The Prime Superman vs Phoenix of the White Crown

Battle of the titans.

Phoenix.RIDICULOUS OVERKILL.One though..no more Supes.

phoenix

Phoenix 

Phoenix in a big way.

"Phoenix in a big way."

phoenix easily

"Phoenix easily
"

"Phoenix in a big way."

"Phoenix "

"phoenix"

"Phoenix.RIDICULOUS OVERKILL.One though..no more Supes."

Alright. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I thought this was a good battle. I don't think any character could easily beat the Prime superman unless it was the Presence or One above all. Both PS and WCP are omnipotent characters and no one is chiming in for ol supes. Where is Man of yesteryear when I need him?

"Alright. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I thought this was a good battle. I don't think any character could easily beat the Prime superman unless it was the Presence or One above all. Both PS and WCP are omnipotent characters and no one is chiming in for ol supes. Where is Man of yesteryear when I need him?"

You do know that i am talking about prime superman from dc 1 million. Right?

And I have heard that prime superman is second only to the presence.

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix... dont know about easy though
"

you honestly don't know how easy it would be for WPC to beat any version of Superman?  Your kidding right?  She could start by his amputating his entire reality and undoing it."

"The Man of Tomorrow said:

"Alright. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I thought this was a good battle. I don't think any character could easily beat the Prime superman unless it was the Presence or One above all. Both PS and WCP are omnipotent characters and no one is chiming in for ol supes. Where is Man of yesteryear when I need him?"

Prime Superman is not omnipotent, He has wast power and could match many cosmic entities pound for pound, but nowhere did it ever say he's omnipotent, or nigh-omnipotent. Phoenix is a force second only to living tribunal, that is way beyond prime superman."

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix... dont know about easy though
"

you honestly don't know how easy it would be for WPC to beat any version of Superman?  Your kidding right?  She could start by his amputating his entire reality and undoing it."

The Prime Superman was a high scale Reality Warper too dude... I think you are underestimating his power..."

Scarlet Witch is a high scale reality warper and caused near omniversal destruction, yet the only place that was beyond her power was the White Hot Room.  He is afraid of the dark and weakened by red sun light, the Phoenix is the power that fuels the stars, if MM can get into his head she would have no problem.  You can warp all the reality you'd like, but if it is in my power to exist outside of reality and do with it as I please from that vantage point I don't see any of his power being effective."

Scarlet witch caused omniversal destruction??? When?

I'd give the win to Phoenix.
Superman Prime was shown to have a limit. When Atom 1000000's reality was destroyed by a dimensional collapse, it happened so fast even he couldn't stop it.
I don't think this would be a complete curbstomp, but that might just be my fanboyism lol.

"Scarlet witch caused omniversal destruction??? When?"

"AtPhantom said:

"Scarlet witch caused omniversal destruction??? When?"

King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix... dont know about easy though
"

you honestly don't know how easy it would be for WPC to beat any version of Superman?  Your kidding right?  She could start by his amputating his entire reality and undoing it."

The Prime Superman was a high scale Reality Warper too dude... I think you are underestimating his power..."

Scarlet Witch is a high scale reality warper and caused near omniversal destruction, yet the only place that was beyond her power was the White Hot Room.  He is afraid of the dark and weakened by red sun light, the Phoenix is the power that fuels the stars, if MM can get into his head she would have no problem.  You can warp all the reality you'd like, but if it is in my power to exist outside of reality and do with it as I please from that vantage point I don't see any of his power being effective."

Superman Prime One Million is an Omnipotent Being that can alter Reality on a Universal or Multiversal Scale... only The Presence was stated to be more powerful that he is in the DC Universe... and even if he was weak to Red Sunlight which I am not sure of... if he can Warp Realiy of a Universal Scale he could turn Red Sun Radiation to Yellow Sun Radiation easy... so it would not effect him... and comparing Superman Prime One Million to the Scarlet Witch is a Joke... he is far stronger than her... she doesnt have any Multiversal Scale Power... but this version of Superman does... "

The carelessness of her reality warps tore a whole in the walls of causality creating the chaos wave which tore through the omniverse.  It's not a feat per say but it was used to illustrate that white hot room was unaffected by the a reality shatter tsunami, the white room is not simply a dimension it is the heart of the Phoenix and a part of it, that which can withstand the power of something that was shattering the "omniverse" (and was caused by reality manipulation) can withstand any amount of reality manipulation.  The very presence of the Phoenix without a host will drain the infintie amount of energy preserved for future generations denying them existence, 68'0000 years worth of sunlight shouldn't be a problem for her drain if she wanted."

i think normal phoenix can beat normal superman so why cant power gamed phoenix be able to beat power gamed superman.

