The Fire Nation Siblings Battle: Ozai/Iroh vs Azula/Zuko (No Bending)

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#1 Posted by Smoke-W (429 posts) - - Show Bio

Ozai & Iroh

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Azula & Zuko

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Rules

  • All characters are Book 3 but can also have current comic feats with Azula being sane.
  • No Bending.
  • Starting distance is 25 feet.

Round 1: H2H only. No weapons.

Round 2: Zuko has his swords. Azula has her dagger that she was going to use against Sokka.

Fight takes place in the abandoned village where Azula, Zuko, and Aang fought

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#3 Posted by SirDrProfessor (1699 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Zuko and Azula actually have feats sooooooooooo.....

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#4 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

Theoritically R1 could go either way, but the young ones have feats so I'm probably going with them.

Either Azula or Zuko solo R2 with little to no difficulty.

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#5 Posted by Freekymonkey (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron is good but not that good. Mismatch.

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#6 Posted by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@smoke-w:

Well Zuko and Azula actually have feats sooooooooooo.....

Theoritically R1 could go either way, but the young ones have feats so I'm probably going with them.

Either Azula or Zuko solo R2 with little to no difficulty.

I mean what else to say?

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#7 Posted by Jueix (2665 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: @freekymonkey: @itachus17: So two kids curbstomp a fight against two of the most powerful combatants in a world where martial arts prowess helps you control the elements?

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#8 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@jueix: Pretty much. The "kids" can easily be argued to be better benders, faster combatants, more skilled in h2h etc.

That's not how it works.

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#9 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@jueix said:

@anthp2000: @freekymonkey: @itachus17: So two kids curbstomp a fight against two of the most powerful combatants in a world where martial arts prowess helps you control the elements?

Considering what this 2 kids actually did, yeah easily.

Iroh would be even in (our)reality at a big disadvantage due to his age and height, and Ozai pretty relevant in round 1 but would have also obviously no chance in round 2.

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#10 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

Theoritically R1 could go either way, but the young ones have feats so I'm probably going with them.

Either Azula or Zuko solo R2 with little to no difficulty.

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#11 Posted by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 is either kids or stalemate (Ozai might be too durable for them to put down).

Round 2, either kid solos easily.

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#12 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

Iroh belly bumps.

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#13 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

Iroh's getting underestimated, saying he has no feats isn't giving him enough credit

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And this was before he got back in peak shape to escape from prison. Give the guy credit, he's crazy strong, and faster than you'd think.

And just because Ozai doesn't really have non-bending feats doesn't mean we should completely abandon logic. Zuko and Azula are good h2h fighters by virtue of their bending skills translating well to unarmed combat (since it's all martial arts). Ozai's at least as good if not better at bending than Zuko and Azula, and combined with a physical advantage over either of them, it would be illogical to say he couldn't beat either of them unarmed. I know feats are important, but so is in-universe logic about how these characters stack up against one another.

Kids win round 2 by virtue of blades, Zuko mvp (Azula doesn't even have any actual knife fighting feats, nothing to say she's soloing unless we just abandon logic)

When comparing characters from the same universe with limited feats but a strongly implied hierarchy, it's fine to use in-universe logic

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#14 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

And just because Ozai doesn't really have non-bending feats doesn't mean we should completely abandon logic. Zuko and Azula are good h2h fighters by virtue of their bending skills translating well to unarmed combat (since it's all martial arts).

Zuko and Azula have both actual h2h skills(Iroh a few), reactions(Ozai and Iroh a few), durability(Ozai too), striking power, speed(Iroh a few) and agility(Iroh a few) feats.

So your comparison is not rly complete, we can't just compare their bending skills(which are mostly based on hype and Ozai's comet feats for team 1) and say that's it.

Ozai's at least as good if not better at bending than Zuko and Azula, and combined with a physical advantage over either of them, it would be illogical to say he couldn't beat either of them unarmed.

Ozai has by feats no physical advantage at all, and not even by logic necessarily a speed, reactions or agility advantage. Even the comet bending skills he showed had not much martial arts influence, the best things he did were jet propulsion, lightning and using big fire attacks(without much martial arts movement).

I know feats are important, but so is in-universe logic about how these characters stack up against one another.

Well in-universe logic puts his bending skills, strength and durability above theirs, but even that counts just for book 3 Zuko and Azula(Kemurikage Azula might have already surpassed him).

Azula doesn't even have any actual knife fighting feats, nothing to say she's soloing unless we just abandon logic

Azula has actual fire blades skills(also reactions, speed and agility), this translates actually much more to knife fighting skills(it was just short, but we need to consider also Zuko's skills to evaluate hers) than just firebending in general to actual h2h fighting:

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Mind you she wasn't even rly serious, and did not try to kill Zuko.

