The Fire Nation Siblings Battle: Ozai/Iroh vs Azula/Zuko (No Bending)

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#51 Posted by redhoodsavagery (218 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17 said:
@redhoodsavagery said:

azula is overrated

Based on?

Azula might be overrated, but her royal elders are even more overrated.

@redhoodsavagery said:

azula is overrated

Based on?

i mean she kind of is people think a sane azula can beat sozins comet zuko and ozai while sane

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#52 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@redhoodsavagery said:
@anthp2000 said:
@itachus17 said:
@redhoodsavagery said:

azula is overrated

Based on?

Azula might be overrated, but her royal elders are even more overrated.

@itachus17 said:
@redhoodsavagery said:

azula is overrated

Based on?

i mean she kind of is people think a sane azula can beat sozins comet zuko and ozai while sane

If she's enhansed by SC too she can... What's the problem with that?

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#53 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@redhoodsavagery:

i mean she kind of is people think a sane azula can beat sozins comet zuko and ozai while sane

Current(Kemurikage) Azula has if also comet powered a pretty solid chance against comet Ozai and destroys comet Zuko, just sane pre-Mai and Ty Lee's betrayal Azula would still beat Zuko.

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#54 Posted by redhoodsavagery (218 posts) - - Show Bio

i mean people think she can beat comet zuko and comet ozai together 2v1 not 1v1

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#55 Posted by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

i mean people think she can beat comet zuko and comet ozai together 2v1 not 1v1

Where did you read that?

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#56 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: How does keeping up with them make her faster? If she was able to, in CQ, pressure the same Azula that dodged Mai's attack and kicked her before she could react simultaneously or the same Azula who could dance around Ty Lee and Suki then she must either be a lot faster than them or a lot more skilled in CQ, and clearly, none of that is remotely true which is evidence that Azula got much faster.

I always thought they simply incorporated their martial forms into h2h. Waterbender, earthbenders and airbenders hardly use as many fighting forms but if you look at firebending forms, most of their movements actually do translate into h2h. But really, even if we go by what you're saying, there's still no evidence that Ozai has the same or even similar training to Azula.

All I remember in the first episodes is him throwing fire... Apart from heatbending, he didn't do anything impressive skill-wise.

The prison break feat does not stand up to Azula's feats from S&S. She's on another level than anyone here by feats, and Zuko should be around his level. Ozai is simply featless. I'm not abandoning this logic here. This isn't a bending battle, this is a h2h fight. Nothing proves Iroh or Ozai are just as good in CQ just because they are on that level bending-wise. Furthermore, the in-verse logic in Avatar is mostly hype, and that's not nearly as trustworthy as feats though that's another story. And Piandao would beat Zuko because he was stated to be he best swordsman in history, he trained him and taught him everything he knows and he has the feats to at least support the statement. I didn't see anyone saying Iroh or Ozai are he best h2h combatants in history or something. Iroh barely has showings to support such a claim and Ozai has zero.

Close quarters waterbending doesn't translate as well to unarmed combat, and you're really reaching here. Katara was fast enough to react to Mai's projectiles and trap her arm. She was fast enough to evade strikes from Ty Lee and counter with waterbending attacks. She never had a fight with Suki to compare. Putting pressure on Azula with bending doesn't have to mean she's as agile or quick in basic hand to hand as Azula

Considering both Ozai and Azula grew up in the royal family and would've received the best available training, what evidence is there to suggest that their training wouldn't have been at all similar? Logically, their training would have encompassed the same concepts, unless there's a reason otherwise

You're really overselling Azula's S&S feats. She's got good speed feats there, sure, but speed is not the only factor in a fight. There's a reason weight classes exist in MMA or other combat sports-strength and power is just as important as speed. Azula can dance around and trip up opponents, but she doesn't have good showings for actually dealing damage in h2h. No, I'm not saying it's impossible for her to strike vulnerable areas, but that's easier said than done in a fight. Technically, she doesn't have any feats of actually putting someone down h2h, not even a fodder

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#57 Posted by SoImMe (335 posts) - - Show Bio

Azula solos all three

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#58 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Why doesn't it translate? It was a battle between Azula and Katara, at point blank range. If Azula can hit Ty Lee and Suki before they can react or dodge attacks and simultaneously hit someone like Mai, then there's no reason why she can't simply do the same with Katara unless you think Katara is faster. I don't know how clearer I can put it together.

The reason is, Ozai is a featless h2h combatants whereas Azula has some of the best skill feats in the series that don't necessary attribute to bending. Just like how Ozai did not recieve training from Ty Lee and Mai, there's no reason to assume he also recieved h2h training. Zuko is as good of a firebender as Azula by now and he is not even close to her in h2h combat. Why should I assume Ozai is?

