The Last Dragonborn vs The Tarnished

The problem is that a certain someone is trying to use that to downplay Elden Ring, and I was just pointing out that the same thing applies to TES. There is nonsensical stuff like that in both games, but a double standard is here. And only one side is getting downplayed for this. Whereas the other gets a free pass for some reason.

I am definitely Gonna CAV this topic

Also disagree with this. The Hero of Kvatch has way better feats, and his magic isn't watered down like the Dovahkiin's is. They massively nerfed magic in Skyrim, and mages are not what they used to be. He can't even use basic fortify attribute spells, or levitate. Absolute N'wagh that he is. How in the world do you go calling yourself a mage, but you can't even cast levitate? On top of that the Hero of Kvatch's rogue gallery is just way more impressive. Pelinal Whitestrake. Mannimarco. Mankar Camoran when he's empowered by the Mysterium Xarxes. Which made him so powerful that he could create Paradise. Not unlike how Jagar Tharn created a realm in Oblivion with the Staff of Chaos. The Hero of Kvatch actually scales to characters with explicit universal feats. The Dovahkiin does not, and even Miraak's best feat is separating Solstheim from Skyrim.

Overall, and i think this will be my last comment on this thread because all points have been made on all sides in terms of lore and gameplay.

Lorewise i give it to the tarnished i a fight. Alduin, Mirrak, Tsun are all close to or at god level, but good chance only Mirrak was at full power when killed by the DB. Tsun was only there to test the DB's worth to enter the Hall of heros so probably not a great example of a full fight. Alduin does consume worlds, and that probably stands as the DB's best feat in lore considering we know it took Lorkhan, the god of war, to beat him in the past, and he is the first born of Akatosh, the dragon god of time and chief deity in TES universe. but the tarnished potentially scales to beings with much more defined feats and even if theyre not in their prime when beaten that doesn't mean they aren't impressive wins. The only thing i say is that it takes the tarnished many potential deaths to accomplish their destiny whereas the Dragonborn does what they do without canonically dying once.

Gameplay, i stand by my statement that the Dragonborn is simply overpowered by the ways he has to increase his strength with weapons, magic and stealth. Shouts effect creatures of all sizes and given the tarnished is just a humansized, unrelenting force could simply rag doll the tarnished and follow up with appropriate killing blows. Malenia has just over 33,000hp when you fight her. Today, without mods or anything, i crafted a set of armor with 77,409 rating and a dragonborn greatsword with 17,922 striking power. 2 swings, she's dead, and probably couldn't even touch me. Its a broken system but it leaves no real room for doubt in the gameplay. Tarnished armor is only ever as good as it is when you pick it up unless they add an upgrade system down the line and the weapons have a cap as to how good they can get. Tarnished has to slow down or stay immobile to cast their magic, DB only has to stay still to cast master level spells but could spam with expert level spells with full mobility without needing to use any actual magicka. once again, broken. Sneak level maxed out at 100 with all perks, the dragonborn could walk around a battlefield and backstab with an equally OP dagger for x15 damage or hit them with a OP bow at x3 power from a distance so far the tarnished couldn't see (the videos of this ive seen are ridiculous).

All in all, up and down, im glad i was able to have this debate with people who were interested with the question, only know one person in my personal life who has played both games, and for all we know somewhere down the line somewhere like Death Battle might deep dive into the full lore, look at everything objectivly, and try to give an accurate answer. But that answer may still make half of the ppl who watch it unhappy. But its the idea of seeing two titans fighting that gets people passionate to see it happen and talk about it. Thanks everyone, no matter what side you're on

@i_v_l:

Pure wank lol, the Rahdan the Tarnished fights doesn't use his full power on the tarnished the Rahdan he fights is the one that gets harmed by fodder knights with spears (1:13)

Also complete bullshit on your part. They achieve nothing against Radahn, and they're basically like gnats. The Cleanrot Knights are Malenia's very best. Who are even able to endure the scarlet rot to an extent.

Not only that you don't even know Mehrunes Dagger and the Bitter Spear are both creations of Dagon but the Dagger is the strongest since it's actually infused with his power and unique unlike the multiple copies of spears he has.

Yet more bullshit on your part. I never said they weren't both created by Mehrunes Dagon. I said they were completely different weapons because they are, and one is MUCH more powerful than the other. It's the Bitter Spear by the way. This is like trying to say the device Galactus uses to devour planets is as powerful as the Ultimate Nullifier because they're both created by the same guy. They don't have the same feats or even the same accolades.

Imagine unironically arguing that the Spear of Bitter Mercy is weaker than Mehrune's Dagger. When it's powerful enough to outright defeat and banish Mehrunes Dagon himself. It's objectively more powerful than Mehrune's Dagger by feats and accolades.

One of the more mysterious artifacts is the Spear of Bitter Mercy. Little to nothing is known about the Spear. There are no recorded histories but many believe it to be of Daedric origin. The only known legend about it is its use by a mighty hero during the fall of the Battlespire. The hero was aided by the Spear in the defeat of Mehrunes Dagon and the recapturing of the Battlespire. Since that time, the Spear of Bitter Mercy has made few appearances within Tamriel. —Yagrum Bagarn, Tamrielic Lore

The Tarnished will get sent to Oblivion from one strike regardless of his "death immunity" he's fidder to the Daedric princes.

His soul is safeguarded by the Greater Will and other Outer Gods like the Frenzied Flame. On top of that things that explicitly destroy souls? Can't destroy his soul.

The rest of your post is trying to scale shitty Elden Ring cosmology ignoring the fact everyone and their mother by the time the Tarnished fights are only a shadow of their former selves thanks to Malenia's rot.

That's literally only the people in Caelid and the Haligtree. Have you even played the videogame? The scarlet rot only exists in a few places. Say for example the Lake of Rot. Which is another one near one of the Eternal Cities.

