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Avatar image for lol
#101 Posted by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

The Presence isnt omnipotent and omniscent at least in Pre-52. I not see him in New-52 to comment

Avatar image for baron_von_santa
#102 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio
Column HeadColumn HeadColumn Head
differencesimilarity
toaamakes the story of his creationsupreme being of his creation
the presenceis within the storysame

Avatar image for the_titan_lord
#103 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (9488 posts) - - Show Bio

LT

Avatar image for baron_von_santa
#104 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio

I am being reasonable..with all due respect I have read EVERY issue of Phantom Stranger and the one thing n52 has said unlike pre is nobody created him...

god help me, you still are ignoring everything I've said, i already listed that being created changes nothing.

That's the difference, I'm not ignoring anything i'm going by what's actually canon since I doubt most on here actually read PS. Yes I'm aware of the 52 universes, I'm NOT blind...also read a bunch of DC so I think I'd know.

if your not then don't act like one

As I said if you're willing to disagree fine, it's still not changing my view. I don't care for this dumb "logistics" with "real writer vs. character" BOTH are fake lol.

nothing to do with this

conclusion, your just too stubborn to accept that. or your a fanboy of DC and can't accept reality

Avatar image for shootingnova
#105 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

why do i have the sneaking suspicion that someone have ears similar to fanboys?

No Caption Provided

Is that directed at me or Vaeternus?

Avatar image for baron_von_santa
#106 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mikep12
#107 Posted by mikep12 (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

GEB

Avatar image for vaeternus
#108 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@ baron, umm presence created all too. Your point contradicts itself.

Im no more a dc fanboy then you are marvel. So i will just agree to disagree if you cant or wont do that. Your problem. To me both are equal having the same purpose.

Avatar image for rijehu
#109 Edited by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

@baron_von_santa:

@rijehu: thats bad logic, he said nothing of the sort.

the writer can make infinite creations, within there are infinite omnipotents.

Not arguing that, But The Presence is still the Supreme Being of DC Universe, don't see how this is relevant.

the primal monitor is the canvas, which has nothing to do with dc other than the whole of dc is in it, so keep the primal monitor out of this.

If you pay close attention to the previous comments before inserting your views, you would notice that @shootingnova first mentioned the PM and I responded to him about it, so before you address me about what to leave out of the conversation, make sure you are aware of how it was inserted. I was not initially using him in my debate, I was responding on my opinion of him when someone else brought him up.

both gods is a bad agreement. use relativity. first, lets talk about new 52 P vs TOAA

a being who is the ruler of 52 UNIVERSES vs a writer? lol

a being who was created by the writer to be omnipotent vs an actual writer? lol

now, think of this, within the canvas are infinite creations made by infinite supreme beings of each creation. and some creations are multiverses, some are just a world big. now, its easy to know who is more powerful, right? now think, all those creations and supreme beings are created by writers, but one writer choose to be his creations own supreme being. think about the rest

That is becoming a huge circle. I said The Presence is the God of DC as TOAA is the God of Marvel Universe. The Presence can do anything in DC just as TOAA can do anything in Marvel. I already mentioned that TOAA has greater jurisdiction because it is the writers, who exist in our plane, but as far as comics go, just as he rules in Marvel, The Presence does in DC. Nothing that has been stated here changes that.

Like I said before, this is a "Human being vs Comic Character type scenario" which is pointless because we know who is more powerful, but that does not change the fact that within the comic book, both are the Supreme beings of their universes. The writers of Marvel wanted to be the God of Marvel as well, great for them. But DC wanted the God of their Universe to be an actual fictional character, who is still all powerful regardless of who TOAA is.

I'm not saying The Presence > TOAA, but in their respective realms, they are indeed equal in rule.

Avatar image for rijehu
#110 Posted by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu: same roles, but different people fill those roles. the writer within a comic book, still represents the writer. what, do you think that just because he's inside the comic he now is a comic character that was created by himself? no, he represents himself, unlike the presence who is a supreme being, but is still within the story.

HERE IT IS MAN! I'm sorry about that last post. I was just trying to get you to see that they are still both Gods of their Universes. Yes TOAA represents himself, but that does not take power from The Presence lol. I figured you already knew this! I can sleep now lol.

Avatar image for useyourname
#111 Posted by UseYourName (63 posts) - - Show Bio

@baron_von_santa, @rijehu, @vaeternus, , @shootingnova

Aight folks; Lets get something straight; TOAA is NOT the real life creator of Marvel universe. We know this because he does not exist outside of the comic in a single corporeal form. He is not a real person.

TOAA is the personification of the collective power of Marvel's creators manifested in the Marvel universe. Even if you put someone like Stan Lee in a comic, it is not really Stan Lee, it is a character based on him, it is the same concept of an alternate version of a character in an alternate universe. You can't use the feats of the real-life version with the Comic version any more than you could use the feats of Kal-L (Superman earth 2) with that of Kal-El (Superman Earth 1). It is the same concept.

As such, TOAA in the comic is like every other character in the comic in that they are limited to powers provided to them by real-life authors, and the real-life authors can't give TOAA real-life powers as he does not exist in real-life.

To my knowledge there is noone in real life who has been officially ordained the title of TOAA in terms of Marvel. And when we speak of TOAA we are referring to this person are we not?

No Caption Provided

This would be a comic book representation and therefor a comic book character, since the real life authors did not magically jump into the comic book, although they may have ascribed a comic book character that role, it is still a character who lacks the real power to individually take action against "the presence" in the manner which many indicate here.

If you're referring to a real person, for it to be canon, Marvel would have to officially place that title (TOAA) on a real person. To my knowledge they have not; So you would have someone who does not officially/canonically exist in "real life" vs someone who exists in comics which would actually default the win to "the presence".

Now, assuming they did officially name someone in real life TOAA, then we would be using a Comicbook Character vs a "real life" person; A real life person who has no legal right to interact with "the presence", and therefor, in character, would not do anything at all to the presence, which still makes this a "Stalemate".

A real life TOAA could, in character, seek legal action, but since the TOAA and "the presence" are abstract concepts based on "Gods of Faith" the chances are the cases would be thrown out, thus also leading to a stalemate.

So to summarize; TOAA that appears in comics has no more abilities than the presence unless specifically shown or stated in the comics. This makes this a stalemate.

Avatar image for bronze_surfer
#112 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (3081 posts) - - Show Bio

@useyourname: Well marvel did give the title of TOAA to a real life person, but their dead. Jack Kirby

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#113 Posted by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@useyourname damn now thats a post lol.

Ok so in otherwords you feel its a stalemate ultimately. I can live with that. Nice post.

Avatar image for baron_von_santa
#114 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio

@useyourname: the presence can be rectonned, the writer can not, one easy distinguishing factor,and Bronze_Surfer is right, they did, which is the reason why everyones says that

and the writer can recton things i just remembered, the presence was rectonned

Avatar image for lol
#115 Edited by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

baron_von_santa isnt a marvel fan he is a dc fan just saying. is really annoying the people who cant accept a dc character or marvel character loses and write bs and presents fake proofs

Also the thread is GEB vs LT not TOAA vs TP and GEB stomps. This thread must end now

Avatar image for joseloayza
#116 Posted by JoseLoayza (446 posts) - - Show Bio

LT

Avatar image for useyourname
#117 Edited by UseYourName (63 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer said:

@useyourname: Well marvel did give the title of TOAA to a real life person, but their dead. Jack Kirby

Ok, let's use your logic then. You just stated that the being officially labeled as the TOAA in actual existence has died, assuming that TOAA in Marvel isn't dead, that means the only remaining aspect of him lies within the comic and because TOAA is still an element of that comic book, he can not do anything the "real individuals" can do because once again, Jack Kirby or anyone else did not magically jump into Marvel, so regardless of how powerful you want TOAA to be, he is still an element of Marvel Comics, thus bound by the pages just as The Presence in DC is. The fact that Jack Kirby died is enough to solidify my point.

@baron_von_santa said:

@useyourname: the presence can be rectonned, the writer can not, one easy distinguishing factor,and Bronze_Surfer is right, they did, which is the reason why everyones says that

and the writer can recton things i just remembered, the presence was rectonned

Even if the Presence was retconned, that does not in any way, change his position. You just agreed with @bronze_surfer who already stated the TOAA's embodiment died right? So if you truly believe that Jack Kirby was one with TOAA then TOAA would definitely be inferior here because based upon the content of your argument, he would have died with Jack Kirby, which is a far worst event than being so called retconned as you claim The Presence was. Because of this, I say they are equal entities in two different universes. That is the confusion and flaw in tying a real person with a character, the moment you place yourself into a comic, you are indeed bound by the contents.

