The Spectre vs Beyonder vs Michael Demiurgos vs Lucifer Morningstar

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Britain

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#1  Edited By Britain

Death Battle.

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Put them in ascending order ?

The Spectre (Aztar) vs The Beyonder vs Michael Demiurgos vs Lucifer Morningstar who would win and why ? comics

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Y3kthunder

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#2  Edited By Y3kthunder

This is interesting one things for sure though spectre gets bodied hard

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Shade545

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Probably Beyonder.

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Y3kthunder

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@shade545: interesting I'll debate you why do you believe beyonder the victor?

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Shade545

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@y3kthunder: Lucifer has to exert more effort to perform multiversal feats it seems.

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Shade545

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@y3kthunder: Also wasn't it stated that it took both Lucifer and Micheal's powers to create the multiverse?

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Y3kthunder

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@shade545: can I ask for you to give a example like for instance lucifer destroyed the mansions of silence that housed countless failed creations an universes an he did that just by being there. An what of Michael why does beyonder win against him?

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Y3kthunder

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@shade545: in careys run yes lucifer wasn't capable of shaping the void so he needed Michaels power to spark things up for him but in some instances he has shown to be able to manipulate the void like his new series suggests that he shaped the multiverse from the void

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Stomps

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Either luci or mickey

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Shade545

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@shade545: can I ask for you to give a example like for instance lucifer destroyed the mansions of silence that housed countless failed creations an universes an he did that just by being there. An what of Michael why does beyonder win against him?

Beyonder can destroy Multi-verses just by being angry

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This should be more impressive than destroying the mansions of silence IMO but you didn't specify how Lucifer destroyed them or how much effort he had to exert in order to do so. And as for Micheal it's roughly the same thing especially if it took them both to create the Multiverse.

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Y3kthunder

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#11  Edited By Y3kthunder

@shade545: oh very nice. But yea I did lucifer destroyed the mansions of silence with literally zero effort his presence is what blew it up you may look at it to different ways lucifer either destroyed countless universes with his presence or countless universes an multiverses as a high ball as creations are usually synonymous with multiverse.

Next id like to dream of the endless very powerful being was capable of reshaping the multiverse though it used most his power. Was able to create a copy of the multiverse. An a man who had taken hold of one of his dreamstones was able to make 6 billion realities each filled with universes. An he destroyed all except 2 or 3 an dream is far less powerful then either Lucy or Mikey both whom are capable of destroying an recreating the multiverse with ease.

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Shade545

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@y3kthunder: That's cool. Either ways it will be a close match.

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Y3kthunder

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@shade545: it would be an awesome match agreed which is why I wished to debate you a little on it

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cosmic_reign

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Beyonder

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Y3kthunder

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@cosmic_reign: maybe you'll debate me on it why is beyonder above anyone here

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byondeon

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Beyonder is the most powerful. However I don't really see him winning as I think that Lucifer could manipulate him into either giving up his powers or make Beyonder kill himself or something. Beyonder would kill anyone if he attacked them with a full power attack however.

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GodGate

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Isn't the Spectre like immortal by the word of DC Comics God? If so, he wins here.

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Y3kthunder

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@godgate: uh no even at his most powerful he has be repeatedly slapped by Michael

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GodGate

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SleepyGypsy

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The Spectre cannot be defeated truly by Lucifer or Michael. He can be beaten and subdued, overpowered surely, but his essence cannot be destroyed until The Presence perishes first. This was confirmed in Final Crisis: Revelations.

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@godgate said:

Isn't the Spectre like immortal by the word of DC Comics God? If so, he wins here.

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GodGate

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cosmic_reign

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@cosmic_reign: maybe you'll debate me on it why is beyonder above anyone here

Pretty much for reasons already presented! But I'm open for debate...

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Y3kthunder

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@cosmic_reign: alright so I believe the best reason presented so far is from my guy shade man posted beyonder causing multiversal damage with his anger hot dorg that is impressive. But I believe can be easily countered by the fact that lucifer was able to destroy countless rejected universes so how would that one feat of beyonder put him above either brother? Btw spectre is none factor here so I'm not gonna focus on him

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SleepyGypsy

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#24  Edited By SleepyGypsy

The Spectre can be beaten and overpowered. There is nothing The Angel's can do to affect his existence. They can defeat The Spectre in combat though. This is a point of authority and not a point of power. The Spectre has more authority. The Angel brothers have more power.

