The Presence vs The Overvoid

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omega_king13

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I know this battle has been done before plenty of times, but whait I want to know is how can the OV be stronger than the Presence when it didn't even know about the DC universe that was on it while the Presence knew everything even that he was created be external forces(I'm guessing he means the writers)?

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deactivated-5ea57ce883196

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Lmao.

omnipotence vs. omnipotence is not allowed.

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EineFaust

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Presence is not omnipotent.

He is not true creator of DC/vertigo universe.

Overvoid murderstomps.

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Stomps

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Presence

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EineFaust

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@stomps:

Based on what?

He is not even omnipotent.

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Stomps

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#6  Edited By Stomps
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EineFaust

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@stomps:

So,You admit you are wrong, don't you?

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omega_king13

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@einefaust: Has it ever been disproven that he’s not omnipotent like the TOAA?

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Y3kthunder

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@omega_king13: yes according to carey thats what he was going for with the presence

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EineFaust

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@omega_king13:

Presence confirmed that he is creation by humanity's imagination.

And,Composite DC cosmology confirmed by DC official debunks Presence's omnipotence.

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Hyoname

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Raven_godKing

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#13  Edited By Raven_godKing

Makes sense to me. When the Presence was talkin about external forces he meant the writers, who if you take Morrisons explanation the writers/ artists are higher than the Overvoid. I don't think it has ever been proven that the Presence is weaker

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Y3kthunder

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#14  Edited By Y3kthunder

@hyoname: its all on preference. Honestly it should either be 2 things A a victory in the presences favor as he had stated omnipotence better feats he is the void etc etc. Or you can look at it another way in which they're essentially the same thing which is ground zero cosmology wise aka that all encompassing void theyre both god. In which it would be a stalemate

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Raven_godKing

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@einefaust: As is the Primal Monitor, but one is defined as omnipotent while the other is the canvas that the DC universe is made on. A being who is omnipotent would know if something were being made on it. PM had no idea, and had to make the Monitors to investigate the DC universe. The whole Morrison's whole meta idea kinda makes no sense

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EineFaust

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@raven_godking:

But,Morrison cosmology is now official.

Vertigo cosmology Presence rules is only part of composite DC universe.

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Revold

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People call the Presence "literally the Judeo Christian God" is basically like saying Marvel Thor is "literally the Norse God Thor". Technically correct but at the same time not really at all

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xearesay

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The Presence is literally a flaw on a page to the Overvoid. Complete mismatch.

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SentryVoid7

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Presence, he is the God of DC's God.

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EineFaust

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Deagonx

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Presence stomps. Lucifer was able to impose himself on the Overvoid and his creation was outside the Multiverse Map created by Morrison, which means Lucifer was able to create a 2nd "flaw" on the Overvoid. Presence is much more powerful than Lucifer was when he did that.

Mismatch in favor of the Presence.

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SleepyGypsy

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Overvoid. The Radiant and Spectre cannot die until The Presence dies first, stated by The Spectre and Radiant in Final Crisis: Revelations.

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One Issue later, they are both dead. Not just their essences. They are destroyed by a Monitor. Which means The Presence lost that War in Heaven.

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El_mago

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overvoid stomps

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Hyoname

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@deagonx said:

Presence stomps. Lucifer was able to impose himself on the Overvoid and his creation was outside the Multiverse Map created by Morrison, which means Lucifer was able to create a 2nd "flaw" on the Overvoid. Presence is much more powerful than Lucifer was when he did that.

Mismatch in favor of the Presence.

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Deagonx

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@sleepygypsy:
Where is stated that they died? All I see is them KO'd. If youre trying to sell me on the idea that Rox Ogama killed *the Presence* off-screen and was then staked by the Green Lantern Corps of all things, you're crazy. There is not nearly enough evidence in those scans to support that conclusion.

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SagaTheLegend

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Overvoid solos Vertigo lmao, The Presence's feats suck in comparison to fodder Nil Monitors, let alone the Overvoid who is a true boundless omnipotent.

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Deagonx

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@sagathelegend said:

Overvoid solos Vertigo lmao, The Presence's feats suck in comparison to fodder Nil Monitors, let alone the Overvoid who is a true boundless omnipotent.

Overvoid isnt omnipotent. He brought forth Dax Novu to study the Flaw, indicating he didnt know everything about it. True omnipotents are also omniscient, they don't need to create angel races to study or contain things.

