The Presence vs The Overvoid

@pontateblock2:

I said your logic is futile because no fiction can be truely infinite according to your logic.

You can have a Multiverse of infinity in a fiction, if you don't do anything to write stupid things like "There's a centerpoint and edges of this infinity"

don't bring up that non sense about uncountable infinities because those things are completely incompatible to Multiverses because Multiverses are structured too uniquely and oddly to be able to be mapped with a stated cardinality. It's like trying to apply Imaginary Numbers to Universes, these maths make zero sense to apply them to such philosophical ideas and should be separated from each other.

@pontateblock2: What you said has literally no basis at all. The Presence is viewed as a being within a story. He’s merely a being who makes creations. He’s still beneath Morrison Hypertime, Earth 0, Earth 33 and Nil. He has no way of ever effecting the Overvoid especially since the Overvoid can make concepts like the Thought Robot to contain the flaw.

Earth 0 and Earth 33 are literally listed below Heaven and Hell and the Sphere of the Gods. What are you talking about? And even then. DC's Multiverse Map is not to be taken literally and many characters had gone and seen the Overvoid without having to pass through the Nil.

@pontateblock2:

Do you understand the fact that almost every fiction treating infinite multiverse have the center as omnipotent being or The creator that everything come from?

For example,Tenchi is the center of Tenchi multiverse.

I said Superman is the center of multiverse in that sense.

And,Overvoid containing the flow has no center.

@xearesay:

I don't understand why people don't understand what was written in actual stories.

@pontateblock2: Earth 33/Final Heaven influence all of creation. This was stated in a scan I already showed you. Location means nothing when the authority governs all things realities fictional or otherwise.

Earth 0 is the center to the Metaverse. It’s a fake analogue to the “real world.” This is what’s Dr Manhattan altered to not only create Rebirth, but dictate DC’s entire continuity.

>many characters had gone and seen the Overvoid without having to pass through the Nil.

Needs evidence. Yah know the thing you don’t like using.

This statement is ironic, coming from someone who is so obsessed with what they call "Dimensional Tiering placements" and level placements as the only basis for power for most of his arguments.

>>Needs evidence. Yah know the thing you don’t like using.

Overvoid as seen from the Promethean Galaxy through the gap left by the destroyed Source Wall. No Sphere of the Gods, no Nil, just galaxies distance away from the Milky Way.

But you'll probably say that the Overvoid used Kage bunshi no Jutsu and made many small clones of itself to trick us into thinking it's the Overvoid.

And that Perpetua used Kage bunshi no Jutsu the entire DC Multiverse, including copies of Mandrakk to trick us into thinking Dark Knights Metal is not a completely different canon. Without anything in the story implying this is what happened.

Without dimensional tiering,Overvoid is absolute infinite in DC cosmology because Overvoid is the canvas(The paper) containing every fiction and real world.

This definition is common in both Snyder cosmology and Morrison cosmology.

At least you don't believe in the Overvoid Shadow Clone Jutsu conspiracy theory that Xearxesay won't stop arguing about.

@pontateblock2: lol for someone who likes explicit information you sure don’t care for it when the information agrees with you. Where does that explicitly state Overvoid? The source lies beyond the source wall. Not the Overvoid. Try again.

The Source and Overvoid are not the same. Here are just some of the references to the Source Wall and how it correlates to the DC Multiverse Map. It isn't the same location in Snyder's JLA2018 series. Authors do not always adhere to the past author's work. Grant didn't listen to where Kirby's location of the wall always was and Snyder didn't listen to where it was according to Grant.

This is how this entire counter opposition sees the Cosmic Map. Proof of how delusional they are and that they require rewriting the guidebook to feel better about The Presence being inferior to the Overvoid.

@sleepygypsy: Lmao, the second map is gold, ngl

I actually do not agree with you on this one, mate. Nil Monitors and Superman/Ultraman are the only beings who have ever seen the white Overvoid. Nobody but Captain Allen has ever directly interacted with Overvoid in the history of DC Comics.

Just a fun tidbit: All the "gods" of DC use the letter P to reference their name.

Primal Monitor = God in Morrison lorespace, the sentient canvass DC is printed on.

The Presence = God in Kirby/Vertigo lorespace, the Biblical Yahwe.

Perpetua = God of Snyder lorespace, a Monitor Creator who uses the Overvoid for energy.

Pralaya = God before the Biblical Yahwe from DeMatteis lorespace, potentially Yahwe's unmanifest consciousness or maybe not.

