The Red Lotus(Lok) vs. The Order of the White Lotus

The Red Lotus goes up against members of its former self, the former Grandmasters. Which Lotus group will come out on top.

The Red Lotus (Zaheer, P'Li, Ghazan & Ming-Hua)

The Order of the White Lotus (Iroh, JJ, Bumi, Pakku & Piandao)

Rules

Note: There is one sheet of metal sticking up from the ground on the Grandmaster's side of the battlefield for them to use for cover from P'Li's combustion.

• Starting Distance: 30 metres
• Win by KO or death
• The battlefield has sufficient Water and Earth
• The white Lotus are fully prepped
• The grandmasters have knowledge on RL abilities
• Everyone is to character

Bonus Round: Tenzin is subbed in for Piandao

Probably the White Lotus, it'd be an awesome fight but the Red Lotus hasn't done enough to suggest they can win a majority against guys like Iroh and Bumi

@korraspirit: you kind of gave the white lotus every advantage but even without them they still win. more feats, experience, and raw power. it could be argued that zaheer beats tenzin but even that is on the fence

@hyperlight:

I don't know how Zaheer beating Tenzin is on the fence. Zaheer has been far more impressive than Tenzin with far fewer opportunities.

Granted though I do agree that white Lotus should come out on top with Bumi and Iroh as MVPs.

@lunacyde:

I get the feeling that Korra or Tenzin will beat Zaheer by air bending like how its supposed to be.

Zaheer is bending in a way that fundamentally goes against air-bending principles.He is too offensive.I dont think you can reach your full potential in air-bending if you use his style.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/white-lotus-a-tla-vs-red-lotus-lok-1589305/

Already done.

The Red Lotus. Nthe white Lotus do not have an air bender, so they are already at a disadvantage. There is nothing Bumi could do to Ghazan. Ghazan would just nullify or his earth benign attacks and turn them into lava. P'Li will blow everyone's brains out.

@gxrevolution96: Ghazan could nullify some of Bumi's attacks, but Bumi's shown far more raw power than Ghazan, he should be able to overwhelm him.

Zuko was able to block an attack from Combustion Man. If he could do that, then Iroh and Jeong Jeong (whose signature move is fire shields) should be able to defend against P'li.

@lunacyde: its up for debate i guess

Red.

White.

@arcus: Good point. Funnily enough, I was arguing that very same point on forum just a few hours ago. If Zuko can block CM's combustion attack with just a fire shield, then I am certain Iroh and JJ could do it, considering they are better fire benders than Zuko

White Lotus stomps.

Original WL Scenario:

IC:
Red Lotus, and easily. Piandao is a non-factor, Jeong Jeong will just flee, Bumi will hold back too damn much and Iroh or Pakku don't have the feats to beat Ming Hua or P'Li (though I guess that's arguable).

Bloodlusted:
White Lotus 10/10. Piandao could arguably take flightless Zaheer on his own, Ming Hua still beats Pakku, P'Li can still take Iroh and potentially do it very fast, but even then bloodlusted makes Jeong Jeong and esspecially Bumi insane powerhouses. Ming is the only one that could arguably take Jeong Jeong down 1v1 and Bumi can solo like 3 people of the RL on his own, meaning that's overkill.

WL w/Tenzin:

IC:
Red Lotus wins, but it's closer. Tenzin is MVP.

Bloodlusted:
White Lotus still wins 10/10.

Red lotus. There only threat is Bumi who will give them hell for a while.

@tektonic: Every member of the White Lotus is a threat accounting for hype, and JJ, Pakku, and Bumi all have good feats. Even Piandao has a feat of moving FTE.

Anyways, WL due to prep, full knowledge, and numbers. King Bumi is MVP.

The round with Tenzin is a stomp for the WL. Tenzin can 1v1 any Lotus member, Bumi can arguably 2v1 any Lotus members, and Pakku/Iroh/Jeong Jeong together can 3v1 the last one.