I'm not overselling anything. Her feats cannot be clearer there. She hits some of the fastest people in the series before they can react and dances around their attacks. If anything, you're just backing Ozai and Iroh because you hold them on such high regard as fighters that you think they never lose, even though they barely have feats and questionable statements.

Besides, it's not just her S&S feats. It's the combination of those feats and the martial skill she has shown throughout the series.

Why would she have to deal damage in h2h like that? She always had firebending. She never needed to. And she has good strength feats like kicking rocks away and supporting her entire body weight on 2 arms on the gondola. She also blocked Suki's fist with her own. Based on the simple facts that her showings of speed and skill are well above anyone else's here, she can and she will hit anywhere she has to to win.

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#59 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Technically, she doesn't have any feats of actually putting someone down h2h, not even a fodder

Are we talking about the same series and comics here?

Also how many people was Ozai able to put down with h2h?

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#60 Posted by cpt_nice (10082 posts) - - Show Bio

The whelps both rounds, 2 being a stomp. Azula is the agilest one here by far and has some pretty insane feats without bending. Zuko is nothing to scoff at either. Iroh is good, but Ozai is a weak link without bending. Does he even have any h2h feats?

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#62 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: You sadly never answered to my (other bigger)response, but let's just start with this:

Come on people, I'm not saying this example was a fair fight, but if Azula was way too fast for Iroh, then this never would've happened

I see not how a surprise attack against a obviously inferior version proves anything, especially after this:

No Caption Provided

Sure his initial grabbing of her was a blindside, but if she was too fast for him, she would've been able to react before he kicked her off the boat (since he took a bit of time to redirect her lighting), but she didn't.

Where do you see her not being able to react there, he simply grabbed her and she was probably surprised. Is your claim srsly Azula would need several seconds to react to something, so basically worse than average human lvl?

Sure, by the time of the comics, Azula's probably faster. But people are seriously overrating her here.

That is pretty obviously, and i have more the strong feeling you're srsly underestimating her here(especially after the absurd fodder comment).

Being faster and more agile doesn't automatically grant you a win by any means.

If you're also a better h2h fighter looks it usually pretty bad for the opponent and before you come with weight classes:

I'm an amateur Muay Thai fighter myself(also boxing and judo in the past), the big guys usually aren't rly slower at least not to a very relevant degree. But if you rly would just put an significantly faster and more agile guy(especially if he's also more skilled) together with a bigger stronger guy, would the fight most likely end in favour of the weaker guy if he's halfway intelligent(he would let the big guy completely gas and then pretty easily win). But like mentioned in reality is a half as big guy not 2 times faster(even more than 1,25 times would be already pretty rare). Also would be a sport fight with rules in such a scenario highly advantagous for the big guy.

Iroh's faster than people are giving him credit for

Based on what exactly?

and as for Ozai, Azula's not strong enough to put him down. This is a guy who was tanking Avatar State attacks, while Azula could maybe trip him up, she doesn't have showings or implied ability to be able to seriously hurt him with her bare hands.

Considering that a simple kick of Azula was enough to bring Zuko to the ground(i'm pretty sure you know his durability, but i will post some feats later on):

No Caption Provided

Or bring him otherwise to the ground:

No Caption Provided

Should that be also clearly work with Ozai, which is everything she needs.

To make the comparison with reality again, serious fight you on the ground = very big problem.

And now have we Azula standing over Ozai, the easiest thing she could do is to just stomp his throath(he absolutely not tanks that). Or stomp/soccerkick his head(should do at least pretty considerable damage), and several other nasty methods. Zuko wouldn't do that, but Azula would without Nick censorship/PG problems.

He's a full grown man while she's a teenage girl, and she doesn't have Ty Lee's ability to bypass durability by chi blocking

How many teenage girls(or even male peak humans) do you know exactly, who can do that:

Upper body:

No Caption Provided

Lower body:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Upper and Lower body:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I'm pretty sure we're both aware of the point that Azula most likely stronger than tons of grown men in the Avatarverse is(the only thing Ozai rly has, is almost dbz like powerscaling in that reagard, let alone that 1 kick of her to the mid-body region of Zuko easily brought him to the ground.

Also had even book 1 Zuko already such striking feats:

Lower body:

No Caption Provided

Or later on(book 3) upper body:

No Caption Provided

And Azula had still no problems with him, and brought even most likely stronger versions of him to the ground.

Which feats(or anything else) on the other hand has Ozai(or actually even Iroh, but he has at least something), to suggest he could take Azula down:

Shockwave:

No Caption Provided

Pretty much directly after that:

No Caption Provided

Unharmed.

