possible future.

To take it to this battle thread... he has a billion+1 possible futures, with a billion saying he dies and 1 saying he wins. How could he guarantee that 1 future vs the billion? But it gets better, and this is where I stand you might get lost, if RKT can only guide the future that means he does not create the future which means everytime he looks into the future he is in fact changing the future. The very act of him seeing the 1 future where he wins and therefore preps for it means even that future is changed. Say the 1 future was achieved because RKT didn't look into the future, now he has and has seen this possible future, how then does he make it so? By looking he sees the win but the win comes by him not looking! Even if he guides the future each action changes that future; say he preps to put a rock at point X to trip Flash, Flash runs there and trips, but now the trip causes Superman to hear Flash trip and this causes Superman to stall an attack that he should have done to create RKT's 1 win scenario. Flash does trip, but Superman doesn't attack. So how does RKT make Superman attack at that exact moment in time, in the unchanged scenario Flash would not have tripped and Superman would not have paused his attack? And every change then changes the future, and so on and so on... hence guidance of the future is no guarantee of that future occurring.

But let's go the other side... say RKT sees any of the billion scenarios where he looses; can he change their outcome? He sees he will lose, what can he do? No matter what he does he still loses... he can still guide the future. Then what of guiding the future if the future occurs anyway regardless of guidance? Then what of this guidance power of Thor? He is stuck, pre-determinism runs deep in this one.

In conclusion as long as RKT cannot create the future, his guidance is no guarantee of a win, especially since a he has a 1 to a billion chance of winning, and he cannot even guarantee the odds won't increase against him by his guidance.

I now leave you with this....

... exactly friend, how can RKT make a future. He cannot, he can only guide. Big difference...

See this is why I say, mate, you didn't get my original rebuttal. If Thor sees certain things in the future (he loses a game of chess for example) and takes steps to prevent them then Thor should see the future where his steps have taken (where he has won the game of chess). But he now doesn't see the first future which drives him to prep and therefore he doesn't and then he loses. But then he does see the loosing future and takes steps to prevent it, he then sees the winning future and he doesn't take any steps and therefore he looses... and on and on.

But lets's make it linear, if the future is fluid i.e Thor can change it then even Thor's intended future is fluid i.e. can change. This means he cannot make his wanted future to occur, even with his steps he cannot guarantee it. If the future is fixed, then RKT cannot change anything, he suffers from pre-determination and his 'guidance' is useless.

As for your examples, they work in a comic where I suppose this level of thought is not considered. Unfortunately I am arguing for DC, and in this debate I don't see why quarter should be given for comic events.

good day

DC wins ZH lax is the strongest here this can be a good battle but there's not enough weight on the marvel team to deal with the guy.

@moonman78: They have scarlet Witch whose power was tearing apart the omniverse vs ZH parallax destroying universes 1 at a time.

Scarlet Witch was only affecting earth on M day its been said more than a few times. No cosmics or anybody above was really affected, the highest person being maybe Dr Strange.

This thread still lives

those last three could do it themselves Silver Surfer can Heal himself and his team check it out

Gallery

i mean he healed the watcher. so i mean

Her warp was global, she only wanted to remake the earth, but what essentially happened was the energy went on to rip outside the boundary of 616 reality and went on to affect entire universes beyond ours.

We see Chaos Wave hit Otherworld, a nexus of all reality that lies outside 616 in Uncanny X-men # 465 but lets go thru one at a time and hopefully i can get you to agree with me.

===================================

Prelude

Then we have Meggan who wakes up realizing something is wrong.

"It is the end my love. Of all that that is! Of all that will ever be"

===================================

Now we finally see Chaos Wave hit Otherworld which isnt even in 616 reality but rather outside it and serves as a nexus to all realities.

===================================

We then actually see various realities erased on panel.

"Time and Space, our every perception of reality ... is defined.. governed... by what we call natural laws. They provide the foundation and structure of our very existence. Now imagine them totally stripped away. No more boundaries ... what quantum physics love to call branes ... better the dimensions. More coherence to casuality. Only a primal chaos, beyond the comprehension of any sentience"

There we can see the wave actually affecting various reality.

Third panel we see a reality where Thor is a fish and Namor a member of the Fantastic Four.

Fourth panel we see a reality where Spiderman is a woman.

Last panel we see Iron Man as a dinosaurs and Thing as a member of the X-men.

Thats at the very least 3 different universes outside out 616

===================================

We further see more ramification as Roma's tower falls

"With an inconceivable variety and number of species, as all the dimensions suddenly together crash into one"

We also see Mad James Jasper brought back to life, thats at least 1 person beyond Dr. Strange in terms of cosmic powers.

===================================

Much later in the issue Roma actually explains about the Chaos Wave

This page directly addresses the question you asked.

"We are witnessing a trans-temporal tsunami , originating from Earth 616, apparently there has been an alternation of global proportion that has breached the walls of causality"

So Scarlet Witch "global alteration" actually went beyond 616 reality.

"Until the breach itself is sealed, this chaos wave will keep expanding along the sidereal strings.. to the farthest reaches of imagination, from the sundered planes to the sublimity - perhaps even to the ascension itself. "

"Left unchecked all creation would merge into a single formless amorphous conceptual blob"

So if the breached was not stopped entire omniverse was going to be merged into a single formless blob.

===================================

Recap page of Uncanny X-men # 463 pretty clearly collaborates all i have said:

Things to note:

"shattering the walls between dimensions as it spreads to the farthese reaches of CrossTime."

So Chaos Wave went beyond 616 reality.