This single scan shuts down the entire argument of this group, who simply refuse to listen to any factual statements presented by DC guidebooks.

I've explained this before and so did Grant, The Presence, Kirby and even...Brainiac. The Source is the mystical energy that flows beyond the Source Wall and it is supposed to be us, the readers. If you link it directly to anyone in DC, it is The Empty Hand and not The Presence. All the guidebooks confirm this and even the Presence and author DeMatteis and Carey agree that The Presence was not the creator. The Source created The Presence.

This crowd doesn't even remotely care about how every guidebook confirms this. The Presence is a Creation of The Source. I was correct on the superposition of Earth 33 and other locations on this map is what was happening, well before I asked Mr. Hughes about it. He agreed.

Earth 33 is The Source.

@sagathelegend said:

@sleepygypsy: I never said any other beings have seen the Overvoid. I said the Overvoid is a source figure to Morrison.

On the mid left. "The source is the white page."

"It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source."

Although the end bit where Grant states "and in the context of the DC universe" is getting me confused because the Monitors aren't apart of the DC universe. Which leads me to believe the Overvoid is a Kirby source type figure while being not the same thing as Kirby's source.

@xearesay: Ah, apologies then, I misunderstood.

As you know my thoughts on this already, I'll reiterate for the others. The Overvoid+Source+Mandrakk situation is a copy and paste of the Judeo-Christian hierarchy. Grant even mentions he wants his own version of Angels called Monitors in The Multiversity.

God becomes Jesus, the power of God is called the Holy Spirit, the trinity. Overvoid becomes Mandrakk, the power of God is called The Source. Overvoid is to Yahwe as Jesus is to Mandrakk.

For a while, I've said the Earths's and other locations are in Superposition on the map and in flux. Nobody ever had this argument but me that I am aware of. Mr. Hughes confirmed the Earth's are in flux and some are in Superposition, meaning they are in two places at once on the map. Earth 33 is the Source, The Empty Hand is the embodiment of The Source as a character. Grant's Death of the New Gods was a complete retcon on a literal business level, and he wanted to remake that character of The Source in The Empty Hand. He did this also with The Filth being about Monitors told from a different point of view.

@sleepygypsy: The locations of the structures changing would explain things like the nature and the location of the source being so inconsistent.

Correct.

Final Crisis and Multiversity is the only "canon" of DC and Vertigo that deals with a Meta. It talks about the authors of the comic series, all the writers and their canons, the real world and leaving the authors retcon. No other canons of DC house this information. DC has confirmed, as you know, that Convergence is adhering only to Morrison's Map Cosmology.

It is only in these Monitor threads that the trash argument that the Presence > The author avatar is valid. What as shame in that Grant said Nix Uotan is his avatar...the guy he said dreams up DC. How's that fact working out for the Final Crisis Support Group?

That's ironic.

Where does that explicitly state Overvoid? The source lies beyond the source wall. Not the Overvoid. Try again.

So what do you call that then? The Overvoid's Shadow Clone? Another one of your conspiracy theories? Where's your evidence that in Snyder's mythos, there's many multiple Voids?

Justice League literally confirmed that was beyond the same, Promethean Source Wall was the All-Consuming Void.

All-Consuming Void, meaning this Void is Omniversal and in the same context with the Overvoid within the same Snyder/Morrison mythos, so don't try to nonsense me about how it's not the Overvoid.

Grant literally associated the Overvoid with the Source, and even called the Overvoid the Source in your literal map. And called the Source the White Page.

And since Snyder as well as Morrison conflates his Void with the Overvoid, and you have no evidence to prove in Snyder's mythos, he believes in multiple Void clones theory crap you keep on spouting, you have nothing to counter what I provided.

And don't try to crock crap me saying it is outdated since Snyder still continues on portraying that the Void is beyond the Source Wall with my first scan.

@pontateblock2:

So what do you call that then? The Overvoid's bastard cousin? Another one of your conspiracy theories? Where's your evidence that in Snyder's mythos, there's many multiple Voids?

Snyder's mythos is one canon with one void behind it. Same way Pralay was the manifestation of the void behind her canon, and Vertigo had a void behind it's canon.

Justice League literally confirmed that was beyond the same, Promethean Source Wall was the All-Consuming Void

The void does not imply overvoid since DC has multiple voids like I already explained before. Jack Kirby's source was called the same thing in this scan, "void... that which is the all and beyond all." What makes you believe the void being talked about isn't Kirby's source?

