The Presence vs The Overvoid

@sleepygypsy: I recall Dematis not even knowing who Superboy Prime was. Why would any listen to a guy who clearly has no understanding or goal of organizing DC's cosmology?

Morrison on the other hand was being called in by DC to make their damn superstructures like Hypertime.

He even saids he was given the opportunity to play with the DC multiverse during his interview. DC literally gave this guy the full go ahead to alter the entire cosmology and draw the cosmic map thats posted on their website.

The notion that Demmattis's word > Morrison's word is just favoritism at best.

@sleepygypsy: I’m sorry...I may be incompetent but, not sure how anything you just said relates to anything I said. Who mentioned the Presence being greater than the writer? Highlight that for me in my argument cause I missed it. I thought I was listing feats. Did you see something I didn’t?

@sleepygypsy: How much of our time are you going to waste on false accusations of us claiming that the Endless are above the Monitors?

I've never said that. Destiny isnt above the Monitors. The Endless aren't above the Monitors.

Destiny's book records everything in the Multiverse. That is the basis of what I've said, and I've proven that repeatedly.

@sleepygypsy: My argument is that the feats I listed, are the Presences and with them, he an be compared to the OM. I’m not sure where you’re going, but it appears to be off topic.

@sleepygypsy:

>I agree with this statement that Destiny records all the events in his Multiverse.

>However, events outside of creation are not part of his domain.

I'm posting on a 2nd account because for some reason I'm getting the "You've posted too many times in a row" message even though that's only supposed to come up when you are the last 2 comments on a thread, which I am clearly not.

I hate that. I just had this issue a few days ago. Sorry, I will try to limit my responses to you because I know it is stressful to not be able to respond right away.

Moving on, we disagree here. As I've said, Destiny and the Endless are not above monitors, but the authors have clearly stated that his book records everything in the Multiversity map.

DC comics stops being DC Comics at Limbo. Did you read the map? It clearly said Manifest DC ends. You disagree with me only because you think DC Comics continues onward past Limbo. It doesn't. As per the narrative of Final Crisis and The Multiversity, DC Comics, the fictional publication company, stops being a fiction when characters get to Limbo. This is why its called Superman Beyond. They went beyond the comic. The first page of Final Crisis, the slip cover, before the comic even starts, says CAS stuck his finger back into the comic book. How can you possibly argue this? He stuck his finger back into the edge of Limbo, which is the end of the comic book itself. The literal slip cover confirmed it.

That is the explanation for his metaphorical placement at the top of the Multiverse map. He himself isnt there, or that size, or above the monitors, but his book records the entire shebang. Thats what Hughes was saying in that tweet, and thats why Destiny is at that level.

No, he only records the events of the Presences creation and plan. This was stated many, many times. Outside of the Presences plan, he holds zero authority. Dream of the Endless confirmed The Monitors made everything. Not the Presence. This cannot be argued, but somehow it still is.

Because of this, that means Lucifer's creation is outside the entire Multiversity map.

Incorrect. Lucifer never met The Source. He directly says he hasn't the slightest idea what it is, but it's out there. Furthermore, the DC author confirmed directly that infinite Multiverses exist. Pralaya's is one. Perpetua's is another. The Presence has a few as well.

Again, Destiny isn't above the monitors, but his book records the entire Multiversity map.

I agree with that to a certain extent. Not the entire ongoings, just what the Presence covers and nothing more. There is no evidence at all that Destiny can record the ongoings of the Writer and authors avatar, or that Lucifer has ever left the comic book page. There is zero evidence of this and not even remotely a hint of it anywhere in Vertigo. The Presence's void is not The Overvoid because it is white. One of these locations exists beyond the retcon of authors of DC. The other is the void of the Presence where he lays down Creations.

@sleepygypsy: It is off topic because you’re all over the place. You need to start reading a bit slower before you write. I answered your question in the original comment you responded to. How can you not see what is written, yet see what what isn’t?