When comparing characters from the same universe with limited feats but a strongly implied hierarchy, it's fine to use in-universe logic

The hierachy puts Ozai and Iroh not necessarily above current Zuko and Azula, at least not without bending(let alone with Zuko and Azula being armed).

I do understand your point, but in this case have we not very much that could give team 1 actually the edge.

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#16 Posted by lucy1111 (104 posts) - - Show Bio

ozai and iroh should win

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#17 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucy1111 said:

ozai and iroh should win

How exactly, especially in round 2?

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#18 Posted by lucy1111 (104 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: the people that are going to be useful in h2h combat are azula, zuko and iroh, ozai is more of a power house iroh has more experience and canout smart zuko and azula

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#19 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucy1111 said:

@itachus17: the people that are going to be useful in h2h combat are azula, zuko and iroh, ozai is more of a power house iroh has more experience and canout smart zuko and azula

That doesn't really make sense.

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#20 Posted by lucy1111 (104 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucy1111 said:

@anthp2000: how so?

Azula is too fast and skilled for any of them, Zuko is strong enough and has good enough martial feats to beat them. How can Iroh outsmart them in a h2h fight? What has he done to suggest he is even close to Azula's tactical ability?

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#22 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucy1111 said:

@itachus17: the people that are going to be useful in h2h combat are azula, zuko and iroh, ozai is more of a power house iroh has more experience and canout smart zuko and azula

Iroh's h2h feats pale in comparison to Zuko's and especially Azula's, Ozai is a powerhouse based on what exactly? Zhao had also more experience than Zuko, which feats has Iroh to suggest he could outsmart Zuko and Azula?

How will all this help in round 2 where Zuko and Azula are armed, while Iroh and Ozai are unarmed?

Have you even read the comics?

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#23 Posted by lucy1111 (104 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: well he has been a general for like all his life so tactics is what he does

zuko is predictable and azula fast only in travel speed but in h2h she is equal to iroh

i think iroh takes it

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#24 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucy1111 said:

@anthp2000: well he has been a general for like all his life so tactics is what he does

zuko is predictable and azula fast only in travel speed but in h2h she is equal to iroh

i think iroh takes it

And Azula took over the Earth Kingdom in less than a week with h2 non-bending friends. She defended the Fire Nation during the eclipse with 2 Dai Li agents etc.

Azula was too fast for Suki, Ty Lee and Mai in h2h... Iroh has no martial arts feats to suggest he is on her level.

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#25 Posted by lucy1111 (104 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: wait there is a comic? i only watch the anime

i am just saying experince carries the win and iroh has it

ozai is the power house in bending that is

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#26 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucy1111 said:

@itachus17: wait there is a comic? i only watch the anime

i am just saying experince carries the win and iroh has it

ozai is the power house in bending that is

The comic feats are very important for this:

All characters are Book 3 but can also have current comic feats with Azula being sane.

In the spoiler are some h2h feats for Azula(she's the masked person in pic 2 and 3, her opponents are Suki and Ty Lee in the last one):

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Here one feat from Zuko against Azula:

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You should know the most of Zuko's sword skills, but here are some skills for Azula in round 2:

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Important to note: She was not even rly serious, and did not try to kill Zuko.

And again Zhao's experience carried nothing against Zuko, also is this a fight without bending(so how should that help Ozai?)

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#27 Posted by lucy1111 (104 posts) - - Show Bio

@itachus17: ok i beleive you since i have not read the comics

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#28 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucy1111 said:

@itachus17: ok i beleive you since i have not read the comics

Well you shouldn't just believe me XD, but look at the feats(there are of course much more in the comics, but these are some of the best for h2h) and think about it.

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#29 Posted by Deathstroke_50 (423 posts) - - Show Bio
@lucy1111 said:

iroh has more experience and canout smart azula

Yet was outsmarted by her and almost cost him his life.

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#30 Posted by noobsnowman (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

No bending? Team 2. Azula is too fast and resourceful for Iroh's strength to be of any significant issue.

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#31 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

Iroh has technique......if he can react to natural lightning im at least assuming he can keep pace with either of the siblings. In-fact I'd argue Iroh solidly over Zuko in this scenario as well. Especially if iroh is post prison.

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#32 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Team two wins both rounds.