Radahn himself wasn't weakened by it. It drove him mad instead, and made him behave like a wild beast. He is still able to hold all of those stars in place. It made him less skilled. Not any less powerful.

You also can't quantify the Greater Wills Avatar, it's only feat is getting fodderized by garbage Tarnished.

It literally creates a universe immediately after it appears, and connects it to the parallel Erdtress across the multiverse. Pay attention.

Dovahkiin throws fodder into lake and freezes him to an enternal winter.

He can summon a Frost Astronach and leave it in the lake to make sure it never defrosts. Gg no re

Ice magic is an actual fucking thing in Elden Ring, and extremely commonplace. You keep on bringing up things The Tarnished has already dealt with before. To say nothing of all your double standards you employ against Elden Ring. When those same exact arguments you use can be applied to TES.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Snow+Witch+Sorceries

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Frozen+Needle

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Icerind+Hatchet

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Frozen+Lightning+Spear

It's not like The Tarnished fought a dragon that did exactly that before.

#sarcasm

@northstrider: Meh why even waste your time on him. He clearly is an ER hater.

I can't let his lies about about both TES and ER stand. He is misrepresenting both sides of the argument, and his frequent use of the same arguments people use against TES over at Spacebattles against ER is absolutely hypocritical of him.

He should know better.

@northstrider: hm that's also true.

isn't the tarnished your character in ER? how can anyone say the main character is immortal and unkillable?? cleary the character isnt as there are so many traps that 1 shot you (boulders, the moving carts, spinning blades etc).

Immortal in the sense he will come back to life at a grace I guess.

Also gameplay =/= actual power levels etc. Literally the same thing for Dragonborn.

@takenstew22: Okay so immortal in the sense that they can reload saves/checkpoints? that would apply to any video character that uses these mechanics then lol. seemed to me people where taking this literally here.

Also gameplay =/= actual power levels etc. Literally the same thing for Dragonborn.

i can see that, but would you consider the logic that if traps can 1 shot you regardless of progression in game (gear, spells/amps, power overall) then it stands to reason that is the intended limits of the character?

in skyrim falling from great height will auto kill your character upon impact, but with a spell (the ghost shout) you can overcome this limitation. that isn't the same as fall damage killing you regardless, which would indicate specific limitations upon the characters durability (impact forces of the fall) without external factors preventing this happening (like listed above).

people will probably handwave this some fallacy dishonesty like "feat for the traps" but to me eldin ring is pretty damn clear with their limitations. its why these soul games are so tedious and essentially a you died simulator. its entirely about playing smarter not harder.

no dog in this fight btw. just found it perplexing the argument about immortality etc.

It's not just a gameplay mechanic. We see The Tarnished get resurrected. The player character is dead in the beginning cut-scene, and so are all of the Tarnished. They get resurrected by grace. The energy. Not the grace site. They were brought back by the power of the Greater Will, and sent to the Lands Between to mend the Elden Ring.

Literally the first thing you see happen when you start a new game.

Ensha is another Tarnished who ripped out his own skeleton and used it as armor.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Royal+Remains+Set

Helm graced with gold human bones.
Worn by the unspeaking adherent of Sir Gideon the All-Knowing.

Slowly replenishes HP when HP is reduced.

It is said that the bones belong to an ancient lord - the soulless king. The lord of the lost and desperate, who was known as Ensha.

This may also mean that The Tarnished don't have souls. Just like Those Whose Live In Death. Since it notes that Ensha was soulless.

What is keeping TLD from tearing The Tarnished's soul apart or dominating its mind? From what I can see in this thread, The Tarnished's "immortality" is that it's just being constantly resurrected. Something like putting the soul back into the body. This won't help, as Soul Tear would simply destroy souls, reconstruct them, and re-implant them into The Tarnished's body, which would already be under TLD's will then. Besides, lmao to the idea that Dovahkiin's magic is somehow "limited". He read all the Black Books. Ogmha Infinium was recognized by them by Hearmeus Mora himself as only the first step on the stairs to power.

Besides that, Deathblight which also permanently kills immortals by destroying their souls can't do so against the player character. Which gives credence to the notion that some Tarnished simply don't have souls to begin with.

@northstrider: so are you taking this at face value that the character cannot be killed/die?

They're literally dead in the opening cinematic, and we see them get resurrected by grace. I am saying they are immortal, and can't die permanently due to crazy regeneration. Due to the fact that every major plot relevant Tarnished is brought back to life in the opening cinematic. We see this happen, and that they're all corpses when it does. Gideon is even in his coffin, and a decrepit corpse. Horah Loux was killed by a rival chieftan. Etc, etc, etc. All these people are characters in the story.

@northstrider: Okay, that's a fair compromise I guess. It seemed to me people were inferring that the battle was spite because the ER character cannot be killed (so no win condition). Which didn't make sense to me, because you can die at almost every turn in the game to many things.

The Only Way You can argue That Alduin is superior to the Last Dragonborn is ignoring the entire meaning of the Prophecy of Dragonborn , ignoring Statements from Miraak and About Miraak and ignore the statement from Alduin directly about how his power have increased in sovngarde .

The Dovahkiin specifically had a shout that forcibly stripped Alduin of his godhood and made him into a mortal. It's functionally impossible for the Dovahkiin to even hurt Alduin unless he has learned Dragonrend. Which, word-for-word, forces a creature to become finite and mortal. The words are literally Mortal Finite Temporary. Applying a debuff that allows him to hurt Alduin. Not only did the Dovahkiin not fight Alduin in his true form which is bigger than the planet? He also needed to learn a specific shout, and considering that regardless of whether you defeat Miraak first or not you still need Dragonrend? It's clear that Miraak was blowing hot air when he claimed he could defeat him, and that was his ego talking. We don't even know if Miraak learned Dragonrend. The Dovahkiin even if he has defeated Miraak beforehand? Has to use that shout against Alduin.

