The Skyfathers(Zeus and Odin) Vs. The Evil Lords(Mephisto and Nightmare)

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#1 Edited by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin and Zeus:

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Mephisto and Nightmare:

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The Rules:

  • Morals Off/Bloodlust.
  • Random Encounter.
  • No Outside Help.
  • Standard Power-Levels for the Skyfathers(So Odin isn't depowered like currently is), but this is Cates/Aaron's Mephisto and Nightmare has the same power as if was in his realm.
  • Fight to the Death or KO.
  • For the sake of this battle, they can't call upon an army of sleepers against Nightmare as Hypnos did.
  • Odin has the Odinsword and Gungnir, but not the Destroyer.
  • Nightmare has Dreamstalker.

LOCATION:

Somewhere in the multiverse of dimensions.
Somewhere in the multiverse of dimensions.

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#2 Posted by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by TakenStew22 (5828 posts) - - Show Bio

Skyfathers.

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#4 Posted by ProfessorRespect (8828 posts) - - Show Bio

Zeus kinda ruins the Skyfather team, to be honest. He just doesn't have the feats to imply him making a critical move here, and the fact he needed to cheat against a high tier brick doesn't exactly bode well. He was implied to be around Odin's level back in the day, but he really doesn't have the feats to suggest that.

Odin (and I mean Odin before he got depowered, got beaten up by Jane Thor, and was found to have not satisfied his wife in thousands of years, poor man) is a powerhouse, but he can't carry against these two. It's just not happening.

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#5 Posted by King-Ragnar (5163 posts) - - Show Bio

Besides implications and statements, Zeus doesn't really have anything going for him feat wise.

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#6 Posted by cosmic_reign (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

Skyfathers

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#7 Posted by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta said:

Zeus kinda ruins the Skyfather team, to be honest. He just doesn't have the feats to imply him making a critical move here, and the fact he needed to cheat against a high tier brick doesn't exactly bode well. He was implied to be around Odin's level back in the day, but he really doesn't have the feats to suggest that.

Odin (and I mean Odin before he got depowered, got beaten up by Jane Thor, and was found to have not satisfied his wife in thousands of years, poor man) is a powerhouse, but he can't carry against these two. It's just not happening.

I know that fact only came up because is nonetheless than Aaron writing him and it's pretty clear his dislike for the All-Father, but I chuckled really hard when Frigga said that in the middle of the War of Realms.

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#8 Posted by ProfessorRespect (8828 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta said:

Zeus kinda ruins the Skyfather team, to be honest. He just doesn't have the feats to imply him making a critical move here, and the fact he needed to cheat against a high tier brick doesn't exactly bode well. He was implied to be around Odin's level back in the day, but he really doesn't have the feats to suggest that.

Odin (and I mean Odin before he got depowered, got beaten up by Jane Thor, and was found to have not satisfied his wife in thousands of years, poor man) is a powerhouse, but he can't carry against these two. It's just not happening.

I know that fact only came up because is nonetheless than Aaron writing him and it's pretty clear his dislike for the All-Father, but I chuckled really hard when Frigga said that in the middle of the War of Realms.

I mean, it's funny if only for how out of the blue and random it was, lol

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#9 Edited by destinyman75 (15929 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin could well solo. He's one shot a hell Lord before, classic Odin >>>Hell Lords. Zues is just a distraction

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#10 Posted by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean, it's funny if only for how out of the blue and random it was, lol

Exactly, lol.

It's also kinda sad that the same man who once could "destroy planets with a wave of his hand" according to him, who fought many battles across the cosmos, who lead an entire empire, who was once considered one of the most powerful beings in the universe...Is apparently so damn sexually incompetent and inept in bed. :P

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#11 Edited by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75 said:

Odin could well solo. He's one shot a hell Lord before, classic Odin >>>Hell Lords. Zues is just a distraction

Mephisto these days is so much above Hela that's not even funny and quite frankly, so is and always has been Nightmare if not jobbing.

Besides, I also think most people here are forgetting that Mephisto(And Nightmare, too) has gotten much better statements and feats lately. I do agree Odin wouldn't have any problem before, but we now got new bits of info like how Aaron had Mephy as the creator of the Pre-Historic Ghost Rider in Avengers Vol.8#7, who's actually regarded as one of the most powerful of the 1,000,000 BC Avengers when a young Odin himself was also a member. Of course, Odin got more powerful later, but things like that make me believe this discussion isn't as black and white like was before.

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#12 Posted by BruceRogers (17798 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by destinyman75 (15929 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101: Hela like Odin and tbir before nefing has stalemated Mephsito and been shown as.equal or near equal to Mephsito though Classic Hela is a neast. Odin even while Weakend was >> Mephsito. Now today Ive heard Mephsito got better then heard that bwas debunked and not real or a feat other then a statement so I don't know lol

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#14 Posted by Redshift_Bacon (1361 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Odin can solo but Skyfathers can take some rounds

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#15 Posted by Supermanthor (22700 posts) - - Show Bio

hell lords

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#16 Edited by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75 said:

Hela like Odin and tbir before nefing has stalemated Mephsito and been shown as.equal or near equal to Mephsito though Classic Hela is a neast. Odin even while Weakend was >> Mephsito. Now today Ive heard Mephsito got better then heard that bwas debunked and not real or a feat other then a statement so I don't know lol

Okay, let's see if I understood your post right. For starters, Hela has never stalemated Mephisto...The closest thing of a "real fight" between them was during X-Factor#254 where Hela got straight up one-shooted from behind:

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But I won't even get into how struggling against the likes of Asmodeus(Who's been a servant of Mephisto before and even currently again) makes her case even worse, so all we got left now are only a few statements and of them supposedly being around the same level. The problem is that even in those comics like Thuderstrike#15, where they explicitly alluded that would be a great fight between them, there still contradictory statements such as Mephisto lately proclaiming that Odin's powers are equal to his own(Which for reference, it's actually something even more consistent than him actually being regarded as only Hela's equal, like back in Thor#181 when inside his domain and some others):

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And I think we both can agree that Odin should be much more powerful than Hela, right? So yes, Mephisto was already more powerful than her even back then both by feats and statements, but if we go by them from these days, Hela doesn't stand a minimal chance...Not anymore, at least. I also don't know when a weakened Odin was shown to be above him, especially because Mephisto in a direct encounter seemed very sure that could defeat him when in such state during Thor#455:

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Of course, I don't discredit that when it's someone like Kieron Gillen writing him, Mephisto then becomes afraid and even punch bag from every less Asgardian such as Frigga, Cull and others like when happened many times before(Even though part of those instances also suffer from contradictory statements as well, like Mephisto and Nightmare supposedly being unable to even take on Cull directly in Journey into Mystery#627, but still cogitating take on fricking Asgard itself nonetheless), but that's not the case here and it's a point you seemed to partially ignore it. Mephisto isn't being written like used to be, getting far better statements and feats than ever used to. Your points of Hela somehow being his equal or a weakened Odin being his superior, even though aren't true, wouldn't stand anymore because Mephisto is hardly the same character anymore, I even gave an example of this new info in my post above. Heck, Mephisto is even getting far more consistent than before, too. As for your last argument that Mephisto getting better was apparently debunked, I would say you either prove that to me or at very least link me to a post that did that...Because I've read every one of his comics so far and I don't see how feats such as stomping the new Nebulon in Defenders: The Best Defense, creating the Pre-Historic Ghost Rider whose power could even dwarf that one young Odin's in Avengers Vol.8#7, emerging as the victor in a four-way battle against the likes of even monsters such as Shuma-Gorath(Even though I do admit it's not really all that when taken the context into consideration) in Doctor Strange#389, sitting on a cosmic table of the most powerful beings in the universe alongside abstracts entities in Falcon#(2017)2, conjuring a time-stop spell so powerful that could be felt by all mystical practitioners in Champions#(2019)2 and more like even surviving King Thanos don't already prove my point instead.