@vaeternus Yes, and thank you. I don't understand what is so difficult about this. The Presence and TOAA are both comic characters who are the Omnipotent creators in their universes. What goes on outside of that Universe or comic is irrelevant because it would no longer be Marvel or DC. It would be our world. This is the result of people desperately wanting Marvel or DC to be the better franchise so they attempt to squeeze out something to make it seem so on their behalf. I prefer Marvel's plots to DC but the Gods are still equal beings in my eyes.

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#118 Edited by UseYourName (63 posts) - - Show Bio

@lol said:

baron_von_santa isnt a marvel fan he is a dc fan just saying. is really annoying the people who cant accept a dc character or marvel character loses and write bs and presents fake proofs

Also the thread is GEB vs LT not TOAA vs TP and GEB stomps. This thread must end now

I have to agree with the outcome

Avatar image for rijehu
#119 Posted by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

@useyourname: TOAA is still a character, it doesn't matter who he represents, he is still a being in a Marvel comic. He rules Marvel as The Presence rules DC.

This debate is pointless because the logic is flawed. This is why. If Jack Kirby was TOAA, then he died so that would currently make The Presence > even him. And if TOAA is now representing Stan Lee, then I could say that because Stan Lee is a human, that means that TOAA was still created by a human being, meaning that he is still no different than The Presence. I could also say that The Presence can survive longer in a concept that Stan can in real life, so that would automatically give The Presence the win.

I could even say because The Presence represents the Judeo-Christian God, that he is automatically > TOAA because the Abrahamic faiths > any individual person. And if TOAA really is the writers, then he would be subject to whatever the writers circumstances are. If the writers become sick, die, incarcerated or incapable of writing, the TOAA would be subject to such affects because he IS the writers right? So using that logic, At any given time TOAA can die in our reality and Marvel, whereas the Presence is solidified in DC because he exists separately from his creators in his own continuity.

Even so, none of that would change the fact that they are equal beings. Making TOAA a living being is ridiculous because until the day he actually gets up and walks out of the Marvel Comic, into my living room and sit next to me, he is and will always be a character.

My only issue is the fact that many people think TOAA or Stan Lee is going to simply teleport into DC Studios and destroy or erase all things related to The Presence with a wave of his almighty hand or something. It's not going to happen. If The Presence and TOAA faced off, they would laugh at the fact that it would be a pointless and endless attempt. I'm done with this debate. I am not a fanboy, I just state my views as everyone else does.

Avatar image for vaeternus
#120 Posted by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate. As for the match. Geb. The end

Avatar image for supermandefender
#121 Posted by supermandefender (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackknight said:

@sheenlantern said:

@jackknight said:

@sheenlantern said:

@jackknight said:

GEB is not = the Presence but he's not far off

Based on what facts?

The fact that GEB is an aspect of the Presence.

And?

My fingernail is an aspect of me but it's plenty far off.

Being an aspect of the Presence does not = omnipotence, it's already proven that the Presence is not the true supreme being of DC, he said himself that there exist things above him. He can be tricked, he can be manipulated, there are things he doesn't know.

The Presence is not omnipotent.

Oh god not is whole "The Presence is not omnipotent" again!

No Caption Provided

And before you ask yes I know that scan where he says that he was shaped by outside forces, but that was only mentioned in the whole history of DC ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and even then a creation and become more powerful then his/her creator, HELL! Yog-Sothoth in Lovecraft's work was actually the supreme being in the Cthulhu Mythos not Azathoth!!!!!!!!!!!!

And not knowing everything doesn't mean that your not omnipotent, it just means that your not omniscient.

When was the Presence manipulated? I've heard that John Constantine tricked him but @darkraiden already storted out what actually happened in the "Who can beat John Constantine" thread.

Oh and don't get me started on the Over-Monitor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Omniscience comes with Omnipotence... How could you control everything without knowing everything? To be omnipotent, your power must be infinite, you have to have the ability to do everything and have every ability. Omniscience is an ability

"but that was only mentioned in the whole history of DC ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yes, and GEB has appeared how many times? Once? Twice? guess we should ignore him, too. Meaning LT wins by default.

What the hell does H.P. Lovecraft have to do with this?

"already storted out what actually happened in the "Who can beat John Constantine" thread."

So he threatened him? Guess that proves he's not omnipotent, too.

Not really possible to be tricked if you can control everything and anything without limit.
Not really possible to be tricked if you can control everything and anything without limit.

"Oh and don't get me started on the Over-Monitor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If you think using an overabundance of exclamation marks is going to make you look smart and clever, you're wrong.

I hate to get involved but when I see two people completely ignore certain facts....well I just cant help myself.

1. This is too JackKnight- You are Wrong! The GEB is not a aspect of the Presence. Your tying connect the union between GEB & the Presence to meaning they are the samething. Facts we do know about the GEB: The Presence at the dawn of creation casted out all of the evil from within him. The Evil Presence then came into form known as the GEB (we dont know how). Just like the Spectre is a Spirit of God Vengeance the GEB is the Spirit of Gods Evil. The GEB is his own entity that is the host of all the Evil in the Universe & in God. That is all we know. While the Evil part of God is a aspect of him, it doesnt mean that the GEB and the Presence are one & the same being. At the end of the arc the Presence merged back with his Evil spirit which is a aspect of him and the GEB was never seen again.

2. This is to Sheenlantern- You are Wrong! First off, the Lucifer MorningStar arc is not apart of DC's main continuity LOL! DUH! If you guys fight and debate on what feats count, based on their continuity, then you cannot say anything about something the Presence says out of continuity!!!!!DUH!!! That's like me saying Superman beat Thor in JLA vs Avengers and using it as evidence. You can't do that!!!!

*For all purposes the Presence is omnipotent he created the entire DC Multiverse and he has enough feats in DC that put him in a class way beyond that of LT. The Presence is a unchanged force in DC continuity so I can use Pre-crisis Presence, and everything that is related to him. Yes that means Pre-crisis Spectre, too. Thats more than enough feats for you.

3. To the both of you and to Answer all those stupid people out there who miss quote the Presence in the Lucifer MorningStar continuity. Here it is, read carefully, and please realize that their are stupid people. Now ill post the scan below and I read it to you LINE BY LINE so nobody gets lost! Lucifer says" You seem to have managed well enough." Why did Lucifer say this? Have you even asked yourself that? Were you not even curious? Because prior to that God said "You cannot be your OWN maker, Samael. None of us can." What is actually being said here by God! Is that everybody, everything is shaped into what they are!!! They are not talking about creation itself!!!! Lucifer then says " You seemed to have managed well enough." Lucifer is admitting God has no maker, that God has shaped himself into what he is. God replies " I? NO. True, I'm Infinite and Eternal." God here is admitting that he had no beginning and that he is INFINITE AND ETERNAL!!!! For the retards who dont understand the this, ill define it for them. The defintion of Eternal is lasting or existing forever, without beginning or end! The definition Infinite is Limitless or Endless. God is basically say, yes Lucifer your right!!!

Now to the famous line everybody reads out of context. First of all before I go into it. Read the scan. You can see a period after God says "True, I'm Infinite and Eternal." <--------------- you see that period there. Thats the end of that one thought or comment and it stands! God is in fact telling Lucifer I had no creator, I have always been, and I will always be. Now that we already covered the definitions, we can move on, and discuss the highly misunderstood, idiotic, stupid, brain dead comic viners who started this rumor, the scene where God says he has a creator. ( Not that being created makes him any less omnipotent??????????? O_O; I mean thats like saying the universe isnt infinite because it had a beginning. LOL I mean do guys release just how stupid that sounds????) Anyway, it doesnt matter because God here is not saying he was created.

What God is actually saying is: God says " But even I was shaped by forces external to me, you know what they are." Read that line carefully! Do you see it? For those of you that did GREAT JOB! What you see is that its one entire sentence. Which means its one entire thought. God is telling Lucifer "Yes, I am infinite and eteneral but..... (another word for BUT here is however) however, I was shaped by forces external to me, you know what they are." God here is saying that his character is shaped or his personality by external forces. The external forces meaning not apart of God, not a aspect of God. He means people, (not just people,everybody) that they changed him into the being he is today. God here is not talking about being created, he is talking about being influenced! And the line that confirms this is: God says " you know what they are. " God isnt saying *AND* you know what they are, God is telling Lucifer, you know what I am talking about! Hopefully, this puts a end to the topic.

No Caption Provided

For all purposes the Presence is Omnipotent and chooses not to impose his will onto others or the outcome of the DCU. If you read the Lucifer MorningStar arc at all you would understand that!

