@tedirey: Yeah but it's also pretty easy to argue that any of the three Monitor Brothers are also above TR by scaling above Mandrakk.
The Presence vs Thought Robot
There are a bunch of people who really think The Presence exists outside of the Art of the comic books of Vertigo and DC publications. They are incorrect. Do you really think The Presence is outside of the comic pages he is printed on, beyond the artwork and text of the comic page? He isn't. He is a story plot in the comics of DC and Vertigo and not the literal comic page itself.
The users who hate Monitor stories ruined DC comics for other fans coming to learn more about the hierarchy and how things are setup. You've warped and twisted the facts to suit your preferences and ruined it for many others, for years, who asked you for the facts. You didn't present them with the facts. You presented them with your bias.
Comics aren't real and if you think they are, debunk dude, you need medication and I suggest you call a support line for some therapy help.
If Grant or any other meta fictional writer sitting down to write a story about things outside of the comic is just too complex for you, and it blows your mind to this level, and you blur real life where comics aren't real and confuse that with a narrative someone wrote about other narratives leaving the comic page...why the hell are you debating meta topics? This is beyond your level of comprehension.
Buggs Bunny here existing outside of the comic he drew, inside of the fiction of Looney Tunes, is too much for you to handle without calling Buggs Bunny REAL LIFE. OMG LOL YOU THINK BUGGS IS REAL!
@lmaolmaolmao said:
Michael:Comics arent real
Also Michael:CAS is real show me feats of your character coming out of the comic and affecting other fiction
@sleepygypsy said:
Comics aren't real and if you think they are, debunk dude, you need medication and I suggest you call a support line for some therapy help.
If Grant or any other meta fictional writer sitting down to write a story about things outside of the comic is just too complex for you, and it blows your mind to this level, and you blur real life where comics aren't real and confuse that with a narrative someone wrote about other narratives leaving the comic page...why the hell are you debating meta topics? This is beyond your level of comprehension.
Buggs Bunny here existing outside of the comic he drew, inside of the fiction of Looney Tunes, is too much for you to handle without calling Buggs Bunny REAL LIFE. OMG LOL YOU THINK BUGGS IS REAL!
@lmaolmaolmao said:
Michael:Comics arent real
Also Michael:CAS is real show me feats of your character coming out of the comic and affecting other fiction
Pick one scrub
Presence doesn't exist past the art of DC and is not the page upset that someone drew on it. Get over it, you are wrong and have been wrong on this.
Comics aren't real life. If someone sitting down and writing a story about beings that exist outside of the story is blowing your mind to this level, you should not be debating Metafiction or cosmic tier. Looney Tunes was too complex for you. Haha.
"Show me CAS popping off the page and existing in real life!"
"Guy writes a story with things that exist outside of his own narrative and comic so that means its real life haha you think its real life hahahha show me CAS outside of the comic!!"
CAS STOMPS.
I love how upset you guys are over the story of Monitors, to the point where you need to say to yourself that the Presence is beyond the Comic art and comic page. Rofl, he isn't. Presence is the ink on the page, Monitor Mind is the page the ink is written on haha.
@deagonx said:
@tedirey: Yeah but it's also pretty easy to argue that any of the three Monitor Brothers are also above TR by scaling above Mandrakk.
- You can't scale Mandrakk or TR to the Monitor Brothers or Perpetua in anyway. Mandrakk was stated to be directly created by Monitor Mind.
For study, Monitor-Mind brings forth SCIENCE MONITOR DAX NOVU
- And given the timen its before Mar Novu splint and Dax Novu, there is no way he could have been one of those aspects, he was pretty much always different than the other Monitors, being called a "Proto Monitor" for example.
- And as you know, he was directly stated to be a part of Monitor Mind himself.
- I am also not sure how would you scale them to the Nil Monitors even if you consider fragments of Mar Novu. Their combined power could not contain him, and he was capable of casually one shotting them if he wanted to. And that was before his power began to rise exponentially.
@deagonx said:
>Lol nice headcanon there. Neither Nil or TR are fragments of Mar Novu.
The Nil Monitors are all fragments of Mar Novu.
- With current information? Not enought to tell for sure. Sure Mar Novu states that he splintered into multiple versions of himself, but those were never directly stated to be have been the Monitors of Nil. The Map also stated that there used to be other members of the "Monitor Race" in the Monitor Sphere, meaning there used to be more Monitors there besides the one we saw in Final Crisis.
- That and the fact that Nix Uotan is still out there. Given nothing indicates the Monitor isn't at full power, I don't think he would have reformed with one of his "fragments" missing.
@deagonx said:
>You can't scale Mandrakk or TR to the Monitor Brothers or Perpetua in anyway. Mandrakk was stated to be directly created by Monitor Mind.
This was retconned. Dax Novu is now an aspect of Mar Novu who was fragmented by CoIE.
- Nope, this was never stated anywhere. Mar Novu didn't even need him to reform.
>I am also not sure how would you scale them to the Nil Monitors even if you consider fragments of Mar Novu. Their combined power could not contain him, and he was capable of casually one shotting them if he wanted to.