@sleepygypsy:

No, this is not why we disagree. If I refer to DC comics I'm referring to the real world entity, which includes Overvoid. What I am referring to is Hughes' tweet that Destiny is drawn beyond the Source Wall in the Multiversity Map because he records everything within.

He stated he isn't to be taken literally at that point on the map...and you are assuming this. You'll need to prove Destiny has recorded the author's avatars movements and all the other canons of DC Comics. So far, nobody who agrees with you since 2009 has been able to provide this evidence. It doesn't exist. Your view is subjective on that.

I never claimed otherwise. He went to where the Source is, and ignored him/it.

The Silver City is not part of Creation. So that means Lucifer was far below The Silver City in this below scan that I've shown you. If he can view creation from this point, then he is below the Silver City.

Where is the Silver City on the Map? Wayyyyyy down here. Your argument is listen to the cosmic map visuals only, don't listen to the text on the left side that explains it all and don't listen to the author who made it.

You are picking and choosing what statements from the map you prefer and ignoring all the other information it shows you.

I saw that scan of Grant referring to Nix Uotan as "kind of my author's avatar" but you're reading way too far into that statement.

No no, this guy made this story. He wrote the guidebook. He is the utmost authority on it. We aren't.

Obviously any actual real-life writer has complete control over what happens in the story they've been asked to write. But Nix Uotan isn't all powerful, so his role as "author's avatar" per that interview is pretty much irrelevant.

Hardly, the point of Monitors was that they are beyond the Authors. They ignore author retcon. How is the core plot point of this story irrelevant to you?

Also I've never claimed Lucifer left the comic book page, just that his creation is an additional flaw on the Overvoid, which is representative of the comic book page.

Then he doesn't have the feats anywhere near The Cosmic Armor, let alone The Overvoid. In case you forgot, Nil exists outside of the comic space. Its above Limbo. So if you cannot show me these Biblical level entities housing feats outside of the literal comic space, then their feats don't even touch Nil Monitors.

>The Presence's void is not The Overvoid because it iswhite.

I've never seen any indication that Vertigo's void is an entity unto itself. Plus, Overvoid is shown as being white as well on the Multiversity Map and in the scan where he creates Dax Novu.

This opposition firmly believes that the Vertigo Void is Monitor Mind only because it is colored white. Despite many Void colorations being black in DC and Vertigo of that same void. I'm asking you if you agree with this. Y3kthunder believes the Vertigo Void, the one Lucifer flew around in, is Monitor Mind's Void...because it's white. So do many on your side of this. It was a massive debate that raged for a long time here in other threads. Because its white, because its also a void, are the two reasons why Monitor Mind = Vertigo Void to these users. Do you agree with them?

I'm responding to this part last because it's the most important:

Fair enough.

This is directly contradicted by the Multiversity Map and Rian Hughes' tweets.

Nowhere is this contradicted. Literally nowhere. Dude flat out say don't take his placement picture literally. And that is exactly what you are doing.

It seems we disagree about how much Destiny's book covers. I'm not saying he has authority over the Source Wall and everything within it, I'm saying his book records all of that. I'm saying this because of Rian Hughes' tweet and the Multiversity Map which indicates his book covers the entire thing.

He said not to take it literally for his placement and that his image was used to denote a meta version of the fate of DC Comics. The Endless being listed on the maps left side text saying Endless exist below Monitors of COIE and Countdown, means just that. The image of Destiny has his eyes open, the author says its not an Endless, but a metaphorical represtation of the recording of DC comic events.

The Endless are not meta. Not one person in the world has proven they are since this comic came out in 2014. Not one.

It records all events within the Multiverse with a capital M. Everything in that map. Which means Lucifer's creation was outside the map.

Incorrect. The records of DC Comics are with us. We are visually looking at it. His image is a metaphor, not to be taken literally. The actual Destiny of the Endless is in the maps text on the left side, cited by name.

Also, Grant Morrison made sure to include just one thing out there with Overvoid...and guess what, its Destiny's higher authority named Fate.

The Endless have higher authorities above them, Grants concepts > The Endless, right here confirmed.