No Caption Provided

TOAA is the Marvel version of DC's Presence and likewise. Their power is equal end of discussion lets move on with our lives. And they are for a fact both omnipotent! All of you comments about God not being omnipotent has been debunked by ME! End of it. dont fight with me, you lose, i win. It is fact, dont try to convince me otherwise, i read all the arcs i know what im talking about and obviously you dont. The end.

Avatar image for rijehu
#122 Posted by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@jackknight said:

@sheenlantern said:

@jackknight said:

@sheenlantern said:

@jackknight said:

GEB is not = the Presence but he's not far off

Based on what facts?

The fact that GEB is an aspect of the Presence.

And?

My fingernail is an aspect of me but it's plenty far off.

Being an aspect of the Presence does not = omnipotence, it's already proven that the Presence is not the true supreme being of DC, he said himself that there exist things above him. He can be tricked, he can be manipulated, there are things he doesn't know.

The Presence is not omnipotent.

Oh god not is whole "The Presence is not omnipotent" again!

No Caption Provided

And before you ask yes I know that scan where he says that he was shaped by outside forces, but that was only mentioned in the whole history of DC ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and even then a creation and become more powerful then his/her creator, HELL! Yog-Sothoth in Lovecraft's work was actually the supreme being in the Cthulhu Mythos not Azathoth!!!!!!!!!!!!

And not knowing everything doesn't mean that your not omnipotent, it just means that your not omniscient.

When was the Presence manipulated? I've heard that John Constantine tricked him but @darkraiden already storted out what actually happened in the "Who can beat John Constantine" thread.

Oh and don't get me started on the Over-Monitor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Omniscience comes with Omnipotence... How could you control everything without knowing everything? To be omnipotent, your power must be infinite, you have to have the ability to do everything and have every ability. Omniscience is an ability

"but that was only mentioned in the whole history of DC ONCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yes, and GEB has appeared how many times? Once? Twice? guess we should ignore him, too. Meaning LT wins by default.

What the hell does H.P. Lovecraft have to do with this?

"already storted out what actually happened in the "Who can beat John Constantine" thread."

So he threatened him? Guess that proves he's not omnipotent, too.

Not really possible to be tricked if you can control everything and anything without limit.
Not really possible to be tricked if you can control everything and anything without limit.

"Oh and don't get me started on the Over-Monitor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If you think using an overabundance of exclamation marks is going to make you look smart and clever, you're wrong.

I hate to get involved but when I see two people completely ignore certain facts....well I just cant help myself.

1. This is too JackKnight- You are Wrong! The GEB is not a aspect of the Presence. Your tying connect the union between GEB & the Presence to meaning they are the samething. Facts we do know about the GEB: The Presence at the dawn of creation casted out all of the evil from within him. The Evil Presence then came into form known as the GEB (we dont know how). Just like the Spectre is a Spirit of God Vengeance the GEB is the Spirit of Gods Evil. The GEB is his own entity that is the host of all the Evil in the Universe & in God. That is all we know. While the Evil part of God is a aspect of him, it doesnt mean that the GEB and the Presence are one & the same being. At the end of the arc the Presence merged back with his Evil spirit which is a aspect of him and the GEB was never seen again.

2. This is to Sheenlantern- You are Wrong! First off, the Lucifer MorningStar arc is not apart of DC's main continuity LOL! DUH! If you guys fight and debate on what feats count, based on their continuity, then you cannot say anything about something the Presence says out of continuity!!!!!DUH!!! That's like me saying Superman beat Thor in JLA vs Avengers and using it as evidence. You can't do that!!!!

*For all purposes the Presence is omnipotent he created the entire DC Multiverse and he has enough feats in DC that put him in a class way beyond that of LT. The Presence is a unchanged force in DC continuity so I can use Pre-crisis Presence, and everything that is related to him. Yes that means Pre-crisis Spectre, too. Thats more than enough feats for you.

3. To the both of you and to Answer all those stupid people out there who miss quote the Presence in the Lucifer MorningStar continuity. Here it is, read carefully, and please realize that their are stupid people. Now ill post the scan below and I read it to you LINE BY LINE so nobody gets lost! Lucifer says" You seem to have managed well enough." Why did Lucifer say this? Have you even asked yourself that? Were you not even curious? Because prior to that God said "You cannot be your OWN maker, Samael. None of us can." What is actually being said here by God! Is that everybody, everything is shaped into what they are!!! They are not talking about creation itself!!!! Lucifer then says " You seemed to have managed well enough." Lucifer is admitting God has no maker, that God has shaped himself into what he is. God replies " I? NO. True, I'm Infinite and Eternal." God here is admitting that he had no beginning and that he is INFINITE AND ETERNAL!!!! For the retards who dont understand the this, ill define it for them. The defintion of Eternal is lasting or existing forever, without beginning or end! The definition Infinite is Limitless or Endless. God is basically say, yes Lucifer your right!!!

Now to the famous line everybody reads out of context. First of all before I go into it. Read the scan. You can see a period after God says "True, I'm Infinite and Eternal." <--------------- you see that period there. Thats the end of that one thought or comment and it stands! God is in fact telling Lucifer I had no creator, I have always been, and I will always be. Now that we already covered the definitions, we can move on, and discuss the highly misunderstood, idiotic, stupid, brain dead comic viners who started this rumor, the scene where God says he has a creator. ( Not that being created makes him any less omnipotent??????????? O_O; I mean thats like saying the universe isnt infinite because it had a beginning. LOL I mean do guys release just how stupid that sounds????) Anyway, it doesnt matter because God here is not saying he was created.

What God is actually saying is: God says " But even I was shaped by forces external to me, you know what they are." Read that line carefully! Do you see it? For those of you that did GREAT JOB! What you see is that its one entire sentence. Which means its one entire thought. God is telling Lucifer "Yes, I am infinite and eteneral but..... (another word for BUT here is however) however, I was shaped by forces external to me, you know what they are." God here is saying that his character is shaped or his personality by external forces. The external forces meaning not apart of God, not a aspect of God. He means people, (not just people,everybody) that they changed him into the being he is today. God here is not talking about being created, he is talking about being influenced! And the line that confirms this is: God says " you know what they are. " God isnt saying *AND* you know what they are, God is telling Lucifer, you know what I am talking about! Hopefully, this puts a end to the topic.

No Caption Provided

For all purposes the Presence is Omnipotent and chooses not to impose his will onto others or the outcome of the DCU. If you read the Lucifer MorningStar arc at all you would understand that!

No Caption Provided

TOAA is the Marvel version of DC's Presence and likewise. Their power is equal end of discussion lets move on with our lives. And they are for a fact both omnipotent! All of you comments about God not being omnipotent has been debunked by ME! End of it. dont fight with me, you lose, i win. It is fact, dont try to convince me otherwise, i read all the arcs i know what im talking about and obviously you dont. The end.

You Sir, are a genius, a bit abrupt, but a genius nonetheless.

Avatar image for lol
#123 Posted by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is here supertrolldefenfer? GEB stomps, and TOAA >Presence. The end

Avatar image for vaeternus
#124 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@useyourname: Your welcome. I agree ;)

Presence and TOAA=equal

The topic, GEB Stomps.

Avatar image for lol
#125 Edited by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

GEB stomps

TOAA>Presence

Avatar image for supermandefender
#126 Posted by supermandefender (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu:

Thanks. But I am not a genius. And yes I do act abruptly.

@lol said:

Why is here supertrolldefenfer? GEB stomps, and TOAA >Presence. The end

You prove your ignorance with TOAA>Presence. But most importantly you start out your conversation with "why is here?" Really?" Why is here?" I mean you messed up on your first sentence. I can understand you mess up somewhere in the middle but you started out not making any sense. LOL -

Now I am making fun of you to prove a point. This is Trolling. What I did before was not. What I did before was make a point. The way you called me supertrolldefender is Trolling. Btw you spelled Defender wrong.

Now to your TOAA>Presence comment.

If you read the Vertigo series paper back Titled Lucifer-Evensong and you turn to page 152 God clearly implies he is omnipotent. I will quote for you from the comic book, verse by verse.

From the Vertigo series paperback Lucifer- Evensong Page 152: God speaking "So, has Elaine made a Good Start? Lucifer replies " I'd say so. She put right the mess you left her with. God answers " I thought she showed promise. It's no easy task, though. Omnipotence is a great burden. And eternity is a very long time." Now if you read the series, you would know what they are talking about. Now you tell me what that conversation was about Mr. Knowitall? I know and I dont even have to read it because I already have and I know the whole story. And if you read it at all you could tell me, I shouldnt need to explain myself, you shouldnt need anymore info because if you read it you would known what the last arc was about.