@brucerogers said:

Great fight. Either way for me tbh.

Thanks, friend!

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#17 Posted by destinyman75 (15929 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101: classic Hela backed Mephsito down and Mephsito stated even ragnork would pale by comparison a war between the two. But again I did state I'm unaware of current Mephsito except some said as you did but someone else stated it was just statements not actually feats. So I'm willing to entertain the thought, I'm more used to classic. So thanks for the Info. I did lol for that old Post but it's been a minute and haven't been able to do so...

As for Shuma lol he wouldn't notice all the hell Lords combined. If Mephsito is a mere tick to Dormmamu and Dormmamu is terrified of Shuma I don't see Mephsito even being a nuisance to Shuma or even his underlings some of which are beyond eternity. Again I'm willing to listen and or see these new feats from Mephsito

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#18 Edited by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio
@destinyman75 said:

@andromeda101: classic Hela backed Mephsito down and Mephsito stated even ragnork would pale by comparison a war between the two. But again I did state I'm unaware of current Mephsito except some said as you did but someone else stated it was just statements not actually feats. So I'm willing to entertain the thought, I'm more used to classic. So thanks for the Info. I did lol for that old Post but it's been a minute and haven't been able to do so...

As for Shuma lol he wouldn't notice all the hell Lords combined. If Mephsito is a mere tick to Dormmamu and Dormmamu is terrified of Shuma I don't see Mephsito even being a nuisance to Shuma or even his underlings some of which are beyond eternity. Again I'm willing to listen and or see these new feats from Mephsito

And that's literally the comic(Thunderstrike#15) that I already used as an example for my argument and explained how it has contradictory statements, so are you really paying attention to my posts, friend? Not that matters because Hela already getting one-shotted by him from behind and struggling with one of his lesser servants show that she was never on his level, much less these days.

The problem is what already happened and Mephisto already dealt with Shuma, Dormammu and Nightmare not so long ago like I said, more specifically during Doctor Strange#389:

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Now, I don't trust anything written by the likes of Donny Cates as the same proved his inconsistency regarding power-levels many times and I already explained why isn't all like some people make it be because Mephisto still defeated them in a free-for-all battle while also using their armies, which means that depending on who fought who for the most time, they would already be weakened enough for Mephy to finish them off and BFR all of them like he did. In other words, Mephisto just needed to find a good strategy to survive long enough until the other combatants can't fight anymore and it's clear that Dormammu and Shuma were weakened by the battle as Dormmy even said as much. Regardless of all that, I personally find very hard for Odin to come close to replicate it even if was also under Cates.

Anyway, I can't debate any further because would be almost like picking sides and this is my own thread, but all my points should still be food for thought. Is it really a battle one-sided like before? Can Odin actually defeat Mephisto now?

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#19 Posted by Soratoumiga (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

Mephisto and Nightmare.

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#20 Posted by Supermanthor (22700 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor and Hulk

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#21 Posted by FinalKingThanos (3221 posts) - - Show Bio

Would it be a better fight with Odin and Old King Thor ?

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#22 Posted by deactivated-5d07416730d08 (2261 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Supermanthor (22700 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by Tedirey (3082 posts) - - Show Bio

Hell Lords stomp.

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#25 Posted by ginman333 (3099 posts) - - Show Bio

Skyfathers

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#26 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2643 posts) - - Show Bio

Skyfathers.

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#27 Edited by deactivated-5d2cf537b4a1c (3506 posts) - - Show Bio

Current? Meph solos.

Pre-nerf even Aaron's Odin had the ability to solo. He defeated a galaxy-sized storm and sealed it within uru all under his own power. He also ripped Heven from Yggdrasil and was able to snuff out stars with his breath.

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#28 Edited by KrleAvenger (26351 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly do not understand the problem with Zeus. Sure, he lacks concrete feats, but tons of reality warping entities (from Skyfathers to Abstracts) lack feats, yet by the hierarchy it is pretty clear where they stand. Zeus is superior to Pluto who is comparable to Hela, he was constantly compared to Odin, and while he was amped in Chaos War (obviously), Greg Pak confirmed that that performance was possible because Zeus' power was still contributing a lot. Besides that, he proved to be superior to the Avengers, Hercules and Thor. Again, he may lack feats, but he has hype and statements, and he has no low showings to contradict his "status". Technically by scaling, he should be above Mephisto given he is superior to Pluto who is comparable to Hela, and he is comparable to Odin who is superior to Hela by a huge margin and she was also compared to Mephisto. However, Mephisto has way better feats than Hela, and was extremely hyped up recently. So it prevents me from going with ABC logic and say he is fodder here.

That being said, I am pretty sure most of his feats were replicated and surpassed by Odin, and the All-Father should take a solid majority against the Hell-Lord. Nightmare is a different story because he does not just have raw power, but the ability to effect others with his mind manipulating abilities, which worked on beings who should be more powerful than he is. IIRC, they worked on Mikaboshi, who even as a mere God was way superior to Zeus. Which by extension should also put him above Odin. But, that is still sketchy argument because it relies on a lot of scaling. And I am not sure if Nightmare consistently operates on those levels. He does have some absurd feats, but I feel like for the majority of times, he is presented as a character who shouldn't surpass the likes of Odin. And same goes for Mephisto. Both have ton of hype and absurd showings, but Odin is more consistent and his feats are more concrete, which is why I put the All-Father above them both. That said, it can also be hypocritical of me to not apply the same logic to Zeus.

And if I do, he would be a weak link here, and I compared him to Odin multiple times. In the end, I simply can not decide who the winner is. There are way to many factors to consider and a lot of points that can be brought up. I don't think there is objective way to come up with the winner because a lot of factors are opened to interpretation. I may go with Skyfather duo simply because I imagine them being written to win if this fight were to ever happen in the comic. But that is the only reason.

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#29 Posted by ANTHP2000 (31059 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: You know I really know nothing of all these high tiers you're debating, but I still love reading your posts due to how well articulated they are...

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#30 Posted by MainJP (7546 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by BreakOfDawn (2643 posts) - - Show Bio

For anyone who's interested, I did a post about Zeus here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-marvel-zeus-breakofdawn-vs-kratos-jollyrannche-2013491/?page=2#js-message-21731076

Ignore the rest of the CaV since it was joke one aimed at annoying a troll. Anyway, there's literally a feat for Odin and Zeus where their battle shook every realm between the Infinite Embassy (at the very top of the Earthly realms) to the Earth. That means that a fight between the two Skyfathers had enough power to shake the thousands if not millions of dimensions between the Infinite Embassy and the Earth. That feat alone puts him far above Nightmare's consistent level.

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#32 Edited by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Nice breakdown, friend! You really did consider all possible factors.

@rajjar said:

Current? Meph solos.