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"AtPhantom said:

"Scarlet witch caused omniversal destruction??? When?"

King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix... dont know about easy though
"

you honestly don't know how easy it would be for WPC to beat any version of Superman?  Your kidding right?  She could start by his amputating his entire reality and undoing it."

The Prime Superman was a high scale Reality Warper too dude... I think you are underestimating his power..."

Scarlet Witch is a high scale reality warper and caused near omniversal destruction, yet the only place that was beyond her power was the White Hot Room.  He is afraid of the dark and weakened by red sun light, the Phoenix is the power that fuels the stars, if MM can get into his head she would have no problem.  You can warp all the reality you'd like, but if it is in my power to exist outside of reality and do with it as I please from that vantage point I don't see any of his power being effective."

Superman Prime One Million is an Omnipotent Being that can alter Reality on a Universal or Multiversal Scale... only The Presence was stated to be more powerful that he is in the DC Universe... and even if he was weak to Red Sunlight which I am not sure of... if he can Warp Realiy of a Universal Scale he could turn Red Sun Radiation to Yellow Sun Radiation easy... so it would not effect him... and comparing Superman Prime One Million to the Scarlet Witch is a Joke... he is far stronger than her... she doesnt have any Multiversal Scale Power... but this version of Superman does... "

The carelessness of her reality warps tore a whole in the walls of causality creating the chaos wave which tore through the omniverse.  It's not a feat per say but it was used to illustrate that white hot room was unaffected by the a reality shatter tsunami, the white room is not simply a dimension it is the heart of the Phoenix and a part of it, that which can withstand the power of something that was shattering the "omniverse" (and was caused by reality manipulation) can withstand any amount of reality manipulation.  The very presence of the Phoenix without a host will drain the infintie amount of energy preserved for future generations denying them existence, 68'0000 years worth of sunlight shouldn't be a problem for her drain if she wanted."

But you dont know.. you are simply assuming it will be easy... on a basis of what she did against a weaker being than Superman Prime One Million... this guy is supposed to be at least as powerful as The Spectre if not higher in Power..."

The being that you claim to be weaker than SMP, is not the point, the point is that the heart of the Phoenix went untouched by an omniversal tsunami, Wandas power is what caused the holes in the walls of causality, the outpour built to an intensity that was beyond her power and causing omniversal destruction, you saying he is more powerful than a being who only had a part in the creation of the chaos wave takes nothing away from it being a force strong enough to destroy the omniverse or the fact that it did not effect the heart of the Phoenix, the Spectre is not an omniversal threat, the chaos wave was.  So like I said no amount of reality warping will help against a being that can withstand a force that was destroying the omniverse.  what would he warp reality into?  She can go outside of reality and undo it, she can burn away his false reality to what lies beneath.  what ever power he has must operate within reality, she works from outside of reality."

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"But you dont know.. you are simply assuming it will be easy... on a basis of what she did against a weaker being than Superman Prime One Million... this guy is supposed to be at least as powerful as The Spectre if not higher in Power..."

The being that you claim to be weaker than SMP, is not the point, the point is that the heart of the Phoenix went untouched by an omniversal tsunami, Wandas power is what caused the holes in the walls of causality, the outpour built to an intensity that was beyond her power and causing omniversal destruction, you saying he is more powerful than a being who only had a part in the creation of the chaos wave takes nothing away from it being a force strong enough to destroy the omniverse or the fact that it did not effect the heart of the Phoenix, the Spectre is not an omniversal threat, the chaos wave was.  So like I said no amount of reality warping will help against a being that can withstand a force that was destroying the omniverse.  what would he warp reality into?  She can go outside of reality and undo it, she can burn away his false reality to what lies beneath.  what ever power he has must operate within reality, she works from outside of reality."

And why cant Prime Superman attack Jean herself with the Reality Warping power ? How is that so hard to see... being the fact that his power is Multiversal ? "

WPC is Jean fully bonded with the Phoenix Force, at this stage there is no seperation of the two, why is that so hard to see?  The power of the first Phoenix incarnation was multiversal at beat and said to be second only to the creator, in it's current form (White) it has shown greater feats than it did then."

Phoenix. Stomp.

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"But you dont know.. you are simply assuming it will be easy... on a basis of what she did against a weaker being than Superman Prime One Million... this guy is supposed to be at least as powerful as The Spectre if not higher in Power..."