"Unless the Chaos-Wave is stopped, all reality will devolve into nothingness"

If not stopped the omniverse is going to be destroyed

"Brian has forty-eight hours to complete his mission. Otherwise, Roma will have no choice but to use the Celestial Nullifier to erase not just Earth 616 but its entire universe from existence"

So it cant be a global power, if Roma is willing to destroy entire universe to prevent the problem now can it?

===================================

Die by the Sword # 1 a issue that deals with resurrected Mad James Jasper further explains what happened with the Chaos Wave

"Not so long ago the omniverse was swept away by a temporal wave of unimaginable powers , that lietrally tore the continuum to bits and re-arranged it"

===================================

So while the intention was only to affect Earth, its hard to deny the side effect went way beyond the planet, in fact beyond universe to actually affect the entire omniverse.

That was also not even the full extent of her power because she never wanted to cause the damage in the first place, she was just trying to built Quicksilver version of a perfect world.

The showing of power in House of M, is better than what Parallax did during Zero Hour.

This fight comes down to Alan Scott, Parallax Hal, and Aquaman vs RKT, Wanda, and Strange.

I'm leaning towards DC team, mostly because of Hal. Wanda isn't as big of a threat, as I simply disagree that her display in House of M is anywhere near Hal's level. Hal destroyed and remade a universe effortlessly; Wanda altered a universe but never had the power to destroy it or create a new one. Creation/destruction trumps modification.

RKT, IMO, is overrated - he has zero feats. I take a universe buster over him any day.

Strange is the question mark here...he is ridiculously powerful in his classic form and might be able to solo, but I think Aquaman w/ the Water Hand and Alan Scott together might be able to at least match / contain some of his power.

DC 5.1/10

This thread Is funny! So hostile!

I am really surprised people see Classic Strange as a bigger threat than HOM Wanda, which just isnt true.

And Wanda didnt just modify 616, her feat is way bigger than that, despite having posted so scans right here, people still disagree, strange...

No one that I see disagrees that what she did was incredibly powerful, and I certainly don't disagree that it affected the Marvel multiverse. My point was destroying/creating a universe is a more impressive feat than altering one (or many). Classic Strange, while not having a grand single feat quite on par w/ House of M, was able to go toe-to-toe w/ Shuma Gorath and Dormamu on the reg (who both had the power to remake or destroy reality) and hold his own. I still think DC takes this, simply because ZHP is the most powerful character here feat-wise, but Strange and Wanda make it interesting

The feat was actually omniversal, and i honestly think you are under-selling Wanda here.

She wanted to change Earth, in 1 reality, but her power was so potent it went beyond 616, affected multiple universe, evolved them into nothing but blob of chaos (thats pretty much close to destruction), and was going to continue so on had Meggan not stopped it by closing the breach.

The fact that Meggan had to tap into the power of otherworld (nexus of energy of marvel multiverse, just to give an indication of how potent it is, Surtur was actually going to burn the whole multiverse with energy of otherworld alone, a guy whose power at best is universal, and in all likelihood even below) + energies from Beyond (Beyonder verse). With all the godly amped she actually died there just trying to stop it.

I still dont understand why thats a case.

And realities, not one but many were destroyed , how else will you interpret a white light sweeping many reality, and the comment being the reality was reduced to formless blob of chaos?

BTW Zero Hour Parallax didnt destroy universe because of his own power, but he let lose the energy of the entrophy which destroyed the universe for him, it was never his power

Shuma or Dormammu could remake or destroy reality? The best feat from Dormammu has is what, fighting Eternity and getting stomped, i have seen absolutely nothing to suggest Dormammu could destroy a universe and i have read every appearence of Dormammu.

Shuma Gorath vs Dr . Strange in his own realm, was going to destroy all of netherworld (various pocket universes, some of which are so small Dr. Strange himself has destroyed one). Shuma has neither destroyed a universe nor shown the ability to destroy one. At least Shuma does have some hyperbole surrouding it and Dr. Strange hasnt ever, defeated Shuma without plot like : destroying Ancient One's Ego to break Shuma connection to 616, absoring energies from being in 999 different dimensions before confronting Shuma in his realm (it doesnt get any more amped than that), or defeating Shuma by taking him into Stone Henge.

Plot allowed, Invaders defeated Shuma with a plot just as well (spear of destiny)

Thats not including how MJJ has both better hyperbole and feats than both of them, one person who was affected by Wanda.

Also since you mentioned Dormammu, here is a scan you might find helpful

First Dr. Strange and Prof X travelling thru to stop Wanda suddenly finds Dormammu before them

Strange comments how only Scarlet Witch power could have brought him here, remember Dormammu promised Strange to never come to Earth.

Turns out Wanda was asleep all the while, yet she was able to forcefully grab Dormammu into Earth

I fundamentally disagree on Zero Hour Parallax vs Wanda here, because one wanted to recreated Cost City, went on to manipulate Entrophy to erase universe, but was somehow going to re-start his own perfect universe vs a lady who was trying to change earth, and her power was so potent that it went outside 616 (all the while Wanda is just on Earth), started devolving entire universes into nothing but chaos, re-arranging entire omniverse and had she not been stopped entire omniverse as going to fall into Chaos, and thats not even willingly trying to affect them.

So remaking 1 universe vs affecting whole omniverse which has many multiverses, and each multiverse has infinite universes, i dont see how Parallax feat are more grand, but we can agree to diagree.

Classic Strange is as close to being a non factor, but people are always going to look at his best feat, not including context. Strange was never meant to be anywhere close to this level.

House of M Scarlet Witch solos. Yes, even the Phantom Stranger.

RKT could solo them all apart from parralax, and with strange prep they stomp Dc team.

Marvel team has the more powerful characters, except one. DC team win due to having parallax, which is universal level. Without him Marvel would surely win.

Marvel.

Avengers Ftw