I wish Comic Vine had this type of good debating style across all threads consistently. These are people who know their source material and don't attempt to lowball the others opposition.

Just wanted to say that. Move on.

@northstrider:

The Dovahkiin specifically had a shout that forcibly stripped Alduin of his godhood and made him into a mortal. It's functionally impossible for the Dovahkiin to even hurt Alduin unless he has learned Dragonrend. Which, word-for-word, forces a creature to become finite and mortal. The words are literally Mortal Finite Temporary. Applying a debuff that allows him to hurt Alduin.

do you have any furthur evidence that Dragonrend actually weakens a Dragon other than just making them vulnerable and just forcing them to land? I mean via the Quest Alduin's bane , it didn't seem there was any form of implications that Dragonrend completely renders Alduin immovable and they still had to use the Elder Scrolls to actually do something , Parthurnax's text also implies it because they are introduced to concepts they cannot take and their mind is unable to comprehend it , seems more to be a mental thing.

Your kind - joorre - mortals - created it as a weapon against the dov… the dragons. Our hadrimme, our minds cannot even… comprehend its concepts

- Paarthurnax

I cannot tell you in detail. I never heard it used. Kogaan. It was the first Thu'um created solely by mortals. It was said to force a dragon to experience the concept of Mortality. A truly vonmindoraan… incomprehensible idea to the immortal dov.

- Paarthurnax

so do you have furthur evidence that Dragonrend does anything more then taking away Alduin's completely Invulnerability by making his mind unstable?

Not only did tje Dovahkiin not fight Alduin in his true form which is bigger than the planet?

that comes from a Post Morrowind interview with Michael Kirkbride , which is explicitly contradicted via other canon in universe sources on how Alduin ends the world such as The Pockect Guide to the Empire and Esbern's Prophetic Visions.

He also needed to learn a specific shout, and considering that regardless of whether you defeat Miraak first or not you still need Dragonrend? It's clear that Miraak was blowing hot air when he claimed he could defeat him, and that was his ego talking. We don't even know if Miraak learned Dragonrend. The Dovahkiin even if he has defeated Miraak beforehand? Has to use that shout against Alduin.

I am not talking about Miraak's statement regarding Alduin at all , there are multiple other implications lf it but if we are playing the game of " Dragonborn must know this to beat Alduin even if he has beaten Miraak " , the same goes other way too as no matter where you are in the story , No matter if you have beaten Alduin or not , Hermaeus Mora comments without the final word of power you cannot even Hope of defeating Miraak

I know what you want: to use you power as Dragonborn to bend the world to your will. Here then is the knowledge you need, although you did not know you needed it. The second Word of Power. Use it to bend the wills of mortals to your purpose. But this is not enough. Miraak knows the final Word of Power. Without that, you cannot hope to surpass him. Miraak served me well, and he was rewarded. I can grant you the same power as he wields, but all knowledge has its price.

- Hermaeus Mora

no matter if you have bested Alduin or not , Miraak's Dragon aspect about is displayed as a power beyond even the Dragonborn's potential , which even includes the potential to Defeat Alduin

Yelling the Dragon Aspect Shout, his form is imbued with power - a power you cannot hope to achieve.

Skyrim Prima

prime also backs up Hermaeus Mora's words , even if you were considering that it might be mora's attempt at Manipulation but indeed the Dragonborn nerds the Final Word of Power in order to face Miraak

But this is not enough; you must seek the final Word of Power in order to face Miraak

Skyrim Prima

and this is not even the statement I was talking about but rather the marketting campaign directly implying Miraak's Superiority to Alduin and all other Villains In Elder Scrolls V.

With this official add-on for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, journey off the coast of Morrowind, to the island of Solstheim. Encounter new towns, dungeons, and quests, as you traverse the ash wastes and glacial valleys of this new land. Become more powerful with shouts that bend the will of your enemies and even tame dragons. Your fate, and the fate of Solstheim, hangs in the balance as you face off against your deadliest adversary – the first Dragonborn

so Miraak being stronger then Alduin doesn't exactly contradict anything and there is quiet a bit evidence for it , Miraak's statement just works as a secondary argument supporting the primary rather then the primary argument itself.

Try hurting Alduin at all without using Dragonrend on him once. It's not possible. He's literally invulnerable, and set to god mode. That only turns off if you use Dragonrend on him at least once.

There is no way Miraak is actually more powerful than Alduin. Alduin is literally an aspect of the Aka. The Dragon God. Child to Akatosh, or depending on which you lore you prescribe to brother to Akatosh. As Aka and Akatosh might actually be different beings, and both Alduin and Akatosh are aspects of him. As Aka is supposed to be the Dragon Made Whole. Other aspects include Auri-El and Alkosh.

Miraak would have to be outright multiversal to be on the same level as Alduin. Let alone more powerful than him.

Dragonborn is arguably the most powerful video game protagonist, Elder Scrolls lore is absolutely batshit crazy

You could combine all the From Soft universes and they'd still get clapped by Dragonborn very easily

Nope. He's not even the most powerful TES protagonist. Both The Hero of Kvatch and the Nerevarine blow him out of the water. Especially the latter but even the former has got him beat in every area except the thu'um.

He's somewhere between planetary to star level. Whereas The Hero of Kvatch and the Nevervarine are outright universal, and that's before the former becomes a Daedric Prince and the latter masters CHIM to the point he could beat the Brass God. Afterwards they're outright multiversal.

He doesn't outmatch The Tarnished.