The being that you claim to be weaker than SMP, is not the point, the point is that the heart of the Phoenix went untouched by an omniversal tsunami, Wandas power is what caused the holes in the walls of causality, the outpour built to an intensity that was beyond her power and causing omniversal destruction, you saying he is more powerful than a being who only had a part in the creation of the chaos wave takes nothing away from it being a force strong enough to destroy the omniverse or the fact that it did not effect the heart of the Phoenix, the Spectre is not an omniversal threat, the chaos wave was.  So like I said no amount of reality warping will help against a being that can withstand a force that was destroying the omniverse.  what would he warp reality into?  She can go outside of reality and undo it, she can burn away his false reality to what lies beneath.  what ever power he has must operate within reality, she works from outside of reality."

And why cant Prime Superman attack Jean herself with the Reality Warping power ? How is that so hard to see... being the fact that his power is Multiversal ? "

WPC is Jean fully bonded with the Phoenix Force, at this stage there is no seperation of the two, why is that so hard to see?  The power of the first Phoenix incarnation was multiversal at beat and said to be second only to the creator, in it's current form (White) it has shown greater feats than it did then."

Fully Bonded... If you can prove this maybe you have something here... but so far nothing you have said makes this fight a Curbstomp... not with what Prime Superman is capable of himself"

The proof of them being fully bonded is in Endsong, when a rogue piece of the Phoenix takes up residence in Emma Frost, a newly resurrected Jean Grey has the power to not only stun but to forcibly remove the piece from Emma, the confused piece says that Jean should not have been able to do that without the power of the Phoenix and Jean responds I am you.  At the end White Phoenix is asked by Cyclops who are you? it says that it is Phoenix and Jean Grey.  Jean Grey is and always has been the avatar (physical incarnation of Phoenix) in WCT she excepts this and becomes one with the Phoenix, after the suicide of Dark Phoenix, Death has a talk with Phoenix (after the retcon we know that was the Phoenix Force) in Xmen forever Jean relives that moment with Death saying this was the second time he had to talk to her about the same thing, showing that even the abstracts see no distinction between the two."

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"But you dont know.. you are simply assuming it will be easy... on a basis of what she did against a weaker being than Superman Prime One Million... this guy is supposed to be at least as powerful as The Spectre if not higher in Power..."

The being that you claim to be weaker than SMP, is not the point, the point is that the heart of the Phoenix went untouched by an omniversal tsunami, Wandas power is what caused the holes in the walls of causality, the outpour built to an intensity that was beyond her power and causing omniversal destruction, you saying he is more powerful than a being who only had a part in the creation of the chaos wave takes nothing away from it being a force strong enough to destroy the omniverse or the fact that it did not effect the heart of the Phoenix, the Spectre is not an omniversal threat, the chaos wave was.  So like I said no amount of reality warping will help against a being that can withstand a force that was destroying the omniverse.  what would he warp reality into?  She can go outside of reality and undo it, she can burn away his false reality to what lies beneath.  what ever power he has must operate within reality, she works from outside of reality."

And why cant Prime Superman attack Jean herself with the Reality Warping power ? How is that so hard to see... being the fact that his power is Multiversal ? "

WPC is Jean fully bonded with the Phoenix Force, at this stage there is no seperation of the two, why is that so hard to see?  The power of the first Phoenix incarnation was multiversal at beat and said to be second only to the creator, in it's current form (White) it has shown greater feats than it did then."

Fully Bonded... If you can prove this maybe you have something here... but so far nothing you have said makes this fight a Curbstomp... not with what Prime Superman is capable of himself...and you have taken the debate out of context by making it seem like I am saying Prime Superman would win... when I have not... I just dont see a Curbstomp here... and also... even if Jean was Bonded to the Phoenix Force... how do you know he could not effect it ?
"

Can he create an omniversal wave of destruction, actually can he create a wave of destruction greater than an omniversal wave of destruction?  if he can't then that's how I know he can't effect it, that and no other being has been able to."

White Crown Phoenix is multiversal, almost on par with the Living Tribunal. Reality manipulation isn't really useful against a being that sits outside reality and who can basically strip the life of everything in the multiverse.

"White Crown Phoenix is multiversal, almost on par with the Living Tribunal. Reality manipulation isn't really useful against a being that sits outside reality and whocan basically strip the life of everything in the multiverse."

Reality warping isn't all he could do. PR-Beyonder was an f'ing retardedly powerful being. I think he even punked the Tribunal. But that's irrelevant since Prime-Supes doesn't even compare.

"Reality warping isn't all he could do. PR-Beyonder was an f'ing retardedly powerful being. I think he even punked the Tribunal. But that's irrelevant since Prime-Supes doesn't even compare."