Or Zuko(i could also post feats for him, if necessary)?

And i mean that was @anthp2000 actual claim for round 1, and i agreed:

Theoritically R1 could go either way, but the young ones have feats so I'm probably going with them.

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#63 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Technically, she doesn't have any feats of actually putting someone down h2h, not even a fodder

Are we talking about the same series and comics here?

Also how many people was Ozai able to put down with h2h?

Show me her actually ko'ing someone h2h

@arcus1: You sadly never answered to my (other bigger)response, but let's just start with this:

Come on people, I'm not saying this example was a fair fight, but if Azula was way too fast for Iroh, then this never would've happened

I see not how a surprise attack against a obviously inferior version proves anything, especially after this:

No Caption Provided

Sure his initial grabbing of her was a blindside, but if she was too fast for him, she would've been able to react before he kicked her off the boat (since he took a bit of time to redirect her lighting), but she didn't.

Where do you see her not being able to react there, he simply grabbed her and she was probably surprised. Is your claim srsly Azula would need several seconds to react to something, so basically worse than average human lvl?

Sure, by the time of the comics, Azula's probably faster. But people are seriously overrating her here.

That is pretty obviously, and i have more the strong feeling you're srsly underestimating her here(especially after the absurd fodder comment).

Being faster and more agile doesn't automatically grant you a win by any means.

If you're also a better h2h fighter looks it usually pretty bad for the opponent and before you come with weight classes:

I'm an amateur Muay Thai fighter myself(also boxing and judo in the past), the big guys usually aren't rly slower at least not to a very relevant degree. But if you rly would just put an significantly faster and more agile guy(especially if he's also more skilled) together with a bigger stronger guy, would the fight most likely end in favour of the weaker guy if he's halfway intelligent(he would let the big guy completely gas and then pretty easily win). But like mentioned in reality is a half as big guy not 2 times faster(even more than 1,25 times would be already pretty rare). Also would be a sport fight with rules in such a scenario highly advantagous for the big guy.

Iroh's faster than people are giving him credit for

Based on what exactly?

and as for Ozai, Azula's not strong enough to put him down. This is a guy who was tanking Avatar State attacks, while Azula could maybe trip him up, she doesn't have showings or implied ability to be able to seriously hurt him with her bare hands.

Considering that a simple kick of Azula was enough to bring Zuko to the ground(i'm pretty sure you know his durability, but i will post some feats later on):

No Caption Provided

Or bring him otherwise to the ground:

No Caption Provided

Should that be also clearly work with Ozai, which is everything she needs.

To make the comparison with reality again, serious fight you on the ground = very big problem.

And now have we Azula standing over Ozai, the easiest thing she could do is to just stomp his throath(he absolutely not tanks that). Or stomp/soccerkick his head(should do at least pretty considerable damage), and several other nasty methods. Zuko wouldn't do that, but Azula would without Nick censorship/PG problems.

He's a full grown man while she's a teenage girl, and she doesn't have Ty Lee's ability to bypass durability by chi blocking

How many teenage girls(or even male peak humans) do you know exactly, who can do that:

Upper body:

No Caption Provided

Lower body:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Upper and Lower body:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I'm pretty sure we're both aware of the point that Azula most likely stronger than tons of grown men in the Avatarverse is(the only thing Ozai rly has, is almost dbz like powerscaling in that reagard, let alone that 1 kick of her to the mid-body region of Zuko easily brought him to the ground.

Also had even book 1 Zuko already such striking feats:

Lower body:

No Caption Provided

Or later on(book 3) upper body:

No Caption Provided

And Azula had still no problems with him, and brought even most likely stronger versions of him to the ground.

Which feats(or anything else) on the other hand has Ozai(or actually even Iroh, but he has at least something), to suggest he could take Azula down:

Shockwave:

No Caption Provided

Pretty much directly after that:

No Caption Provided

Unharmed.

Or Zuko(i could also post feats for him, if necessary)?

And i mean that was @anthp2000 actual claim for round 1, and i agreed:

Theoritically R1 could go either way, but the young ones have feats so I'm probably going with them.

Yeah, Azula shot Iroh while Iroh was realizing Toph was with the Avatar and, being Iroh, more concerned with the others than himself. Pus everyone thought she had surrendered, weren't expecting an attack. It's nice, but doesn't negate Iroh's showing against Azula. If she was way faster than him, the boat showing shouldn't have happened

Sure she knocked Zuko down, but he wasn't even visibly hurt. He was still trying to talk Azula down

And besides, it's not like that's the first time Azula and Zuko have been in that position. Zuko went on to win after being kicked down this time

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

I never said Azula was only as strong as a real world teenage girl. Avatarverse humans consistently have way better physicals than real world humans. You're arguing against something I never said.

