The Presence vs Thought Robot

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SleepyGypsy

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#101  Edited By SleepyGypsy

Final Crisis Revelations set up that the Radiant and Spectre cannot die unless The Presence dies first.

This is what happens when the Spectre is "killed", his essence and soul remain and Crispus is left there as a "Ghost" just watching Cain wreck more of the world.

One issue later, Rox Ogama eats the Spectre and the Radiant, Heaven was beaten in a war and the Pax Dei angels want revenge on Rox Ogama. Because the Presence is dead.

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SleepyGypsy

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#102  Edited By SleepyGypsy

By the way, The Spectre cannot die unless the Presence dies first and just last month in Hell Arisen 4, The Spectre was killed.

Perpetua has the power of the Void Wind, which specifically targets the sphere of gods and kills them all.

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Scans say it. Author said it. Superfans of Vertigo say otherwise. Fact > Favoritism.

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kilgpmktra

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Not gonna lie, you CAS debaters are gonna get the character banned if y’all keep playing

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Deagonx

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>Because the Presence is dead.

What you failed to meention was that the Presence was never referenced in any way shape or form, and your scan with Mandrakk merely showed them defeated. It was never stated that they were dead either.

>just last month in Hell Arisen 4, The Spectre was killed.

Where? I just read the issue and Spectre doesnt appear in any form.

>Perpetua has the power of the Void Wind, which specifically targets the sphere of gods and kills them all.

It says it has the power to kill Gods. That can apply to dozens of characters who are much weaker than the Presence.

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SleepyGypsy

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The Presence is God in DC. He owns The Spectre and Radiant and the Pax Dei are his army. A monitor ate God's servants and made his army vengeful. I guess the Spectre, Radiant, Heaven and the Pax Dei belong to some other character in DC. rofl great argument.

Presence went bye bye again when Perpetua came back and Batman Who Laughs killed The Spectre.

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Also, addressing another piece of bad information you gave about Nil monitors coming from COIE Mar Novu. Well, here is Batman Who Laughs disagreeing with you and showing you clearly that Nil Monitors are not related to COIE Monitors.

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SleepyGypsy

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#106  Edited By SleepyGypsy

Mate, your group has hit a point where you are just fine telling everyone that The Presence doesn't own the Spectre, Radiant and the Pax Dei. If you guys didn't make a bunch of Monitor vs threads and say absurd things like this...

@kilgpmktra said:

Not gonna lie, you CAS debaters are gonna get the character banned if y’all keep playing

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Deagonx

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@sleepygypsy:

>I guess the Spectre, Radiant, Heaven and the Pax Dei belong to some other character in DC.

I assume you are strawmanning again because you have no argument?

>Batman Who Laughs killed The Spectre.

Lol. So a vague statement that doesnt even actually confirm whether or not he killed the Spectre, off-screen in a Dark Multiverse version of the characteer who may or may not follow the same rules as stated in a 2008 comic book. Very convincing. I guess The Presence really is dead! /s

>Batman Who Laughs disagreeing with you and showing you clearly that Nil Monitors are not related to COIE Monitors.

Lmao, all he does is refer to Nix as the last of the Monitors, who are all just aspects of Mar Novu.

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Deagonx

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Oh and here's the author saying the Dark Multiverse version was just an echo of the real Spectre.

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kilgpmktra

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@sleepygypsy: I never once made a thread regarding any comic DC character or debated against them

But you guys are painting CAS as some unbeatable ultra-god and if the people who run this site deem him as unbeatable, he will be banned.

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Deagonx

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There we go, got a direct confirmation that it doesnt mean the Presence was killed.

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deactivated-5e95b53c9dc77

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Oh noes! my obsessed fantasy world is collapsing so Quick! I should strawman Deagon in my next argument!

Better look politically good in the face of my fanatical supporters!

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SagaTheLegend

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@deagonx said:

@sagathelegend:

>He is now his true self so he must have all fragments returned to him now.