"King Saturn said:

"Rei-Kai said:

"White Crown Phoenix is multiversal, almost on par with the Living Tribunal. Reality manipulation isn't really useful against a being that sits outside reality and whocan basically strip the life of everything in the multiverse."

Okay... lets say that White Phoenix was fighting Pre Retcon Beyonder... if Beyonder cant use Reality Warping power... how would he be able to defeat White Phoenix... if Reality Warping is useless against her ? "

There is nothing in the books that says he can, even pre-retcon was said the be the totality of his universe, WCP has been shown on panel to hold those just as casually as you hold any hand held object. "

"Even Meggan can claim the power from beyond as her own, it's what she used to halt the chaos wave."

"King Saturn said:

"Rei-Kai said:

"Reality warping isn't all he could do. PR-Beyonder was an f'ing retardedly powerful being. I think he even punked the Tribunal. But that's irrelevant since Prime-Supes doesn't even compare."

But the Powers that Beyonder used were Reality Warping Based... I mean how do you destroy Universes with ease without using a Reality Warping based attack ? Reality Manipulation is basically the power to do anything cause you can effect Time, Matter, Space, Energy, Logic, etc. So if Beyonder wasnt using Reality Manipulation what the hell was he using to perform all these feats ? And its not irrelevant simply because there is no other type of power that you could use to destroy the White Phoenix... and since Prime Superman is one of the most powerful Reality Warpers in the DCU... he should have a shot to at least stand against her for a while



Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Rei-Kai said:

"White Crown Phoenix is multiversal, almost on par with the Living Tribunal. Reality manipulation isn't really useful against a being that sits outside reality and whocan basically strip the life of everything in the multiverse."

Okay... lets say that White Phoenix was fighting Pre Retcon Beyonder... if Beyonder cant use Reality Warping power... how would he be able to defeat White Phoenix... if Reality Warping is useless against her ? "

There is nothing in the books that says he can, even pre-retcon was said the be the totality of his universe, WCP has been shown on panel to hold those just as casually as you hold any hand held object. "

Okay... lets dig a little deeper then... if White Phoenix was fighting The Presence himself in battle... how would The Presence be able to destroy her outside of using  Reality Manipulation power ? Think about it... if White Phoenix is basically the embodiement of Creation and Destruction itself... what power could he use to destroy her outside of Reality Warping ? "

You tell me, how do you get rid of creation, you destroy, how do undo destruction, you create, either way you are perpetuating the Phoenix cycle, Death seemed to give Phoenix the only solution to it's existence on the mortal plane at least, and that was for the Phoenix to willingly give it's self to death, would that have ended the Force or just that particular manifestation is anybodys guess.  Any being that is classified as second only to the creator has only that creator to answer to."

phoenix

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Rei-Kai said:

"Reality warping isn't all he could do. PR-Beyonder was an f'ing retardedly powerful being. I think he even punked the Tribunal. But that's irrelevant since Prime-Supes doesn't even compare."

But the Powers that Beyonder used were Reality Warping Based... I mean how do you destroy Universes with ease without using a Reality Warping based attack ? Reality Manipulation is basically the power to do anything cause you can effect Time, Matter, Space, Energy, Logic, etc. So if Beyonder wasnt using Reality Manipulation what the hell was he using to perform all these feats ? And its not irrelevant simply because there is no other type of power that you could use to destroy the White Phoenix... and since Prime Superman is one of the most powerful Reality Warpers in the DCU... he should have a shot to at least stand against her for a while



Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Rei-Kai said:

"White Crown Phoenix is multiversal, almost on par with the Living Tribunal. Reality manipulation isn't really useful against a being that sits outside reality and whocan basically strip the life of everything in the multiverse."

Okay... lets say that White Phoenix was fighting Pre Retcon Beyonder... if Beyonder cant use Reality Warping power... how would he be able to defeat White Phoenix... if Reality Warping is useless against her ? "

There is nothing in the books that says he can, even pre-retcon was said the be the totality of his universe, WCP has been shown on panel to hold those just as casually as you hold any hand held object. "

Okay... lets dig a little deeper then... if White Phoenix was fighting The Presence himself in battle... how would The Presence be able to destroy her outside of using  Reality Manipulation power ? Think about it... if White Phoenix is basically the embodiement of Creation and Destruction itself... what power could he use to destroy her outside of Reality Warping ? "

You tell me, how do you get rid of creation, you destroy, how do undo destruction, you create, either way you are perpetuating the Phoenix cycle, Death seemed to give Phoenix the only solution to it's existence on the mortal plane at least, and that was for the Phoenix to willingly give it's self to death, would that have ended the Force or just that particular manifestation is anybodys guess.  Any being that is classified as second only to the creator has only that creator to answer to."