Pre-nerf even Aaron's Odin had the ability to solo. He defeated a galaxy-sized storm and sealed it within uru all under his own power. He also ripped Heven from Yggdrasil and was able to snuff out stars with his breath.

Not exactly. Read the full OP, please.

I do fail to see how does Odin solos, at least based on that alone. I already documented feats as good as those or even better for Nightmare even when outside his dimension:

Respect The King of Terror: Nightmare(Marvel)!

@breakofdawn said:

For anyone who's interested, I did a post about Zeus here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-marvel-zeus-breakofdawn-vs-kratos-jollyrannche-2013491/?page=2#js-message-21731076

Ignore the rest of the CaV since it was joke one aimed at annoying a troll. Anyway, there's literally a feat for Odin and Zeus where their battle shook every realm between the Infinite Embassy (at the very top of the Earthly realms) to the Earth. That means that a fight between the two Skyfathers had enough power to shake the thousands if not millions of dimensions between the Infinite Embassy and the Earth. That feat alone puts him far above Nightmare's consistent level.

Depends on what you consider Nightmare's consistent level to be, it's surely impressive when looking at that angle, but it's not something that surpasses all of Nightmare's own showings as posted in the link above. Besides, I believe that much like Mephisto, Nightmare does seem to be portrayed as more powerful than usual lately. His only "low-showing" if you can all that, it's getting embarrassed in his realm by current Doctor Strange in Doctor Strange Vol.5#10(Which I honestly don't see as given Strange's very feats in that series, such as his showings against a mystical-fed Galactus), but a time later was seen as superior to Strange and the new Sleepwalker with apparent omnipotence and limitless power during Moon Girl and The Devil Dinosaur Vol.1#41. Heck, Nightmare straight up said in the latest preview of the new Doctor Strange comic that even considers the threat of Galactus to all mystical realms as beneath his notice, which it's something I seriously doubt his classic/old would even cogitate say that if truly faced against the World Devourer or even in the imminent risk of it.

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#34 Posted by green_skaar (13041 posts) - - Show Bio

Skyfathers

Nightmare is a non factor, Mephisto needs a better team mate.

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#35 Posted by deactivated-5d2cf537b4a1c (3506 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Nice breakdown, friend! You really did consider all possible factors.

@rajjar said:

Current? Meph solos.

Pre-nerf even Aaron's Odin had the ability to solo. He defeated a galaxy-sized storm and sealed it within uru all under his own power. He also ripped Heven from Yggdrasil and was able to snuff out stars with his breath.

Not exactly. Read the full OP, please.

I do fail to see how does Odin solos, at least based on that alone. I already documented feats as good as those or even better for Nightmare even when outside his dimension:

Respect The King of Terror: Nightmare(Marvel)!

Crap, my bad.

Well, should I assume the flashback feats count as legitimate under standard power levels?

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#36 Edited by deactivated-5d2cf537b4a1c (3506 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101 said:

@krleavenger: Nice breakdown, friend! You really did consider all possible factors.

@rajjar said:

Current? Meph solos.

Pre-nerf even Aaron's Odin had the ability to solo. He defeated a galaxy-sized storm and sealed it within uru all under his own power. He also ripped Heven from Yggdrasil and was able to snuff out stars with his breath.

Not exactly. Read the full OP, please.

I do fail to see how does Odin solos, at least based on that alone. I already documented feats as good as those or even better for Nightmare even when outside his dimension:

My bad.

The problem is in the inconsistency within Nightmare's funneling of his power. He seems so attached to it to the point that, if a Borson wanted to scour Earth to prevent Cul Borson from terrorizing everyone as a Fear god, he would be punked like a hungry dog. I feel like that's happened at least once...

Yes, he managed to KO Eternity with 1/3 of Earth's dreams, but independently, I found more proof showing that Nightmare's strengths and weaknesses lie on opposing sides of the same coin. Independently, those feats are a bit old. I'd have to pull the ol' galaxy busting card to counter, but those, as well, are very old.

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Independently, I checked out the thread. Nightmare isn't universal by this feat. Statements > summary.

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I'd say Nightmare is referring to Earth, considering these words, and Doom's, which confirm how tied Nightmare's powers are to Earth, doubly confirmed by Fear Itself. And yes, while I admit that Dr Voodoo says that the universe is contaminated with the unreal,

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that doesn't mean that the universe is saturated with the unreal. Contamination signifies existence of a foreign agent and implies negative effect, but it doesn't imply that Nightmare is universal at all. The dimension that Voodoo's referring to has uncannily been intrinsic to activity within the Earthly sphere, rather than activity spanning the galaxies that inhabit what once would consider regular spacetime. In fact, I find it rather interesting that right when Nightmare spread his conquest across the globe, the narrative immediately sprung to "universe." Probably means we shouldn't take things at face value.

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Latveria's a stronghold actively because Dr Doom is rejecting Nightmare's unreality, which is backed by plot and dialogue, not because the universe at large is completely immersed in the unreal that was propagated by Nightmare's power. The universe at large, is like, meh. Because Nightmare didn't immediately qualify as "universal" in this series right after spreading across a single planet. Otherwise Voodoo and friends wouldn't just be rescuing humanity from the blight. This conflict is literally Earth centric like the usual magic conflicts in 616 that involve dimensional breaches like the above.

My idea is, Nightmare's a Fear Lord, who couldn't fight Cul at the prime of his power because Cul was simply better at lording over Earth's fear than he was. But Cul would have died and Meph confirms that Nightmare also would have been a goner if Odin went for the scorched Earth policy. Odin wasn't bloodlusted for that policy, and when he realizes Nightmare is a Fear Lord, he's going to adopt the same policy response he did the last time a Fear Lord tried to gun for him.

Also, didn't Mikaboshi slaughterstomp Nightmare in his own realm during Chaos War?

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#37 Edited by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@rajjar: Not trying to sound rude here, but your argument is holding another new level of mental gymnastics and almost straight up fanfiction. Most of your points are solely based on personal interpretation with little to no concrete evidence. The worst part is that you go as far to sometimes pick instances that don't prove anything or have absolutely no relevance to your arguments, but still tries misinterpreting their meaning so they do serve at least a purpose. You even argue the semantics of the words in a context that wouldn't make sense within the very storyline. Regardless, let's address them:

The problem is in the inconsistency within Nightmare's funneling of his power. He seems so attached to it to the point that, if a Borson wanted to scour Earth to prevent Cul Borson from terrorizing everyone as a Fear god, he would be punked like a hungry dog. I feel like that's happened at least once...

Okay, I don't deny that at least under Kieron Gillen back when Journey Into Mystery#627 was launched and the resulting Fear Crown Arc subsequently came out, that might be the case, but this also literally ignoring what I said multiple times in my previous posts: "I believe that much like Mephisto, Nightmare does seem to be portrayed as more powerful than usual lately." He doesn't seem to have the same limitations as used to and because got better feats/statements, I doubt that would also coward of fear like did against Cull. Still, what's even the relevancy of this here? For starters, I don't see why Odin or Zeus would already be aware of such weaknesses firsthand and in the very middle of a battle where are being attacked by two opponents in a distant dimension, would suddenly decide to go kill all humans so Nightmare may lose his sphere of powers and influence(They can't call anyone else to do it per the rules in the OP) based on an info they might not be aware of it. Second, Nightmare's control over dreams isn't solely in the Earth as his own power source and I can prove it if you want the scans. Third, Mephisto could also give him some support to him if that happens(Although could also not happen, I'm just presenting the many options of why this battle could be still a close call, I did create it with that in mind after all).