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SleepyGypsy

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Final Crisis: Revelations visually showed us what happens when The Spectre and Radiant die. This Monitor fed on both of them, drank dry the Servants of God. Your argument that the depleted Green Lantern Corps was stronger than The Radiant and The Spectre is slightly laughable at best. The Presence was destroyed in the war in Heaven.

You've claimed there is no evidence? Here is Kane mentioning a bunch of times that God is being felled at the moment in the war in Heaven. This event pre-dates Darkseid getting shot and falling. This is why Kane was allowed to return, The Presence no longer has a grip on anything at all that he had prior.

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@deagonx said:

@sleepygypsy:

Where is stated that they died? All I see is them KO'd. If youre trying to sell me on the idea that Rox Ogama killed *the Presence* off-screen and was then staked by the Green Lantern Corps of all things, you're crazy. There is not nearly enough evidence in those scans to support that conclusion.

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Yamiyodare

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Overvoid wins.

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Y3kthunder

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Lol an all that above was spectre realizing they were just being tested an by Michaels own words if god was dead there so wouldn't the spectre an radiant an they were not it was darkseid they were referring to this has already been debunked

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Deagonx

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I don't see Spectre and Radiant as being dead in any of those scans. And it's not an argument about the Green Lantern Corps, that's literally what happened on the page. Plus a character stating "God is dead" is hardly prove the Presence was killed. The fact that this all revolves around Apokolips and the "Old Gods" suggests this has more to do with New Genesis than the Presence. The Presence is never even mentioned by name.

Final Crisis: Revelations visually showed us what happens when The Spectre and Radiant die. This Monitor fed on both of them, drank dry the Servants of God. Your argument that the depleted Green Lantern Corps was stronger than The Radiant and The Spectre is slightly laughable at best. The Presence was destroyed in the war in Heaven.

You've claimed there is no evidence? Here is Kane mentioning a bunch of times that God is being felled at the moment in the war in Heaven. This event pre-dates Darkseid getting shot and falling. This is why Kane was allowed to return, The Presence no longer has a grip on anything at all that he had prior.

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@deagonx said:

@sleepygypsy:

Where is stated that they died? All I see is them KO'd. If youre trying to sell me on the idea that Rox Ogama killed *the Presence* off-screen and was then staked by the Green Lantern Corps of all things, you're crazy. There is not nearly enough evidence in those scans to support that conclusion.

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SleepyGypsy

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@sagathelegend@einefaust@el_mago@xearesay

Curious to know what your thoughts on this new evidence is, fellas.

This anti-CAS and Mandrakk crowd asked for some evidence, I have some for them. This group will listen to anything DeMatteis says and use his answers as justification for their viewpoint. So, what happens when DeMatteis disagrees with them entirely? Let's find out how this group responds.

1. DeMatteis confirms Monitors exist in Vertigo publications. One of them passed away via unknown means and was reborn as a character named The Goblin. This was confirmed in JLA 2018, where Mar Novu and the Forger said Monitors cannot die, they simply reform back in the 6th Dimension.

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2. DeMatteis saying do not listen to him, he doesn't know. You get to make up your own answer.

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3. He confirms twice not to take his word, he simply does not know and doesn't want you to listen, but instead, make your own answer up.

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4. If you are going to listen, he thinks Zauriel > The Spectre. Zauriel is one of the Pax Dei hosts. :)

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5. Angels of The Presence are extensions of his emotional spectrum, which were defeated by a Monitor without his powers.

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So there you have it. The man himself saying no to everything the opposition is saying.

By the way, Mandrakk in The Unexpected remade Nil. Nil is beyond DC Authorship retcon. Mandrakk put back a realm that exists beyond the idea of non-existence and DC Retcon, and he did it while starved for power. He put back the place where COIE Monitors pop back into existence, which proves he is far beyond all the COIE Monitors even while depowered.

Case closed, this opposition has no idea what the guidebooks, authors and the comics actually said about this character. Overvoid unwrites The Presence if it wants to. Limbo is where The Presence goes when the author wishes to retcon him.

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SagaTheLegend

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@sleepygypsy: DeMatteis already stated multiple times he lacks knowledge about DC Cosmology, it isn't really his thing and he stated countless times his opinions are totaly subjective, not sure why people use his word, that is just more proof that confirms wha you've been saying all this time.

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Y3kthunder

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None of those scans had anything to do with what your spewing 1st one he says the goblin was a monitor cool moving on.

The next one he said the answer was in the story if it wasnt clear thats because the author didnt make it clear enough.

Next one he says these stories are open to your own interpretation. Not hey don't listen to my word.

Nexthe says he doesn't care for vs fights but he said that he believed that zaurial was channeling the presences power against stranger not spectre.