The simple logic that a full grown man in prime physical condition will be stronger than a teenage girl in prime physical condition still applies. Sure, Azula could be stronger than some adult men in Avatar, but those men aren't in the same physical condition as someone like Ozai, who, judging by the sheer durability he showed against AS Aang, is in peak physical form

Iroh has feats of casually shattering boulders by swinging chains, flinging an earthbent boulder back at the earthbenders, completely shattering it and ko'ing them, apparently breaking metal bars in his prison escape, actually ko'ing someone. Yeah, he's got enough, not enough to one-shot Azula or anything, but enough to overwhelm her durability (especially since, with the drill scene, as far as we know she didn't get slammed into anything, just sent flying backwards until she managed to stop. Without actually seeing her hit something, it's not that impressive of a durability feat, relative to others). Zuko would be trickier.

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#64 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Why doesn't it translate? It was a battle between Azula and Katara, at point blank range. If Azula can hit Ty Lee and Suki before they can react or dodge attacks and simultaneously hit someone like Mai, then there's no reason why she can't simply do the same with Katara unless you think Katara is faster. I don't know how clearer I can put it together.

The reason is, Ozai is a featless h2h combatants whereas Azula has some of the best skill feats in the series that don't necessary attribute to bending. Just like how Ozai did not recieve training from Ty Lee and Mai, there's no reason to assume he also recieved h2h training. Zuko is as good of a firebender as Azula by now and he is not even close to her in h2h combat. Why should I assume Ozai is?

I'm not overselling anything. Her feats cannot be clearer there. She hits some of the fastest people in the series before they can react and dances around their attacks. If anything, you're just backing Ozai and Iroh because you hold them on such high regard as fighters that you think they never lose, even though they barely have feats and questionable statements.

Besides, it's not just her S&S feats. It's the combination of those feats and the martial skill she has shown throughout the series.

Why would she have to deal damage in h2h like that? She always had firebending. She never needed to. And she has good strength feats like kicking rocks away and supporting her entire body weight on 2 arms on the gondola. She also blocked Suki's fist with her own. Based on the simple facts that her showings of speed and skill are well above anyone else's here, she can and she will hit anywhere she has to to win.

Becuase Katara could defend with waterbending moves that the others lack.

The only training that I've ever even seen mentioned that Azula got from Ty Lee and Mai was in marksmanship and agility, not h2h.

Zuko took Azula down h2h in The Search despite being knocked to the ground in the same manner he was in S&S

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Uploaded in reverse order

She hit Suki and Ty Lee, it's not like they couldn't even tell she was attacking or something

Hey, you're the one arguing the stricter "feats only" logic here, well strictly by feats (not implication), Azula doesn't have the damage output to hurt someone like Ozai or arguably even Iroh without very well placed strikes on weak spots that will be more difficult to hit (and that she doesn't have feats of using)

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#65 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: I didn't see Katara defending with waterbending when she sliced some of Azula's hair in the catacombs at point blank range. She did exactly what Mai, Ty Lee and Suki did but did not get hit like that.

I didn't say Mai or Ty Lee trained her in h2h. All I said is that just like how Ozai did not have any training like that, it's just as easy to assume he did not have h2h training. I get your point but it's too many maybes.

Azula was at her litteraly worst on The Search, whereas she is at either best in S&S. I'm not sure what your point here is. If anything, these scans prove her advancement.

I certainly did not see either of them doing anything about it.

No. If I was arguing that strict "feats only" logic like you say, then Iroh or Ozai would be unable to keep up, unskilled etc. On the contrary, I gave them he benefit of the doubt and said "let's assume Ozai is as skilled as Zuko and that Iroh is a tad better" and "let's assume both elders are as fast as the best non-benders we've seen", well I still don't see this as enough at all to beat someone like Azula. She's still faster, she's still more skilled and she's still strong enough or at least can hit weak points that I don't believe will be as hard to hit as you're making them out to be.

On a side note, I'm pretty sure there's nothing Azula would be able to do other than tank a slam after the shockwave in The Drill.

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#66 Posted by redhoodsavagery (218 posts) - - Show Bio

@redhoodsavagery said:

i mean people think she can beat comet zuko and comet ozai together 2v1 not 1v1

Where did you read that?

alot of people i see online say this

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#67 Posted by vengefulshot (2205 posts) - - Show Bio

Ozai is featless. So is Azulas dagger for round 2 but her H2H is good enough that it doesn't matter at all.