And since Snyder as well as Morrison conflates his Void with the Overvoid, and you have no evidence to prove in Snyder's mythos, he believes in multiple Void clones theory crap you keep on spouting, you have nothing to counter what I provided.

Snyder is doing his own canon that's going to be a building block for the incorporation of all other canons in DC. Scott saids this during his interview with Io9.

Go to 3:28 to hear scott talk about "building a mega narrative."

Currently everything shown during Justice league has own took place in one canon. This is shown at the end of justice league 39 when Perpetua reveals that she designed this whole story(canon) from the very start. Everything we've read from the start of metal to now has been literally set up and created by Perpetua to happen. Every bit of it. She was always in control.

The quintessence mention other events transpired outside of the heroes reality like Doomsday Clock and leviathan which takes place in the near future.

So no you're wrong. What took place in justice league was all contained in one canon. You'd know this if you've actually understood how Hypertime works which you clearly don't. Perpetua did not create the flaw which is "every story" stated by Dan Didio like you said.

And Scott Snyder is not extending off Final Crisis since Final Crisis took us to places beyond Hypertime. You're evidently proven incorrect. Find new arguments.

The old guidebook in Kirby-era stated the Source made everything and that we made the Source. The Source Wall location is completely different depending on the author and canon being spoken of. The location of the Final Crisis Source Wall is past the Meta authors control. Beyond retcon itself. Everywhere else, its at the edge of space.

Every single one of you, know the Writer and Meta author avatars > The Presence. Nix Uotan is the Writer and Morrison avatar. Your case is denied and invalid.

Overvoid > The Presence. Snyder is not using Grant's version of the Source Wall, or anything else in the hierarchy. Snyder is using Kirby's version.

@sleepygypsy: They're just gonna pull the "It's not explicitly stated argument" as a justification for their appeal to ignorance and opinion insert. Both of them have proven to know nothing about Hypertime or Earth 33. lol @pontateblock3 tried to use creationism as a way to justify his belief that platonic concepts can't exist in DC without proving if DC is run off creationism.

@debunkdude You gonna join in or are you gonna watch Me and Michael have to remove the monsters from under your beds?

Because Platonic Concepts are Timeless, and Monitors have proven gagillions of times that they are in fact, affected by Linear Events, are Created, Change and transformations between one state from another. And there were times when they didn't even exist yet, and their personalities are a result of being affected by Human story observation.

All the Anti-Feats point to them not being Platonic Concepts.

And even if they were Platonic Concepts, this literally means jack crap of nothing because other Multiversal characters in other fictions don't rely on concepts to sustain their existence. So their Platonic feats are effectively useless against self-contained Multiversals.

The counter oppositions viewpoint is to use the new canon of Snyder to justify Morrisons, while they are at the same time telling me it's irrelevant and not to use the old canon to justify the new. What a trash argument.

The Writer > The Presence.

@deagonx2: He said that being independently created is incompatible with platonism based off the biblical philosophy creationism.

"Creationism means the taking of the Bible, particularly the early chapters of Genesis, as literally true guides to the history of the universe and to the history of life, including us humans, down here on earth (Numbers 1992)... Creationism in this more restricted sense entails a number of beliefs. These include, first, that a short time has elapsed since the beginning of everything"- Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Pontate - "Because Creation is the physical world, and Creation requires Time, and Time is a property of Change, while Platonic Objects contain the sum total of all possible changes in on itself, and all states of variation of a theme, object or animal."

Me - What are you talking about? I never said anything about creationism. I’m addressing your statements that platonic concepts cannot be created by another being. Idk why you’re assuming that because Mandrakk was created as an extension of the Overvoid that it’s referring to biblical creationism. That literally has nothing to with Final Crisis.

Pontate "That's like asking, why can't an Eternal thing create another Eternal thing or why can't an Omnipotent defeat another Omnipotent. You literally contradicted their definitions."

Shows how little you understand about what your friend is even saying. Pontate has yet to prove or provide reasoning for DC running off creationism. His argument is invalid.

Creation, as in things that are Created, are not Platonic because they are not Eternal and they are Physical. Stop misrepresenting what I say.

Me - What are you talking about? I never said anything about creationism. I’m addressing your statements that platonic concepts cannot be created by another being. Idk why you’re assuming that because Mandrakk was created as an extension of the Overvoid that it’s referring to biblical creationism. That literally has nothing to with Final Crisis.

I never said you said anything about Creationism of crazy Christian anti-science nonsense. What I mean by Creation, as in, things that are physical and created.

I have no idea how you arrived to those conclusions from what I typed. This is another Monitor tactic of creating strawmans to create new fronts of discussion whenever you are backed into a corner.