@northstrider:

Try hurting Alduin at all without using Dragonrend on him once. It's not possible. He's literally invulnerable, and set to god mode. That only turns off if you use Dragonrend on him at least once.

yea but what makes you think thats just entirely power but the invulnerability that Alduin possesses is also not a result of his clearly complex existance and such? and if Alduin is like incomparably more powerful then Dragomborn , he has no reason to fear The Last Dragonborn , It just seems like Alduin attempts to piggy bank off on His Immortality and Invulnerability and the fact that he " cannot be slain here " rather than actually completely oveepowering the Last Dragonborn , that is what Alduin cites as the reason for why The Last Dragonborn cannot prevail against him.

Meyz mul, Dovahkiin (You've become strong, Dragonborn). You have become strong. But I am Al-du-in (Destroyer-Devourer-Master), Firstborn of Akatosh! Mulaagi zok lot! (My strength is the greatest!) I cannot be slain here, by you or anyone else! You cannot prevail against me. I will outlast you... mortal!

- Alduin

while Alduin was stated by the Prima to have become completely scared of Dragonborn and his dialogue as I posted above shows that as he is talking of outlasting via his immortality

The World-Eater fears you, Dragonborn!

- Skyrim Prima

There is no way Miraak is actually more powerful than Alduin. Alduin is literally an aspect of the Aka. The Dragon God. Child to Akatosh, or depending on which you lore you prescribe to brother to Akatosh. As Aka and Akatosh might actually be different beings, and both Alduin and Akatosh are aspects of him. As Aka is supposed to be the Dragon Made Whole. Other aspects include Auri-El and Alkosh.

and just like Hircine in Elder Scrolls III : Bloodmoon and the representative of the celestials and the Apex Stone that holds and suppressed the power of the celestials , both these entities are functioning with Avatars and such as they aren't physical entities but literal concepts , I am implying that Miraak is more powerful then the physical avatar of Alduin , same way he can be more powerful then the apex stones sealed Celestials, I agree with the Hypothetical true form Alduin completely deconstructing Miraak but just not what we saw in Skyrim.

Miraak would have to be outright multiversal to be on the same level as Alduin. Let alone more powerful than him

I mean , if Arum Khal can create a Universe, same with Mankar Camoran and Jagar Tharn ( overpowered by The Hero of Kvatch and The Eternal champion respectively , who are both in a similar state as Last Dragonborn without shouts , the same Last Dragonborn Miraak stomps without all the words of bend will ) , Why is Multiversal Miraak beyond any reason?

@maulsmacker:

I am implying that Miraak is more powerful then the physical avatar of Alduin , same way he can be more powerful then the apex stones sealed Celestials, I agree with the Hypothetical true form Alduin completely deconstructing Miraak but just not what we saw in Skyrim.

This physical avatar doesn't even have any feats to imply he is universal let alone multiversal. He doesn't even achieve something akin to causing the Blood Moon. That feat itself, changing the moon, is universal because it's actually Lorkhan's corpse and infinite in size. The aspect of Hircine on Nirn is powerful enough to do that.

I mean , if Arum Khal can create a Universe, same with Mankar Camoran and Jagar Tharn ( overpowered by The Hero of Kvatch and The Eternal champion respectively , who are both in a similar state as Last Dragonborn without shouts , the same Last Dragonborn Miraak stomps without all the words of bend will ) , Why is Multiversal Miraak beyond any reason?

Both Mankar Camoran and Jagar Tharn required powerful artifacts in order to do this. The Mysterium Xarxes and the Staff of Chaos respectively, and by feats they completely eclipse the likes of the Dovahkiin or Miraak. I am not buying that either would stand a chance against them. The Dovahkiin doesn't have the feats for it, or scaling to someone with the feats for it.

Miraak himself only has fracturing a continent under his belt. Which while impressive does not imply he is on the level of Mankar Camoran or Jagar Tharn.

Yeah sorry, I've read your argument and it's pretty bad

You keep saying things but aren't actually explaining why and just repeating yourself

@maulsmacker: I commend you for your argument and using evidence, unlike @northstrider who basically is using his own whacky interpretation and fanfic

I am literally explaining exactly why he is wrong, and all he has are unsubstantiated claims not supported by feats or Michael Kirkbride.

The only reason you're saying otherwise is because you haven't been paying attention to what I've said.

Evidence? What he has are unsubstantiated claims that are not supported by feats, and him scaling the Dovahkiin and Alduin and Miraak to characters they've NEVER even met. Only fanfiction I see here is "the Dovahkiin is the most powerful protagonist in all videogames ever."

@northstrider: now some rereadings lead me to believe it's not even that clear that Tharn used the powers of the Staff of Chaos , while its true that Tharn took all the powers of the Staff of Chaos , its never implied that he siphoned all the magical energies of it into himself but rather its implied that he passed the Energies of the Staff of chaos to the Jewel of fire

I had expected that with all eight pieces together, the Staff of Chaos would activate and free the Emperor. None of this has occurred, and I finally know why. Held by Tharn is a gem of the rarest qualities. Legend has that it is a star fallen from the sky, for it glows with an inner flame. This is the Jewel of Fire, and the crucible of Tharn's life force. It is also the thing in which Tharn has suffused all of the energy of the Staff. If you can touch the Staff to this Jewel, the release of that combined energy may be enough to destroy the Staff of Chaos and open the gate between worlds. If you are successful, Tharn will no doubt be destroyed as well.

This physical avatar doesn't even have any feats to imply he is universal let alone multiversal. He doesn't even achieve something akin to causing the Blood Moon. That feat itself, changing the moon, is universal because it's actually Lorkhan's corpse and infinite in size. The aspect of Hircine on Nirn is powerful enough to do that.

are you implying Alduin's Physical avatar being universal let alone Multiversal is an exaggeration? because I disagree , its the physical avatar that have all its implcations as the world eater not the conceptual true form at all , the Narrative of Skyrim potrays Alduin , as of Skyrim as a Mundus ending threat , there is never any implication there is a true form of Alduin at works outside that is gonna end Mundus , but the one we see during the events of Elder Scrolls V.