@anthp2000:

Jeong Jeong won't flee the battle ICly if it means leaving the other masters to die. He fled against Zhao because his people had already escaped and he knew Aang would confidently defeat Zhao. We also know that he will fight if it's for a cause he believes in. His skill set also happens to be the perfect counter against P'li, as we know fire walls can block combustion blasts. Bumi also doesn't hold back much at all against actual enemies if he feels it's his time to fight. He's still goofy, but he also trashes groups of enemies and casually hurls houses at people and launches tanks into the air.

White lotus, definitely. Pai Mei would arrive and promptly perform the 5 point palm exploding heart technique on all aggressors. Ignore me guys. Just a joke. I saw "White Lotus" and couldn't resist a "Kill Bill" reference. Be gentle please.

Hype isn't valid here feats are. The Red Lotus were said to be capable of beating anyone. Is that valid too? That being said...

I didn't see how stacked the conditions are for the White Lotus. What a biased thread. I guess the White Lotus do win with these ridiculous conditions.

On a normal circumstance Red Lotus would win.

So can all the other elements. Zuko's defense was no more effective than other ones that went up against combustion bending.

JJ's firewalls also lack any feats and were easily bypassed.

@tektonic:

Not true. Katara had a massive body of water instantly evaporated against Combustion Man (which means without a huge lake of water to fight with she'd go down immediately) and every defense Toph put up got blown away. When an earthbender or Tonraq tried to block P'li's blasts they got K.O.ed through their defense, which almost resulted in Lin's death. Zuko was blown off the ledge but he at least wasn't knocked out by it.

And JJ's walls are not featless. We saw him block a combined fire blast from multiple firebenders without the comet, and his huge walls under the comet were blocking multiple fire blasts from equally amped firebending tank drivers. Zhao only walked through Jeong Jeong's big wall because he directly firebent it. He did not penetrate it with a fire blast.

The only way you can argue Jeong Jeong's defenses wouldn't hold is if you try to argue that he is below Zuko in defensive firebending, which is an argument that entirely relies on Jeong Jeong's low number of showings. If that is your argument then I am not going to bother continuing this line of discussion.

Well first of all CM's power output varied based on his proximity to his opponents. Comparing the size and power of his debut explosions to his weakest one against Zuko isn't valid. Those attacks were far larger, more powerful, and had far more frightening after effects than the one CM shot at Zuko that was purposefully weak so as to not hurt himself.

Second Toph was able to block a combustion beam from CM at New Ozai with a small rock. No different than Zuko blocking his attack with his defense being destroyed.

Third Zuko unlike Tonraq and Lin didn't crash into anything after being blown back. The exact same thing that happened to Zuko happened to Kai.

Blocking attacks from fodder aren't exactly impressive. Especially when he blocked three fireballs from fodder not even streams or a combined attack from fodder. And what he did on the comet isn't relevant here. If Zhao can easily bend what JJ was bending than not sure what you think is impressive about that. P'li should be able to do that as well if Zhao could.

JJ>Zuko. I'll say that first. That being said not everything JJ does is going to be better than Zuko. His fire walls were massive but doesn't mean they were particularly potent since they were so widespread where Zuko's was very condensed. Again this doesn't mean Zuko is better at creating firewalls but that his were more appropriate for the situation. Your argument entirely relies on Zuko's defense at least absorbing CM's most weakest on screen attack even though it still got obliterated and him overwhelmed. P'li can easily adjust her combustion beams power levels just like CM and we have no idea how JJ would hold out against the more devastating ones with no feats even close useful.

@tektonic:

His attacks do vary, but both times Katara went to block one of his blasts she lost a massive water supply. There's no reason to think that if she went to block one of his weaker blasts she wouldn't lose a large chunk of water. His beams are concentrated heat after all. Toph was also a fair distance from her rock when it exploded, not right next to it like Zuko was when he got hit. Though you're right that Combustion Man fired a lot of very weak shots that people overlook.

Lin didn't crash into anything, she skidded along the ground, and while she wasn't K.O.ed she was left prone and visually afraid. Tonraq didn't hit anything either, he landed in snow and seemed to be out cold (Pun intended).

Sure, P'li could bend her way through it too. If she gets next to it and physically walks through the wall. And there's no reason he can't just make another further back to keep blocking her shots. The comet feat actually is relevant because he and the firebenders were both amped, and he demonstrated that he can create fire walls remotely which shouldn't be tied to the comet at all. It gives the user enhanced power, not entirely new abilities.