@pontateblock2: Coming to existence is only a state of change if we incorporate creationism. You have not and cannot prove that DC runs off creationism. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID BECAUSE YOU HAVE A BASELESS ASSUMPTION INCORPORATED INTO IT.

And even if they were Platonic Concepts, this literally means jack crap of nothing because other Multiversal characters in other fictions don't rely on concepts to sustain their existence. So their Platonic feats are effectively useless against self-contained Multiversals.

So they don't have metaphysical governing layer's run off old philosophies that established things beyond physics? Cool, that means any DC multiversal abstract vs a Marvel Multiversal abstract is now a complete mismatch in DC's favor. Thanks for helping to prove my point :)

I did not say that DC runs off Creationism, I said that DC does not run on Platonic Concepts which I had proven countlessly.

So they don't have metaphysical governing layer's run off old philosophies that established things beyond physics? Cool, that means any DC multiversal abstract vs a Marvel Multiversal abstract is now a complete mismatch. Thanks for helping to prove my point :)

No, it means that DC's Multiverse depends on concepts while Marvel's Multiverse is independent of concepts. Meaning that any DC vs Marvel fight is meaningless and impossible because they cannot properly interact their powers with one another. You didn't prove anything.

@deagonx2: Being created is a state of change based off creationism. By utilizing a philosophy to justify forms in DC you're implying that DC is using philosophy as well for the basis of their characters. You have not proven this making your argument invalid.

Wait, what?

JLA 2018 is not the current canon. This is a boldface grab for attention from this user, based on subjective opinion. DC Comics doesn't agree. Convergence dealt with DC Canon and history of the comics becoming one canon.

How the hell is Snyder's new canon the official canon, when Nil Monitors went on to talk about Anti Monitor directly! What drugs are you on? The Nil Monitors were unaffected by the COIE Monitors battles. Your argument is invalid, as usual.

@sleepygypsy: Where in those scans does it say that JL 2018 and Snyder's stuff is not current canon? You realize, it's still ongoing right? And it occasionally neatly references and dove-tails elements, and recalls events from Final Crisis right?

@deagonx2: The notion that platonic concepts being created is a form of change only derives from the philosophy of creationism. Prove that DC utilizes creationism or find a new argument. Why is that so hard for you to do? Are the pretty colors not looking the way you want them?

Because the Cosmic Map is still being used in the new canon, which by itself has a totally different hierarchy. lol

@pontateblock2: It's a current canon created by Perpetua and Dr Manhattan. Nil is beyond the canon structure of DC. The scan I gave you before answered this question. "Events that unfolded outside of your purview. Some disconnected from your reality altogether but still deeply felt and impactful."

Those references are notes the deeply felt impact of other canons. That does not mean it's a continuation of those other events that happened outside of reality. Perpetua specifically noted that this was all one event she designed to prove a point.

Learn how canon's work in DC before typing about DC's cosmology please.

Feel free to even attempt to explain how the Source Wall is located above Limbo on the Cosmic Map, but in Snyder's run it is located in the Promethean Galaxy and beings can literally take a space ship to fly to it. Then, try to explain to me how Snyder's run isn't contained by Morrison Cosmology. The Morrison Map is shown a few times in the Snyder cut because it's just another Multiverse on the Map. Good luck justifying this counter-argument. You won't be able to.

Show me where anyone from DC says Snyder canon is now the official primary canon. You are mistaken, DC has said many times Convergence follows Morrison's Map.

The Monitors were transformed into evil, either died, or were erased and are totally not needed to cast the DC Multiverse as if it was their own shadow, so they are totally subject to change.

And they didn't always exist, they do not transcend time. Nor eternal. Stop your confusing arguments.

Because the DC Multiverse map is not only inaccurate, it is incomplete and is not to be taken literally. It has been proven to just be a metaphor of the sorts.

A good testament is how we know, according to Morrison, there are Infinite Universes when the map only shows 52. And how the Monitor Sphere did not show the Source Wall.

It's clear as day even Morrison doesn't take the map literally. DC's authors do not take much importance on cosmological placements consistency.

@deagonx3: Nil is beyond the laws of existence. I've already proven this to you. The notion that the creation of abstract concepts was a change is built off the philosophy creationism.

"Creationism in this more restricted sense entails a number of beliefs. These include, first, that a short time has elapsed since the beginning of everything" - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, disagrees.

You gonna prove how DC is run off creationism? Or are you just gonna keep repeating the same thing.