An for the last of he never said anything about the presences emotional spectrum thats again your own opinion he said his thoughts not emotions.

Gg

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SleepyGypsy

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@sagathelegend: Correct. This group only listens to author statements when they feel like it.

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SleepyGypsy

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#36  Edited By SleepyGypsy

Let's have some fun with this group and see if anyone is willing to even touch this argument I will make. This ENTIREgroup believes Mandrakk from The Unexpected is the same Mandrakk in Final Crisis.

Limbo is where the authors send retcons in this narrative. It is beyond the idea of non existence, is and is not, things that don't exist yet can be there.

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Nil was deleted in Final Crisis, this location is above Limbo.

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Mandrakk is severely weakened in The Unexpected, a shadow of his former self.

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Nil is back. Mandrakk remade it while severely depowered.

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Nil is featured in JLA 2018, it is where Monitors stated THEY CANNOT DIE and will be reborn in Nil.

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From the same comic above, the very next page. Forger understands the difference between The Multiverse and Creation, and the current place they are in: they are in Nil at the moment above. Talking about saving the Multiverse below and that they need to venture to the AntiMatter universe at the edge of Creation...which is below Nil.

Creation...is not inclusive of Nil or Limbo. Never was.

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Show me feats of The Presence, Lucifer, Michael or anyone else of your choosing, reforging a place beyond Meta Retcon of DC authors. Mandrakk did this while severely depowered. GG, indeed.

Mandrakk in his weakest form rekindled Platonic Concepts of non-meaning, beyond Non-existence, beyond Creation, beyond the Multiverse and the retcon of the Meta author. Overvoid wrecks The Presence, even weakened Mandrakk wrecks the Presence.

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Deagonx

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#37  Edited By Deagonx

@sleepygypsy: Show me feats of The Presence, Lucifer, Michael or anyone else of your choosing, reforging a place beyond Meta Retcon of DC authors.

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Easy. According to the Basanos (the living Tarot Cards), when they entered Lucifer's creation they were depowered due to being outside of range of Destiny's book, which belonged to another Cosmos

We Know from Multiversity map that Destiny's book oversees the entire Multiversity, or "Flaw" as you will. This means that Lucifer's creation was distinctly separate from the entire Multiversity map here:

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Neat right? This means that Lucifer's creation was separate from everything on that map, including the Monitor Sphere, and Meta Retcon.

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CyberBlades22

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The Presence seems to just be another form or avatar of the-Overvoid, if that isn't the case then the over-void wins imo.

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SleepyGypsy

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#39  Edited By SleepyGypsy

Here is the author of the cosmic map saying your response is invalid. Also, not one line about the authors, no mention of the authors, no mention of DC Comics, no retcon, nodda in your scan.

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@deagonx said:

@sleepygypsy: Show me feats of The Presence, Lucifer, Michael or anyone else of your choosing, reforging a place beyond Meta Retcon of DC authors.

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Easy. According to the Basanos (the living Tarot Cards), when they entered Lucifer's creation they were depowered due to being outside of range of Destiny's book, which belonged to another Cosmos

We Know from Multiversity map that Destiny's book oversees the entire Multiversity, or "Flaw" as you will. This means that Lucifer's creation was distinctly separate from the entire Multiversity map here:

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Neat right? This means that Lucifer's creation was separate from everything on that map, including the Monitor Sphere, and Meta Retcon.

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SleepyGypsy

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#40  Edited By SleepyGypsy

@deagonx You forgot that page zoom exists. The map debunked your entire post.

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Who do you think drilled the big hole through The Silver City to eat it?

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xearesay

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@sleepygypsy: I recall Dematis not even knowing who Superboy Prime was. Why would any listen to a guy who clearly has no understanding or goal of organizing DC's cosmology?

Morrison on the other hand was being called in by DC to make their damn superstructures like Hypertime.

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He even saids he was given the opportunity to play with the DC multiverse during his interview. DC literally gave this guy the full go ahead to alter the entire cosmology and draw the cosmic map thats posted on their website.

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The notion that Demmattis's word > Morrison's word is just favoritism at best.

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Deagonx

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#42  Edited By Deagonx

@sleepygypsy: Sure, I'm aware that Destiny himself is not past the source wall, but he was placed there for a reason. That reason is that his book covers the entire multiverse. Lucifer's creation was outside that multiverse, as proven by my scans.

Even in the tweets he says "He's above it metaphorically, recording."

His recording did not extend to Lucifer's 2nd multiverse/flaw on the Overvoid.