Kiddos stomp both rounds. Ozai is a non factor.

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#68 Posted by RaimundoPedrosa (1092 posts) - - Show Bio

Azula takes down Ozai in hand-to-hand, and Zuko straight up murders both Ozai and Iroh with the swords.

With firebending on, it would still be a curbstomp in Zuko's and Azula's favor, as Zuko would duke it out with Ozai, while Azula quickly blitzes her Uncle Fatso with lightning, re-redirects it at him to kill him, and then kills her father, too, as he's defenseless against lightning+Zuko.

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#69 Posted by Crimson-Feather (183 posts) - - Show Bio

The kids definitely win, and i even think Azula could solo both rounds, and Zuko at least round 2.

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#70 Posted by thebluedragon20 (31 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm. R1 I would actually say goes to Iroh. Since its book 3 versions, I would say Iroh is physically the strongest after his conditioning in prison. Blitzing Azula before she can shoot her lightning, and Zhao before he could burn Zuko plus dodging arrows from the rough rhino gives the speed to take all but Zuko. I would also say he's the most skilled h2h combatant based on his knowledge when he was teaching the mugger, his possible training of Zuko.
Round 2, Zuko stomps nuff said.

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#71 Posted by mialthefencer (367 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 I might back the elders due to sheer stats. Round 2, Zuko carves them up.

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#72 Edited by Amendment50 (15844 posts) - - Show Bio

I think team 1 is a lot more dependent on their bending overall. With respect to round 2 in particular, the show was pretty clear that an unarmed Ozai was helpless against an armed Zuko during the eclipse, so that round really shouldn't be much of a contest.

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#73 Edited by Crimson-Feather (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebluedragon20 said:

Hmmm. R1 I would actually say goes to Iroh. Since its book 3 versions, I would say Iroh is physically the strongest after his conditioning in prison. Blitzing Azula before she can shoot her lightning, and Zhao before he could burn Zuko plus dodging arrows from the rough rhino gives the speed to take all but Zuko. I would also say he's the most skilled h2h combatant based on his knowledge when he was teaching the mugger, his possible training of Zuko.

Round 2, Zuko stomps nuff said.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

This thread allows comic feats, Azula is way too fast for Iroh to even coming close to blitzing her, Zuko is also slower than Azula, nobody could use lightning or fire, Azula is the by far most skilled h2h combatant here, and not a single word you said had any understandable logic.

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#74 Edited by Crimson-Feather (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@mialthefencer said:

Round 1 I might back the elders due to sheer stats. Round 2, Zuko carves them up.

Ozai has no h2h feats to speak of, no strength feats, or many other stats that would help barring durability. And was scarred of Zuko with swords, Iroh would have been probably not as scarred as Ozai but Azula would have taken on Zuko without any hestitation.

Azula has better h2h feats than the other three together, Zuko is at least almost as strong as Iroh, both kids have ridiculous durability too, and Azula is strong enough to deal with Zuko in a physical match.

So are you saying Iroh solos despite his far worse h2h feats, and less agility and speed, just due to his small stats advantage?

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#75 Posted by mialthefencer (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@crimson-feather

Ozai has no h2h feats, no strength feats, or many other stats that would help barring durability.

Dude is ripped. I think he's probably pretty strong. And his durability is absolutely through the roof.

And was scarred of Zuko with swords,

Yeah. If you noticed, I said that the kids win R2 due to swords.

Iroh would have been probably not as scarred as Ozai

Iroh probably would've talked him down, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove.

but Azula would have taken on Zuko without any hestitation.

Proof? Azula was never in that situation.

Azula has much better h2h feats than the other three together,

Azula is clearly very skilled, but she lacks the strength to actually hurt someone on Ozai's level of durability. Once Iroh grabbed her, she was unable to escape his grip, and that was before he got buff.

Zuko is at least almost as strong as Iroh, both kids have ridiculous durability too,

Zuko has the stats to be sure, but Azula doesn't.

and Azula is strong enough to deal with Zuko in a physical match.

Azula has never injured Zuko in H2H. Knocking someone over =/= hurting them. Zuko has outright caught a kick from Azula before with his bare hands, he's clearly much stronger physically (as is Iroh, and with some extremely simple assumptions Ozai).

So are you telling me Iroh solos with his far worse h2h feats, and less agility and speed, due to his small stats advantage?

No. I'm saying if we make some reasonable inferences about Ozai (that he's physically stronger than Zuko or especially Azula and that he's a skilled martial artist, which a high end firebender has to be, especially since he probably received similar training to Azula) then the two of them can win round 1 due to better stats, which are a huge advantage in a H2H fight.