Yes, he managed to KO Eternity with 1/3 of Earth's dreams, but independently, I found more proof showing that Nightmare's strengths and weaknesses lie on opposing sides of the same coin. Independently, those feats are a bit old. I'd have to pull the ol' galaxy busting card to counter, but those, as well, are very old.

You just gotta love the type of argument that "These feats are very old", really. Where is this official rule that says all feats must have an expiration date now? Especially to a character like Nightmare, who less much fewer appearances in the comics than either Odin or Zeus, only popping up now and then...And even each one of these appearances won't be filled with feats, so a character like that is bound to have many of his showings as being quite old. Still, Nightmare's old showings sometimes are brought up again by the recent comics, Marvel hasn't forgotten about them.

I'd say Nightmare is referring to Earth, considering these words, and Doom's, which confirm how tied Nightmare's powers are to Earth, doubly confirmed by Fear Itself.

Based on these words as well, I say you're literately making baseless assumptions here and completely reaching it like already did in our past debates. Nightmare never once said Earth, but rather world when speaking with Strange:

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Which has been used to refer to the reality/universe itself before and Strange does protect the entire reality, not only a single planet. So no, this doesn't prove anything. If Nightmare was also battling for the Earth, it doesn't mean the entire universe wasn't at stake as the unreality keep spreading it. Nightmare seemed to want to provoke Strange, who while I wrote above that does protect the entire reality, it's still a human beingand is the main mystical protector from his home planet. They've also been shown what happens when Nightmare gets hold of Earth and why he wants it during Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#40:

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For some reason, it gives an edge over the other Fears-Lords to later cause the "Great Fear" across the entire multiverse, not only the universe. Doom also never confirmed Nightmare's powers are strictly tied to Earth only, I don't even know how did you come to such conclusion. Let's take a look at what Doom said in your very scan, shall we?:

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Latveria was the only place in the universe not affected by the unreality per the very summary of the story and that was posted even by you, hence why would obviously harbor the last humans capable of dreaming by a simple logical conclusion. Or people in Latveria are now demons instead of humans according to you? Aliens? Zombies, maybe? That doesn't mean Nightmare has only affected humans or that is strictly connected to the humans only, but that the humans from Latveria are the last ones capable of dreaming given the scenario. Is it so hard to see from my/this angle? Once again, I can't fathom why do you ignore context and twist certain events.

And yes, while I admit that Dr Voodoo says that the universe is contaminated with the unreal,that doesn't mean that the universe is saturated with the unreal. Contamination signifies existence of a foreign agent and implies negative effect, but it doesn't imply that Nightmare is universal at all. The dimension that Voodoo's referring to has uncannily been intrinsic to activity within the Earthly sphere, rather than activity spanning the galaxies that inhabit what once would consider regular spacetime.

With all due respect, but I find this part downright hilarious and funny because even despite all the mental gymnastics here to convince yourself of this narrative, I think you also ended up forgetting how your very next scan does prove that Voodoo's statement was only confirming again that yes, the entire universe was saturated with unreal:

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And even worse for you, it's not the only one also backing up that notion:

No Caption Provided

You've successfully helped to debunk your own argument, congratulations. Even then, I'll let all that aside for now, do you still have any proof that Voodoo meant a dimension "intrinsic within the Earthly sphere"? Despite saying it's the universe itself in the very same dialogue panel? Did you even think that Voodoo means Nightmare is a contamination spreading throughout the whole universe? Which unlike your point, it would make perfect sense in the context of the series and the summaries above.

. In fact, I find it rather interesting that right when Nightmare spread his conquest across the globe, the narrative immediately sprung to "universe." Probably means we shouldn't take things at face value.

Maybe because indeed spread throughout the whole universe off-panel instead of just across the globe like has already been confirmed by a statement and that very summary of the comic? Did you consider this simple option? Your argument here just seems "I don't agree with this proven information, so it isn't true". That's the very author telling you what happened, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. You shouldn't and don't need to create an entire narrative to justify your opinions, friend. What's been confirmed by an official source two times in a roll should be a fact and so is a fact that Nightmare's unreality plagued the entire universe.

Latveria's a stronghold actively because Dr Doom is rejecting Nightmare's unreality, which is backed by plot and dialogue, not because the universe at large is completely immersed in the unreal that was propagated by Nightmare's power. The universe at large, is like, meh. Because Nightmare didn't immediately qualify as "universal" in this series right after spreading across a single planet. Otherwise Voodoo and friends wouldn't just be rescuing humanity from the blight. This conflict is literally Earth centric like the usual magic conflicts in 616 that involve dimensional breaches like the above.

They aren't even close to being mutually exclusive, once again, I can't understand how do you come to such conclusions. Just because Latveria resisted Nightmare's unreality thanks to Doom shielding the entire place, it doesn't mean it wasn't propagated to all of the reality, especially because they straight up say word by word that it's actually the universe's last stronghold of reality and even the last bastion of reality in the entire universe. You're the one here who thinks that was spreading across a single planet only by basing yourself on basically nothing concrete, that's not something factual or any sort of proof in this debate. Who said that Voodoo has only ended up rescuing humans, to begin with? Just because we hadn't seen the other places, it doesn't mean it didn't happen on such scale, that's for what Voodoo's statements the two summaries serve for. Since Latveria is on Earth and the is last place free from the unreality, it would obviously be an Earth-centric conflict. And please, don't talk like you're the paladin of information about everything magic-related when it looks like you've been missing almost 60 years of Marvel Comics regarding the mystical-side. Strange himself is a character that was shown many times how mystical conflicts having grand stakes that could affect all the universes, could still be somewhat Earth-centric...It's because plenty of main characters are still mostly Earth centric after. Why does big cosmic even have the big participation of Earth heroes like the F4 then? Or the Avengers? Really, I find that a very poor excuse of your part. The very writer isn't obliged to follow the narrative you like and put even aliens in there, too.

Also, didn't Mikaboshi slaughterstomp Nightmare in his own realm during Chaos War?

Mikaboshi ripped his heart out and killed him, but some could argue Nightmare was taken out by a cheap-shot when was dealing with Hercules. Regardless, Nightmare was still able to put him to sleep alongside the rest of the God Squad during Incredible Hercules#118.

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#38 Posted by Kidolio (1688 posts) - - Show Bio

How can Odin be bad in bed? he literally can’t be with his power set. Just make yourself good at sex or use your all knowing mind and find out all of her g-spots.

What the hell is wrong with the writer right now? He can’t be this ignorant of Odin’s powers and versatility. Seriously the guys making such bad excuse and we can all see through his crap, who does he think he’s pleasing here?

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#39 Edited by MisterWxW (6 posts) - - Show Bio

Skyfathers is a best

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#40 Posted by Kidolio (1688 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidolio said:

How can Odin be bad in bed? he literally can’t be with his power set. Just make yourself good at sex or use your all knowing mind and find out all of her g-spots.

What the hell is wrong with the writer right now? He can’t be this ignorant of Odin’s powers and versatility. Seriously the guys making such bad excuse and we can all see through his crap, who does he think he’s pleasing here?

Aaron likes to spite/troll Odin and everyone who likes the character for some reason. An example of this is the cover of Thor's tenth issue that gave many people false hopes as it had a happy Thor and Odin sitting on the rainbow bridge and drinking it together, only for the comic inside be the exact opposite.