Okay here it is... Reality Warping is the only answer... because there is no Ability thats greater than it in Essence... the only difference is the SCALE of the Warper itself. Here is a Perfect Example... The Mask is a Reality Warper.. he can do whatever he wants on a Planetary Scale ( create objects out of thin air, mainpulate the very physics and logic of The Earth itself )... where as the Phoenix is also a Reality Warper but can effect things on an Omniversal Scale ( destroy Universes or Multiverses with ease )... but the ability itself is still the same... its just the scale its being used at is different with the respected characters...the only way she would be beaten is by some form of Reality Warping attack... because she consumes everything that Reality is based upon itself...
"

which brings your scale back into the equation can SMP warp enough reality to destroy the omniverse and beyond?  The Chaos wave was certainly destroying the omniverse but could not reach beyond which was the White Hot Room, which is the heart of the Phoenix, Jean Grey as WPC is fully bonded with the Phoenix Force all the energy that makes up the White Hot Room is a part of Phoenix as evidenced by Vulcan be able to sense this and tap the entire Phoenix force simply by drawing power from the White Hot Room."

"And I have heard that prime superman is second only to the presence."

There's nothing much of Prime Superman from the sun to suggest much of his powers or feats (next to none, outside of needing/using the last GL ring to help defeat Solaris!

"lordraiden said:

There's nothing much of Prime Superman from the sun to suggest much of his powers or feats (next to none, outside of needing/using the last GL ring to help defeat Solaris!

That's not his only feat.
He created life, and he is seen at the universal gates preserving reality (although he couldn't stop a dimensional collapse because it happened so fast).

But Phoenix wins."

"
Then it's safer to say he can't, I have only given examples of the amount of power Phoenix can withstand, you can't even settle on him being multiversal or omniversal, because you have no proof and all the speculation comes from not some open ended story but from fans guessing.  Like it was said before if regular Phoenix can obliterate regular superman, then what makes you think that Superman Prime has a chance againt Phoenix "Prime"? other than reality warping which has been dealt with."

"King Saturn said:

"But as I said earlier White Pheonix wins... I am still tipsy on how easy it would be though... I dont know about all this she blinks and he dies stuff...
"

well that's how easy it was for her to remove and erase an entire timeline, she realized her purpose and in an instant she was standing in the white hot room disinfecting the mega system by removing sublime and then the orphaned universe that was amputated in the process, with the same ease she reached back in time at a point before the orphan universe took place and rebuilt another more viable future to take it's place.  Within that universe existed every future version of every cosmic being in marvel yet there was not the slightest resistence when all they knew was being undone, yet when there is somebody playing with the universe from within the universe a bunch of them will come together to prevent it, which further supports that the Phoenix is beyond the scope of any being claiming to be omnipotent, when that omnipotence is based on working within the reality that they warp."

"Phoenix "

"

By this logic all his power would be just as useless, so the only way for him to win is for her to not be able to use all the power at her disposal?  She exists oustide of the Marvel omniverse, he within a multiverse, she would still be able to operate outside of the normal strictures of space and time that he would be bound by no matter what multiverse he was in. 

"

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"

By this logic all his power would be just as useless, so the only way for him to win is for her to not be able to use all the power at her disposal?  She exists oustide of the Marvel omniverse, he within a multiverse, she would still be able to operate outside of the normal strictures of space and time that he would be bound by no matter what multiverse he was in. 

"

No Sir... I mean I dont think she could effect him the way she does the Cosmic Beings of the Marvel Universe... simply because the Actualities are different... and who says he cant exist outside of the Multiverse ? 5th Dimensional Imps have existed outside of there Realities before... and they are leaps and bounds weaker than Prime Superman... so how is it such a far fetched idea he couldnt do the same ? I still think he could hold her off for a while... "

they don't exist outside of their multverse only there respective dimension which is merely a layer of the reality that represents their universe, you said he existed in the DC multiverse, a multiverse is a collection of universes they are bound by the laws that bind them all together as a multiverse, the Phoenix resides in the space that is beyond such laws, even a reality warper cannot warp what is not there, yet the Phoenix can cause the birth of a universe from nothing.  What do you think he would be able to do with reality alteration that would effect her, her mutant daughter can see through reality warps that can only be seen through from outside, the Phoenix burning away what doesn't work and what is not needed is a given and is automatic, false realities fall into that category.  How much reality do you think he can warp, she is the sum of all life and psionic energy that is was and will be in at least the marvel omniverse, this lone alien would do what exactly to all this power? it would overwhelm him just like it would overwhelm anybody else.  He can't drain it, he can't contain it, he can't destroy it, so what would he do?  you say he would be able to hold her off for a while, doing what?"