@godgate said:

@sleepygypsy: Ah then, I change my mind. Spectre stomps.

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jrupert1

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@godgate: In no way can Spectre stomp, or even beat anyone here. As for not being able to be killed, in Spectre vol 3 #10 Michael said he wouldn't outright destroy Spectre because he still had a purpose, the vindication that he could but wont was a lesson for Spectre's overreaching.

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GodGate

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@jrupert1: Don't know much about the God tiers, but if one was given immortality by the top dog of their verse, then it reasons to say that they can only be killed by the the one who bestowed the immortality on them.

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Y3kthunder

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@godgate: why though they same can be said for both lucifer an Michael one is gods literal power the other is his will. Michael has already beaten unbound spectre. spectre without a host. An lucifer was hinted to be geb an has destroyed the logoz which hold the word of God. So both brothers have proven to be above aspects of the same dude.

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cupofreality

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The Beyonder negs them.

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jrupert1

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#29  Edited By jrupert1

@godgate: Under most circumstances and against most beings that'd be right. Although there's actually enough vagueness about being unkillable to pick at, but that would be its whole other thing. Regardless it conflicts with Michael's statement on the matter.

As mentioned above by Y3kthunder, Michael and Lucifer themselves are the literal aspects of God's power and will. Michael for instance controls infinite power to create and destroy. Special divinity bestowed on Spectre and the like is nothing special to the likes of them. And often they have shown to be exceptions. Such as when creation could no longer be sustained as it's depends on God (and believed to be something only he could do), Michael renewed it with his power, continuously rewriting it all under his will.

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GodGate

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#30  Edited By GodGate

@jrupert1: You'd need both sides of the presence's power to even effect Spectre though. The best the brothers can do alone is half-kill him and even together, they may not have enough authority to actually kill him since doing such a thing would go against both of their existence's as parts of God's will and power.

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cosmic_reign

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#31  Edited By cosmic_reign

@y3kthunder said:

@cosmic_reign: alright so I believe the best reason presented so far is from my guy shade man posted beyonder causing multiversal damage with his anger hot dorg that is impressive. But I believe can be easily countered by the fact that lucifer was able to destroy countless rejected universes so how would that one feat of beyonder put him above either brother? Btw spectre is none factor here so I'm not gonna focus on him

Yes... and there's plenty more where that can from like:

-Beyonders mere presence causing suns to implode and adjacent dimensions(universes) to collapse.

-Stated to be 1M times more powerful than the Multiverse combined.

-Using some of his power to erase the prime multiversal concept of Death and still claiming to be more powerful than all else combined.

Etc...

You also mentioned in an earlier post that Lucifer didn't have the power and needed Michael's help to spark something for Lucy to shape/warp -->A feat that Beyonder should be able to perform on a whim...

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jrupert1

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#32  Edited By jrupert1

@godgate said:

You'd need both sides of the presence's power to even effect Spectre though. The best the brothers can do alone is half-kill him and even together, they may not have enough authority to actually kill him since doing such a thing would go against both of their existence's as parts of God's will and power.

I don't know where you got that from. Had he done so it would go against God's plans, which would be out of line for Michael, that's all. Or else he would have implied he couldn't destroy Spectre. Like when Spectre couldn't destroy Phantom Stranger. When the energy contained inside of Michael is released everything else is destroyed (save for Lucifer). As previously stated, they have proven able to destroy other aspects of God, such as the Logoz. For Spectre to survive it would require active involvement from The Presence, not just by being the Spectre as representing something isn't everything on its own. Which is unlikely and not a factor here anyway.

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Y3kthunder

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@cosmic_reign: alright alright we getting somewhere.

To counter your first one again this feat seems like its comparable to the mansions of silence which is something ive mentioned. For Michael he is easily capable of destroying the multiverse if his body breaks honestly could probably do it without that happening as well.

Very nice statement but is it really better than lucifer who states space time an infinity are meaningless to him same would apply to Michael who scales to Lucy.

Also very nice destroying death is quite impressive however this is something lucifer has claimed to be capable of an death herself admitted he could do it. He also told her she had no claim on him an she agreed saying i never said I did. Lucifer was also more powerful than Destiny who is more powerful than death.