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#42 Posted by MisterWxW (6 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Kidolio (1688 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101: What is his problem? Why is he trying to spite the people who actually read comics or the people who have an interest? Seriously the guy seem so petty when he writes what he thinks people’s complaints are into his books and expect us to like it. He’s suppose to be a professional. Don’t even get me started on his power consistency, or more accurately, the lack of it.

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#44 Posted by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidolio: If I were to guess, I think it might be because Aaron decided to go full-on with some sort of quota/agenda by bashing a male character like Odin more and more with each comic.

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#45 Posted by Kidolio (1688 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101: Wow, bashing a character he doesn’t like, are we writing fanfiction right now?

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#46 Posted by Alisupo1 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin and Zeus win

Odin has experience

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5ce3042da69f9 (49 posts) - - Show Bio

team 2 wins mid diff

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#48 Posted by KrleAvenger (26351 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Edited by deactivated-5d2cf537b4a1c (3506 posts) - - Show Bio

@andromeda101 said:

@rajjar: Not trying to sound rude here, but your argument is holding another new level of mental gymnastics and almost straight up fanfiction. Most of your points are solely based on personal interpretation with little to no concrete evidence. The worst part is that you go as far to sometimes pick instances that don't prove anything or have absolutely no relevance to your arguments, but still tries misinterpreting their meaning so they do serve at least a purpose. You even argue the semantics of the words in a context that wouldn't make sense within the very storyline. Regardless, let's address them:

The problem is in the inconsistency within Nightmare's funneling of his power. He seems so attached to it to the point that, if a Borson wanted to scour Earth to prevent Cul Borson from terrorizing everyone as a Fear god, he would be punked like a hungry dog. I feel like that's happened at least once...

Okay, I don't deny that at least under Kieron Gillen back when Journey Into Mystery#627 was launched and the resulting Fear Crown Arc subsequently came out, that might be the case, but this also literally ignoring what I said multiple times in my previous posts: "I believe that much like Mephisto, Nightmare does seem to be portrayed as more powerful than usual lately." He doesn't seem to have the same limitations as used to and because got better feats/statements, I doubt that would also coward of fear like did against Cull. Still, what's even the relevancy of this here? For starters, I don't see why Odin or Zeus would already be aware of such weaknesses firsthand and in the very middle of a battle where are being attacked by two opponents in a distant dimension, would suddenly decide to go kill all humans so Nightmare may lose his sphere of powers and influence(They can't call anyone else to do it per the rules in the OP) based on an info they might not be aware of it. Second, Nightmare's control over dreams isn't solely in the Earth as his own power source and I can prove it if you want the scans. Third, Mephisto could also give him some support to him if that happens(Although could also not happen, I'm just presenting the many options of why this battle could be still a close call, I did create it with that in mind after all).

Yes, he managed to KO Eternity with 1/3 of Earth's dreams, but independently, I found more proof showing that Nightmare's strengths and weaknesses lie on opposing sides of the same coin. Independently, those feats are a bit old. I'd have to pull the ol' galaxy busting card to counter, but those, as well, are very old.

You just gotta love the type of argument that "These feats are very old", really. Where is this official rule that says all feats must have an expiration date now? Especially to a character like Nightmare, who less much fewer appearances in the comics than either Odin or Zeus, only popping up now and then...And even each one of these appearances won't be filled with feats, so a character like that is bound to have many of his showings as being quite old. Still, Nightmare's old showings sometimes are brought up again by the recent comics, Marvel hasn't forgotten about them.

I'd say Nightmare is referring to Earth, considering these words, and Doom's, which confirm how tied Nightmare's powers are to Earth, doubly confirmed by Fear Itself.

Based on these words as well, I say you're literately making baseless assumptions here and completely reaching it like already did in our past debates. Nightmare never once said Earth, but rather world when speaking with Strange:

No Caption Provided

Which has been used to refer to the reality/universe itself before and Strange does protect the entire reality, not only a single planet. So no, this doesn't prove anything. If Nightmare was also battling for the Earth, it doesn't mean the entire universe wasn't at stake as the unreality keep spreading it. Nightmare seemed to want to provoke Strange, who while I wrote above that does protect the entire reality, it's still a human beingand is the main mystical protector from his home planet. They've also been shown what happens when Nightmare gets hold of Earth and why he wants it during Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#40:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

For some reason, it gives an edge over the other Fears-Lords to later cause the "Great Fear" across the entire multiverse, not only the universe. Doom also never confirmed Nightmare's powers are strictly tied to Earth only, I don't even know how did you come to such conclusion. Let's take a look at what Doom said in your very scan, shall we?:

Latveria was the only place in the universe not affected by the unreality per the very summary of the story and that was posted even by you, hence why would obviously harbor the last humans capable of dreaming by a simple logical conclusion. Or people in Latveria are now demons instead of humans according to you? Aliens? Zombies, maybe? That doesn't mean Nightmare has only affected humans or that is strictly connected to the humans only, but that the humans from Latveria are the last ones capable of dreaming given the scenario. Is it so hard to see from my/this angle? Once again, I can't fathom why do you ignore context and twist certain events.

And yes, while I admit that Dr Voodoo says that the universe is contaminated with the unreal,that doesn't mean that the universe is saturated with the unreal. Contamination signifies existence of a foreign agent and implies negative effect, but it doesn't imply that Nightmare is universal at all. The dimension that Voodoo's referring to has uncannily been intrinsic to activity within the Earthly sphere, rather than activity spanning the galaxies that inhabit what once would consider regular spacetime.

With all due respect, but I find this part downright hilarious and funny because even despite all the mental gymnastics here to convince yourself of this narrative, I think you also ended up forgetting how your very next scan does prove that Voodoo's statement was only confirming again that yes, the entire universe was saturated with unreal:

And even worse for you, it's not the only one also backing up that notion:

You've successfully helped to debunk your own argument, congratulations. Even then, I'll let all that aside for now, do you still have any proof that Voodoo meant a dimension "intrinsic within the Earthly sphere"? Despite saying it's the universe itself in the very same dialogue panel? Did you even think that Voodoo means Nightmare is a contamination spreading throughout the whole universe? Which unlike your point, it would make perfect sense in the context of the series and the summaries above.

. In fact, I find it rather interesting that right when Nightmare spread his conquest across the globe, the narrative immediately sprung to "universe." Probably means we shouldn't take things at face value.

Maybe because indeed spread throughout the whole universe off-panel instead of just across the globe like has already been confirmed by a statement and that very summary of the comic? Did you consider this simple option? Your argument here just seems "I don't agree with this proven information, so it isn't true". That's the very author telling you what happened, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. You shouldn't and don't need to create an entire narrative to justify your opinions, friend. What's been confirmed by an official source two times in a roll should be a fact and so is a fact that Nightmare's unreality plagued the entire universe.

You have some valid points, and I have not the time to address all of them today, but I'd like you to consider the third paragraph- specifically the part that says "globe" before you defend that I'm the one who's twisting the narrative to his own end. And at the very least, I'm not extrapolating anything beyond the face value at the text.

No Caption Provided

If anything, my mental gymnastics are an objective definition of the word "stronghold," and the word "globe," which is a much better picture, and yes, a more concrete one at that, of the setting of the comic in question. I choose to interpret it as "There is no other stronghold," and leave it at that, since everything else is speculative and not actually proven by even a single scan in the series.