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"

By this logic all his power would be just as useless, so the only way for him to win is for her to not be able to use all the power at her disposal?  She exists oustide of the Marvel omniverse, he within a multiverse, she would still be able to operate outside of the normal strictures of space and time that he would be bound by no matter what multiverse he was in. 

"

No Sir... I mean I dont think she could effect him the way she does the Cosmic Beings of the Marvel Universe... simply because the Actualities are different... and who says he cant exist outside of the Multiverse ? 5th Dimensional Imps have existed outside of there Realities before... and they are leaps and bounds weaker than Prime Superman... so how is it such a far fetched idea he couldnt do the same ? I still think he could hold her off for a while... "

they don't exist outside of their multverse only there respective dimension which is merely a layer of the reality that represents their universe, you said he existed in the DC multiverse, a multiverse is a collection of universes they are bound by the laws that bind them all together as a multiverse, the Phoenix resides in the space that is beyond such laws, even a reality warper cannot warp what is not there, yet the Phoenix can cause the birth of a universe from nothing.  What do you think he would be able to do with reality alteration that would effect her, her mutant daughter can see through reality warps that can only be seen through from outside, the Phoenix burning away what doesn't work and what is not needed is a given and is automatic, false realities fall into that category.  How much reality do you think he can warp, she is the sum of all life and psionic energy that is was and will be in at least the marvel omniverse, this lone alien would do what exactly to all this power? it would overwhelm him just like it would overwhelm anybody else.  He can't drain it, he can't contain it, he can't destroy it, so what would he do?  you say he would be able to hold her off for a while, doing what?"

5th Dimensional Imps can exist outside of Reality... its happened before. And like I said its possible Prime Superman could do the same because the 5D Imps are much weaker than he is and can accomplish the feat... he doesnt have to destroy or contain her power... he could use his Large Scale Warping powers to restart the Reality that they are in... to slow her up... cause weaker beings within the DCU have done this feat... there is no reason to say someone who is more powerful could not do this same feat on a larger scale... it may not stop her... but it could slow her up...


"

So you mean to tell me 5th dimensional imps have gone beyond the spatial coordinates of their multiverse?  Restart what reality they are in?  Why would it have stopped?  and if that did happen (whatever it means) why would it slow her up.  Are you suggesting that he could wrest control of a reailty in which every atom is under her telekinetic control?  So then a guy who hasn't even had a million years to develope would be able to win in a battel of wills with the nexus of all psionic energy?  A will so strong that it can telelpathically alter time, while having complete telekinetic control of every individual atom of an entire univerese?  I still need you to tell me what could he do to slow her down, time manipulation? energy blasts? reality alteration of what?  The place beyond the omniverse that she operates from is  the white hot room and as I explained to you before it is a part of her and and an extension of her power, a power she has complete control over so what do you think happens to people who enter this space and try to fight the Phoenix?  Now lets move this battle to the void between realms, can he even survive there? If he can what reality would he have to warp?  He is a reality warper not a reality creator so in effect he would be relieved of the biggest weapon you have placed in his arsenal, yet the Phoenix is creation and a self sustaining energy source, her power so great that it will consume all reality and then their will be what? that's right the void and from the void she will bring about the next ad infinitum.  What this means is that Phoenix can create matter and energy as well as destroy it, he can only manipulate pre-existing forms of matter and energy and nowhere on the scale of a being whose sole purpose is to take nothing and make something only to make it nothing again and start over throughout at least an omniverse.


"

Wow, you two still going at it :-)

"Large scale reality warpers can create and destroy reality within the void? somebody ought to tell MJJ that because he is powerless in the void with no reality to warp.  The Phoenix could erase him in the void or anything other plane or non-plane because it is in her nature to do so, she does not destroy or create as part of some application of a superpower she is creation and destruction, he would be powerless and she would be just powerful as she ever was, if she can create something from the nothingness of the void it's safe to say that she can return something that his created to the same nothingness from which it sprang.  How would him destroying a reality they were fighting in make it harder for her to fight when she can create from nothingness?   only a force of pure creation would be able to do anything viable in such a space, reality warpers need reality to warp there is none in these voids.  the power of reality warpers are absolute within a viable reality, take away reality and you have no warping of it, surving in the void (the beyond) outside of reality does not mean one is beyond destruction, Meggan functioned quite well in it, as did MJJ (albeit he was powerless) neither of them possesse the durability of normal superman, Now withiout reality to warp, (since you think that power would make a difference to a being that can undo reality warps with relative ease) he's now a super charged superman without a power source to keep him supercharged, she is still Phoenix of the White crown.  He his disposed of just as easily was she disposed of a whole timeline, there is nothing left of that timeline, it was removed and is gone, he'd  fare no better."