Maybe, maybe not. It could be that he regained his true self without necessarily reclaiming every single aspect. You're imposing a rule on a fictional concept. It is the way that they write it to be. If they had explicitly stated that, I would agree, but they didn't, so the idea he reformed without reclaiming Mandrakk and Nix Uotan doesn't override the clear point made that Monitors are aspects of Mar Novu.

  • "I'm imposing a rule" to a fictional concept. Where are you getting that from? I am just using the elements estabilished by the narrative. Neither Nix Uotan and Mandrakk are on that scan and none of them are referenced by name or by the visuals. We just know that Dax Novu "splintered in many aspects" (the number wasn't even stated) there is nothing stating he split into all Nil Monitors. and finally reformed as his true self. If the narration wanted him to be incomplete they would have told us, which is not what happened, the context makes it pretty clear.
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  • Everything is just speculation at this point.

>Mar Novu was not named until Justice League #22

Sure, but Monitor still predates Dax Novu, even on the scan you showed right after that. "Of the Over-void is Monitor born and Anti-Monitor" referring to the original CoIE characters, who are now part of Snyders story as Mobius and Mar Novu.

  • Your argument was that this: That scan just said "Novu." Where does it indicate whether it's Dax Novu or Mar Novu? I've proven that scan refers to Dax Novu, since he was the only one with the name "Novu" at the time of the Multiversity's conception. Now knowing that, he was called as Proto-Monitor, because he was the first, he predates the entire race of Nil Monitors. And althought Monitor and Anti Monitor existed first, that doesn't mean anything, since Mar Novu only split into multiple entitities after the Infinite Crisis, said into your own scan.
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  • Dax existed before all of that.
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What had been Universe became Multiverse

Divided, deranged, Novu catalogues and numbers each variation on a basic theme, each alternative twist.

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And so begin all things with a Flash.

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  • Notice how Dax was catalogating events before Infinite Crisis and COIE even happpened. Before Mar Novu even split.

>he is fighting with The Unexpected, claiming he cannot be destroyed and citing the attempts that failed to do that.

Thats a large leap in logic. Barbatos chained him, so you assume that he tried and failed to kill Mandrakk? That's non-sequitur.

  • Again, Mandrakk mentioned that Barbatos could hardly chain him. That obviously means Barbatos had trouble chaining even a weakened Mandrakk. Trying to kill him is a possibility, since Mandrakk cites the event alongside the failed attempts characters had at destroying him.
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Mandrakk: You are so small! Barbatos could hardly chain me! Superman clothed in cosmic armor could only banish me! I can never be destroyed

  • The fact is there, Barbatos, the Bat-God who killed the World Forger, has trouble chaining and dealing with the weakest incarnation of Mandrakk. (Who of course would fight back if someone tried to imprison him ngl)
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SagaTheLegend

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And here we have a little kid. Oh boy,, its hilarious you made two alts dedicated only to Michael, you must be really obssessed with him, whoever you are.

@deagonx said:

There we go, got a direct confirmation that it doesnt mean the Presence was killed.

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But MUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, you always ignore what the author says.! I do not care about it!

Oh noes! my obsessed fantasy world is collapsing so Quick! I should strawman Deagon in my next argument!

Better look politically good in the face of my fanatical supporters!

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Rijehu

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Rijehu

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@iiko24: When the worshipers along with their false god gets banned.

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Deagonx

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@sagathelegend:

>Where are you getting that from?

Well you're saying that theres no where the Nil Monitors can be the aspects of Mar Novu because two of them still exist post-reformation. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that.

>If the narration wanted him to be incomplete they would have told us, which is not what happened, the context makes it pretty clear.

I disagree, I think the fact that Green Lantern specifically expressed confusion between "the Monitors" and "Monitor singular" prefacing this explanation makes it very clear that his intent was that the Monitors were aspects of Mar Novu.

>And althought Monitor and Anti Monitor existed first, that doesn't mean anything, since Mar Novu only split into multiple entitities after the Infinite Crisis, said into your own scan.