If you want proof, I can take a snap shot on my phone, upload the pic to my computer and show you. And show you the page. All depends on you and how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

TOAA is = to the Presence: Reason 1: Both are God. Not just a God, but the God. Marvels happens to be a writer who dictates the lives of every being in the Marvel U. He creates Evil as well creates Good and forces them to fight. Free will is a illusion to the characters, all is written down from his mighty pen. Kind of a prick if you ask me. Then there is the Presence who before the dawn of creation created 3 beings Micheal, Lucifer, and Gabriel. <-------------Evensong page 131. To quote from the page God says " Micheal will release the power from within his Heart. Samael will weave it into suns. Gabriel will impose form and pattern on the worlds as they cool." Lucifers first reply was" Why?" Origin of Evil.

Basically, at the dawn of creation God creates everything through his power and in making a living being, even though he made them to obey his will. They still had free will. After realizing what he did, he casted out all the evil in him. The origin of Evil. God would never impose his will on the DCU from then on but would help it. A much nicer thought.

One God is from Marvel the Other is from DC. The two universes have nothing in common. Its like saying the Man of Miracles, Mother, ect whatever you want to call him/her, (who created the Spawn universe and the God and Satan from that universe) is more or less powerful than the Presence or TOAA. The two universes and the laws their are completely different. The Marvel writer cannot write in a DC comic so the match is a stalemate. If and when Marvel ever buys DC then yes TOAA can beat the Presence because Marvel then has authority over DC. But seeing that Marvel has already sold its rights over to Disney, my guess is that will never happen. Now if Disney sells Marvels rights over to DC, then your screwed. I dunno what to say. I really dont care either way. This should be common sense though.

The two universes are not connected so the answer will always and forever will be TOAA=the Presence. Until one company owns the other.

As of right now it goes down like this.

TOAA=the Presence

Mickey Mouse> TOAA- Marvel is Disney's bitch now.

The Presence =Mickey Mouse- neither company owns the other and have no connection or rights to the other.

End of story, game over, you lose. I win. You dont know what your talking about. You logic makes no sense. You have proof or any sensible reason to justify your claim. Your making stuff up. I mean seriously how can you say Omnipotence A beats Omnipotence B? I mean that's just ignorant.

Again im not trying to make you upset I am simply correcting you.

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#127 Edited by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermandefender said:

@rijehu:

Thanks. But I am not a genius. And yes I do act abruptly.

Either way, I am glad you came along with factual, logical thinking.

@lol said:

Why is here supertrolldefenfer? GEB stomps, and TOAA >Presence. The end

You prove your ignorance with TOAA>Presence. But most importantly you start out your conversation with "why is here?" Really?" Why is here?" I mean you messed up on your first sentence. I can understand you mess up somewhere in the middle but you started out not making any sense. LOL -

Now I am making fun of you to prove a point. This is Trolling. What I did before was not. What I did before was make a point. The way you called me supertrolldefender is Trolling. Btw you spelled Defender wrong.

Now to your TOAA>Presence comment.

If you read the Vertigo series paper back Titled Lucifer-Evensong and you turn to page 152 God clearly implies he is omnipotent. I will quote for you from the comic book, verse by verse.

From the Vertigo series paperback Lucifer- Evensong Page 152: God speaking "So, has Elaine made a Good Start? Lucifer replies " I'd say so. She put right the mess you left her with. God answers " I thought she showed promise. It's no easy task, though. Omnipotence is a great burden. And eternity is a very long time." Now if you read the series, you would know what they are talking about. Now you tell me what that conversation was about Mr. Knowitall? I know and I dont even have to read it because I already have and I know the whole story. And if you read it at all you could tell me, I shouldnt need to explain myself, you shouldnt need anymore info because if you read it you would known what the last arc was about.

If you want proof, I can take a snap shot on my phone, upload the pic to my computer and show you. And show you the page. All depends on you and how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

TOAA is = to the Presence: Reason 1: Both are God. Not just a God, but the God. Marvels happens to be a writer who dictates the lives of every being in the Marvel U. He creates Evil as well creates Good and forces them to fight. Free will is a illusion to the characters, all is written down from his mighty pen. Kind of a prick if you ask me. Then there is the Presence who before the dawn of creation created 3 beings Micheal, Lucifer, and Gabriel. <-------------Evensong page 131. To quote from the page God says " Micheal will release the power from within his Heart. Samael will weave it into suns. Gabriel will impose form and pattern on the worlds as they cool." Lucifers first reply was" Why?" Origin of Evil.

Basically, at the dawn of creation God creates everything through his power and in making a living being, even though he made them to obey his will. They still had free will. After realizing what he did, he casted out all the evil in him. The origin of Evil. God would never impose his will on the DCU from then on but would help it. A much nicer thought.

One God is from Marvel the Other is from DC. The two universes have nothing in common. Its like saying the Man of Miracles, Mother, ect whatever you want to call him/her, (who created the Spawn universe and the God and Satan from that universe) is more or less powerful than the Presence or TOAA. The two universes and the laws their are completely different. The Marvel writer cannot write in a DC comic so the match is a stalemate. If and when Marvel ever buys DC then yes TOAA can beat the Presence because Marvel then has authority over DC. But seeing that Marvel has already sold its rights over to Disney, my guess is that will never happen. Now if Disney sells Marvels rights over to DC, then your screwed. I dunno what to say. I really dont care either way. This should be common sense though.

The two universes are not connected so the answer will always and forever will be TOAA=the Presence. Until one company owns the other.

As of right now it goes down like this.

TOAA=the Presence

Mickey Mouse> TOAA- Marvel is Disney's bitch now.

The Presence =Mickey Mouse- neither company owns the other and have no connection or rights to the other.

End of story, game over, you lose. I win. You dont know what your talking about. You logic makes no sense. You have proof or any sensible reason to justify your claim. Your making stuff up. I mean seriously how can you say Omnipotence A beats Omnipotence B? I mean that's just ignorant.

Again im not trying to make you upset I am simply correcting you.

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#128 Edited by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermandefender said:

@rijehu:

Thanks. But I am not a genius. And yes I do act abruptly.

@lol said:

Why is here supertrolldefenfer? GEB stomps, and TOAA >Presence. The end

You prove your ignorance with TOAA>Presence. But most importantly you start out your conversation with "why is here?" Really?" Why is here?" I mean you messed up on your first sentence. I can understand you mess up somewhere in the middle but you started out not making any sense. LOL -

Now I am making fun of you to prove a point. This is Trolling. What I did before was not. What I did before was make a point. The way you called me supertrolldefender is Trolling. Btw you spelled Defender wrong.

Now to your TOAA>Presence comment.

If you read the Vertigo series paper back Titled Lucifer-Evensong and you turn to page 152 God clearly implies he is omnipotent. I will quote for you from the comic book, verse by verse.

From the Vertigo series paperback Lucifer- Evensong Page 152: God speaking "So, has Elaine made a Good Start? Lucifer replies " I'd say so. She put right the mess you left her with. God answers " I thought she showed promise. It's no easy task, though. Omnipotence is a great burden. And eternity is a very long time." Now if you read the series, you would know what they are talking about. Now you tell me what that conversation was about Mr. Knowitall? I know and I dont even have to read it because I already have and I know the whole story. And if you read it at all you could tell me, I shouldnt need to explain myself, you shouldnt need anymore info because if you read it you would known what the last arc was about.

If you want proof, I can take a snap shot on my phone, upload the pic to my computer and show you. And show you the page. All depends on you and how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

TOAA is = to the Presence: Reason 1: Both are God. Not just a God, but the God. Marvels happens to be a writer who dictates the lives of every being in the Marvel U. He creates Evil as well creates Good and forces them to fight. Free will is a illusion to the characters, all is written down from his mighty pen. Kind of a prick if you ask me. Then there is the Presence who before the dawn of creation created 3 beings Micheal, Lucifer, and Gabriel. <-------------Evensong page 131. To quote from the page God says " Micheal will release the power from within his Heart. Samael will weave it into suns. Gabriel will impose form and pattern on the worlds as they cool." Lucifers first reply was" Why?" Origin of Evil.

Basically, at the dawn of creation God creates everything through his power and in making a living being, even though he made them to obey his will. They still had free will. After realizing what he did, he casted out all the evil in him. The origin of Evil. God would never impose his will on the DCU from then on but would help it. A much nicer thought.