I am beyond exhausted having to debunk this over and over. Scans speak for themselves, even if this opposing group refuses to listen to what the map actually says. Page Zoom was all it took to see the endless on the left side mentioned by name and a ton of this crowd (not you specifically) will never in a million years accept it, even when the author himself says nope, don't take his placement literally. You can clearly see on the sketch that he wasn't intended to be placed in the Overvoid and his big head drawing was too big to fit, so a big ol' arrow alongside heaven was drawn to reflect where they are supposed to be.

Grant heard our complaints over it, so he told us in Multiversity that characters name is Fate. Not Destiny of the Endless at the top of the Map. But his meta concept called "Fate"

@sleepygypsy: “ Assuming we are using a composite Presence, he has better feats overall. The Presence as we know it is just an Avatar, a aspect by which the actual being interacts and speaks.

The Presence has never held infinite Multiverses, Overvoid does. The Presence has never had control over other Fictions, Overvoid does and has been stated to contain Meta crossovers as well. The Presence has never interacted with the comic page or any authors, or us, never spoken directly to us as a reader knowing he is in the comic, Monitors and The Empty Hand have. So where are your superior feats for the Presence? I don't see a single scan from you proving it.

Being infinite and eternal.

Carey said he isn't. Sorry.

Being beyond the void.

The void is the empty space the Presence made. Assuming this is the Overvoid is pretty silly. Still no proof Monitor Mind = The Vertigo Presence Void.

Creating an infinite multiverse with realms like Heaven and Hell which themselves are multiverses.

There isn't even one reference to The Presence creating infinite Multiverses. This is legit untrue. The afterlife of a person having their own infinite space to play in does not mean the same as Creation itself.

Creating beings that can create, shape and destroy totality.

Lucifer cannot make a creation on his own and Perpetua can. Perpetua > Lucifer by Carey's own admittance. I'm very happy you used the term totality and I didn't have to bring it up, I was waiting for one of you to say it so I can finally post this twitter response.

Holding the entirety of contemporary DC in his hands.

Incorrect, he held a representation projection of it. He did not actually hold it. You didn't read this comic, did you? Mate, please stop reading the version that you can get online and actually go read the original, these online versions don't have the entire comic book often presented to you. You missed this, because you didn't read the original.

Being capable of recreating beings and bringing them back from conceptual erasure. (Pulled PS out of the OV after he was removed from existence, or reconstructed him from the OV).

The Forger created infinite Multiverses complete with these same concepts, so what? Mandrakk destroyed Meta Concepts...all of them.

Forcibly created a multiverse on the canvas.

No. Overvoid didn't notice it, it was extremely easy for him. Problem here anyway is you think The Presence made DC. Nix Uotan did. Sorry. He is the one who put DC comics there, not The Presence. The story of DC is from Nix, a monitor who thought up a God named The Presence who then filled some multiverses of his fiction.

He is such a foundational power, that all of creation was fading out of existence when he left it (meaning if he died, nothing would be.)

Cute, here is non-existence itself and things that don't exist yet in the author's retcon battling each other. Nil lays above this still.

But if we’re assuming that Rox killed a version of him in FC (He didn’t do it completely since he was alive and well in New 52 and the Vertigo continuity has him chilling, meaning Vertigo nor DC post FC didn’t adhere to what happened in FC regarding the hosts and up) keep in mind that even a weakened and dying Presence could survive in the OM even for a little while, as Rox said. So even weakened and dying, he could travel beyond Nil and the source wall. That’s some insane durability since Nil was able to erase Mandrakk (if you don’t think UE is the same being).

Here is Holly Black saying Vertigo canon is entirely different, as well as DeMatteis. You are factually incorrect.

Nil was able to erase Mandrakk? HUH? They broke through Nil into the Overvoid and Mandrakk "fell" into it...

Where on Earth did The Presence ever interact with Overvoid? What on Earth are you even talking about...

Also, according to Perpetua, the OV isn’t infinite and has an ending. Perpetua herself has also physically tore apart from the OV, meaning it isn’t beyond being damaged to some degree.