On that note, I choose to interpret Doom's quote as intrinsic to humans and humans alone. It provides no further information outside of the Earth, as does the fact that the scan from issue 4 that you keep hammering onto me only proves that Nightmare has saturated Earth, and Earth alone. Earth cannot be the last defense stronghold in the universe and the initial breach at the same time, which is supported by the description of events in my scan. If you can prove that Nightmare actually did extend unreality out of the global sphere and into outer space, I will concede. I think you are extrapolating "universe" from "world," which needs better evidence than a decades old comic that reifies Strange's position as Sorcerer Supreme of the universe, which I never denied to begin with. Strange is also seen as the protector of Earth, which "world" seems to mean, as Nightmare wants to bond it with his realm. Independently, as seen in your first scan, Dweller in Darkness and Nightmare seem rather piqued with humanity's fears (and the octopoid actually thinks it's better than anything else the multiverse has to offer), which seems to confirm my thought that Nightmare was vying for humanity all along.

And lastly,

@andromeda101 said:

Who said that Voodoo has only ended up rescuing humans, to begin with?

Speculation.

Just because we hadn't seen the other places, it doesn't mean it didn't happen on such scale, that's for what Voodoo's statements the two summaries serve for.

Speculation and extrapolation. You are drawing massive conclusions from the mere mention of the word "universe." And the summary from the 5th issue

does well to refine the summary of the 4th.

Since Latveria is on Earth and the is last place free from the unreality, it would obviously be an Earth-centric conflict.

Suspicious - it is the last stronghold. Unreality can pass wherever it can as long as someone isn't resisting it like Doom is. It doesn't mean the entire universe has been converted to unreality.

And please, don't talk like you're the paladin of information about everything magic-related when it looks like you've been missing almost 60 years of Marvel Comics regarding the mystical-side.

I'm not, and this is laughable.

Sure, the magic world has spilled consequences for all over the universe(s), but I'm talking about incursions onto Earth, which start on Earth and end on Earth - which included the time Dormy got assaulted by Luke Cage, and the recent one where he called more Faltine to destroy stuff. Or even in CW2 when the sorcerers banished a Celestial with a group spell. You could pull many things from decades of canon, but not even one instance would matter since this instance - this comic - hasn't went beyond planetary boundaries in the ways the events of 616's magical past have. Or should I say, there is sparse evidence in this comic to equate it with anything you could.

And it's strange that you would accuse me of such a thing. I only said -

This conflict is literally Earth centric like the usual magic conflicts in 616 that involve dimensional breaches like the above.

I don't appreciate your strawman, since I'm only talking in the context of conflicts that are intrinsic to Earth. I am only comparing it to incursions, and I've defined examples of those that form a baseline version of what I see the issue as, not excursions, which is a significant portion of the evidence you would recall at this point.

Strange himself is a character that was shown many times how mystical conflicts having grand stakes that could affect all the universes,

That isn't intrinsic to mystical conflicts. Or to cosmic conflict, or to conflict at all. Nor is it relevant to the particular comic we are discussing. Defending your extrapolation with "it's happened before," doesn't actually define this instance, since it doesn't follow the spatial/cosmic conditions of the mystical conflicts that you are referring to.

could still be somewhat Earth-centric.

Big emphasis on somewhat. This conflict is Earth-centric, and with little proof to counter it.

..It's because plenty of main characters are still mostly Earth centric after. Why does big cosmic even have the big participation of Earth heroes like the F4 then? Or the Avengers? Really, I find that a very poor excuse of your part.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not talking about excursions, and this issue here isn't an excursion either.

The very writer isn't obliged to follow the narrative you like and put even aliens in there, too.

The writer is obliged to provide a consistent narrative, one which doesn't irrevocably magnify the conflict by putting "universe" in a few summary boxes without a single scan to actually support said statements. Just because the universe will be affected by the introduction of unreality by Nightmare doesn't mean that it is wholly unreal. I don't think that's an applicable description of Remender's work, as a whole, nor in any actual scan.

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#50 Edited by Andromeda101 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@rajjar:You have some valid points, and I have not the time to address all of them today, but I'd like you to consider the third paragraph- specifically the part that says "globe" before you defend that I'm the one who's twisting the narrative to his own end. And at the very least, I'm not extrapolating anything beyond the face value at the text.

Now I see you might not only be twisting it, but haven't paid much attention to the story all at. First off and once again, those terms are not mutually exclusive in the slightness. For starters, just because it said rapidly spread throughout the globe, it doesn't mean it stopped there and didn't go further as well. Not that I really need to argue about common sense with you in the end because have you forgotten that Nightmare's first action was rather using the Scrying Stones spread his influence across everyone who were watching it? Daniel said word by word this, even using the same term as the summary:

No Caption Provided

And to later then spread his unreality. Those are two different events and that's what happened to all mystical arts/Sorcerer Supreme candidates on Earth, later to Jericho as well when fought The Hood, that's what the summary it's referring to when said that Nightmare's influence spread across the globe. Doom wasn't either effect by Nightmare's control AND by the unreality because had activated his actuality shield. The unreality then spread itself across the universe, leaving the only protected Latveria as the only unaffected by it thanks to Doom's previous counter-actions before everything started it. You've also forgotten the second summary from the last comic, which does explicitly confirm that Latveria is the only place of reality left in the entire universe:

No Caption Provided

You're arguing two different things here, which makes me wonder if have truly read the story. And before you start twisting up words and continue with your narrative that it simply means Latveria is the only safe place in the universe for being called a stronghold and thus it doesn't mean it necessarily affected the rest of the universe, I'll remind you the scan above said the last bastion of reality in the universe, so the very specific use of the words actually proves my point instead that it did indeed spread through the whole universe.

If anything, my mental gymnastics are an objective definition of the word "stronghold," and the word "globe," which is a much better picture, and yes, a more concrete one at that, of the setting of the comic in question. I choose to interpret it as "There is no other stronghold," and leave it at that, since everything else is speculative and not actually proven by even a single scan in the series.

Your mental gymnastics are a narrative that doesn't sustain itself because it's based on no concrete proof or simply ignore canon information established by the writer itself, which funnily enough, consist in your entire strategy of argumentation in the debate. All of your arguments are purely speculative, as are some of mine as well, but I gave at least one concrete evidence of Nightmare's unreality spreading throughout the entire universe and I also try to not take my speculations as the absolute truth unlike you do. Your personal takes don't hold more weight than mine own and vice versa, but we still debate with what we can prove and you're failing miserably at that. Your argument doesn't even make any sense when looking at the bigger picture because Doom was aware of Nightmare's actions beforehand and so was only able to protect himself and his home because had activated his actuality shield of true matter before everything started it :

No Caption Provided

Or do you no think that Latveria and Doom are the only people in the entire universe, among all types of advanced races with all types of advanced technology we see in the comics, to create something so trivial like a shield of true matter?That no other person or race in the entire universe can replicate such level of tech, maybe even something similar? Yeah, that's how ridiculous and dumb both you and your argument look like right now. Latveria can't be the only stronghold in the universe by using such a defensive method, but it can be the only stronghold in the universe if Doom was able to protect himself first by being the only one who was aware of the threat firsthand. Once again, I find baffling all your reasoning.