Both Mankar Camoran and Jagar Tharn required powerful artifacts in order to do this. The Mysterium Xarxes and the Staff of Chaos respectively,

the power they gained from the mysterium xarxes and The Staff of Chaos did not stomp the latter from being threatened via the greatest imperial mages and the prior being overpowered by Hero of Kvatch, though you can argue thats more a feat for the Hero of Kvatch, but the prior stands.

and by feats they completely eclipse the likes of the Dovahkiin or Miraak.

Tharn genuinely felt rivalled via the five powerful mages and felt the need to eliminate them as they offered competition

Unknown to you, the Imperial Battlemage, Jagar Tharn, (whose audacity in whisking the Emperor away is related above) secretly offered Mehrunes Dagon, the Daedric Prince of Darkness and Destruction, a deal on the Battlespire. One condition was attached — Dagon and his heinous followers had to kill all 5 battlemages to eliminate competition for Jagar Tharn's lofty position as the Imperial Battlemage. The carnage began, as the Battlespire was overrun with Dagon's minions. The governing battlemages were being popped like grapes

he is a powerful individual , but not on the level where we can defenitively consider him powerful enough to surpass genuine powerful prisoners.

I am not buying that either would stand a chance against them. The Dovahkiin doesn't have the feats for it, or scaling to someone with the feats for it.

The Dragonborn via Neloth is implied to be the second most powerful Dragomborn of all time , scaling above either Tiber Septim ( who The Dragonborn is compared to the entire journey ) or Ysmir Wuulfharth ( another one who is implied to be somehow connected to Dragonborn , as Greybeards called the Dragonborn Ysmir at many points ) , both individuals having multiversal feats of their own ( moving the moon and manipulating the multiverse via the Thu'um )

Miraak himself only has fracturing a continent under his belt. Which while impressive does not imply he is on the level of Mankar Camoran or Jagar Tharn.

Miraak also has quiet a few statements of being an unstoppable force for Tamriel as a whole and the quote of the deadliest opponent in Skyrim , by the feat only Logic You can argue Arum Khal is a superior combatant to The champion of Cyrodill , but that is clearly not the intent as displayed by Khal's defeat via The Vestige.

There is no reason to get this worked up over Polygons guys

@maulsmacker:

are you implying Alduin's Physical avatar being universal let alone Multiversal is an exaggeration? because I disagree , its the physical avatar that have all its implcations as the world eater not the conceptual true form at all , the Narrative of Skyrim potrays Alduin , as of Skyrim as a Mundus ending threat , there is never any implication there is a true form of Alduin at works outside that is gonna end Mundus , but the one we see during the events of Elder Scrolls V.

Yes, because Alduin does not have the feats for it in his gimped stated we see him in during Skyrim. Point to a single feat in Skyrim where we see his physical avatar do something that is universal or multiversal in scale. You can't find it because it doesn't exist in the game. Alduin isn't there to fulfill his destiny, and wants to enslave the world instead. His motivation is completely different and he betrayed his duty due to ambition, and a desire for conquest.

the power they gained from the mysterium xarxes and The Staff of Chaos did not stomp the latter from being threatened via the greatest imperial mages and the prior being overpowered by Hero of Kvatch, though you can argue thats more a feat for the Hero of Kvatch, but the prior stands.

None of whom the Dovahkiin actually even meets. You keep trying to scale Alduin's minuscule avatar, the Dovahkiin, and Miraak to characters they've NEVER encountered or even fought before. That's not how you do scaling. There needs to at least be some sort of direct comparison between them. A fight or something like that.

Tharn genuinely felt rivalled via the five powerful mages and felt the need to eliminate them as they offered competition

Unknown to you, the Imperial Battlemage, Jagar Tharn, (whose audacity in whisking the Emperor away is related above) secretly offered Mehrunes Dagon, the Daedric Prince of Darkness and Destruction, a deal on the Battlespire. One condition was attached — Dagon and his heinous followers had to kill all 5 battlemages to eliminate competition for Jagar Tharn's lofty position as the Imperial Battlemage. The carnage began, as the Battlespire was overrun with Dagon's minions. The governing battlemages were being popped like grapes

The fact that these mages were so powerful that a Daedric Prince had to deal with them means nothing to you? That's a point in their favor. That Jagar Tharn needed the help of Mehrunes Dagon in order to butcher the lot.

he is a powerful individual , but not on the level where we can defenitively consider him powerful enough to surpass genuine powerful prisoners.

And now we're scaling all prisoners to each other, and to characters they've never met before again. You are too liberal with scaling, and that's the problem here. You even scale between characters who have never even met each other.

The Dragonborn via Neloth is implied to be the second most powerful Dragomborn of all time , scaling above either Tiber Septim ( who The Dragonborn is compared to the entire journey ) or Ysmir Wuulfharth ( another one who is implied to be somehow connected to Dragonborn , as Greybeards called the Dragonborn Ysmir at many points ) , both individuals having multiversal feats of their own ( moving the moon and manipulating the multiverse via the Thu'um )

The Dragonborn is not multiversal. He's not on the level of legitimate Daedric Princes who are not nerfed, but you're for some reason acting like he is. You are confusing him for The Hero of Kvatch and the Nerevarine. They have got the feats. He does not have them, or even any scaling to them. He only encounters the Hero of Kvatch as Sheogorath, and during that encounter it's clear that The Dovahkiin is completely out of his depth. Being forced to go along with his games if he wants to escape.

Miraak also has quiet a few statements of being an unstoppable force for Tamriel as a whole and the quote of the deadliest opponent in Skyrim , by the feat only Logic You can argue Arum Khal is a superior combatant to The champion of Cyrodill , but that is clearly not the intent as displayed by Khal's defeat via The Vestige.