Im not sure why exactly Mandrakk was more powerful than other monitors. Maybe because he was feeding on the bleed or something.
- Yeah, bleed makes him stronger, but it did not make Rox Ogama nearly as powerful as him. The scale gets even messier if you use current continuity, when you consider that Barbatos was able to kill the World Forger in the Dark Multiverse but not an extremely weakened and starving Mandrakk.
And yes, given the context its more than likely that they fought off screen.
>Sure Mar Novu states that he splintered into multiple versions of himself, but those were never directly stated to be have been the Monitors of Nil.
The full context makes it pretty clear this is the case.
- Not sure how? Mandrakk and Nix Uotan are still out there despite the fact that the Monitor had completey reformed.
The Presence is not the comic page. He is the ink on the page. CAS and Madrakk stand outside of the narrative spaces of the DCU. This story is about the ink vs the meta page and the meta page being pissed off that someone drew on it. CAS wins this. Sorry. The Presence doesn't exist beyond the Art of DC comics. Monitors do.
Also, Nil Monitors are descendants from Mandrakk, not Mar Novu.
>Nope, this was never stated anywhere.
Yes it is.
They arrive on Nil, and Superman says "this is where the Monitors lived before the Final Crisis." Green Lantern says "I thought we were looking for a Monitor, singular" and thats when they explained that Mar Novu was fragmented into various aspects after CoIE. In the background while explaining this they show the race of Nil Monitors. It was said that he didnt come back to his full self until the rise of the Dark Multiverse.
>The scale gets even messier if you use current continuity, when you consider that Barbatos was able to kill the World Forger in the Dark Multiverse but not an extremely weakened and starving Mandrakk.
These are different characters with the same name.
Hyper-Adapter/Barbatos is an Apokoliptian, who fought Mandrakk: https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Hyper-Adapter_(New_Earth)
Bat-God/Barbatos was a creation of World Forger, to eat Universes: https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Barbatos_(Dark_Multiverse)
@deagonx said:
>Nope, this was never stated anywhere.
Yes it is.
They arrive on Nil, and Superman says "this is where the Monitors lived before the Final Crisis." Green Lantern says "I thought we were looking for a Monitor, singular" and thats when they explained that Mar Novu was fragmented into various aspects after CoIE. In the background while explaining this they show the race of Nil Monitors. It was said that he didnt come back to his full self until the rise of the Dark Multiverse.
- Visually those are pretty much just clones of Mar Novu tbh. While it is mentioned that he did splint into many aspects, it is also stated in that bit that he began to re-formas his true self, which implies all aspects are now back into one. To which Mar Novu replies
Yes, I was re-formed.
- He never once complains about some lack of power or one or two of his fragments missing. He only misses the presence of his tools, his ship, his Harbinger. Nothing in the comic replies he is not fully powered or incomplete, yet we have Uotan and Mandrakk who supposedly are "his fragments" still kicking around.
- Mandrakk was a given among Nil Monitors, a genius, the first, the "Proto-Monitor", as I explain below, even an extremely weakened, broken, starved and lower dimensional Mandrakk is somewhat comparable to Barbatos who killed The Original Monitor's brother, which makes no sense given he should be way weaker if he was just a fragment. Given he already has an origin story, existed before COIE and wasn't needed for Mar Novu to re-form, he being the a fragment of him sounds fishy with current information. That and his son Nix Uotan is still kicking around despite Mar Novu being in his true form. As of now, either the Nil Monitors aren't really fragments of The Monitor given there used to been more of their race before or those two are exceptions for some reason.
>The scale gets even messier if you use current continuity, when you consider that Barbatos was able to kill the World Forger in the Dark Multiverse but not an extremely weakened and starving Mandrakk.
These are different characters with the same name.
Hyper-Adapter/Barbatos is an Apokoliptian, who fought Mandrakk: https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Hyper-Adapter_(New_Earth)
Bat-God/Barbatos was a creation of World Forger, to eat Universes: https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Barbatos_(Dark_Multiverse)
- LMAO that doesn't even make sense, Mandrakk was literally trapped in the Dark Multiverse.
You seek to quiet my voice? Find me in the Dark Multiverse.
Hawkman: ...Taunting from the Dark... in the shadows of Barbatos
Mandrakk: Superman cast me into the Overvoid.For too long I lay broken by the fall, starved with only my words to echo in the dark.
- Then he goes on to say this? Its pretty obvious he is talking about the "Bat-God" Barbatos, unless the Dark Multiverse is now ruled by an Apokoliptian. Not only that the wikia page mentions when Hyper-Adapter's last appearance was.
>Visually those are pretty much just clones of Mar Novu tbh
All the monitors are pretty much just clones of Mar Novu, visually.
>it is also stated in that bit that he began to re-formas his true self, which implies all aspects are now back into one.
Correct, he began to reform himself once the Dark Multiverse rose. For reference, the Dark Multiverse debuted in 2017.
>He never once complains about some lack of power or one or two of his fragments missing.
It may not bother him. There could be several explanations for this, but it doesnt really counter the fact that the Nil Monitors are aspects of Mar Novu. It's fiction, you can sort of make up your own rules.