"Phoenix easily
"

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"Large scale reality warpers can create and destroy reality within the void? somebody ought to tell MJJ that because he is powerless in the void with no reality to warp.  The Phoenix could erase him in the void or anything other plane or non-plane because it is in her nature to do so, she does not destroy or create as part of some application of a superpower she is creation and destruction, he would be powerless and she would be just powerful as she ever was, if she can create something from the nothingness of the void it's safe to say that she can return something that his created to the same nothingness from which it sprang.  How would him destroying a reality they were fighting in make it harder for her to fight when she can create from nothingness?   only a force of pure creation would be able to do anything viable in such a space, reality warpers need reality to warp there is none in these voids.  the power of reality warpers are absolute within a viable reality, take away reality and you have no warping of it, surving in the void (the beyond) outside of reality does not mean one is beyond destruction, Meggan functioned quite well in it, as did MJJ (albeit he was powerless) neither of them possesse the durability of normal superman, Now withiout reality to warp, (since you think that power would make a difference to a being that can undo reality warps with relative ease) he's now a super charged superman without a power source to keep him supercharged, she is still Phoenix of the White crown.  He his disposed of just as easily was she disposed of a whole timeline, there is nothing left of that timeline, it was removed and is gone, he'd  fare no better."

Mad Jim Jaspers power was restricted to reality itself though... Jaspers is not Top Tier as Prime Superman is... and who is to say Prime Superman would powerless in The Void or any other Plane ? He is one of the strongest beings within his Actuality outside of The Presence itself... and if you are a Large Scale Warper you dont need a Reality To Warp... do you think Man of Miracles or Pre Retcon Beyonder need an actual Reality to create Reality itself ? Now granted I dont think Prime Superman is as powerful as they are... but if he could exist outside of Reality itself... its possible he could have power outside of Reality as well... the problem with your statement is everyone you have named with power Mad Jim Japsers and Meggan who both can exist outside of Reality Itself are not like Prime Superman... neither one of them are regarded as Top Tier beings of their actualities...but both Prime Superman and White Phoenix are... and I dont know why you are pressing this issue so hard... no one has said that Prime Superman would win... but just because I think in theory he could stand up to her for a while you wanna go through all this ? Everything I have stated about Prime Superman is based on what powers he was stated to have... I cant go into great detail about what he would do against her... because we have only seen him in action a couple of times... but I can surmise from what I have seen other beings in the DC Actuality do to make a case for him surviving a while..."

whatever, to say he would stand a chance and be able to hold her off is saying that he is at least on par with her power, I don't believe he is.  if you can believe he can withstand her for a while then what stops that from becoming indefinite, at what point will she be able to get rid of him?  Why would the power she can use to destroy him not be effective as soon as she uses it rather than after he gives her a go?  MJJ is regarded as top tier in the reality warping department as far as marvel goes.  What proof do you have that Pre-retcon beyonder can warp reality within the void?  MM, who has power from the Beyonder cannot use his powers if he is trapped in a forcefield that allowes no molecules, even with a fraction of the power from the beyonder he is still regarded as one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse and even he cannot use his powers when there is nothing to use them on.  MoM is a creator god these sorts of beings make something out of nothing all the time, you say that SMP is not on their level so they are bad examples to use when trying to prove a point for SMP.  Whose to say he would be powerless in the void?  I'm to say because he his not God or even remotely God therefore in order to warp reality when you are not a transcendent being but just a very powerful physical being you need reality to warp, so I guess if he were a powerful telepath he would be able to prove that he was even with no minds to work on?"

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"King Saturn said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"Large scale reality warpers can create and destroy reality within the void? somebody ought to tell MJJ that because he is powerless in the void with no reality to warp.  The Phoenix could erase him in the void or anything other plane or non-plane because it is in her nature to do so, she does not destroy or create as part of some application of a superpower she is creation and destruction, he would be powerless and she would be just powerful as she ever was, if she can create something from the nothingness of the void it's safe to say that she can return something that his created to the same nothingness from which it sprang.  How would him destroying a reality they were fighting in make it harder for her to fight when she can create from nothingness?   only a force of pure creation would be able to do anything viable in such a space, reality warpers need reality to warp there is none in these voids.  the power of reality warpers are absolute within a viable reality, take away reality and you have no warping of it, surving in the void (the beyond) outside of reality does not mean one is beyond destruction, Meggan functioned quite well in it, as did MJJ (albeit he was powerless) neither of them possesse the durability of normal superman, Now withiout reality to warp, (since you think that power would make a difference to a being that can undo reality warps with relative ease) he's now a super charged superman without a power source to keep him supercharged, she is still Phoenix of the White crown.  He his disposed of just as easily was she disposed of a whole timeline, there is nothing left of that timeline, it was removed and is gone, he'd  fare no better."