Unsubstantiated claims are not feats. By feats The Hero of Kvatch has comparable ones, and the Vestige is yet another character these people do not meet. Now you're scaling The Dovahkiin to The Vestige. When once again they're separated by entire eras, and the former doesn't even know about his existence. Liberal scaling like this makes no sense. It's like scaling Cell to Beerus when they've never even fought before.

I am not even upset here. He is the one that started getting salty over facts first, and unironically started wanking the Dovahkiin to being the most powerful protagonist in all videogames ever. As well as calling the truth "fanfiction."

If anyone has been writing fan-fiction it's you guys.

The Last Dragonborn solos the whole of Elden Ring. LMFAO at the Last Dragonborn scaling to the other protagonists, the Neveraine and the Vestige would bully the Dragonborn.

Its bad faith arguing, @northstrider is more interest in wanking a character he's a fan of rather than actually debate and have a discussion ei exchange of ideas

No one has said this

Again you're getting emotional and throwing a tantrum right now, not a great way to debate and its making you look worse

@northstrider:

now some rereadings lead me to believe it's not even that clear that Tharn used the powers of the Staff of Chaos , while its true that Tharn took all the powers of the Staff of Chaos , its never implied that he siphoned all the magical energies of it into himself but rather its implied that he passed the Energies of the Staff of chaos to the Jewel of fire

I had expected that with all eight pieces together, the Staff of Chaos would activate and free the Emperor. None of this has occurred, and I finally know why. Held by Tharn is a gem of the rarest qualities. Legend has that it is a star fallen from the sky, for it glows with an inner flame. This is the Jewel of Fire, and the crucible of Tharn's life force. It is also the thing in which Tharn has suffused all of the energy of the Staff. If you can touch the Staff to this Jewel, the release of that combined energy may be enough to destroy the Staff of Chaos and open the gate between worlds. If you are successful, Tharn will no doubt be destroyed as well.

Yes, because Alduin does not have the feats for it in his gimped stated we see him in during Skyrim. Point to a single feat in Skyrim where we see his physical avatar do something that is universal or multiversal in scale. You can't find it because it doesn't exist in the game.

I have multiple statements on my side making it clear that Alduin is gonna end the world with his power , as of Skyrim , you're now opting to play the classic " show the feat or your argument invalid game with me when you very well know from this very thread that both these verses revolved much more around statements and lore rather than blatant dragon ball style or comic style multiverse busting.

the word of God treats Alduin's return as an event similar in scope to the planesmeld , the oblivion crisis and Dragonbreaks , all Multiversal phenomenons

Lawrence Schick: It's not just Earth with some magic guys casting spells, right. The nature of reality is fundamentaly different in the world of Nirn, beacause it's based all the natural laws come from the sacrifices that the Aedra made when they made the world. So Akatosh, when he put himself into the world, he made time happen, right, and so forth and so on with all the different gods. So you've got this really seriously interesting mythological background about the nature of reality and how it was created, and how it can be changed, because it's not set forever. It can be further changed by those who can channel magicka and force their will upon it. Right, that's what magic is. Changing reality locally...sometimes locally usually temporarily but you're changing reality, and creatures and characters and beings of mythological levels can change reality in big ways! And that's what happens when you get a Dragonbreak, or a planemeld, or an Oblivion Crisis, or Alduin coming back from the depths of time. You've got reality changing in big ways. At the same time, you've got all of these people who unlike in sorta your standard medieval setting, they look at things in a very logical and scientific and organised fashion. You've got all these sages, you've got the mages guild researchers, you've got the scholars, and they're all breaking stuff down, and it gives a way...

Alduin isn't there to fulfill his destiny, and wants to enslave the world instead. His motivation is completely different and he betrayed his duty due to ambition, and a desire for conquest.

not only do Multiple Major characters in the story directly tell us that Alduin is still capable of destroying the world , they are under the impression he will , the mention of the start of a new world/kalpa is mentioned multiple times by major characters as major exposition dumps.

Have you considered that Alduin was not meant to be defeated? Those who overthrew him in ancient times only postponed the day of reckoning, they did not stop it. If the world is meant to end, so be it. Let it end and be reborn.

- Argneir

Paaz. A fair answer. Ro fus… maybe you only balance the forces that work to quicken the end of this world. Even we who ride the currents of Time cannot see past Time's end… Wuldsetiid los tahrodiis. Those who try to hasten the end, may delay it. Those who work to delay the end, may bring it closer.

- Paarthurnax

Pruzah. As good a reason as any. There are many who feel as you do, although not all. Some would say that all things must end, so that the next can come to pass. Perhaps this world is simply the Egg of the next kalpa? Lein vokiin? Would you stop the next world from being born?

- Paarthurnax

The fact that these mages were so powerful that a Daedric Prince had to deal with them means nothing to you? That's a point in their favor. That Jagar Tharn needed the help of Mehrunes Dagon in order to butcher the lot

yes and the events of Elder Scrolls Online shows us that particularly powerful dragons can make even super power mages such as Abnur Tharn utterly pointless to the point they have to use and nullify their powers using the Dragonborn just to win the fights , in addition , you are going on with your " they never met so they can't be scaled from " , which is like saying X Kage never met Y genin from X kage wouldn't scale from Y genin's feat , frankly , ridiculous .

None of whom the Dovahkiin actually even meets.

characters don't need to meet for scaling , as long as there is substantiated tiering systems , Dragonborn can best dragons while mages needed dragonhorn to stand a chance , its pretty clear whose above .

You keep trying to scale Alduin's minuscule avatar,

except the miniscule avatar is a kalpa ending beast

And now we're scaling all prisoners to each other, and to characters they've never met before again.