One God is from Marvel the Other is from DC. The two universes have nothing in common. Its like saying the Man of Miracles, Mother, ect whatever you want to call him/her, (who created the Spawn universe and the God and Satan from that universe) is more or less powerful than the Presence or TOAA. The two universes and the laws their are completely different. The Marvel writer cannot write in a DC comic so the match is a stalemate. If and when Marvel ever buys DC then yes TOAA can beat the Presence because Marvel then has authority over DC. But seeing that Marvel has already sold its rights over to Disney, my guess is that will never happen. Now if Disney sells Marvels rights over to DC, then your screwed. I dunno what to say. I really dont care either way. This should be common sense though.

The two universes are not connected so the answer will always and forever will be TOAA=the Presence. Until one company owns the other.

As of right now it goes down like this.

TOAA=the Presence

Mickey Mouse> TOAA- Marvel is Disney's bitch now.

The Presence =Mickey Mouse- neither company owns the other and have no connection or rights to the other.

End of story, game over, you lose. I win. You dont know what your talking about. You logic makes no sense. You have proof or any sensible reason to justify your claim. Your making stuff up. I mean seriously how can you say Omnipotence A beats Omnipotence B? I mean that's just ignorant.

Again im not trying to make you upset I am simply correcting you.

If The Presence is the true god the writers dont know how is god

The Presence stalemated GEB. Omnipotent god not stalemate nothing.

He say I am created by external forces. GOD isnt created by external forces

He is tricked. You cant tricked and omniscent being

He wish Lucifer to share his regards. If he know all he dont need knowlegde from others

So yes he isnt omnipotent and omniscent. GOD is both

Still isnt the first time you trolling here. If you know the presence you know what im talking about

Also your knowledge of DC is really good from other comics i really doubt you know anything

DC is the bitch of Warner. End .You still loses

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#129 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's stop arguing about the Presence and TOAA because neither of those beings are in this thread. The end.

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#130 Posted by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's stop arguing about the Presence and TOAA because neither of those beings are in this thread. The end.

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#131 Edited by supermandefender (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: It has a importance to the purpose of the thread. In describing the power of the Presence, you are infact describing the power of the GEB. So it is related.

@lol:

If The Presence is the true god the writers dont know how is god

I dunno seems pretty clear to me.

The Presence stalemated GEB. Omnipotent god not stalemate nothing.

God never stalemated the GEB. You made that up. The GEB is spirit of all the Evil. It is apart of God. At the end of the arc, God merged with his evil again and GEB was never seen again. You tell me how that's a stalemate?

He say I am created by external forces. GOD isnt created by external forces

No your wrong! God never said he was created by external forces. I already covered that. God said he was shaped by external forces. Where do you even get the word created? That was never said! He said he was shaped. God here is talking about his personality. Its in reference to how Lucifer feels the way he does. Lucifer is saying God made him this way and God is saying I made you but I didnt shape you.

He is tricked. You cant tricked and omniscent being

Ok?A being that can undo everything in creation. A being that does not need to exist in time or space itself. A being that can alter any outcome at anytime past, present or future. So exactly, how can God be tricked by someone if he can simply undo what just happened? The Presence does not interfere and allows people to do things.

He wish Lucifer to share his regards. If he know all he dont need knowlegde from others

No you miss read. The context of sharing each others lives was a choice. God could simply impose his will on Lucifer anytime he wished. God long ago promised Lucifer that he would separate himself from Lucifer. He gave Lucifer complete Independence. God respected Lucifer's wishes to be free from God. Except it was impossible for Lucifer to be completely free from him.

I will break this down for you as best I can. As well as Ill show you the scans. God told Lucifer, with his Omnipotence he can protect Lucifer from his Omniscience. But tells him he cannot stop the fact that he is Omnipresent.

So yes he isnt omnipotent and omniscent. GOD is both

Wrong again you dont understand the context of what you are reading because you dont have all the facts.

Here all all the scans of the Lucifer Morning Star Arc and Ill explain each section for you. The Presence is Omnipotent.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14Gallery image 15Gallery image 16Gallery image 17Gallery image 18

These are pictures taken by my phone of God creating Micheal, Lucifer, and Gabriel. Click I recommend you click and read every picture. To sum it all up though. Lucifer wants to be free, to make his own choices. God stops the war in heaven and offers Lucifer Hell. Lucifer accepts his offer. God does his very best to grant him his freedom of him but tells him that its impossible because all of creation is flowing out of him. Every single thing is part of his energy. Basically, God blocks his omniscience from Lucifer on purpose. But God tells him that he cant help being Omnipresent.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14Gallery image 15Gallery image 16Gallery image 17Gallery image 18Gallery image 19Gallery image 20

Here Lucifer travels outside of reality itself. The place where no time, or space exist. This place is where reality itself is spawned from. Lucifer questions what is older between this place or God but says the answer is futile. Lucifer runs into beings outside of reality itself, including lilth. There these beings believed Lucifer too was casted out of reality itself and talk about killing him. Then God arrives.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

As you see God arrives.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14Gallery image 15Gallery image 16

Here God tells a story to Lucifer, a story that describes the power of God. In the story, the Buddha (aka God) and the Monkey (aka Lucifer) have a conversation. The Monkey wants to prove he is more powerful than the Buddha. So to prove himself, the Monkey flies to origin of creation, which is outside of reality. To prove that the monkey was there he wrote his name down on a wall. The monkey then returns back to the Buddha to show him his power, only to find out, that the monkey just wrote down his name on the finger of the Buddha. God here is making a point. No matter Lucifer goes, in reality or outside of it, God is there. That all places even nothing itself is God.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13

Lasty, the topic you were talking about. God offers Lucifer a gift, that they share each other identities. God could impose his will on him but does not. Lucifer then makes a comment about him rejecting God and wonders if God is only testing his creation. God answers "no" its your free will. God did make him and give him a role to follow but Lucifer chose not to do it. The offer is a merger of two beings, Lucifer would then become God and would share experiences, and emotions. God is doing this for two reasons. God wants to understand Lucifer's individual feelings, but God also wants Lucifer to understand his feelings. All he is trying to do here is become closer with his son. Lucifer rejects the idea of being connected to his father, and still wants to keep his independence. God then respects Lucifer's choice and promises he wont interfere with him again if thats what Lucifer truly wants.

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#132 Posted by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

Geb

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#133 Edited by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: It has a importance to the purpose of the thread. In describing the power of the Presence, you are infact describing the power of the GEB. So it is related.

@lol:

If The Presence is the true god the writers dont know how is god

I dunno seems pretty clear to me.

The Presence stalemated GEB. Omnipotent god not stalemate nothing.

God never stalemated the GEB. You made that up. The GEB is spirit of all the Evil. It is apart of God. At the end of the arc, God merged with his evil again and GEB was never seen again. You tell me how that's a stalemate?

He say I am created by external forces. GOD isnt created by external forces

No your wrong! God never said he was created by external forces. I already covered that. God said he was shaped by external forces. Where do you even get the word created? That was never said! He said he was shaped. God here is talking about his personality. Its in reference to how Lucifer feels the way he does. Lucifer is saying God made him this way and God is saying I made you but I didnt shape you.

He is tricked. You cant tricked and omniscent being

Ok?A being that can undo everything in creation. A being that does not need to exist in time or space itself. A being that can alter any outcome at anytime past, present or future. So exactly, how can God be tricked by someone if he can simply undo what just happened? The Presence does not interfere and allows people to do things.

He wish Lucifer to share his regards. If he know all he dont need knowlegde from others

No you miss read. The context of sharing each others lives was a choice. God could simply impose his will on Lucifer anytime he wished. God long ago promised Lucifer that he would separate himself from Lucifer. He gave Lucifer complete Independence. God respected Lucifer's wishes to be free from God. Except it was impossible for Lucifer to be completely free from him.

I will break this down for you as best I can. As well as Ill show you the scans. God told Lucifer, with his Omnipotence he can protect Lucifer from his Omniscience. But tells him he cannot stop the fact that he is Omnipresent.

So yes he isnt omnipotent and omniscent. GOD is both

Wrong again you dont understand the context of what you are reading because you dont have all the facts.