Jeong Jeong specialized in fire walls and created the largest fire barriers in the entire series by far. The one at the river was the single largest display of firebending outside the comet in the entire series. It's extremely safe to say his defense is better than Zuko's as of Book 3. The only reason we're even having this conversation is because Jeong Jeong was never given a fight scene against a legit opponent, and I personally object to the notion that we can just handwave such impressive displays and the show itself telling us he's a high tier bender just because he only appeared a few times.

P'li's long ranged blasts were blocked by both Tenzin and Kai's small wind barriers. Granted with Tenzin she was likely not going all out in fear of killing her teammates, but that same fear will be present in this battle as well. If P'li goes all out she runs the risk of killing the man she loves and the people she... Sort of tolerates?

Anyway, sorry if I came off a bit aggressive near the end. I'm just so very tired of having to get into long debates about Jeong Jeong every time I so much as suggest his defenses can hold against such and such attack.

If she uses a large amount of water to block one of his weaker attacks than it wouldn't have the same effect as when she blocked one of his largest attacks. She would definitely do better and not have her attack completely evaporated. Toph was farther from her defense but the outcome is nearly identical with combustion man's attack having almost all of it's power stopped by said defenses. Sure Zuko can say he also has the added benefit of being closer to his defense but that is pretty negligible difference overall in addition to him having something better to fall back on. Point is fire hasn't shown to be significantly better than elements like earth for example at blocking combustion beams.

The word "crashed" doesn't have to be used here. What I was trying to say was that the impact from also falling against the ground in addition to being blasted away obviously didn't help. When Kai was shot by P'li he wasn't knocked out either as he free falled a pretty large distance before crashing into a tree and getting KO'ed.

Well in the event she is somehow in front of them she can fall back on that lol. Well there is also no reason she can't keep destroying his walls. The comet feat isn't relevant in the sense it doesn't indicate how well he would do against cmbustion blasts. In non comet terms it would be Jeong Jeong blocking three flamethrowers from three fodder.

I'm not denying that Jeong Jeong is powerful or that his feat isn't great in scale. It's obviously indicative of a great firebender. That being said a lot of times potency is sacrificed for size. Ozai being a fine example with his more smaller and condensed attacks doing far more than his largest ones. Saying that constructs of those size would be equally potent is not a sure fact.

Now am I saying that Jeong Jeong couldn't do what Zuko did? Absolutely not, BUT it doesn't mean he can do it on such a large scale.

Tenzin never blocked any of P'li's blasts. He shielded himself from an indirect warning shot, and was easily sent flying by another much more powerful indirect shot. Than he was completely incapable of putting up a fight after a single direct one. Kai was easily taken out of the equation when hit with a shot as well.

And no the shot Kai took was definitely not on the scale of other shots P'li fired that day.

Examples

As you can see especially with the last image P'li does use much larger shots near her teamates if she has to but her precision is good enough as to not kill them.

Lol no it's fine I understand. I've seen many of your posts before and I already know you have a great track record.

@tektonic:

I'd argue fire is better than earth in the same way air seems to be. When your fire or air wall gets hit there isn't hard debris shooting back at your face, which is how I've always rationalized Lin and Tonraq's state in comparison to Tenzin, Kai, or Aang after blocking a blast. Aang being the best example because he stopped a significantly stronger blast. As far as the crashing, they both sort of slid back after hitting the ground. We've seen avatar characters recover from far worse falls and hits, which means it was the explosion (or their own wall debris) that did them in.

The main problem with my theory there is that we've only ever seen combustion bending blocked by fire once, but given the pretty good shape Zuko was in afterward I feel we can assume it works pretty well.

That is fair, she could keep doing that. But that is why I consider Jeong Jeong a good counter to her. The more time she spends getting around his shields the less time she's spending blasting the White Lotus. Keep in mind combustion blasts don't penetrate barriers, they explode on contact rather than drilling through. Which means even if she breaks one of his walls with a blast it still stopped the beam from continuing to it's target. I'm also not arguing he'd make a single massive wall, but rather a series of walls just big enough to stop her beam and push her back. Going back to my "the comet doesn't give new abilities" point, he should still be able to push his walls forward to keep her attention as well.