Crisis on Infinite Earths, not Infinite Crisis. "What had been infinite was contained to 52 Universes." Technically, yes, they were contained to 1 Universe which was then 52 universes, but seeing as Monitor had no involvement in Infinite Crisis it's fairly clear they just glossed over the period where it was 1 universe, since its Infinite -> 52 not 1->52. His fragmentation is unrelated to Infinite Crisis.

>Dax existed before all of that.

I mean, maybe? We don't really know when those scans take place. There were already stories and events that had happened when Monitor discovered the flaw, so there's not exactly a clear spot for when Dax was brought forth. All we know is it was definitely before Final Crisis.

>Notice how Dax was catalogating events before Infinite Crisis and COIE even happpened. Before Mar Novu even split.

I dont see where you're getting that it's before CoIE. "What had been Universe becomes Multiverse" refers to Infinite Crisis, and is the first statement made after Dax Novu's initial entry. The later scan which explicitly references CoIE is also unconnected from the Monitors.

>Mandrakk mentioned that Barbatos could hardly chain him. That obviously means Barbatos had trouble chaining even a weakened Mandrakk. Trying to kill him is a possibility, since Mandrakk cites the event alongside the failed attempts characters had at destroying him.

It's a possibility, but this was written before it was revealed Mar Novu fragmented into various aspects after CoIE. We could assume that killing Mandrakk was not on the table initially for Barbatos (whilst still under WF's control) because he was an aspects of Mar Novu. Not sure though, the whole Barbatos thing is off-screen.

>The fact is there, Barbatos, the Bat-God who killed the World Forger, has trouble chaining and dealing with the weakest incarnation of Mandrakk.

Maybe, but World Forger himself didn't truly die, since he's back through means yet unknown.

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deactivated-5e80d2cfcca66

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Still Presence, nothing has changed and never will.

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MichaelJulius

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Justice League Dark confirmed Perpetua is the original Creator and not Presence, that Dr. Fate and Constantine both agree Hecate > The Presence, that the Otherkind cannot affect The Presence and that he lives in fear of them, and also Lucifer himself saying he thinks the Otherkind are absurdly powerful. CAS obliterates because his little brother already roflstomped The Presence and his servants.

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Deagonx

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Justice League Dark confirmed Perpetua is the original Creator and not Presence, that Dr. Fate and Constantine both agree Hecate > The Presence

Never mind of course that neither of these statements had anything to do with the Presence.

that the Otherkind cannot affect The Presence and that he lives in fear of them, and also Lucifer himself saying he thinks the Otherkind are absurdly powerful.

Nothing ever indicated the Presence was afraid. No idea what you're talking about with Lucifer. Do you mean First of the Fallen? Thats a different character.

CAS obliterates because his little brother already roflstomped The Presence and his servants.

He KO'd Spectre and Radiant, which is not impressive in the scale of this discussion. Presence wasnt involved in that storyline.

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Earendill

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#125  Edited By Earendill

Presence easily

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PaulPogba

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MichaelJulius

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Presence lives in space created by Perpetua, who in turn isn't on par with Mandrakk. CAS stomps. Even Dr. Fate agrees there are things beyond The Presence and Synder is on video saying he showed you what they were.

KO = drained? lifeless on the ground in stiffness as corpses are, one hand stuck up in the air, eyes open and jaw open. That's just a KO, they are snuggly bunny sleeping and napping. Solid argument. Presence can't touch a Monitor, especially not a thing that one shots a Monitor.

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Deagonx

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#128  Edited By Deagonx

Presence lives in space created by Perpetua

Presence doesn't live in Heaven.

Perpetua, who in turn isn't on par with Mandrakk.

Perpetua >> Mar Novu >> Mandrakk, his aspect

KO = drained? lifeless on the ground in stiffness as corpses are, one hand stuck up in the air, eyes open and jaw open.

Do you know what a KO'd person looks like?