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#34 Edited by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_lantern said:

Iroh has technique......if he can react to natural lightning im at least assuming he can keep pace with either of the siblings.In-fact I'd argue Iroh solidly over Zuko in this scenario as well. Especially if iroh is post prison.

If he could just keep pace with Zuko, would he be still too slow for Azula. So the following part would be urgently necessary.

And the natural lightning feat is extremely questionable, let alone that his technique not even nearly enough is by actual feats.

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#35 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

Iroh didn't react to natural lightning. He sensed it before it came and positioned himself accordingly. Master benders can sense their elements nearby, incoming.

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#36 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

Come on people, I'm not saying this example was a fair fight, but if Azula was way too fast for Iroh, then this never would've happened

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Sure his initial grabbing of her was a blindside, but if she was too fast for him, she would've been able to react before he kicked her off the boat (since he took a bit of time to redirect her lighting), but she didn't.

Sure, by the time of the comics, Azula's probably faster. But people are seriously overrating her here. Being faster and more agile doesn't automatically grant you a win by any means. Iroh's faster than people are giving him credit for, and as for Ozai, Azula's not strong enough to put him down. This is a guy who was tanking Avatar State attacks, while Azula could maybe trip him up, she doesn't have showings or implied ability to be able to seriously hurt him with her bare hands. He's a full grown man while she's a teenage girl, and she doesn't have Ty Lee's ability to bypass durability by chi blocking

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#37 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: This is a cheap shot against a slower version of Azula. Iroh is not faster than Ty Lee, Suki or Mai, and Azula was too fast for all of them.

How do you think she should've reacted? She didn't have he strength to overpower him and she had to make sure the electricity was out of both their bodies before moving.

No one said Azula would put Ozai down barehanded (though it's possible that a kick to the throat or something could do it).

As for Azula's knife fighting skills, look at how she holds the knife. It's like she's barehanded, it's not a sword or something to need special training or skill. She has much better h2h showings than anyone here and that's all she needs.

Also, firebending, let alone bending in general, is hardly the only reason Azula and Zuko are skilled h2h fighters. I'm not giving Ozai the benefit of the doubt because he's a skilled firebender. Zuko didn't even know the basics in Book 1 and was still very formidable in martial arts.

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#38 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: This is a cheap shot against a slower version of Azula. Iroh is not faster than Ty Lee, Suki or Mai, and Azula was too fast for all of them.

How do you think she should've reacted? She didn't have he strength to overpower him and she had to make sure the electricity was out of both their bodies before moving.

No one said Azula would put Ozai down barehanded (though it's possible that a kick to the throat or something could do it).

As for Azula's knife fighting skills, look at how she holds the knife. It's like she's barehanded, it's not a sword or something to need special training or skill. She has much better h2h showings than anyone here and that's all she needs.

Also, firebending, let alone bending in general, is hardly the only reason Azula and Zuko are skilled h2h fighters. I'm not giving Ozai the benefit of the doubt because he's a skilled firebender. Zuko didn't even know the basics in Book 1 and was still very formidable in martial arts.

What proof is there that he's so much slower than them? And again, if Azula is so much faster than him, then why didn't she react at all? If she was way out of his league, then she should've been able to react in the time it took Iroh to redirect the lighting.

Prove she had to wait to make sure the electricity was out. That's never been mentioned as a thing, and clearly Iroh could move since he had to move to redirect the lighting.

People are saying Azula and Zuko stomp round 1, with no weapons. Azula's agile, but she's not strong enough to reliably take down Iroh or Ozai.

Zuko's non-bending ability can be partially explained by his sword training with Piandao, but Azula hasn't had any training other than firebending that we know of. Unless you give me solid evidence of her having hand to hand training that has nothing to do with firebending, then yes, her skill can be attributed to firebending technique. It's the same reason someone like Korra is a great h2h fighter despite only having training in bending. And yes, Zuko knew the basics in Book 1, what are you talking about? Sure, compared to high end masters he wasn't all that great, but he was still way better than your average firebender

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#39 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: I didn't say he's slower than them. I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is as fast, but Azula was too fast for them too.

Again, Azula clearly got much faster in S&S. Heck, she looked faster in Book 3 as well dodging all of Aang's attacks at the eclipse.

I'd say that's common sense. It's stated before as a fact that one wrong move and lightning generation can kill the user by the electricity passing through the heart. Iroh himself said so IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong. Iroh moving to redirect he electricity is clearly a different story than him getting kicked by Azula or something. Within the technique, he maintains his own balance to get it out of his body. If Azula kicked him there, she would disturb the situation and roast Iroh (who was making conduct with her, and that's why it would be suicide) alive. In fact, I think that's partly another reason why Iroh didn't simply redirect the bolt, and instead grabbed her as well (apart from his intention to incap her).