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#76 Posted by thebluedragon20 (31 posts) - - Show Bio

@crimson-feather I'm not saying Iroh would solo or anything, or that he would blitz Azula, I was saying that based on the few h2h feets we have of Iroh, which is ironically more than his bending feats, he has the skill, knowledge, strength, and speed to the mvp of his team, this along with Ozais insane durability should be enough to take on the younger siblings.

As for R2, Zuko with his swords has taken on an entire fortress of soldiers with Aang, he could easily solo both of the elders.

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#77 Edited by Crimson-Feather (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@mialthefencer:

Dude is ripped. I think he's probably pretty strong. And his durability is absolutely through the roof.

Dude has not proven anything, since when counts being ripped as strength feat? And the durability of all four is through the roof.

Yeah. If you noticed, I said that the kids win R2 due to swords.

It showed that Ozai is very likely not that good without his bending.

Iroh probably would've talked him down, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove.

The point that nobody else of the combatants her would have sit down, just because of Zuko with swords.

Proof? Azula was never in that situation.

Have you watched that episode?

Aang's airbending >>>>> Zuko's sword. Toph and Sokka were also there, but admiditly most of the time occupied by the Dai Li

Azula also took on Zuko who was using fire generated blades and firebending with h2h, in their first match.

And trashed armed Suki in the comics, bitch slapped Ty Lee, brought Mai to the ground, and has proven that she is a far better h2h fighter than Zuko.

If you are saying just Zuko with swords could scarre Azula, would i have to doubt your integrity, or assume you barely remember much of the relevant episodes and comic issues.

Azula is clearly very skilled, but she lacks the strength to actually hurt someone on Ozai's level of durability.

Once Iroh grabbed her, she was unable to escape his grip, and that was before he got buff.

Azula doesn't lack that strength at all, she could hurt and deal with Zuko who has very comparable durability. If anything lacks Ozai the strength to hurt anyone here, and he also lacks the skill.

And that was long before Azula came back in the comics, and Azula didn't even try to escape Iroh's grip as he surprised her, so that example is anyways dishonest. And last but not least is Azula a combatant who uses striking attacks not a grappler, and she has after Zuko the best striking feats of the four.

Zuko has the stats to be sure, but Azula doesn't.

That is a straight faced lie, Azula took on Zuko in physical confrontations, and Zuko's stats wer never any dealbreaker. And Azula has anyways far better speed related stats.

Azula has never injured Zuko in H2H. Knocking someone over =/= hurting them. Zuko has outright caught a kick from Azula before with his bare hands, he's clearly much stronger physically (as is Iroh, and with some extremely simple assumptions Ozai).

That are two more straight faced lies, Azula has hurt Zuko, and Zuko has never caught a kick from Azula before. Ozai has no strength feats to speak of, and i get strongly the feeling you are dishonest on purpose.

No. I'm saying if we make some reasonable inferences about Ozai (that he's physically stronger than Zuko or especially Azula and that he's a skilled martial artist, which a high end firebender has to be, especially since he probably received similar training to Azula) then the two of them can win round 1 due to better stats, which are a huge advantage in a H2H fight.

Ok that was my last conversation with you in this thread, you are straight faced lying to me, making unproven assumptions, and even lowball Azula like your life would depend on it.

I'm here to have fruitful discussions, and maybe learn a thing or two. Not to get angry because i have the feeling the other person is just trying to screw with me.

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#78 Posted by Alsimmons77 (1949 posts) - - Show Bio

The younger sibling tear the older sibling apart, Azula stomps either in both rounds, and Zuko stomps at least in the armed round.

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#79 Posted by Alsimmons77 (1949 posts) - - Show Bio

@mialthefencer:

Dude is ripped. I think he's probably pretty strong. And his durability is absolutely through the roof.

Dude has not proven anything, since when counts being ripped as strength feat? And the durability of all four is through the roof.

Yeah. If you noticed, I said that the kids win R2 due to swords.

It showed that Ozai is very likely not impressive without his bending.

Iroh probably would've talked him down, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove.

The point that nobody else of the combatants her would have sit down, just because of Zuko with swords.

Proof? Azula was never in that situation.

Have you watched that episode?

Aang's airbending >>>>> Zuko's sword. Toph and Sokka were also there, but admiditly most of the time occupied by the Dai Li

Azula also took on Zuko who was using fire generated blades and firebending with h2h, in their first match.

And trashed armed Suki in the comics, bitch slapped Ty Lee, brought Mai to the ground, and has proven that she is a far better h2h fighter than Zuko.

If you are saying just Zuko with swords could scarre Azula, would i have to doubt your integrity, or assume you barely remember much of the relevant episodes and comic issues.