>Mandrakk was a given among Nil Monitors, a genius, the first, the "Proto-Monitor"
That scan just said "Novu." Where does it indicate whether it's Dax Novu or Mar Novu?
>even an extremely weakened, broken, starved and lower dimensional Mandrakk is somewhat comparable to Barbatos who killed The Original Monitor's brother
The one who fought Mandrakk was the Hyper-Adapter. The one who killed Monitor's brother was Bat God. Not the same character.
>Its pretty obvious he is talking about the "Bat-God" Barbatos, unless the Dark Multiverse is now ruled by an Apokoliptian.
I seem to have misunderstood. Where are you getting that Bat-God Barbatos tried and failed to kill a weakened Mandrakk?
@deagonx said:
>Visually those are pretty much just clones of Mar Novu tbh
All the monitors are pretty much just clones of Mar Novu, visually.
>it is also stated in that bit that he began to re-form as his true self, which implies all aspects are now back into one.
Correct, he began to reform himself once the Dark Multiverse rose. For reference, the Dark Multiverse debuted in 2017.
- Yes and? He is now his true self so he must have all fragments returned to him now. If not he would have been "called" incomplete since there are fragments missing.
>He never once complains about some lack of power or one or two of his fragments missing.
It may not bother him. There could be several explanations for this, but it doesnt really counter the fact that the Nil Monitors are aspects of Mar Novu. It's fiction, you can sort of make up your own rules.
- It may not bother him. LOL. If he was incomplete he would not have said to have reformed into his "true self", which mains at least Nix Uotan and Mandrakk aren't parts of him at all.
>Mandrakk was a given among Nil Monitors, a genius, the first, the "Proto-Monitor"
That scan just said "Novu." Where does it indicate whether it's Dax Novu or Mar Novu?
- Mar Novu was not named until Justice League #22, Multiversity took place years before that and was just called the "Monitor" or the "Over Monitor". Not only that he is called just as "Monitor" by Morrison, the only Monitor who was ever called Novy in the story is Dax Novu, who like I said was called a "Proto Monitor" and was stated to be directly stated to be brought forth by the Monitor Mind himself.
>even an extremely weakened, broken, starved and lower dimensional Mandrakk is somewhat comparable to Barbatos who killed The Original Monitor's brother
The one who fought Mandrakk was the Hyper-Adapter. The one who killed Monitor's brother was Bat God. Not the same character.
- Headcanon, this just proves you have never read the Unexpected. The Hyper Adapter was never mentioned on this story and has nothing to with the Dark Multiverse. Even the freaking wikia states he is referenced in the issue.
Unexpected Voume 3 #8
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/The_Unexpected_Vol_3_8
Which by the way is where I got my scan from, you shoud read it. But I will explain it to you anyway. The story here is that Mandrakk sent a "a cosmic call" after being falling in the Dark Multiverse and being imprisoned there.
Quench scoured the multiverse , desperate to set foot at the World Forge to confront his unseen tormentor, the unending pain burning in his head, the call ofMandrakk.
Fatalist: But Mandrakk you called out for allies... to free you from your chains.
Mandrakk: And so you have, fatalist.
And this is referenced before in the scan I showed you. I will post it again since you must have missed it to make that Hyper Adapter argument.
You seek to quiet my voice? Find me in the Dark Multiverse.
Hawkman: ...Taunting from the Dark... in the shadows of Barbatos.
- Here Hawkman also references the events of Dark Metal, where he was turned into Barbatos' new dragon, proving this story is talking about that Bat-God. Once again who Mandrakk said chained him in the Dark Multiverse?
- It obviously means a conflict in this context, he is fighting with The Unexpected, claiming he cannot be destroyed and citing the attempts that failed to do that.
Mandrakk: You are so small! Barbatos could hardly chain me! Superman clothed in cosmic armor could only banish me! I can never be destroyed
- So Mandrakk was only hardly chained in the Dark Multiverse and could not be killed. And he mentions that Barbatos was the one responsible for this. That makes sense, since Barbatos is the ruler of the that realm. Now who you are claiming Mandrakk was chained instead?
- An apokoliptian weapon called the "Hyper-Adapter" owned by Darkseid, who was sent torment Batman throught history. See how has absolutely nothing to do with the Dark Multiverse or the current story? This guy got overwhelmed by the Justice League, yet you say he fought Mandrakk?
- Lol, this is hilarious. This guy never went to the Dark Multiverse, never met Mandrakk or any Monitor. Actually he never even appeared after this issue according to the wikia.
- He is been dead for more than 9 years. This guy isn't even in Post Flashpoint or Rebirth continuity. He has never been mentioned ever again. He was a weapon sent by Darkseid to torment Batman, that has absolutely nothing to do with The Unexpected. There is only one Barbatos mentioned in this entire story and is of course this one:
>Its pretty obvious he is talking about the "Bat-God" Barbatos, unless the Dark Multiverse is now ruled by an Apokoliptian.
I seem to have misunderstood. Where are you getting that Bat-God Barbatos tried and failed to kill a weakened Mandrakk?
- Read above.
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