Here all all the scans of the Lucifer Morning Star Arc and Ill explain each section for you. The Presence is Omnipotent.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14Gallery image 15Gallery image 16Gallery image 17Gallery image 18

These are pictures taken by my phone of God creating Micheal, Lucifer, and Gabriel. Click I recommend you click and read every picture. To sum it all up though. Lucifer wants to be free, to make his own choices. God stops the war in heaven and offers Lucifer Hell. Lucifer accepts his offer. God does his very best to grant him his freedom of him but tells him that its impossible because all of creation is flowing out of him. Every single thing is part of his energy. Basically, God blocks his omniscience from Lucifer on purpose. But God tells him that he cant help being Omnipresent.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14Gallery image 15Gallery image 16Gallery image 17Gallery image 18Gallery image 19Gallery image 20

Here Lucifer travels outside of reality itself. The place where no time, or space exist. This place is where reality itself is spawned from. Lucifer questions what is older between this place or God but says the answer is futile. Lucifer runs into beings outside of reality itself, including lilth. There these beings believed Lucifer too was casted out of reality itself and talk about killing him. Then God arrives.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

As you see God arrives.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14Gallery image 15Gallery image 16

Here God tells a story to Lucifer, a story that describes the power of God. In the story, the Buddha (aka God) and the Monkey (aka Lucifer) have a conversation. The Monkey wants to prove he is more powerful than the Buddha. So to prove himself, the Monkey flies to origin of creation, which is outside of reality. To prove that the monkey was there he wrote his name down on a wall. The monkey then returns back to the Buddha to show him his power, only to find out, that the monkey just wrote down his name on the finger of the Buddha. God here is making a point. No matter Lucifer goes, in reality or outside of it, God is there. That all places even nothing itself is God.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13

Lasty, the topic you were talking about. God offers Lucifer a gift, that they share each other identities. God could impose his will on him but does not. Lucifer then makes a comment about him rejecting God and wonders if God is only testing his creation. God answers "no" its your free will. God did make him and give him a role to follow but Lucifer chose not to do it. The offer is a merger of two beings, Lucifer would then become God and would share experiences, and emotions. God is doing this for two reasons. God wants to understand Lucifer's individual feelings, but God also wants Lucifer to understand his feelings. All he is trying to do here is become closer with his son. Lucifer rejects the idea of being connected to his father, and still wants to keep his independence. God then respects Lucifer's choice and promises he wont interfere with him again if thats what Lucifer truly wants.

Ok then what are the external forces he said? GEB is omnipotent? Presence without GEB is omnipotent?

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#134 Edited by supermandefender (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

@lol: Ok then what are the external forces he said? GEB is omnipotent? Presence without GEB is omnipotent?

1.Okay. I want to make something very clear before I get into this. The GEB also known as the Great Darkness was never said to be Omnipotent. It is assumed to be Omnipotent. The reason why is because the GEB existed before creation itself. This raises a question, did God create the GEB before creation or is the GEB apart of God himself? The answer is unknown.

We do know that the GEB is powerful enough to scare even the likes of Lucifer, all of Heaven, and Hell.

All that is known about the GEB is that when God said " Let there be light." The GEB was banished. God put the GEB into a great sleep. After the COIE, a cult woke up the GEB with the hopes that it would destroy God and change the cosmos. When the GEB awoke, heroes tried to stop it but failed. Then Dr.Fate, Etrigan, the Spectre, and Swamp Thing tried to explain to it, what it is. Their answer was that it is the source of all Evil. The GEB got upset and wanted answers from God. The GEB then decided to attack heaven, God interfered merging with the GEB. The GEB was never seen again.

Popular belief says the GEB and God are one and the same. This was never stated but assumed by viners.

Now is the GEB Omnipotent. NO!!!! My reason for this is God has already banished it, and merged or absorbed it. The question is why didnt God destroy it! Can the GEB even be destroyed? We dont have a answer. The fact that we still see the Presence around and not the GEB tells me God imposed his will on it and absorbed it. Thus not destroying all the evil but containing it once again. The fact that God put it into a deep sleep, and forced a merger with it. Tells me that the GEB is not more powerful than God.

2. As far as the External forces go. I answered this 3 times already. I provided all the scans and explained the answer.

God never said he was created. He said he was shaped by External Forces. He used this as a reference to Lucifer. Lucifer believed that God made him the way he is, that God wanted the Devil. God answers him "NO!!" God tells him that he made him but Lucifer is who he is by the Experiences he had in his life. God then said even I was shaped by them. The External Forces are the experiences that shape them into what they are. This is why God wanted to share Experiences with Lucifer. God wanted to feel what Lucifer felt, as well God wanted Lucifer to feel what God felt. Thus they would understand each other better.

Lucifer refused and said" That sounds like hell to me." The reason why he said this is because in sharing each others experiences Lucifer would lose his independence from God and would become a completely different being with different experiences. This was a choice God wanted Lucifer to make. God could have imposed his will but wanted it to be a choice for Lucifer to make. I hope this helps.

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#135 Posted by supermandefender (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

Column HeadColumn HeadColumn Head
differencesimilarity
toaamakes the story of his creationsupreme being of his creation
the presenceis within the storysame

This is wrong. The Presence can exist outside of reality. Presence existed before creation. The Presence does not have to be inside his story. When God disappeared and the Spectre was worried about creation itself. Spectre wanted Lucifer to find him. Lucifer didnt care. Later, Lucifer travels outside of reality itself. There God finds Lucifer. God does not need to exist in the story, he can but doesnt have too.

The difference between the TOAA and the Presence is that Free will is a illusion in the Marvel U, all controlled by the TOAA and in the DCU free will is the gift of God. Free will is a aspect of God shared among all things. The Presence isnt a dictator who manipulates everything but allows things to unfold on their own.

Example: If the Marvel Universe is destroyed by Thanos. TOAA made that happen thru Thanos.

If the Anti-Monitor destroys the DC Universe . Well then the Anti-monitor destroyed the universe. This is not the doing of God. God allows the Anti-monitor to do it.

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#136 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermandefender: go read lucifer series last issues. all you have said are the words of someone who has not even read about him except in wikis. and your last example is totally off the point

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#137 Posted by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

@baron_von_santa said:
Column HeadColumn HeadColumn Head
differencesimilarity
toaamakes the story of his creationsupreme being of his creation
the presenceis within the storysame

This is wrong. The Presence can exist outside of reality. Presence existed before creation. The Presence does not have to be inside his story. When God disappeared and the Spectre was worried about creation itself. Spectre wanted Lucifer to find him. Lucifer didnt care. Later, Lucifer travels outside of reality itself. There God finds Lucifer. God does not need to exist in the story, he can but doesnt have too.

The difference between the TOAA and the Presence is that Free will is a illusion in the Marvel U, all controlled by the TOAA and in the DCU free will is the gift of God. Free will is a aspect of God shared among all things. The Presence isnt a dictator who manipulates everything but allows things to unfold on their own.

Example: If the Marvel Universe is destroyed by Thanos. TOAA made that happen thru Thanos.

If the Anti-Monitor destroys the DC Universe . Well then the Anti-monitor destroyed the universe. This is not the doing of God. God allows the Anti-monitor to do it.

@supermandefender You can honestly stop debating bro. You have posted scans, pictures from the Lucifer books you own yourself, and have thoroughly explained why TOAA and The Presence are indeed equal. You have also explained the flaws in stating otherwise. People who don't want to believe, just won't. I'm telling you, it is just a way for people to make Marvel the better company for whatever reason.

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#139 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermandefender: when lucifer went out of creation, god seems to not have much say, as he has a form. and in order for the presence to leave his creation, he has to go somewhere in order to do that, namely outside his creation. how do you explain that?

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#140 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermandefender: God never stalemated the GEB. You made that up. The GEB is spirit of all the Evil. It is apart of God. At the end of the arc, God merged with his evil again and GEB was never seen again. You tell me how that's a stalemate?

wrong. GEB was seen arm wrestling with god in one issue.

No your wrong! God never said he was created by external forces. I already covered that. God said he was shaped by external forces. Where do you even get the word created? That was never said! He said he was shaped. God here is talking about his personality. Its in reference to how Lucifer feels the way he does. Lucifer is saying God made him this way and God is saying I made you but I didnt shape you.

shaped still means there are forces above him. your point?

Here Lucifer travels outside of reality itself. The place where no time, or space exist. This place is where reality itself is spawned from. Lucifer questions what is older between this place or God but says the answer is futile. Lucifer runs into beings outside of reality itself, including lilth. There these beings believed Lucifer too was casted out of reality itself and talk about killing him. Then God arrives.

the place is the canvas, and god never really answered the question. god has to arrive there, meaning he is not omnipresent outside his creation.

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#141 Edited by supermandefender (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

wrong. GEB was seen arm wrestling with god in one issue.

shaped still means there are forces above him. your point?

the place is the canvas, and god never really answered the question. god has to arrive there, meaning he is not omnipresent outside his creation.

1.You said: wrong. GEB was seen arm wrestling with god in one issue.

Answer:

Your wrong my friend. You are reading the series out of context. The GEB and the Presence were not arm wrestling their hands joined and after they did: the two beings merged or the GEB was absorbed by God. There's not even information in the GEB arc that gives us any definite answer. Its all assumption!