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SleepyGypsy

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#43  Edited By SleepyGypsy

@deagonx:

You were told he isn't actually there and his placement is not above it. What's your response?

That he is above it. The cosmic map says monitors are above this place, silver city had a hole drilled in it by a monitor and the authors said monitors are beyond the DC gods.

I'll ask again. Where did the presence and lucifer interact with dc and vertigo retcon.

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Deagonx

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#44  Edited By Deagonx

@sleepygypsy

Nope. Not what I said. You're purposefully misconstruing my words because you've lost the argument. I'll walk you through it step by step so that you understand where you went wrong. Let's review:

Per Rian Hughes, thought Destiny himself is not "above" the multiverse, his placement there is symbolic of his book covering everything within the Multiverse, see here:

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There you go. Indisputable proof that Destiny's book records everything in the Multiverse map, which was the purpose of his placement there. Though Destiny the entity himself is not above the Multiverse, his book covers everything within it. This includes the Retcon Zone, Nil, Limbo, the Monitor Sphere, etc. This much is confirmed by the author himself.

Now that we've proven that indisputably, we know from the Basanos here that Lucifer's creation is outside the Multiversity map:

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So, as proven by scans and author's statements, Lucifer created his own Flaw on the Overvoid outside the Source Wall, Nil, and the Monitor Sphere.

I know you're scared of losing arguments and are going to miscontrue my words intentionally again, so I'll state this clearly so you can't ignore it again: Destiny himself is not above the multiverse, but his book records everything within it.

Glad we now agree that Lucifer did this, since you couldn't possibly deny the clear evidence I have given you.

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Y3kthunder

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#45  Edited By Y3kthunder

He isnt there literally but is there metaphorically thats what that author said an you ignore it lol. Meaning his reach expands the multiverse lucifers is past this bruhhhhh

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SleepyGypsy

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#46  Edited By SleepyGypsy

@deagonx said:

@sleepygypsy

Nope. Not what I said. You're purposefully misconstruing my words because you've lost the argument. I'll walk you through it step by step so that you understand where you went wrong. Let's review:

Per Rian Hughes, thought Destiny himself is not "above" the multiverse, his placement there is symbolic of his book covering everything within the Multiverse, see here:

No Caption Provided

There you go. Indisputable proof that Destiny's book records everything in the Multiverse map, which was the purpose of his placement there. Though Destiny the entity himself is not above the Multiverse, his book covers everything within it. This includes the Retcon Zone, Nil, Limbo, the Monitor Sphere, etc. This much is confirmed by the author himself.

Incorrect.

He says his placement is not to be taken literally. What are you doing? Taking his placement literally, which means you are twisting his words entirely.

Now that we've proven that indisputably, we know from the Basanos here that Lucifer's creation is outside the Multiversity map:

You proved you misquoted the author. This is also an assumption without proof, Lucifer never made it past the Source Wall. Who exists past the Source Wall? Nil Monitors.

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So, as proven by scans and author's statements, Lucifer created his own Flaw on the Overvoid outside the Source Wall, Nil, and the Monitor Sphere.

You've proven only that you don't care what the authors said and that you'll inject your own text in their statement responses.

I know you're scared of losing arguments and are going to miscontrue my words intentionally again, so I'll state this clearly so you can't ignore it again: Destiny himself is not above the multiverse, but his book records everything within it.

I know you don't like to listen to the authors on anything at all. Destiny is not in that location, he is listed by name BELOW Monitors on the left side of the map that you forgot to zoom in on and read.

Glad we now agree that Lucifer did this, since you couldn't possibly deny the clear evidence I have given you.

Glad we agree that Overvoid is the comic page and Lucifer and The Presence are creations of Nix Uotan, who is the Authors avatar. Nobody agrees The Presence > The writer? Right...RIGHT?

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...and there goes your entire argument. The authors agreed, the editors agreed, the cosmic map text agreed, the DC guidebook agreed.

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Rijehu

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Assuming we are using a composite Presence, he has better feats overall. The Presence as we know it is just an Avatar, a aspect by which the actual being interacts and speaks.

Being infinite and eternal.

Being beyond the void.

Creating an infinite multiverse with realms like Heaven and Hell which themselves are multiverses.

Creating beings that can create, shape and destroy totality.

Holding the entirety of contemporary DC in his hands.

Being capable of recreating beings and bringing them back from conceptual erasure. (Pulled PS out of the OV after he was removed from existence, or reconstructed him from the OV).

Forcibly created a multiverse on the canvas.

He is such a foundational power, that all of creation was fading out of existence when he left it (meaning if he died, nothing would be.)