I am scaling the prisoners to each others , with the exception of the C0DA Nerevarine , because thats the sharing ground and something that links the power scaling of every single Elder Scrolls Game as a whole .

You are too liberal with scaling, and that's the problem here. You even scale between characters who have never even met each other.

same thing as one scaling a god over a mage , even if they never ever interacted with each other , or scaling a Celestial above a normal force user , because it simply is the more sensible route.

The Dragonborn is not multiversal.

this is just an assertion that does not counter my point regarding Dragonborn being top 2 in a list where atleast 2 other people have their own individual multiversal feats , from Ysmir Wuulfharth moving Temporarily higher Dimensional infinite planes to Tiber Septim changing the colour of the entire multiverse in a single shout

He's not on the level of legitimate Daedric Princes who are not nerfed,

this is another random assertion that has nothing to do with my argument , but unlike the otber one I can atleast agree with this.

but you're for some reason acting like he is.

I'll throw the entire debate away if you give me a screenshot of me anywhere here implying Dragonborn ~ Full power Daedric princes , I implied pretty much the exact opposite of that already

and just like Hircine in Elder Scrolls III : Bloodmoon and the representative of the celestials and the Apex Stone that holds and suppressed the power of the celestials , both these entities are functioning with Avatars and such as they aren't physical entities but literal concepts , I am implying that Miraak is more powerful then the physical avatar of Alduin , same way he can be more powerful then the apex stones sealed Celestials, I agree with the Hypothetical true form Alduin completely deconstructing Miraak but just not what we saw in Skyrim

You are confusing him for The Hero of Kvatch and the Nerevarine.

....? when did I mention something like , Nerevarine can overpower Dagoth Ur , who overpowered the tribunal who all individually are Multiversal? I never said anything remotely like that .

. He only encounters the Hero of Kvatch as Sheogorath, and during that encounter it's clear that The Dovahkiin is completely out of his depth. Being forced to go along with his games if he wants to escape.

yes because The Hero of Kvatch is long dead as of Elder Scrolls V and now functions as Sheogorath , who is its own being but the reason Sheogorath overpowers the Dragonborn is because he is an ascended completely immortal god , not the same person that Hero of Kvatch once was.

Unsubstantiated claims are not feats.

what do you want me to substantiate furthur mate?

. Now you're scaling The Dovahkiin to The Vestige. When once again they're separated by entire eras, and the former doesn't even know about his existence. Liberal scaling like this makes no sense.

The Vestige was Hopeless against Kaalgrontiid And Mulmaanir to the point all he could do was abuse the Dragonhorn

Abnur Tharn: My shield won't hold much longer!

Khamira: The Dragonhorn, five-claw! Do you have it? Use it, quick, quick!

- Elsweyr Online said:

Khamira: Five-claw, Mulaamnir and Kaalgrontiid approach!

Abnur Tharn: The Dragonhorn! It's our only chance!

- Elsweyr Online

Vestige: Is there really a way to stop the Dragons?

Dragonguard Orland: Take my ring. It will … open the sanctuary.

Find the Dragonhorn. You have to … have to ….

- Elsweyr Online

while Alduin is the most powerful dragon , something established multiple times

"Happy? No, I am not happy. Zeymahi lost ont du'ol Barmahu. Alduin was once the crown of our father Akatosh's creation. You did what was necessary. Alduin had flown far from the path of right action in his pahlok- the arrogance of his power. But I cannot celebrate his fall. Zu'u tiiraaz ahst ok mah. He was my brother once. This world will never be the same." - Paarthunax

Many of us have begun to question Alduin's lordship, whether his Thu'um was truly the strongest. Among ourselves, of course. Mu ni meyye. None were yet ready to openly defy him. - Odaviing

Dovahkin: Is Alduin really dead? I didn't absorb his soul when he died

Arngeir: Perhaps, perhaps not. Dragons are not like normal mortal creatures, and Alduin is unique even among dragonkind. He may be permitted to return at the end of time to fulfill his destiny as the World-Eater. But that is for the Gods to decide. You have done your part.

its pretty clear that Alduin is much more powerful the vestige as Vestige without power nullification cannot be Mulmaanir and Kaalgrontiid while Alduin is the most powerful dragon in general

It's like scaling Cell to Beerus when they've never even fought before

if there was a scenario where cell destroyed characters who beerus specefically is hopeless against without power nullification , I would scale Cell to GOD level .

If anyone has been writing fan-fiction it's you guys

seems like........pretty biased as an opinion ngl

I am not the one arguing for multiversal Miraak and Dovahkiin based on things we never actually see in the game, and based on loose scaling to characters and things they never actually encounter. That's you guys.

You literally said this yourself:

Stop feigning ignorance. It makes it clear that you're duplicitous by nature, and that you have developed a habit for lying whenever it conveniences you. Only one who is emotional here is the guy who can't stand the notion that Dovahkiin isn't the most powerful protagonist in video-games. Namely you.

Elder scrolls dragons have an ability where normal mortals attacks do next to nothing unless the being is a dragonborn or another dragon. That is the reason why the Vestige struggles against dragons but can stomp a Avatar of Barbas amped with Vivecs power.