I'm not seeing anyone saying Azula and Zuko stomp R1. We just favor them by virtue of feats. Besides, Azula has Zuko as a teammate and there are ways for someone to take down a physically superior opponent in h2h if you're faster and more skilled. Who says Azula's not ruthless enough to kick him on the throat, claw his eye or just go for the balls?

Simply looking at what she was doing against Zuko on their ship redirecting all his fists and even using forms we've never seen in firebending at all, is enough to see that she had extra training imo. In episode 1, Zuko was still practicing basics with Iroh, litteraly. And I can definitely imagine Korra having h2h training. Was Zhao a good h2h fighters? Can you imagine Jeong Jeong being a good h2h fighter? Roku even at his youngest?

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#40 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

Her acrobatics improved, sure, but enough to make her leagues faster than Iroh? Nah

Maybe, but even then, she just stood there and got kicked off, if Iroh was too slow to keep up with her, she would've logically done something

Sure she could fight dirty, but there's way more ways for a physically superior opponent to take down an inferior one, and Azula doesn't even have showings of doing anything beyond outmaneuvering Zuko (didn't even hurt him), to indicate she could effectively use these tactics without being countered

So no proof that she had any special training that Iroh and Ozai wouldn't have also had. They were raised and trained in the same manner after all

Episode 1 Zuko was saying he wanted to move on to the advanced stuff, cause he was beating the basic soldiers no problem

Iirc Zhao has at least one showing of casually taking out the Northern water tribe guy that infiltrated the boat. Why couldn't Jeong Jeong and Roku be good h2h fighters? Do you have evidence that they're not? I wouldn't argue for them in a h2h fight simply because there's nothing to go on (at least Iroh and Ozai have some stuff), but doesn't mean I can't imagine them being capable

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#41 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: I wouldn't say she is leagues above Iroh but I'm still being generous saying he is as fast as the ones she faught on that comic.

Yeah, because she wasn't too fast then, she is now.

Not if the physically superior opponent is not as skilled or as fast.

There's no "proof" but based on what we've seen, it's easy to indicate she has. If we're going strictly by proof, I need proof that Ozai is not garbage in h2h. But I don't have that and I'm assuming he isn't.

He took down 1 guard by catching him off guard (heh). You can see that in training they were actually keeping up with him. That said, Zuko needed Iroh to teach him the advanced set because he wasn't that good. If he already know about it, why would he need training?

Fair enough.

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#42 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: I wouldn't say she is leagues above Iroh but I'm still being generous saying he is as fast as the ones she faught on that comic.

Yeah, because she wasn't too fast then, she is now.

Not if the physically superior opponent is not as skilled or as fast.

There's no "proof" but based on what we've seen, it's easy to indicate she has. If we're going strictly by proof, I need proof that Ozai is not garbage in h2h. But I don't have that and I'm assuming he isn't.

He took down 1 guard by catching him off guard (heh). You can see that in training they were actually keeping up with him. That said, Zuko needed Iroh to teach him the advanced set because he wasn't that good. If he already know about it, why would he need training?

Fair enough.

Who says she got significantly faster? What evidence is there for that?

It's equally easy to conclude that any training Azula had, Ozai also would've had, with the exception of acrobatics, since Ozai didn't grow up with Ty Lee. That's been my point, idk if I've been saying it clearly. Where would Azula have gotten h2h training that Ozai wouldn't have also had (probably not the same teacher, but the same overall concept)?

I never said Zuko was a master, but are you actually trying to say that book 1 Zuko wasn't really better than your average soldier? Come on dude, we both know he's better than that. In the training exercise he was just practicing certain forms, and even then it was 2v1 iirc. Book 1 Zuko was still capable of giving Aang way more of a challenge than the average soldier

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#43 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: If she was just as fast back then, Katara wouldn't stand a chance up close against her to name an instance.

It doesn't have to be formal training per say. Or with a master. Either way, I don't find it easy to assume that he had the same training as her. Ozai didn't have the same firebending masters/mentors anyway, unless we assume Lo and Li trained him as well which isn't backed up by many things really.

I didn't say he wasn't better than some soldiers. All I said is what he himself stated, which easily makes me conclude he had extra h2h training (and as good as swordsmanship with Piandao is, I'm not sure how well it helps into h2h). Also, part of him giving more of a challenge to Aang than fodder is clearly his physicals.

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#44 Edited by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: If she was just as fast back then, Katara wouldn't stand a chance up close against her to name an instance.