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They are lifeless, they are stiff, and they can have a hand up as shown. Don't worry Michael. That guy isn't dead.

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MichaelJulius

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Hi sorry, in this canon Heaven and the silver city are mentioned as the same general area. Knocking someone out doesn't mean they are drained and meaningless. Your argument is so fragile here that you think someone consuming the servants of God means they are just napping.

Rox obliterating them without any of his Nil Monitor status is a roflstomp of Yahwe, his entire army and his two closest servants. But sure, whatever you say Deagon, KO = lifeless drained and meaningless, dropped on the ground and just "napping."

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Redshift_Bacon

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#130  Edited By Redshift_Bacon

Thought Robot blinks away any and all DC characters not directly related to the Overvoid. Only Perpetua and obviously Mandrakk can beat him, plus whatever entities Perpetua was trying to kill.

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Deagonx

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Hi sorry, in this canon Heaven and the silver city are mentioned as the same general area.

He lives in neither.

Knocking someone out doesn't mean they are drained and meaningless.

Draining someone doesn't mean they're dead either.

his entire army and his two closest servants.

Rox never fought the Pax Dei, and Radiant and Spectre are much weaker than The Presence

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EineFaust

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I don't understand why you are still obsessed with Vertigo wank.

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ArikErdenet01

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Thought robot probably

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SagaTheLegend

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Thought Robot

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MichaelJulius

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We have literal proof that Perpetua > The Presence.

CAS is stronger than Perpetua. You guys lost this in 2018 when JL Dark came out and they flat out stated Perpetua is the creator and that was in the middle of them talking about Hecate and Constantine's dealings with Eclipso and Yahwe. Enough already! You are all done on this subject with regard to facts. Feel free to debate your subjective preferences but none of us should have to listen to this bias anymore about the Presence being the alpha of DC. It just isn't the case anymore.

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Deagonx

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@michaeljulius:

We have literal proof that Perpetua > The Presence.

No, we don't.

CAS is stronger than Perpetua.

No he isn't. CAS barely managed to defeat Mandrakk, and you guys literally say he had help from Monitor-Mind. Perpetua >>> Mandrakk.

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Mister_Surreal

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Good lord! Presence stomps already.

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Youk66

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Presence maybe other then 4 or 5 don't how the hell they made themselves monitor fanboys

Everyone will agree

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EineFaust

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@youk66:

Vertigo fanboy doesn't know the official setting that everything in DC come from Superman.

Whether you agree or not doesn't matter.

CAS stomps.

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Mev11

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Trash - Monitor fans

Whether you agree or not doesn't

CAS is fodder

Presence stomps

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EineFaust

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@mev11:

Based on what?

We are based on official settings though.

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PaulPogba

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@olajoe1 said:

Presence without even trying

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Shinne

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Oh wow...

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HukO

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MichaelJulius

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I love how the entire opposition denies what was said in JLA 2018 and Justice League Dark 2018. All you guys do is censor entire comic series to try to justify your bias. CAS stomps the Presence, because Perpetua stomps the Presence as it was stated in JL Dark. CAS and Mandrakk were both made to contain everything in the Flaw, Presence included. Enough of this. Stop the insults and stop denying entire series of comics. Vertigo fans are so toxic with hierarchy based threads like this and REFUSE to accept anything DC says about it.

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Deagonx

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@michaeljulius:

I love how the entire opposition denies what was said in JLA 2018 and Justice League Dark 2018. All you guys do is censor entire comic series to try to justify your bias. CAS stomps the Presence, because Perpetua stomps the Presence as it was stated in JL Dark. CAS and Mandrakk were both made to contain everything in the Flaw,

Wrong on multiple accounts. Perpetua is never stated to overpower the Presence, and Perpetua >>>> CAS and Mandrakk. CAS and Mandrakk were not made to contain the flaw, they were parts of a probe made to study it. The only thing made to contain the flaw was the Orrery, according to the author.

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MichaelJulius

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FACTS

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Deagonx

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