@northstrider: I am Open to CAV this topic too btw

@northstrider Read carefully

Dragonborn is arguably the most powerful video game protagonist, Elder Scrolls lore is absolutely batshit crazy

Arguably, which is different than flat out stating "yes this is factual" even if you want to argue otherwise, no one stated flat out that that Dragonborn was the most powerful video game protagonist

You are getting emotional again, I can tell by the way you type. You're losing an argument and your only tactic now is to screech and yell and blame everyone for your shitty debating ability

@maulsmacker is literally showing quotes and evidence

@northstrider is basically saying "nu uh" over and over again

I believe this thread is a wrap

@maulsmacker:

I have multiple statements on my side making it clear that Alduin is gonna end the world with his power , as of Skyrim , you're now opting to play the classic " show the feat or your argument invalid game with me when you very well know from this very thread that both these verses revolved much more around statements and lore rather than blatant dragon ball style or comic style multiverse busting.

the word of God treats Alduin's return as an event similar in scope to the planesmeld , the oblivion crisis and Dragonbreaks , all Multiversal phenomenons

They weren't being compared in terms of power-level but in how esoteric they were. In that reality was being fudged, or time was being displaced. Nothing there says that this version of Alduin can destroy universes by farting.

not only do Multiple Major characters in the story directly tell us that Alduin is still capable of destroying the world , they are under the impression he will , the mention of the start of a new world/kalpa is mentioned multiple times by major characters as major exposition dumps.

Nope, they're not even sure that he will. Only that he possibly can. The problem is that he wasn't doing that, and was trying to conquer the world instead. Which is why the nords were subjugated by the dragons previously led by Alduin, and all that happened was that they transported him to the future.

yes and the events of Elder Scrolls Online shows us that particularly powerful dragons can make even super power mages such as Abnur Tharn utterly pointless to the point they have to use and nullify their powers using the Dragonborn just to win the fights , in addition , you are going on with your " they never met so they can't be scaled from " , which is like saying X Kage never met Y genin from X kage wouldn't scale from Y genin's feat , frankly , ridiculous .

No, it isn't. It's how scaling works here. You need direct comparisons to scale a character to another one. A fight or a reliable accolade that is corroborated by a source that can actually be trusted.

characters don't need to meet for scaling , as long as there is substantiated tiering systems , Dragonborn can best dragons while mages needed dragonhorn to stand a chance , its pretty clear whose above .

There are dragons like Odahviing who can't even break out of wooden stocks. Are you arguing that there is no mage that can beat Odahviing? A dragon that was restrained by wood, and some metal. It's case-by-case between dragons, and they all have different power levels.

except the miniscule avatar is a kalpa ending beast

Show me where Alduin actually even ends the kalpa in Skyrim. You can't because he doesn't even do it when it would help him against The Dovahkiin.

I am scaling the prisoners to each others , with the exception of the C0DA Nerevarine , because thats the sharing ground and something that links the power scaling of every single Elder Scrolls Game as a whole .

The prisoners are as varied in power-levels as dragons are. They're all over the place, and they're not equal whatsoever.

same thing as one scaling a god over a mage , even if they never ever interacted with each other , or scaling a Celestial above a normal force user , because it simply is the more sensible route.

Nope. The things you're compared here don't have a set power-level. A dragon can be so weak that this is enough to restrain him.

this is just an assertion that does not counter my point regarding Dragonborn being top 2 in a list where atleast 2 other people have their own individual multiversal feats , from Ysmir Wuulfharth moving Temporarily higher Dimensional infinite planes to Tiber Septim changing the colour of the entire multiverse in a single shout

It is not an assertion. It's a negative claim supported by the absence of evidence that the Dovahkiin is multiversal. He has not a single feat to his name that's anywhere near that, and no scaling to a character with feats like that.

this is another random assertion that has nothing to do with my argument , but unlike the otber one I can atleast agree with this.

It does. As the things you're claiming would put him on their level.

I'll throw the entire debate away if you give me a screenshot of me anywhere here implying Dragonborn ~ Full power Daedric princes , I implied pretty much the exact opposite of that already

Did you or did you not say this about Miraak?

....? when did I mention something like , Nerevarine can overpower Dagoth Ur , who overpowered the tribunal who all individually are Multiversal? I never said anything remotely like that .

You're talking about the Dovahkiin and Miraak being multiversal. That's Daedric Prince level.

yes because The Hero of Kvatch is long dead as of Elder Scrolls V and now functions as Sheogorath , who is its own being but the reason Sheogorath overpowers the Dragonborn is because he is an ascended completely immortal god , not the same person that Hero of Kvatch once was.

The reason he overpowers The Dovahkiin is because Sheogorath is multiversal, and the Dovahkiin is not.

what do you want me to substantiate furthur mate?

That The Dovahkiin and Miraak have multiversal feats.

its pretty clear that Alduin is much more powerful the vestige as Vestige without power nullification cannot be Mulmaanir and Kaalgrontiid while Alduin is the most powerful dragon in general

The Alduin the Dovahkiin fights is not at full power, and doesn't any feats to imply that he is. He's not even in his true form which is bigger than the planet, and the Dovahkiin can only defeat him with Dragonrend.

if there was a scenario where cell destroyed characters who beerus specefically is hopeless against without power nullification , I would scale Cell to GOD level .

The Dovahkiin and Miraak don't have these kind of feats.

seems like........pretty biased as an opinion ngl

This coming from the guy arguing that all dragons are cosmic level, and that all mages can't beat any single dragon ever.

You were certainly acting like that when a whole coterie of prisoners outclass him in TES, and you don't even need to pluck from TES to find a protagonist that can beat him. You need to play more videogames from what I can see.

You're the one taking unsubstantiated claims at face value, scaling to characters these ones never even meet, out of context comparisons not even referring to power-level as meaning something they don't, and ignoring the actual feats we see in Skyrim.

@edgicide:

@maulsmacker is literally showing quotes and evidence

He is taking quotes out of context, and applying meaning to them that is not there. Scaling to other characters that is not there. Not a single feat, and everything is just his personal interpretation of dialogue to mean what he wants it to.

@northstrider is basically saying "nu uh" over and over again

I am giving the appropriate context to what he is bringing up and ignoring. As well as twisting it to make it mean what he wants it to.

You don't need to be a dragonborn to fight dragons. You need to be a dragonborn to eat their souls.