2. You said: shaped still means there are forces above him. your point?


Answer:

Shaped does not mean created. Read my post above! I have explained this 4 times and provided all the scans in the Lucifer-evensong arc. All those pictures were taken by my phone....hell you can see my finger in one of them by accident. So that destroys your notation of me wiki everything. Wiki is generally wrong because they leave out certain facts in the comic.

And being shaped does not mean there are forces above God. If you are reading it that way you are WRONG! The Presence is not applying it that way! And you are taking it out of context!!!! All your answers are in the story of the Mad Monkey King and the Buddha.

Furthermore, the External Forces you are referring to are God's Experiences in creation. This is why he said even he was shaped by them, which means influenced. Read it, its right there, I gave you guys the all the scans above! This is why God wanted to share his Experiences with Lucifer. Or as God put share each others Identities. God would have all of Lucifer memories, experiences, and feelings. And Lucifer would have Gods.

3. You said: the place is the canvas, and god never really answered the question. god has to arrive there, meaning he is not omnipresent outside his creation.


Answer:

Simple answer the Presence tells Lucifer the Story of the Mad Monkey King and the Buddha! This should answer your question. But incase it doesnt Ill post the scan again and this time Larger so you can read it!

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God says he can easily unmake Lucifer.

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Lucifer says that he is a tool of God. God answers he is a aspect of himself in which acts. God is talking about Free will.

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Lucifer can't accept what God is saying. Lucifer is saying his free will is his own. God was saying Free Will is a aspect of himself in which all of creation inherited from him.

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God is talking about the burden of Omnipotence. The conversation isnt about God but he is referring it about himself.

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God wishes to tell Lucifer a story. Note Lucifers reply.

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Gods Story to Lucifer about the Mad Monkey King and the Buddha.

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Monkey King wants to prove he is more powerful than the Buddha.

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Monkey King travelled to the otherside of Infinity. Which as we both known is impossible and not inside of creation.

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Monkey King writes his name on a Pillar outside of Infinity. To prove to the Buddha how powerful he is.

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Monkey King tells Buddha what he did.

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Buddha shows the Monkey that all he did was write his name on the Buddha Finger.

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God is telling Lucifer this story to prove a point. About Futility if Lucifer is looking for a place without God!!! I hope this answers your question! As you see Lucifer response. He finds it offensive!

The point of the story is that the Buddha is God and the Monkey king is Lucifer. All of Lucifer's struggling is pointless.

I hope this paints a picture for you about your question. Yes, God is Omnipresent, even outside of creation. God is what is outside of creation. That pillar the Monkey king writes on, it is outside of infinity and that is only the finger of God. Gods form is the instrument from which he speaks. And thats it! So that form God arrived outside of reality is just a instrument from which he uses. If you dont believe me check the 2nd scan down I posted or picture.

God says and I quote "Just as this is the aspect of myself through which I speak."

God is talking about his physical form. That physical form is not the real form of God. Or the Presence. The true form of the Presence has never been seen. Those physical forms are just a aspect of himself through which he acts or speaks.

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#142 Posted by supermandefender (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu: Thanks, yeah I know how the Vine work and thanks. This is my last post. I should have gave up already. But you know, it still bugs me. :/

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#143 Posted by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermandefender: I know how you feel. But at points like this, people are arguing with you just for the sake of arguing. You have proven your point to everyone who uses logical thinking and even if they can't formulate the proper logic, you have scans. I appreciate what you did. I was feeling how you feel now before you came and helped out, so if is just the two of us, at least we know.

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#144 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio

supermandefender: wrong my friend. You are reading the series out of context. The GEB and the Presence were not arm wrestling their hands joined and after they did: the two beings merged or the GEB was absorbed by God. There's not even information in the GEB arc that gives us any definite answer. Its all assumption!

No Caption Provided

EXPLAIN THIS, THIS IS AFTER THE PRESUMED ABSORPTION.

Shaped does not mean created. Read my post above! I have explained this 4 times and provided all the scans in the Lucifer-evensong arc. All those pictures were taken by my phone....hell you can see my finger in one of them by accident. So that destroys your notation of me wiki everything. Wiki is generally wrong because they leave out certain facts in the comic.

And being shaped does not mean there are forces above God. If you are reading it that way you are WRONG! The Presence is not applying it that way! And you are taking it out of context!!!! All your answers are in the story of the Mad Monkey King and the Buddha.

Furthermore, the External Forces you are referring to are God's Experiences in creation. This is why he said even he was shaped by them, which means influenced. Read it, its right there, I gave you guys the all the scans above! This is why God wanted to share his Experiences with Lucifer. Or as God put share each others Identities. God would have all of Lucifer memories, experiences, and feelings. And Lucifer would have Gods.

'SO, YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE', THIS MEANS EXPERIENCE? REALLY.

Monkey King travelled to the otherside of Infinity. Which as we both known is impossible and not inside of creation.

YOU ARE ASSUMING AGAIN. THIS IS RIDICULOUS. SUPERMANS FLIGHT SPEED TRANSCENDED INFINITY, YET HE DID NOT GO OUTSIDE CREATION, SO THIS IS CLEARLY WRONG.

ALL YOU HAVE SAID ARE ASSUMPTIONS MUCH LIKE MANY PEOPLE WHO ASSUME SUPERMAN PRIME IS SECOND MOST POWERFUL IN DC.

Rijehu IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, TRY NOT TO ASSUME THAT I AM ARGUING, I AM REASONING. BUT YOU SEEM TO BE AN ALT, NOT USEFUL TO DEBATE WITH, HERE ONLY TO OFFER SUPPORT

@killemall

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#145 Posted by Kingant27 (16918 posts) - - Show Bio

GEB Should be higher but by feats LT stomps.

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#146 Posted by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

supermandefender: wrong my friend. You are reading the series out of context. The GEB and the Presence were not arm wrestling their hands joined and after they did: the two beings merged or the GEB was absorbed by God. There's not even information in the GEB arc that gives us any definite answer. Its all assumption!

No Caption Provided

EXPLAIN THIS, THIS IS AFTER THE PRESUMED ABSORPTION.

Shaped does not mean created. Read my post above! I have explained this 4 times and provided all the scans in the Lucifer-evensong arc. All those pictures were taken by my phone....hell you can see my finger in one of them by accident. So that destroys your notation of me wiki everything. Wiki is generally wrong because they leave out certain facts in the comic.

And being shaped does not mean there are forces above God. If you are reading it that way you are WRONG! The Presence is not applying it that way! And you are taking it out of context!!!! All your answers are in the story of the Mad Monkey King and the Buddha.

Furthermore, the External Forces you are referring to are God's Experiences in creation. This is why he said even he was shaped by them, which means influenced. Read it, its right there, I gave you guys the all the scans above! This is why God wanted to share his Experiences with Lucifer. Or as God put share each others Identities. God would have all of Lucifer memories, experiences, and feelings. And Lucifer would have Gods.

'SO, YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE', THIS MEANS EXPERIENCE? REALLY.

Monkey King travelled to the otherside of Infinity. Which as we both known is impossible and not inside of creation.

YOU ARE ASSUMING AGAIN. THIS IS RIDICULOUS. SUPERMANS FLIGHT SPEED TRANSCENDED INFINITY, YET HE DID NOT GO OUTSIDE CREATION, SO THIS IS CLEARLY WRONG.

ALL YOU HAVE SAID ARE ASSUMPTIONS MUCH LIKE MANY PEOPLE WHO ASSUME SUPERMAN PRIME IS SECOND MOST POWERFUL IN DC.

Rijehu IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, TRY NOT TO ASSUME THAT I AM ARGUING, I AM REASONING. BUT YOU SEEM TO BE AN ALT, NOT USEFUL TO DEBATE WITH, HERE ONLY TO OFFER SUPPORT

I do know what you are talking about, but as I said many times before, I still believe that TOOA and The Presence are equal, and that The Presence is indeed Omnipotent. And don't insult me, if you can recall, you and I have also debated on the manner but because you have yet to present any type of considerable information on why you even think TOAA is superior, I quit debating because it became pointless. If I was as useless a debater as you claim I am, you would not have responded to any of my posts. Not to mention the amounts of times you have lent your help to others on this board. You have a tendency to label people by throwing the cliche "Fanboy" defense around when someone disagrees with you. I am not a Fanboy, I'm not proclaiming that The Presence obliterates TOAA, because he can't, but I also feel that TOAA can do nothing to The Presence. You have yet to prove how one could destroy the other and that "erasing The Presence" idea has been dismissed because not even the "writer" of Marvel has power over DC.

