The Presence vs Lucifer And Thought robot

@yasindermann: @etriel: @cosmicbike: Reasoning?

@onlyoneempereor: Because Presence get's treated as being the supreme entity by being stated to be the void beyond all voids. He's omnipotent and responsible in everything in DC which includes platonic archetypal concepts, outcomes, change, etc.

@yasindermann: The Presence > Monitors > Toaa so?

@onlyoneempereor: Yeah.

@yasindermann: wasn’t The Presence killed by Dax Novu in final crisis?

@onlyoneempereor: Matteis already stated that Presence is the supreme in DC. Everything in DC is an aspect of him, which includes archetypal concepts, outcomes, change etc. Only monitors wankers would tell you otherwise

Scan taken out of context by monitor wankers.

In other words, this is a BAIT thread that you made, probably being dictated by MichaelJulius. Because you are already arguing for a conclusion in your mind.

The Presence is an entity nowhere/everywhere, as described by Grant Morrison himself. A description also applied to the Source, that which the Presence was strongly implied to be conceptually allied to on at least four occasions by four different writers.

The Source and its minions also tears pieces of the Overvoid (which TR is made of) and turns them into Multiverses.

The Presence is a point of view of something, that is the source of both Lucifer and TR's power. Beyond everything.

I don’t do threads for anyone. I am not sure who is the top dog in DC, that’s why I made this thread.

There is no “monitor wankers” the monitors have statements and feats that lives up to their Tier 1 level, Odin and Hulk ain’t beating thought robot, seems most of people are lowballing for a single post.

@onlyoneempereor: Dude I had already debunked that scan. To think that Dax Novu killed the Presence means to ignore everything that happened in the Final Crisis. I mean in the same issue it proves that Dax Novu was talking about Darkseid.

You actually didn't debunk shit. You kept repeating the same point again and again about the god being Darkseid despite of him referring to the Pax Dei as "ay of God" and Spectre and Radiant as "servants of God". You guys also kept insisting Presence was the void , but the problem here is Monitor Mind is defined as "non dual , neutral and singular" , whereas Presence actually does have an evil counterpart in the form of Great Evil Beast. So Presence is on the good side. Also the fact that Presence knows how creation got there , whereas Monitor Mind doesn't even know how and who created the DC verse on it. Monitor Mind is outside DC , which houses all fictions , so it technically can't be called a part of DC. What you were arguing for was wrong in the first place , but fortunately for you the users here are idiots , half of who don't understand what the other person is posting and go for the majority of the users. Herd mentality. That is the only reason you got away. Now let me tell you the REAL fault in his arhument.

@etriel:@yasindermann:@johmsmjs36:

You guys completely missed one fault in his argument , which actually should have come to your notice , and is the only reason I'm not sure whether Presence is superior or the Nil Monitors. His arguments were perfect , except for one place where he has conjured up bullshit and you failed to notice that . He says Anti Monitor and Monitor exist within a lane of hypertime. But :

It's clearly said here ( in case someone bothers to read ) , that Anti Monitor and Monitor were the first ones to create everything in DC. And the Overvoid created a superior race of beings called Nil Monitors/Dax Novu to study these Monitor and Anti Monitor. He has conjured up bullshit here because we don't know anything about AM and Monitor still , until Snyder finishes his comic. That's where his opinion comes into play , and he said Anti Monitor exists WITHIN hypertime , although there's no proof as to what he said , given the scan above. And Anti Monitor was stalemated by Spectre...

So , it basically comes down to this. Mandrakk's inferior was stalemated by Presence's inferior. So nobody knows what will happen if these two fight. The answer is : We don't know. If we go purely by Morrison's interpretation , then Mandrakk easily wins. But if we take Snyder into play , we don't know what will happen. We have to wait for the comic to finish. And this is where his argument falls apart , the point that Anti Monitor and Perpetua exists within hypertime is his theory , not a fact.

Presence is the ultimate being of DC, you can't go beyond THE GOD himself responsible for the existence of everything else including Lucifer and the beings that created TR, he is the ultimate divinity.

Presence isn't the "necessary existence/first cause" type of God is he? By his own words he was shaped by something else iirc either the imagination of man or the overvoid.

Also pretty sure Elaine with his powers isn't completely omniscient and thus not the type of literal omnipotent that makes all the rules.

OT: The Presence erases them with 0 diff

The Presence isn't omnipotent by any means.

Wank is, by definition, making an character is stronger than that or that based on fallacies, flawed power scaling, etc. Basically everything you can think off. This is literally what the monitor wankers do all the time. Tier 1 is an subjective tier. That doesn't count, fact is that they are not stronger than the presence. Yes, they wank.

@nwname: I think he is talking about the imagination of man there, wasn't it already confirmed by Lucifer that the Void was basically part of them?