Those shots, aside from the last one, weren't in a place where her teammates were in combat range, if I am remembering right. The third one was detonated off to the side, which is why it only knocked Tenzin aside rather than K.O.ed him, which kind of proves my point about her pulling her shots around her teammates.

I can see why fire can be considered slightly better than earth and much better than water. Air seems to be the best counter with it's nimbleness and all. Though the difference between fire and earth isn't significant as it's largely the same result. The fire user could still be in a better condition but it would be hard being pushed around so much to mount an offensive.

Jeong Jeong is definitely more useful against her than Iroh and Pakku(who is kinda useless here) would be if he used this tactic. Granted P'li's attacks will keep exploding on contact but like all combustion attacks the resulting shockwave will cover a lot of lost area. Like here:

Example:

Also if he uses smaller shields while more useful in combat it will make him more susceptible to surprise attacks from curved shots since it wouldn't have to cross the same distance as the wide ones.

The first two shots are more about Kai definitely not blocking her stronger ones. The Tenzin one is a good example of power and precision. And yes she shot it to the side but still she shows herself quite mindful. As long as her allies aren't nearly that close to her target than she can hammer them with pretty nice shots.

@tektonic:

Don't forget Jeong Jeong can create a 360 fire sphere around himself too, so I don't see curved shots as being exceptionally dangerous. Her curved shots also seemed much weaker than her straight ones. A curved shot detonated a few feet in front of Mako and Bolin and only knocked them back. That fire sphere maneuver is also extremely good for stealth apparently, as he was basically able to disappear into thin air while completely surrounded.

And yah, the explosions will still happen. They just won't happen where she wants them, depending on where he places his shields. The fire walls will also be a constant annoyance in blocking her vision, and with someone like King Bumi throwing houses accuracy isn't quite as important for the White Lotus as it is the Red.

But I digress. This is a difficult battle to fully judge. I just wanted to point out that Jeong Jeong wouldn't flee ICly, and has a lot to offer his team.

@tektonic: As far as hype goes it is reasonable to assume that Iroh is >= EOS Zuko at the very least. The RL also has showings contradicting Zuko's statement, and that was after everyone on this team was dead (as far as we know).

Sure he could but he will be taken by surprise given how sudden it would be so he won't properly defend against it. The Curved shots are more useful against his smaller more condensed walls.

I believe someone posted a screen shot(Oparu?) of Mako blocking himself and Bolin with a small shield at the last second. Regardless it wasn't a direct hit. When she curved her shot again she almost killed them though Suyin saved them even though the metal was slightly dented.

The Red Lotus did the same stealth thing when they fled Zaofu. Also not applicable in combat.

That would be an annoyance for her but in the same vein as Bumi taking advantage of that one of her other teammates could fight of JJ so she doesn't have to waste time on him.

It's all about matchups. Who fights who will decide it.

With flight I think Zaheer can distract Bumi long enough for his superior teammates to win their fights. Then Bumi gets rekt 4v1.

In round 2 The Lotus win. Tenzin and Bumi can't be dealt with.

I'm not doubting that Iroh is better than Zuko. Nor that he doesn't have good hype. But neither being better than Zuko or being capable of challenging Ozai have anything to do with challenging with how he can handle P'li or Ghazan for example. Same with JJ.

Pakku has no hype and his feats are all around inferior compared to Ming Hua, nor good enough to challenge the others.

@tektonic:

Zuko's roughly in the same tier as individual RL members (except P'li). JJ has some impressive feats.

Pakku's hardly featless, a fight between him and Ming Hua could go either way, maybe with an edge to Ming Hua due to more showings. He can certainly challenge any individual RL member, and the only one I see being out of his league is P'li. His hype is that he is the master waterbender in a city of waterbenders, and being a WL grandmaster requires some level of skill. He can hold his own against anyone here, even if he can't necessarily win.

I would put Zuko a step below all the members of the red lotus not accounting for the tier level variation between the members.