An yes in lucifers original series lucifer needed Michael power to spark something to manipulate he couldn't manipulate the nothing however in the books of magic its said that he can. That he created hell from the void. An in his newest series its hinted that he indeed did shaped the multiverse from the void he also did show void resistance an the ability the manipulate a piece of a void

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jrupert1

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#34  Edited By jrupert1

@y3kthunder: Plus Elaine made her own creation on accident after inheriting her fathers power. The original creation rules always came off as a stipulation set by the Presence for them to do it together as its what he wanted.

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Y3kthunder

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@jrupert1: yes she dis lucifer did not help her at all an that very well maybe he dis say he made them do it to teach them

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cosmic_reign

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#36  Edited By cosmic_reign

@y3kthunder:

Okay...

Not familiar with mansions of silence, so I'll take your good word :)

Beyonders exist beyond the entire abstract of space/time(Infinity/Eternity), and sees the Multiverse as a grain of sand.

I know that Death can't claim Lucifer, but can Lucy erase Death?

Still tho, from what I understand, Lucifer and Michael need to combine their powers and efforts to shape or create in the Void... Here are some indivdual Celestials chillin in the Void pitching out Big Bangs(Infinities/Eternities) like knuckle balls, erasing and pushing the Void back:

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And Beyonders were stated to be potential predators to Celestials.

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Debonairian

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#37  Edited By Debonairian

Spectre dies first. I don't understand why DC has to make the guy so cool but such a limited jobber at the same time.

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SleepyGypsy

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Which part of The Spectre cannot die unless The Presence dies first was confusing?

Spectre dies first. I don't understand why DC has to make the guy so cool but such a limited jobber at the same time.

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Debonairian

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@sleepygypsy: Mb, I'll fix it then. The Spectre loses first.

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SleepyGypsy

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+1 Respect for this. Too few have the ability to do what you've shown me here.

@sleepygypsy: Mb, I'll fix it then. The Spectre loses first.

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Y3kthunder

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@cosmic_reign: oh thank you I appreciate the compliment. The mansions of silence was a place beyond the silver city. It held countless mirriors that held rejected creations an universes lucifer destroyed the place just by being there.

Nice so both are beyond space time which of course Michael would be as well. An I dunno about him viewing the multiverse as a grain of sand I suppose if he flew far enough into the void he could. He did absorbed its 20 billion years history in a blink though.

Good question I'm going to go with yes when death got on his nerves he told her that he planned surviving his ordiel an she should take her words into account. She replied well if you kill the messenger aka her he would get less mail. Also he is stronger than Destiny the strongest of the bunch so yea he should be able to he is also capable of creating life an giving death to those that the concept doesn't exist. Or simply prevent bwings from it.

Again that depends on story but the most common was he did need Michael also in that image it said the celestials were in space at the bottom im talking about a place with no space. Also dream is capable of reshaping the multiverse an made a copy of it outside. Someone with a dreamstone made 6 billion realities each with universes an destroyed all but 2 or 3. Someone with a shadow copy of notes from destinies book was a threat to infinite universes. Death will claim the multiverse. Destruction can destroy it to an of course all are beneath lucifer nevertheless his brother. Also should note the multiverse is massive you have your regular infinite branching multiverse that holds the heroes etc. Then you have heaven an for each person in heaven there is a separate universe for that person hell reflects heaven. For every person that dreams there is a seperate universe for them in the dreaming. An if the dreaming goes bye bye so does the multiverse. So as you can see theyre plenty of multiversal structures in dc to that both brothers are a major threat to if they wished

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cosmic_reign

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@y3kthunder:

You got it...

That's all impressive!

I just think there's a power gap between the ability to CREATE on this scale vs the ability to Re-create/Reshape.

Featwise/Storywise, many of Beyonder(s) appearances involve events that pretty much have effects on the entire Marvel label!

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SleepyGypsy

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@cosmic_reign: Y3kthunder opts to not provide you with even one scan for a reason. The reason is because he isn't providing you with a facts. Here are the facts about the Mansions of Silence, which take part in Lucifer: 36-41.

The location in between Heaven and Hell.

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This isn't even close to what Y3kThunder has told you.

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Zim'et can travel to this location freely ahead of Lucifer and Michael, who joins their journey. This place isn't special, just not well known.