Mad Jim Jaspers power was restricted to reality itself though... Jaspers is not Top Tier as Prime Superman is... and who is to say Prime Superman would powerless in The Void or any other Plane ? He is one of the strongest beings within his Actuality outside of The Presence itself... and if you are a Large Scale Warper you dont need a Reality To Warp... do you think Man of Miracles or Pre Retcon Beyonder need an actual Reality to create Reality itself ? Now granted I dont think Prime Superman is as powerful as they are... but if he could exist outside of Reality itself... its possible he could have power outside of Reality as well... the problem with your statement is everyone you have named with power Mad Jim Japsers and Meggan who both can exist outside of Reality Itself are not like Prime Superman... neither one of them are regarded as Top Tier beings of their actualities...but both Prime Superman and White Phoenix are... and I dont know why you are pressing this issue so hard... no one has said that Prime Superman would win... but just because I think in theory he could stand up to her for a while you wanna go through all this ? Everything I have stated about Prime Superman is based on what powers he was stated to have... I cant go into great detail about what he would do against her... because we have only seen him in action a couple of times... but I can surmise from what I have seen other beings in the DC Actuality do to make a case for him surviving a while..."

whatever, to say he would stand a chance and be able to hold her off is saying that he is at least on par with her power, I don't believe he is.  if you can believe he can withstand her for a while then what stops that from becoming indefinite, at what point will she be able to get rid of him?  Why would the power she can use to destroy him not be effective as soon as she uses it rather than after he gives her a go?  MJJ is regarded as top tier in the reality warping department as far as marvel goes.  What proof do you have that Pre-retcon beyonder can warp reality within the void?  MM, who has power from the Beyonder cannot use his powers if he is trapped in a forcefield that allowes no molecules, even with a fraction of the power from the beyonder he is still regarded as one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse and even he cannot use his powers when there is nothing to use them on.  MoM is a creator god these sorts of beings make something out of nothing all the time, you say that SMP is not on their level so they are bad examples to use when trying to prove a point for SMP.  Whose to say he would be powerless in the void?  I'm to say because he his not God or even remotely God therefore in order to warp reality when you are not a transcendent being but just a very powerful physical being you need reality to warp, so I guess if he were a powerful telepath he would be able to prove that he was even with no minds to work on?"

My God... you are back again huh ? Well here we go again I guess then... Just because you can hold someone off for a while doesnt mean you are on par with that suggested person... Shazam the Wizard and Nabu held off The Spectre for a while... and neither one of them are on par with The Spectre... and I never said that she couldnt get rid of him... I just think he could make the fight more interesting that you think... and as I have said before Mad Jim Jaspers is not Top Tier when it comes to Marvel Cosmic Entities... sure he is one of the best Reality Warpers when it comes to Mutants... but like I said Power Scales mean everything here... and I can easily see Pre Retcon Beyonder warping reality within The Void because he was basically TOAA... Man of Miracles was just an example I was using to show that some beings can create and alter Reality outside of Reality itself... and even though Prime Superman may not be as powerful as MoM... its not to say he couldnt hold his ground for a while... not based on what Prime Superman is supposed to be and what he is supposed to be capable of... he basically is God in a sense... and when did I say Prime Superman would win ? I said I dont believe it will be a Curbstomp... and I still dont see it being just a blink and then Prime Superman is dead... "

i never said you said he would win, I'm aware that you know Phoenix would win, I don't think it would be close or an interesting battle at all.  What do you mean when you say he can hold her off for a while, if he can hold her off for three seconds it's still a curbstomp in her favor, it's like the fight between Mosley vs Margarito, Shane kicked that ass for 12 rounds staight mercilessly, Margarito stood his ground but the fight was far from interesting, and they are two fighters on par with each other do you think the fight would have went the same way if Shane fought the Heavy Weight Champion, SMP is not in the same ball park as the lifeforce of an omniverse no matter how much fan speculation gives him power.  Spectre always comes into a fight as a being of indeterminate power, wasn't he laid low by a bat kick once, another bad example."