I think guys like Presence and TOAA are shaped by the writers, editors, readers... and they are in a way meant to represent them. Personally i like this interpertation the most and i think it fits pretty much any supreme being of any universe whether we are talking about DC or Marvel or the various anime verses, etc...

And btw Al has a very high opinion of Marvel abstracts, to the point where even he even says these beings are beyond his own understanding and asking him if one abstract beats another is like asking if the sunset could beat the concept of sorrow, pretty much confirming that these beings at the top are beyond just the "physical" concepts.

In recent years Al has been pushing to redefine Marvels abstracts, he has been pushing towards more of the divine aspect of things the way Presence, Lucifer, Michael, etc... are.

Anyway i moved off topic here, but my point in all of this was, no matter what universe you look "divine" beings are the top dog of each universe.

@nwname:

The Presence is infinite and eternal, always existed. He isn't a created being. It states so in that very scan.

That he is shaped, is referring to how the Presence adopts personas based on the belief systems of Humanity.

We can refer to how the Endless literally are presented in the Greek Pantheon in DC in Sandman Orpheus.

And how Michael Demiurgos has an aspect of himself in Hinduism that he can frequently transform into.

@fyron: You do realize that the Overvoid has an ending right? Lmfao.

You getting triggered, and bringing your reddit wank/Monitor worship to this forum isn't gonna change shit.

@etriel: "Even i was shaped by forces external to me" sure doesn't sound the same as "i took the forms people believe me to be". That won't be "shaped" and sure as hell won't be "forces external" to him if it was just the imagination of the people he himself made to last detail. Eternal doesn't necessarily mean without beginning/uncreated either it can just be that he has no end coming.

Except that Dream of the Endless is literally bounded by rules of the First Order, whose leader, Dream literally called "Shekinah" which is a Jewish word ascribed to the Abrahamic God, IE, the Presence. Same rules, that literally got him killed when Dream screwed up.

It's even implied several times in Ostrander's Spectre run, that the Presence has an aspect of himself in several religions.

And several times, the Presence was strongly associated/identified with the Source, which creates Mythological Gods literally. Meaning that Dream merely shapes the creation, of that is associated with the Presence.

And in JM De Matteis's spectre run, it is established that Humanity, including the DC Multiverse, is the Presence's dream.

Taking a statement out of context, into a certain interpretation, that is ludicrously debunked by several writers. Is a huge leap of logic. To say the least.

@fyron: Kept repeating? So, you haven't even read the comic. The whole point of Final Crisis was that Darkseid was dying and dragging down Reality to a singularity of darkness. Killing Specgre and Radiants aren't as impressive. In Final Crisis: Revelations it was made clear that Presence was stopping both of them from interfering against Darkseid and Anti Life. Hell, normal humans were overwhelming them. Spectre was also hostless in the end and Radiant refuses to fight back. They were basically sitting ducks. Read the story and its context before spouting "He is talking about Presence." Either you don't have good comprehensive ability or haven't even touched the Final Crisis. Why do you think Superman was going to use the MiracleMachine. Oh, Yes because Presence came to his dreams and said that he was dying. Presence was basically manipulating events in Final Crisis Revelations.

@etriel: Actually, Canonically Source>>>>> Perpetua who could manipulate Overvoid. There have been many instances like when Spectre entered the Source and found "God" that implies Presence= Source. And Morrison has said that Overvoid is nothing but a different manifestation of God. The Archangels and Divine see The Presence as manifestation of God, the New Gods see The Source and The Monitor see Overvoid as God.

Im not denying him taking shapes according to beliefs of humanity. Im just thinking the "shaped by external forces" is not connected to any of these and actually has the meaning it implies by itself, that 1- There are forces outside of Presences control. 2- Whatever those are, have shaped the Presence.

I have not read sandman yet so i don't know all the context but "forces external" definitely cant logically mean "people i dreamed up" which are literally a part of his own being.

@nwname:

Oh, but it is. "Forces External" was confirmed by Carey to be the beliefs of Humanity, related to Ostrander's Spectre Run, which in itself, is a direct tie-in to Sandman, and which Ostrander clarified, that the Presence is merely adapting several beliefs.

It's not meant to be taken literally.

The Presence's aspect (Shekinah) was literally unaffected by Dream's retcon of the Multiverse as well.

The Entire Sandman Continuum literally explains this to you as to how this works. When you read the full context of the Mythology. It's easily explained away. This really isn't hard.

Matteis already clarified that the Presence is in all and beyond all. The Overvoid is confirmed by Snyder to not be the end-all-be-all of DC's Cosmology, as it has an "ending" according to the JLA 2018 run.

nope

@xanman2000: Are u STUPID?!?!?!?

The presence stomps Lucy obviously lmao but the dc cosmology is very weird right now