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The Mansions cannot sustain him just being there, but The Silver City can and has many times. It is where Lucifer is from to begin with and all the Pax Dei and Michael live in the Silver City. When Y3kThunder tells you this place is beyond The Silver City, this isn't an accurate statement.

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It is directly said to be hidden in lower realms. Y3kThunder is not being accurate to this comic and is providing you with misinformation.

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The thoughts of Yahwe are just hidden around in this place.

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Yahwe directly states The Silver City predates the Angels, Pax Dei, Heaven and both Lucifer and Michael

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His "good word" isn't so good. In fact, it is a terribly inaccurate word.

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cosmic_reign

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TheVoidofDeath

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@cosmic_reign: @sleepygypsy:

Ah, don't become upset with me, you're my friend but I shall counter with Beyonder. Beyonder and Lucifer are above the Creation tier. Beyonder sees an Infinite Dimensionally Layered Multiverse as a speck water droplet like Beyonder was a vast ocean. He's above conceptual entities who represent the concepts of time, space, duality, chaos, order, etc. all the Marvel Abstracts included, he's above Creation as it can get.

That's no different from what Lucifer is, who is above the concepts of time, space, destruction, dreams, etc. who are the Endless.

Both Lucifer and Beyonder are multitudes greater than Infinite Dimensional Multiverses and high-level Multiversal beings. They both roughly equal.

You can think that Beyonder can beat Lucifer or vice versa, but to imply there is an astronomical power difference between them is one that is off. A problem that both Marvel and DC fans tend to forget. They like to lowball each other's abstracts to EXTREME ridiculous levels, it's not necessary. Not everything needs to be lowballed.

The entire story of Beyonder is him contemplating whether or not to destroy the Multiverse and everyone is trying to either appease him or mess around with him. He doesn't need to do anything to prove it, his existence and status alone is enough. The context of the story narrative proves that he is above Creation.

And when we discuss Pre Retcon Beyonder, the Ivory Kings are a non-factor. At the time, the Ivory Kings and the Beyonders never even really existed yet. There was only ONE Beyonder. When we speak of Pre Retcon, all the Beyond rs and Ivory Kings are left out of any speculation whatsoever because their Multiversal feats are inferior to SW Beyonder. Yes, the Ivory Kings are retcon back inspirations to Pre Retcon Beyonder, but they are merely inspirations. Beyonder displayed far superior implicated power than the Ivory Kings did. Even when weakened, all the Abstracts were still no match for him and didn't matter.

Well, Beyonder was the writer avatars, according to Shooter. ....

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Y3kthunder

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#46  Edited By Y3kthunder

@sleepygypsy: no the mansions were stated to be beyond heaven far beyond either childrens an monsters 2 I believe states this.

Nestly I said it contained countless mirriors each holding rejected universes an creations. I didn't say it was some super special place. That it was beyond heaven an they traveled there by boat.

I never said the silver city couldnt hold him an no he predates it lucifer an Michael where the first thing YWH made.

An that place that had the run off from YWH mind isn't apart of the mansions.

An no YWH didn't say they were created after thee city your trying horribly to missinform people

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SleepyGypsy

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@cosmic_reign: @sleepygypsy:

Ah, don't become upset with me, you're my friend but I shall counter with Beyonder. Beyonder and Lucifer are above the Creation tier. Beyonder sees an Infinite Dimensionally Layered Multiverse as a speck water droplet like Beyonder was a vast ocean. He's above conceptual entities who represent the concepts of time, space, duality, chaos, order, etc. all the Marvel Abstracts included, he's above Creation as it can get.

The Beyond realm is part of Creation. It is merely dimensionless and does not reside outside of Marvel's Creation though. It is another infinite place inside of it. Owen filled the entire Beyond realm with a new creation of his own and did so without any effort, as he said.

That's no different from what Lucifer is, who is above the concepts of time, space, destruction, dreams, etc. who are the Endless.

I am not so sure I agree, one of them is an interdimensional alien and the other is the embodiment of the willpower of the Creator. The Beyonder has nothing to do with TOAA in Marvel. He is just an infinite basket pocket dimension that was sentient. I've argued in the past they both share the exact same amount of control over Creationism. Total molecular ownership. If they had a test of power between themselves, they would stalemate each other in raw output. But the Beyonder has no divinity and did not make those particles, he came after Creation and is a part of it in Marvel. Lucifer is not.