Also, I don't recall actually singling you out when I made the arguing statement, but since you replied, I am assuming you were offended. That was not my intention, so for that I do apologize. I started following you for a reason and that was because I liked your knowledge on certain subjects and for the most part, you have had informative and thought provoking opinions on threads. This is one I just disagreed with but I don't feel you have to call me a fanboy or useless for such. This guy doesn't need my support because he is doing one heck of a job defending his claims. I just feel that it is pointless to keep debating when obviously neither of you are going to change your minds, or at least come to some mutual understanding. In any case, I respect your belief...but I chose to have another.

@killemall

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#147 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (5846 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu: and i respect that, sorry about that

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#148 Edited by Rijehu (1842 posts) - - Show Bio
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#149 Posted by KingOfAsh (3935 posts) - - Show Bio

The Protege and Scathan aren't omnipotent and they are way stronger than the Living Tribunal. I'd say the Great Evil Beast wins with some annoyance.

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#150 Edited by supermandefender (2170 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu said:

@baron_von_santa said:

supermandefender: wrong my friend. You are reading the series out of context. The GEB and the Presence were not arm wrestling their hands joined and after they did: the two beings merged or the GEB was absorbed by God. There's not even information in the GEB arc that gives us any definite answer. Its all assumption!

No Caption Provided

EXPLAIN THIS, THIS IS AFTER THE PRESUMED ABSORPTION.

Shaped does not mean created. Read my post above! I have explained this 4 times and provided all the scans in the Lucifer-evensong arc. All those pictures were taken by my phone....hell you can see my finger in one of them by accident. So that destroys your notation of me wiki everything. Wiki is generally wrong because they leave out certain facts in the comic.

And being shaped does not mean there are forces above God. If you are reading it that way you are WRONG! The Presence is not applying it that way! And you are taking it out of context!!!! All your answers are in the story of the Mad Monkey King and the Buddha.

Furthermore, the External Forces you are referring to are God's Experiences in creation. This is why he said even he was shaped by them, which means influenced. Read it, its right there, I gave you guys the all the scans above! This is why God wanted to share his Experiences with Lucifer. Or as God put share each others Identities. God would have all of Lucifer memories, experiences, and feelings. And Lucifer would have Gods.

'SO, YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE', THIS MEANS EXPERIENCE? REALLY.

Monkey King travelled to the otherside of Infinity. Which as we both known is impossible and not inside of creation.

YOU ARE ASSUMING AGAIN. THIS IS RIDICULOUS. SUPERMANS FLIGHT SPEED TRANSCENDED INFINITY, YET HE DID NOT GO OUTSIDE CREATION, SO THIS IS CLEARLY WRONG.

ALL YOU HAVE SAID ARE ASSUMPTIONS MUCH LIKE MANY PEOPLE WHO ASSUME SUPERMAN PRIME IS SECOND MOST POWERFUL IN DC.

Rijehu IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, TRY NOT TO ASSUME THAT I AM ARGUING, I AM REASONING. BUT YOU SEEM TO BE AN ALT, NOT USEFUL TO DEBATE WITH, HERE ONLY TO OFFER SUPPORT

I do know what you are talking about, but as I said many times before, I still believe that TOOA and The Presence are equal, and that The Presence is indeed Omnipotent. And don't insult me, if you can recall, you and I have also debated on the manner but because you have yet to present any type of considerable information on why you even think TOAA is superior, I quit debating because it became pointless. If I was as useless a debater as you claim I am, you would not have responded to any of my posts. Not to mention the amounts of times you have lent your help to others on this board. You have a tendency to label people by throwing the cliche "Fanboy" defense around when someone disagrees with you. I am not a Fanboy, I'm not proclaiming that The Presence obliterates TOAA, because he can't, but I also feel that TOAA can do nothing to The Presence. You have yet to prove how one could destroy the other and that "erasing The Presence" idea has been dismissed because not even the "writer" of Marvel has power over DC.

Also, I don't recall actually singling you out when I made the arguing statement, but since you replied, I am assuming you were offended. That was not my intention, so for that I do apologize. I started following you for a reason and that was because I liked your knowledge on certain subjects and for the most part, you have had informative and thought provoking opinions on threads. This is one I just disagreed with but I don't feel you have to call me a fanboy or useless for such. This guy doesn't need my support because he is doing one heck of a job defending his claims. I just feel that it is pointless to keep debating when obviously neither of you are going to change your minds, or at least come to some mutual understanding. In any case, I respect your belief...but I chose to have another.

@killemall

Rijehu you don't have to apologize to the guy. For one he is wrong. And two this is a open debate forum and you are free to voice your opinion. Just because he finds your opinions flawed does not mean they are or that you have to explain yourself to him. And likewise, he doesnt need to explain his thinking to you. Now he said he was reasoning with me but in my mind there's nothing to reason because they flat out tell you. It's the readers fault if they don't understand the context. And because his view of the Presence is off, that effects all of his debating and whether he realizes it or not he is wrong. But he is only wrong because of his view of the Presence. Just like many people are wrong debating science based off of many view points. If I try to explain gravity to a person who believe the world is flat, well then its going to go above their head because their view of the world is blocking them from a simple understanding.

Baron your view of the Presence is wrong. Think of the Presence as a God head or a brain. Now my brain controls all the little functions of my entire body. Both inside and out! Now see the Presence as formless, before creation, not a physical being, who can control the individual functions of his creation. He can alter it anyway he sees fit. However, their is a problem. Creation itself is spawned from him and all the life in it is also like him. They have freedom, choice, emotions, ect just like God. They are also his children because they are all apart of him. Likewise, they all mean something to him. Now because of choice- there is both good and evil and God siding with Good because he sees that it is better than Evil. That Good=Life and Evil=destruction.

Now the Presence in a physical body, the one we see is the form from which God decides to act or speak. That form is not the Presence himself. Because that form is the form from which God decides to act or speak, he has all the power of the Presence at his disposal. He is the Presence, but at the sametime, that's not who he is.

Now the GEB is the aspect of all Darkness not pure Evil but is said to be pure Evil. This aspect is apart of God, while it is not Omnipotent it is a extremely powerful force in creation. The GEB is the aspect of two opposing forces that are fundamental to creation itself. And those forces are the right to choose Evil or Good. For the Presence to annihilate the GEB entirely, he would be taking away all of creation itself. Hence, the merger or whatever happened. The arc really doesnt have enough information. We dont know if the GEB is gone or if he was absorbed into the presence or whatever happened. We don't know much about the outcome besides balance. We dont know hardly anything. What we do know, is the GEB wanted answers- which the GEB spared the Spectre, Fate, Etrigan, and Swamp Thing after recieving answers it didnt like. However, something pure would not do that! I mean that does not make sense. There is nothing good about pure evil. So why did the GEB spare them? The only answer is that it cannot be pure evil.

Now to scans.

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Now Swamp Things answer to Evil was the only answer the Beast accepted. Etrigan's theory didnt work for him, Spectres didnt either, none of theirs did. Only the Swamp Thing was allowed to walk out. And notice what the GEB says " Little Thing, I sense a great and final end approaching. I would be alone." The GEB is sensing the Presence and that the Presence is deciding to act. The GEB isnt saying he is going to battle with God, the GEB isnt even questioning if he is more powerful. All he is saying is I feel the end is coming, id like to be alone.

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Here you are seeing what seems like a merger or something that we cannot comprehend is happening. That last picture you showed me is the finale outcome of what happened. Its not a struggle, it is not a fight or stalemate, it is the solution to the GEB. Further, example.

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As you can see. The Darkness and Light are important to creation itself. It has nothing to do with the Omnipotent power of God.

SO, YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE', THIS MEANS EXPERIENCE? REALLY.

First off, its not " You know WHO they are." It's " You know WHAT they are." There is a difference.

Secondly, the Experience I am talking about is. Gods creations. That they have free will. That they all have ideals, emotions, wants, needs, ect ect. What Im talking about is Gods creations and his experiences with them. That their influence shapes him.

Just like how the Economy shapes the way the World works. Actually the Economy is a perfect example because the Economy represents all of us as a whole and it is a Prime example of a External Forces.

Now when you shape something; you are not creating it. You are altering its former state.

Now that we got that out of the way. We can use it properly in a sentence. My business is shaped by Forces External to me. Even though I made my business, the Economy is the force that is making me do something that I might not want to do. I have to shape my business according to Economy or I get no business. When I talk about Forces with a s at the end. It means more than one type of force is effecting me. So other opposing forces to my business can be some rich powerful person trying to close me down or many other things.