On that note, I choose to interpret Doom's quote as intrinsic to humans and humans alone. It provides no further information outside of the Earth, as does the fact that the scan from issue 4 that you keep hammering onto me only proves that Nightmare has saturated Earth, and Earth alone.

You can interpret as much as you like it, but I want you to prove it as well. You posting nothing concrete, ignoring events/information because isn't of your liking it and coming up with the most ridiculous conclusions don't really help me see your side. I already address that scan above and what truly meant, so won't do this again.

Earth cannot be the last defense stronghold in the universe and the initial breach at the same time, which is supported by the description of events in my scan.

You just forgot a tiny detail like always, smartass...That Doom knew of this and shielded Latveria before the event, so yes, Earth can be the last defense simple because that. Is it so hard to see something so simple and basic like that, friend?

If you can prove that Nightmare actually did extend unreality out of the global sphere and into outer space, I will concede.

I already gave you the evidence. You that either lack the interpretation skills or is simply dishonest to see it.

I think you are extrapolating "universe" from "world," which needs better evidence than a decades old comic that reifies Strange's position as Sorcerer Supreme of the universe, which I never denied to begin with. Strange is also seen as the protector of Earth, which "world" seems to mean,as Nightmare wants to bond it with his realm.

Extrapolating terms? That's just rich coming from the likes of you, really. I simply have shown another interpretation of it, which is just as much as valid as your own and so proves that your argument about Nightmare's words as an indicative proof the of the unreal affecting only the Earth means nothing if isn't backed by proof. And as I also said: "If Nightmare was also battling for the Earth, it doesn't mean the entire universe wasn't at stake as the unreality keep spreading it. Nightmare seemed to want to provoke Strange, who while I wrote above that does protect the entire reality, it's still a human being and is the main mystical protector from his home planet." You think too highly of yourself if believes your opinion by itself matters so much, honestly.

Independently, as seen in your first scan, Dweller in Darkness and Nightmare seem rather piqued with humanity's fears (and the octopoid actually thinks it's better than anything else the multiverse has to offer), which seems to confirm my thought that Nightmare was vying for humanity all along.

Which doesn't mean they didn't and can't thrive for more, which's something that I wonder if have you actually thought about it. I don't deny that Nightmare and Dweller want Earth more than anything, but this is more an obsession of their own. Even in those scans, I can see you didn't read the story, because Dweller would first come from Earth and then the rest of the multiverse per his own words in Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#40:

No Caption Provided

Same with Nightmare.

And lastly,

Good, so let's get this over with.

Speculation.

Once again, quite rich coming from you. Wasn't speculation of your part when Voodoo said the dimension as only the intrinsic to the Earthly plane? Wasn't speculation of your part to downright assume Nightmare was talking only about Earth with Stephen? Wasn't speculation from your part to assume that Doom's words also mean the same? I made an indagation, sure, but at least I got the summaries to back me up, they together with Voodoo's statement were the way the writer used to show that indeed spread throughout the whole universe. Don't like it? Wish it had something more? That's not my problem and neither from the writer, it's yours. I do admit wouldn't have hurt to show something on-panel, but the evidence in the form of statements and the words of the very writer for that are still there regardless.

Speculation and extrapolation. You are drawing massive conclusions from the mere mention of the word "universe." And the summary from the 5th issue

does well to refine the summary of the 4th.

Suspicious - it is the last stronghold. Unreality can pass wherever it can as long as someone isn't resisting it like Doom is. It doesn't mean the entire universe has been converted to unreality.

Oh really? Tell me, but remember your own arguments beforehand. I already addressed those point above, so won't lose my time with them again. I do love your own contradictions with your reasoning though, "unreality can pass wherever it can as long as someone isn't resting like Doom is"? Then why was Latveria called the last stronghold in the universe? The lastbastion of reality in the universe? You keep destroying your own arguments with a logic that doesn't make sense at all, friend. For example, according to your logic, if someone can resist like Doom, it would stop his unreality...Which I agree with it, but then wouldn't make any sense based on the words they used to describe the situation.

I'm not, and this is laughable.

Sure, the magic world has spilled consequences for all over the universe(s), but I'm talking about incursions onto Earth, which start on Earth and end on Earth

Oh really? I say what's laughable are the arguments you used so far. This part for example, where you use specific instances(These incursions) without giving the proper context for anyone reading your arguments and thinks that prove your point, but at the same time, gets angry when I try to use associations. I say that's the biggest problem with your points, their coherency. Who cares about them when this case isn't remotely the same after all? Something I already proved here that time and time again.

which included the time Dormy got assaulted by Luke Cage

Dormammu himself never got assaulted by Luke Cage. I assume you're talking about the events which transpired during Bendis' New Avengers#54, no? I hate when people either omit context or just mention something they don't really know, leaving other people to believe in words, but I guess it's not much of your own fault. This doesn't have that much importance to the main core of your argument since people thrown this claim around to try to dismiss Dormy, but it was a Hood empowered by Dormammu who was after the Eye of Agamotto. It wasn't the entity himself, but Parkins as his vessel, something I already proved before:

:Only when he doesn't fully manifest himself in them.

Which didn't happen with Robbins. It's also been hinted by Dormammu himself that he needs to possess one soul at a time to completely manifest:

No Caption Provided

True. But as i explained above it depends how much Dormammu manifests in them and how much power he gives them. Also it was stated that Dormammu fully manifested himself in full power while possessing Hood, so there is info backing that up - scan.

What did happen is that Dormammu offered to Robbins the full power/control, but he refused:

No Caption Provided

They show very explicitly later(Right before Dorm being exorcised) that Dormammu wasn't fully manifested and still gaining access:

No Caption Provided

Doctor Strange himself said to Robbins that Dormammu's promises, in the end, are all falses:

No Caption Provided

So even if Dormammu can completely manifest himself in a body and maintain full control of his powers, Robbins wasn't the case. The very guidebook The Mysterious Wolrd of Doctor Strange also explicitly refers to it as a Hood EMPOWERED by Dormammu and not the entity itself:

No Caption Provided

Kinda obvious. :D

Still shows a gap between Dormammu himself and his hosts though.

No offence, but there is no concrete information in your scan showing that. He just talks about possessing more souls to spread the message and that's it.

Like I said, it hints that and not confirms. I'm not trying to bypass that as an indisputable proof, only something worth mentioning. Still, Dormammu showed that need to spread the Mindless Plagues to render his influence on Earth, so this might follow the same concept. My focus is more on the Hood himself anway.

Hood didn't refuse those powers, he simply didn't do what Dorm hinted, gain skills to master those powers and that's it. He had power but not the skills, which is always the case with magic powers of skyfather tier, i mean just look at Thor and Odinforce, mastery = more potent usage of it.

I should've made my point clear then. Dormammu did offer the Hood to gain completely mastery/control of his powers, but that reflected in how much he knew to use it. Jennifer Kale wasn't that different, for example. That's also a very shitty comparison. Thor has a god-like biology and some considerable knowledge of the mystical/cosmic energies....The Hood is just an ordinary human how basically knows nothing of magic. Besides, do you know that reflects on my point as well? The Hood can have all of Dormammu's energies available to him but without the training, disciple and knowledge(Which he has none), Robbins won't be able to channel/access them:

No Caption Provided

Why do you think novices have problems to do the most basic of spells or cast the stronger ones? Imagine Robbins who has access to Dormammu's energies, yet his mystical training is beyond pathetic. All practitioners can potentially drag upon infinite amounts of energy depending on the three factors I mentioned. So no, Dormammu may have given a chest of gold to Robbins, but the later doesn't know how to open it.