But if we’re assuming that Rox killed a version of him in FC (He didn’t do it completely since he was alive and well in New 52 and the Vertigo continuity has him chilling, meaning Vertigo nor DC post FC didn’t adhere to what happened in FC regarding the hosts and up) keep in mind that even a weakened and dying Presence could survive in the OM even for a little while, as Rox said. So even weakened and dying, he could travel beyond Nil and the source wall. That’s some insane durability since Nil was able to erase Mandrakk (if you don’t think UE is the same being).

Also, according to Perpetua, the OV isn’t infinite and has an ending. Perpetua herself has also physically tore apart from the OV, meaning it isn’t beyond being damaged to some degree.

The OV can’t really do anything to the Presence whereas the Presence can just draw on him...

But drawing or tearing at the OV won’t do anything either so stalemate? Or Presence wins for literally leaving a mark.

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Raven_godKing

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#48  Edited By Raven_godKing

Does it matter anymore, I feel like DC steered away from these two, especially with Doomsday Clock. Since Dr. Manhattan removed the Infinite Crisis event and placed it back in the time.

Why doesn't someone ask him or someone related to the topic record the response and it will be hard to argue against

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SleepyGypsy

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#49  Edited By SleepyGypsy

Since when is the Presence > the writer. What an invalid statement you've made here. In no world does anyone believe The Presence is beyond the authors avatar...except this one here.

Hate to break it to you man, but Uotan wrote and "made the mark" on the Presence by creating and writing his story.

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@rijehu said:

Assuming we are using a composite Presence, he has better feats overall. The Presence as we know it is just an Avatar, a aspect by which the actual being interacts and speaks.

Being infinite and eternal.

Being beyond the void.

Creating an infinite multiverse with realms like Heaven and Hell which themselves are multiverses.

Creating beings that can create, shape and destroy totality.

Holding the entirety of contemporary DC in his hands.

Being capable of recreating beings and bringing them back from conceptual erasure. (Pulled PS out of the OV after he was removed from existence, or reconstructed him from the OV).

Forcibly created a multiverse on the canvas.

He is such a foundational power, that all of creation was fading out of existence when he left it (meaning if he died, nothing would be.)

But if we’re assuming that Rox killed a version of him in FC (He didn’t do it completely since he was alive and well in New 52 and the Vertigo continuity has him chilling, meaning Vertigo nor DC post FC didn’t adhere to what happened in FC regarding the hosts and up) keep in mind that even a weakened and dying Presence could survive in the OM even for a little while, as Rox said. So even weakened and dying, he could travel beyond Nil and the source wall. That’s some insane durability since Nil was able to erase Mandrakk (if you don’t think UE is the same being).

Also, according to Perpetua, the OV isn’t infinite and has an ending. Perpetua herself has also physically tore apart from the OV, meaning it isn’t beyond being damaged to some degree.

The OV can’t really do anything to the Presence whereas the Presence can just draw on him...

But drawing or tearing at the OV won’t do anything either so stalemate? Or Presence wins for literally leaving a mark.

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Deagonx

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#50  Edited By Deagonx

@sleepygypsy: For the record, injecting your own text into the quote makes it very hard to read, but here, let's respond to each point.

>Incorrect. He says his placement is not to be taken literally. What are you doing? Taking his placement literally, which means you are twisting his words entirely.

Nope, you're doing it again. I stated clearly that only his book is relevant here, and that per the authors words his book covers everything in the multiversity map. Do you disagree that his book covers everything in the map? Despite the Authors words?

> Destiny is not in that location, he is listed by name BELOW Monitors on the left side of the map that you forgot to zoom in on and read.

I stated over and over again to avoid this exact argument that Destiny isn't in that location, but his book covers the entire multiverse per the authors words and the map. Which proves Lucifer's creation is outside the map because it is outside Destiny's book

>Glad we agree that Overvoid is the comic page and Lucifer and The Presence are creations of Nix Uotan, who is the Authors avatar.

Why would we agree on something that there's no proof of?

>Your 4 pictures

Weird how none of your "evidence" mentions the Presence being created by Nix Uotan, or Lucifer, or even mentions them at all!

So, let's recap. You tell me where we disagree

1. Destiny isn't above the multiverse, he's in the Sphere with the other Endless, per the map.

2. Destiny's book covers the entire multiversity map, per his metaphorical placement there, and Hughes' own words.

3. Lucifer's creation was outside the reach of Destiny's book

4. Ergo, Lucifer's creation is outside the entire Multiversity map