Different canon entirely. Overvoid knows about COIE Monitors. Did you read Multiversity? Monitors use the Overvoid, that doesn't mean they are more powerful than it. Like seriously, the big scan that says Overvoid birthed them wasn't enough for you?

The OV can’t really do anything to the Presence whereas the Presence can just draw on him...

Overvoid doesn't even care. Also your response here is 100% subjective without any evidence. Show me proof Overvoid cannot affect the beings that use it. Did you see the big scan here above where it says the Monitors were made by Overvoid...? lol

But drawing or tearing at the OV won’t do anything either so stalemate? Or Presence wins for literally leaving a mark?”

The thing fictions get drawn, thought up on and implemented into by Meta authors will always beat the fictional God that another Monitor made up. The presence is a creation of the Writer. Not the othere way around.

Nonexistent aye? Literally the last line of my first post answered your question, and the question regarding a fight between these two. I mentioned twice I do think comparable via feats.

They aren't even close to being comparable. The Presence cannot get to DC authors Retcon. It is where Grant, DeMatteis and Carey would send him when he is removed from Canon. You misunderstand Limbo. Its where uncanonized DC characters go. Its above Canon. Are you saying The Presence is above the writer and canon...oh wait this is a question you've refused to answer now about 6 times.

That’s why I told you to read slowly...you have a habit of this. You need to have your hand held on a thread to find an answer that has always been there. But can somehow argue stuff that isn’t.

You have a habit of ignoring the authors and introducing subjectivity in place of author statements...which is absurd. You need to have your hand held and explained why your fan theory does not mean more than the authors who created the fiction you are debating. Especially not when DeMatteis disagrees with you.

None of that changes anything about what I said bruh. None of it.

All of it.

Also, the next time you want to slide into my DM’s and talk about how much you’ve been made upset about what I said, remember these threads and how you respond to people. This reaffirms my point why many people have an issue with you.

Your comments don't even slightly emotionally affect me, because your entire voice statement is " Me > The author" which is bias incarnate. You don't care what the authors or guidebooks say, you think your fan theory is way more credible than the authors. You even go as far as citing DeMatteis as your law, and he says you are wrong too.

Your argument is frail and fragile, based on fan opinion and not one statement of fact.

Overvoid is stronger than the authors avatar. So is Mandrakk and Cas and the normal Nil Monitors. You being horrified outright to answer the question of "do you think Grants Avatar is weaker than the Presence or stronger?" is the mark of a failed viewpoint that is as soft as a Peep that has been microwaved.

Next time, read Lucifer 26 for real, instead of skimming Google Image search and presenting bad information.

@sleepygypsy

>He did not say Destiny of the Endless was up there

Agreed, he said his placement there on the map was metaphorical, representing the fact that his book records everything in the Multiversity Map.

Count six times that I have said this outright, and then you respond pretending I've said something I haven't.

@sleepygypsy:

>Haha, so you are saying the Metaphor of Destiny is different from the Destiny of the Endless that is show in the Sphere of Gods?

No, he isn't a metaphor,

AUTHOR SAID HE IS A METAPHOR. You saying he did not say he is just a metaphor is you citing that you are delusional and know it.

>AUTHOR SAID HE IS A METAPHOR.

He said he is "metaphorically above everything" not that he is a metaphorical being or separate from Destiny of the Endless.

He did not say he was a metaphor.

Metaphorically is meant to contrast against the word literally. If he were literally where he was on the map, that would indicate he literally lives in the Overvoid, this is not true. Rian Hughes explained in the exact statement you link that whilst he himself is not present at the location he is drawn in, the reason he was drawn there is that he is metaphorically above everything, recording.

The evidence is clear that Destiny's book records everything in the Multiversity map, per that statement.

Therefore, Lucifer's creation was entirely separate from the Multiversity map, a second "flaw" on the Overvoid, which makes sense since Lucifer went to the Overvoid where the Source was with no issue at all.

Overvoid murderstomps.

Wanking presence without any evidence doesn't make any sense.

Because Presence is only a part of ink aka The Story of DC/Vertigo cosmology.