Still your scan shows none of that, post more proper evidence indicating that.

It does show that, but you're the one ignoring it and if we're gonna argue semantics, nor your scan shows that Hood had the full power of Dormammu or prove that he kept his word....Dormammu says that Robbins asked for all "secrets" of the Dark Dimension and not all of Dorm's own power, it also says that Dormammu gave him the power asked by Robbins yet doesn't mention if it is all of Dorm's power(Excuse me, The Dark Dimension) or how much Robbins asked(Secrets aren't power after all). I know Dormammu promised him all the power of the Dark Dimension in New Avengers#46, but did Dormammu really do that? Especially because Dormammu said that will need to guide him and Robbins was clearly fighting against his influence most times:

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They explicitly said and shown that Dormammu is still gaining access through the Hood's body, so he wasn't fully manifested yet. Hood didn't have full-control, remember? It's very clear by that Hood also didn't know how to full-access Dormammu's energy/power right off the bat as well and this can be when he was slowing taking different, more demonic and powerful forms before getting in one that resembles more Dormammu himself:

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So makes sense for Dormammu not being completely manifested. It's already been shown by the other comics that after possessing a body, Dormammu takes time to reach his full-power and control:

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And this was when inside Strange's body, which is someone whose mystical powers and affinity are far greater than Robbins. My other scans above even happened after your own and fiding/battling Strange, which is part of the promised made by Dormammu(Yet Robbins still didn't access the full-power). You said that Dormammu gave Robbins his full-power, but can you prove to me the later even knows how to access/channel all of it?

Read your scan again, Dr. Strange simply hints on classic cliche that bargaining with demons doesn't end well.

Also Hood's goal was not power actually, his goal was something different. Plus Dormammu is not your average demon, this guy can give skyfather and the likes hell, he is not the lieing type guy.

Like you said: "Post more proper evidence indicating that." Especially because there are many instances showings how tricky and dishonest Dormammu's deals are, for example with Meggan:

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And Strange knows Dormammu better than anyone. I prefer to not enter into a debate about where Dormammu's power-level ranks in comparison to skyfathers(Most because there are four to five different instances portraying Dorm as more powerful, lel) and this has less to do with power, but more how twisted and evil is the personality of Dormammu. Aren't you the one who said that my scans of Dormammu being "Worse than a demon" was about his personality? Then wouldn't be beyond him breaking his own deals. Especially with someone that he doesn't respect like Strange and didn't think twice before replacing him for another person, basically breaking their deal:

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Heck, we can even take Dormammu himself saying that can't get out of his realm even when the Hood was still his pawn for Dorm to possesses him like in the New Avengers:

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Which would indicate once again the form assumed by the Hood wasn't really the true/real Dormammu.

Which depends on the context.

And the context was that Dormammu wasn't fully manifested on Robbins.

Regardless, I fail to see why to mention this instance. Dormammu wanted the Eye of Agamotto, The Eye was on Earth since as you should know, Strange is a human...Hence the conflict was on Earth and with a human vessel, but if the object was anywhere else, it's events would be in that place. I can't believe I need to explain something so simple for you, dude.

and the recent one where he called more Faltine to destroy stuff.

This just proved you haven't read the comic or don't pay attention to it. Dormammu never called anything, Strange was in debt because of his overall excessive use of magic and one of the main themes during Cates, Aaron and Waid's run is that "magic always come with a price". Strange's price this time around was simply his home planet because the Faltine Elders deemed it as an equivalent and worthy one, not because they specifically wanted the Earth to conquer it or something like that as you make it sound. T.Hothran specifically said that in Doctor Strange Vol.5#10:

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Dormammu just came with them because saw as an advantage against Strange. So yes, I believe you haven't read the story.

Or even in CW2 when the sorcerers banished a Celestial with a group spell.

Okay, and? With all due respect, but this is just getting straight up retarded of your part. Just because certain events involving mystics started on Earth and ended or Earth, doesn't mean they couldn't go beyond had the chance. The Celestial Destructor they banished was even mentioned as a cosmic threat in International Iron Man#4:

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But because was stopped on Earth, does that mean it's power is any less? Is that what you're trying to say? Just because Nightmare was stopped on Earth, it doesn't mean the whole universal unreality didn't happen. As I said, Latveria was on Earth after all and the only place safe.

. You could pull many things from decades of canon, but not even one instance would matter since this instance - this comic - hasn't went beyond planetary boundaries in the ways the events of 616's magical past have. Or should I say, there is sparse evidence in this comic to equate it with anything you could.

That's only what you personally think and still need it to yet prove it with a decent proof, which may be something shocking to you given all the arguments used so far, but it's how debates go.

And it's strange that you would accuse me of such a thing. I only said -

I don't appreciate your strawman, since I'm only talking in the context of conflicts that are intrinsic to Earth. I am only comparing it to incursions, and I've defined examples of those that form a baseline version of what I see the issue as, not excursions, which is a significant portion of the evidence you would recall at this point.

Then will appreciate even less because I'll repeat it once again: "And please, don't talk like you're the paladin of information about everything magic-related when it looks like you've been missing almost 60 years of Marvel Comics regarding the mystical-side." And a strange thing? Looking at the examples above, I think more and more that my statement was correct and you're just some sort of poser based on this and all the debates we already had. Besides, I think extremely egocentric of your part to even believe for a moment that your opinion that mystical incursions on Earth don't go beyond that. A clear example against your opinion is the mystical incursion Dormammu did that started on Earth during Amazing Spider-Man Vol.2#57-58 and later took over the entire universe as revealed in Amazing Spider-Man#500. So as you can see, your strictly personal opinion means less than nothing to me.

That isn't intrinsic to mystical conflicts. Or to cosmic conflict, or to conflict at all. Nor is it relevant to the particular comic we are discussing. Defending your extrapolation with "it's happened before," doesn't actually define this instance, since it doesn't follow the spatial/cosmic conditions of the mystical conflicts that you are referring to.

Says the same user that was using different incursions and comics to establish his example above. The same can literally be said to you. Do you easily forget about your arguments or is just pure hypocrisy right now? Do you also mean the conditions you twist up like the three examples above?

Big emphasis on somewhat. This conflict is Earth-centric, and with little proof to counter it.

If you mean as the place where narrative mainly develops and ends sure, but if you meant as the overall effects, then no. It did affect the entire universe and if all your arguments will continue to follow the same line of thought, I say you'll never convince me of otherwise.

The writer is obliged to provide a consistent narrative, one which doesn't irrevocably magnify the conflict by putting "universe" in a few summary boxes without a single scan to actually support said statements. Just because the universe will be affected by the introduction of unreality by Nightmare doesn't mean that it is wholly unreal. I don't think that's an applicable description of Remender's work, as a whole, nor in any actual scans.

And he did with one statement and two summaries boxes, but sadly, I think that for someone that's so devoted to maintaining his personal narrative that keeps twisting up the events or outright ignoring them wouldn't believe in what they said. Again: "Your argument here just seems "I don't agree with this proven information, so it isn't true". That's the very author telling you what happened, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. You shouldn't and don't need to create an entire narrative to justify your opinions, friend. What's been confirmed by an official source two times in a roll should be a fact and so is a fact that Nightmare's unreality plagued the entire universe."