Both Lucifer and Beyonder are multitudes greater than Infinite Dimensional Multiverses and high-level Multiversal beings. They both roughly equal.

In my opinion, they have the same exact power rating in terms of who can warp the most reality.

You can think that Beyonder can beat Lucifer or vice versa, but to imply there is an astronomical power difference between them is one that is off. A problem that both Marvel and DC fans tend to forget. They like to lowball each other's abstracts to EXTREME ridiculous levels, it's not necessary. Not everything needs to be lowballed.

This has to do with authority and not power. The Beyonder has no authority to dictate realms that exist beyond the Marvel Creation. Lucifer does. The Mansion of Silence, many other realms, simply blew apart from him standing in it. Places that lay outside of the Orrery and Creation of Yahwe are places The Beyonder cannot get to. He has no authority over places like that.

The entire story of Beyonder is him contemplating whether or not to destroy the Multiverse and everyone is trying to either appease him or mess around with him. He doesn't need to do anything to prove it, his existence and status alone is enough. The context of the story narrative proves that he is above Creation.

The Beyonder has the same power feats of Dream of the Endless, who did the same with a tiny fraction of his power. Just a few thousand minds was enough to grant Morpheus enough power to undo and re-create the entire Multiverse from nothing. What happens when Morpheus has the infinite Multiverse of DC already there to sift from? The Beyonder's millions of times more powerful than the Marvel verse, but Dream of the Endless recreated the infinite DC Multiverse with just a thousand minds of power. Lucifer is stronger than Dream in his own Dreaming and with infinite DC already present. This directly confirms Lucifer has much more power in authority over The Beyonder.

And when we discuss Pre Retcon Beyonder, the Ivory Kings are a non-factor. At the time, the Ivory Kings and the Beyonders never even really existed yet. There was only ONE Beyonder. When we speak of Pre Retcon, all the Beyond rs and Ivory Kings are left out of any speculation whatsoever because their Multiversal feats are inferior to SW Beyonder. Yes, the Ivory Kings are retcon back inspirations to Pre Retcon Beyonder, but they are merely inspirations. Beyonder displayed far superior implicated power than the Ivory Kings did. Even when weakened, all the Abstracts were still no match for him and didn't matter.

Well, Beyonder was the writer avatars, according to Shooter. ....

I think there is quite a difference between a character representing author intent and actually being the author. Monitors are actually the analog's of The DC authors. Its not supposed to be representative of anything, they are them and Mandrakk is the Editor so to speak according to CBR and the Facebook conversation they had about this, with DC confirming.

Shooter saying Beyonder reps the Author is not the same as Nix Uotan literally being the driving force and collective authors, editors and executives that made DC Comics. Grant was quite clear, Uotan made the fiction of DC. I don't think this is the same as what Monitors are.

In that regard, I consider The Beyonder on par with Lucifer in power. However, the divine aspect of Lucifer pre-dating Creation and having extra powers that The Beyonder does not have, is why I believe Lucifer wins that fight.

In regards to The Spectre, none of the above can kill him. The Spear of Destiny wasn't enough to truly kill him. The only way to defeat The Spectre fully is to wipe out The Presence first. But again, that doesn't mean the others cannot overpower him repeatedly.

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SleepyGypsy

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#48  Edited By SleepyGypsy

Michael flew straight up into the sky and flew to the Silver City in those scans, right after coming out of the Mansion. Y3kThunder, I am worried about you.

@sleepygypsy: no the mansions were stated to be beyond heaven far beyond either childrens an monsters 2 I believe states this.

Nestly I said it contained countless mirriors each holding rejected universes an creations. I didn't say it was some super special place. That it was beyond heaven an they traveled there by boat.

I never said the silver city couldnt hold him an no he predates it lucifer an Michael where the first thing YWH made.

An that place that had the run off from YWH mind isn't apart of the mansions.

An no YWH didn't say they were created after thee city your trying horribly to missinform people

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Y3kthunder

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https://i.imgur.com/oB7jQR5.jpg im not

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#50  Edited By SleepyGypsy
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Lucifer wasn't on the boat. He went to pick up Michael. They didn't go the Mansion, they were doing different things in different places on the boat.