Azula is clearly very skilled, but she lacks the strength to actually hurt someone on Ozai's level of durability.

Once Iroh grabbed her, she was unable to escape his grip, and that was before he got buff.

Azula doesn't lack that strength at all, she could hurt and deal with Zuko who has very comparable durability. If anything lacks Ozai the strength to hurt anyone here, and he also lacks the skill.

And that was long before Azula came back in the comics, and Azula didn't even try to escape Iroh's grip as he surprised her, so that example is anyways dishonest. And last but not least is Azula a combatant who uses striking attacks not a grappler, and she has after Zuko the best striking feats of the four.

Zuko has the stats to be sure, but Azula doesn't.

That is a straight faced lie, Azula took on Zuko in physical confrontations, and Zuko's stats wer never any dealbreaker. And Azula has anyways far better speed related stats.

Azula has never injured Zuko in H2H. Knocking someone over =/= hurting them. Zuko has outright caught a kick from Azula before with his bare hands, he's clearly much stronger physically (as is Iroh, and with some extremely simple assumptions Ozai).

That are two more straight faced lies, Azula has hurt Zuko, and Zuko has never caught a kick from Azula before. Ozai has not strength feats to speak of, and i get slowly the feeling you are dishonest on purpose.

No. I'm saying if we make some reasonable inferences about Ozai (that he's physically stronger than Zuko or especially Azula and that he's a skilled martial artist, which a high end firebender has to be, especially since he probably received similar training to Azula) then the two of them can win round 1 due to better stats, which are a huge advantage in a H2H fight.

Ok that was my last conversation with you in this thread, you are straight faced lying to me, making unproven assumptions, and even lowball Azula like your life would depend on it.

I'm here to have fruitful discussions, and maybe learn a thing or two. Not to get angry because i have the feeling the other person is just trying to screw with me.

Forget it, that user would either write a new story for Avatar, than to admit that Azula is the very clear MVP here.

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#80 Edited by Crimson-Feather (183 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebluedragon20 said:

@crimson-feather I'm not saying Iroh would solo or anything, or that he would blitz Azula, I was saying that based on the few h2h feets we have of Iroh, which is ironically more than his bending feats, he has the skill, knowledge, strength, and speed to the mvp of his team, this along with Ozais insane durability should be enough to take on the younger siblings.

As for R2, Zuko with his swords has taken on an entire fortress of soldiers with Aang, he could easily solo both of the elders.

Azula has much better h2h feats than Iroh, she has even better h2h feats than all other three together. Is the fastest, and most agile, and together with Ozai the most brutal of these four, and both zuko and Azula tanked explosions and have insane durability too. I don't see how Iroh and Ozai should stand any chance, in either round?

Azula most likely solos both rounds, and yes Zuko at least solos round 2.

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#81 Posted by thebuckaronatr (1986 posts) - - Show Bio

Azula with comic feats solos all three without weapons.

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#82 Edited by thebluedragon20 (31 posts) - - Show Bio

@crimson-feather we agree on the fact that she is certainly the most agile, however what combat speed feats does she have that are greater than Zuko's or Iroh's few? The only one I can really recall is fleeing from Toph and Aang under the city. as for h2h feats, she has outpaced the Kyoshi warriors, stomped Zuko, and of course her fights in the comics, she is great don't get me wrong but I just can't see her beating iroh in straight h2h

-Zuko is a tank, but Ozai has been blasted through multiple pillars of Rock, and was all around getting the crap beaten out of him by Aang.

As I said, Iroh has few feats, but the ones he does have paint him as a master h2h martial artist.

-Azula has no feats with daggers at all, how does she solo with one? She is not fast enough to blitz Iroh or Ozai, in fact, I would even go as far to say that Iroh could disarm her of her dagger in a similar manner to the mugger in the alley. The only one that is soloing R2 is Zuko

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#83 Posted by MorbusGrav (1652 posts) - - Show Bio
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#84 Edited by MorbusGrav (1652 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebluedragon20 said:

@crimson-feather we agree on the fact that she is certainly the most agile, however what combat speed feats does she have that are greater than Zuko's or Iroh's few? The only one I can really is fleeing from Toph and Aang under the city.

-Zuko is a ficken tank, but Ozai has been blasted through multiple pillars of Rock, and was all around getting the crap beaten out of him by Aang.

As I said, Iroh has few feats, but the ones he does have paint him as a master h2h martial artist.

-Azula has no feats with daggers at all, how does she solo with one? She is not fast enough to blitz Iroh or Ozai, in fact, I would even go as far to say that Iroh could disarm her of her dagger in a similar manner to the mugger in the alley. The only one that is soloing R2 is Zuko

No Caption Provided

Are you joking, and i mean joking badly?