It doesn't have to be formal training per say. Or with a master. Either way, I don't find it easy to assume that he had the same training as her. Ozai didn't have the same firebending masters/mentors anyway, unless we assume Lo and Li trained him as well which isn't backed up by many things really.

I didn't say he wasn't better than some soldiers. All I said is what he himself stated, which easily makes me conclude he had extra h2h training (and as good as swordsmanship with Piandao is, I'm not sure how well it helps into h2h). Also, part of him giving more of a challenge to Aang than fodder is clearly his physicals.

Katara was able to evade Ty Lee in close quarters, it's not like she's slow

For her to have notably better h2h than Ozai or Iroh, she'd have to have some particularly different training or some reason to have acquired significantly better skills. Logically, her training wouldn't be all that different from Ozai and Iroh's

Sure his physicals help, no question about that, but clearly his bending is better too. Saying he didn't even know basic firebending is not giving him nearly enough credit. Iroh might have had him practicing basics, that's not the same as Iroh still needing to teach him the basics

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#45 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: So is Katara faster than Ty Lee or Suki or Mai? I don't think so at all. And there's no reason why she would fare any better than them in CQ, as a matter of fact Katara is clearly more suited at range.

Again, who says she didn't have extra h2h training? I haven't seen any bending form even remotely similar to what she was doing against Zuko in their first duel.

This is really not the point. The point is that Zuko needed Iroh to teach him the advanced set (litteraly what he said) and he was good at h2h already. Throwing basic fireballs is not enough martial skill to put you on Suki's level, who was training as a KW since she was 8.

Thing is, if you are to make a case for Iroh and esspecially Ozai winning here, that's WAY too much maybes whereas with Zuko and Azula, it's all plain feats. I think it's very generous that we say Team 1 stands a chance in R1 just in theory but saying we underestimate them, esspecially in R2 is stretching at best. They've done absolutely nothing to suggest they can content with Azula or Zuko, let alone armed.

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#46 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

We have showings of her being able to keep up with both Mai and Ty Lee fine in a fight...not saying she'd do well h2h, as her water bending training isn't conducive to h2h, but you're acting like she's way slower, based on what? When Ty Lee took her down in the Earth palace?

I don't think I'm making my point well. Firebenders often fight at close quarters, so logically their training would include more close quarters techniques than other benders. Even if those techniques aren't directly used for fire bending, they can be used in close quarter fire bending fights, like how Azula defensed against Zuko's fire bending

...and in the first few episodes we see Zuko doing more than just throwing fire. You keep acting like he couldn't do anything beyond the basic stuff any soldier could do, based apparently on a single, mis-interpreted statement

Iroh's got feats, like his prison break feat, to be in Zuko and Azula's league, and abandoning the logic of how characters compare in-universe isn't right. By the logic you're trying to use, Zuko would arguably beat Piandao, does that seem right?

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#47 Edited by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: How does keeping up with them make her faster? If she was able to, in CQ, pressure the same Azula that dodged Mai's attack and kicked her before she could react simultaneously or the same Azula who could dance around Ty Lee and Suki then she must either be a lot faster than them or a lot more skilled in CQ, and clearly, none of that is remotely true which is evidence that Azula got much faster.

I always thought they simply incorporated their martial forms into h2h. Waterbender, earthbenders and airbenders hardly use as many fighting forms but if you look at firebending forms, most of their movements actually do translate into h2h. But really, even if we go by what you're saying, there's still no evidence that Ozai has the same or even similar training to Azula.

All I remember in the first episodes is him throwing fire... Apart from heatbending, he didn't do anything impressive skill-wise.

The prison break feat does not stand up to Azula's feats from S&S. She's on another level than anyone here by feats, and Zuko should be around his level. Ozai is simply featless. I'm not abandoning this logic here. This isn't a bending battle, this is a h2h fight. Nothing proves Iroh or Ozai are just as good in CQ just because they are on that level bending-wise. Furthermore, the in-verse logic in Avatar is mostly hype, and that's not nearly as trustworthy as feats though that's another story. And Piandao would beat Zuko because he was stated to be he best swordsman in history, he trained him and taught him everything he knows and he has the feats to at least support the statement. I didn't see anyone saying Iroh or Ozai are he best h2h combatants in history or something. Iroh barely has showings to support such a claim and Ozai has zero.

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#48 Posted by redhoodsavagery (218 posts) - - Show Bio

azula is overrated

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#49 Posted by Itachus17 (3740 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@redhoodsavagery said:

azula is overrated

Based on?

Azula might be overrated, but her royal elders are even more overrated.