It's not that Pakku is featless he has his fight with Katara and the finale. They just aren't as good as Ming Hua. She may have more showings but in each of her showings she used considerably less far more effectively than Pakku.

Desna and Eska were the rulers of the northern water tribe and the most powerful waterbenders in a far more expanded version of the northern water tribe. They have some pretty great water bending feats themselves. And they legit got stomped.

Just like being a Red Lotus Grandmaster(that's what I'll call these four since they are clearly the main ones) requires some level of skill.

Zuko is easily in the same tier as anyone in the RL. He is a tier above Zaheer but he is a good bit below Ming and P'Li, a step below Ghazan imo.

Pakku is not going down easily, he can give Ming Hua a fight it's just that he doesn't win. I'd say he can beat Ghazan and maybe P'Li. He can stomp Zaheer.

TBF, Ming Hua is pretty much a great tool if you want to blitz someone :P

Pakku was named one of the most powerful waterbending masters in the world in Book 1. Ming Hua's hype is just as good. And generally, hype in the Avatarverse is awful and vague.

Bit confused here. You said that he was in the same tier but than put him quite below everyone but Zaheer.

Easily could be an over exaggeration but I find him significantly outclassed by Ming Hua and unequipped to deal with the other members specialized bending abilities.

True.

Yes they both have hype as do others.

@tektonic: Maybe you are confusing me with mial lol You guys were disscusing this and I came in like that. IMO, Zaheer is a tier below the rest of the Red Lotus and Zuko. Zuko is on the same tier as Ghazan, Ming or P'Li. However, he is a step below Ghazan and a good bit below P'Li and Ming Hua. Overall, Id personally say: Ming Hua > P'Li > Ghazan > Zuko >> Zaheer.

Assuming he's around Eos Katara level, Id say otherwise.

Did I? Hm.

I would switch around the 3 members before Zuko but I do agree with them being superior to him though I would say it's enough to separate there tiers. And Zaheer is kinda underrated but more on that another time.

@anthp2000: Pakku fought sozin comet enhanced fire benders

Large water spout exploded it to hit multiple firebenders and threw ice bullets

And only waterbender who sliced steel tanks

Iroh and Jeong Jeong are the strongest firebenders under Ozai

Jeong Jeong isn't fleeing he's fighting like he did during sozin comet

@tektonic: @anthp2000: Pakku fought sozin comet enhanced fire benders

Large water spout exploded it to hit multiple firebenders and threw ice bullets the only firebender who did this go rewatch the seige of the North

Avatar creators said greatest waterbender in his era Katara surpassed him later in life when she had kids like at age 25-30.

And only waterbender who sliced steel tanks

Iroh and Jeong Jeong are the strongest firebenders under Ozai

Jeong Jeong isn't fleeing he's fighting like he did during sozin comet

I want to say White Lotus. None of the Red Lotus have a solid counter to Lightning Generation, and Iroh is more adept at its usage that Mako. The sheer amount of Rock that Bumi can produce provides a good defense against P'Li and Ghazan's Lava bending can be countered somewhat by Water Bending and Airbending. Also Ghazan kinda sucks at close combat, given how he struggled to take down Bumi who was really a beginner Airbender at the time.

I find the Red lotus quite overrated on comic vine but they still win because of being far more versatile

Red Lotus win due to superior skill and versatility

Bumi does what Tenzin did. Everyone else gang up on P'li.

WL take it easier in round 2.

I'd side with the White Lotus as they don't really have an answer for Bumi. The second round they have too much power with Tenzin thrown in on their team.

Jeong jeong's fire shields should be able to block pli's blasts seeing how zuko was able to. Bumi's raw power and AOE attacks would be enough to cover Ghazan and make Ming hua's life difficult. Zaheer would go down to anyone here except possibly pakku, and piando. Add in iroh and pakku to pick up any slack and white lotus take on difficult fight.

White Lotus.

The team with the best avatar character in it.

@anthp2000: Did you forget about Master Pakku slicing steel tanks and water spout

And iroh lightning

@tektonic: your bias asf you aren't counting his full moon feats....You are a Ming Hua fan if you don't count his full moon feats he doesn't have feats duh you bias prick....