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#85 Posted by thebluedragon20 (31 posts) - - Show Bio

@morbusgrav I can be swayed, give me feats Azula has with a dagger and I will cede that she solos R2.

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#86 Posted by MorbusGrav (1652 posts) - - Show Bio

@morbusgrav I can be swayed, give me feats Azula has with a dagger and I will cede that she solos R2.

That was not the only joke in your post, Azula has also the best combat speed, is far faster than Iroh and Ozai, and as if Azula would even need a dagger to win this fight.

But ok this here is a dagger feat and Azula was not even serious there in contrary to Zuko, even if it were fire daggers:

No Caption Provided

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#87 Posted by thebluedragon20 (31 posts) - - Show Bio

@morbusgrav Thank you, I cede, honestly, I just wanted to get into my first debate here on the vine, even if it was on the losing end,

-Good night.

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#88 Posted by katrurius17 (1417 posts) - - Show Bio
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#89 Posted by MorbusGrav (1652 posts) - - Show Bio

@morbusgrav Thank you, I cede, honestly, I just wanted to get into my first debate here on the vine, even if it was on the losing end,

-Good night.

Fair enough.

Good night, even if it isn't night for me :)

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#90 Edited by DJudgment (526 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem i have is my biggest negative of ATLA and it's only negative may i add.

When it came to Iroh, we was widely talked about in the Avatar verse as an extremely powerful bender and the only person who could maybe defeat the most powerful bender at that time (Arguably).

When it came to Ozai, he was stated to be the most powerful bender outside of the Avatar at the time of ATLA. However both of them lack in feats when you compare to the other characters.

So you have to look at it from two points of view, Hype & What was actually shown.

Ozai showed little to no h2h combat, it was only firebending.

Iroh having more feats than his brother while impressive, pale into comparison to the showings from the prince & princess.

On hype you would say the elders take both rounds.

But what we actually saw would be Azula & Zuko taking those rounds handley.

Especially R2.

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#91 Edited by Amendment50 (15844 posts) - - Show Bio

@djudgment: I don't see how that's a negative of the show itself. For most of the show Ozai was threatening because he was mysterious and mostly faceless. Iroh was supposed to be gentle, calm and reserved. If either of those guys was running around shooting fire at people all the time it would only have served to diminish their characters

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#92 Posted by Captain_Narlowe (228 posts) - - Show Bio

After reading the comics i have to say:

Azula should solo, she is probably the best h2h-fighter of all benders and almost the only one who can take on the high-end non benders without her own bending.

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#93 Posted by Captain_Narlowe (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@djudgment: Before reading the comics would I maybe have said Iroh and Ozai could take it based on hype, but after reading them i have to say no chance that they ever take Azula.

And i don't think it's negative that Ozai was kept in the backround, it helped the narrative.

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#94 Posted by DJudgment (526 posts) - - Show Bio

@djudgment: I don't see how that's a negative of the show itself. For most of the show Ozai was threatening because he was mysterious and mostly faceless. Iroh was supposed to be gentle, calm and reserved. If either of those guys was running around shooting fire at people all the time it would only have served to diminish their characters

For me it was, i think we should have seen a little more of them.

Ozai i can kind of understand to a certain extent ! But during the final book it would have been good to see him with feats outside of Sozin's Comet.

Iroh i believe should have had the prison escape shown, so we could have seen what an inshape and motivated Iroh was really like.

Iroh was also a constant character throughout the series, i get he was playing the old master role.

I just think they could have given us a little more of both.

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#95 Posted by DJudgment (526 posts) - - Show Bio

@djudgment: Before reading the comics would I maybe have said Iroh and Ozai could take it based on hype, but after reading them i have to say no chance that they ever take Azula.

And i don't think it's negative that Ozai was kept in the backround, it helped the narrative.

I agree Azula has gone levels ahead of either through the comics, shes what she was made out to be a true prodigy.

I just think due to the lack of showings it hinders them abit. I agree with what they did wit Ozai up until the first time we actually saw his face, but after that i would have liked him to really showcase how powerful he really was, before Sozins comet.

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#97 Posted by Captain_Narlowe (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@djudgment: I think they could have maybe shown more of Ozai in the comic flashbacks, his shown training was truly nothing of relevance.

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#98 Posted by DJudgment (526 posts) - - Show Bio
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#99 Posted by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: Ozai has no feats, Iroh has okayish feats, Zuko has pretty solid feats and Azula has pretty damn incredible feats. Nuff said.

R2: See R1, except that Zuko has more than just pretty solid feats now.