The Fear Lords vs The Upside Down Man

VS

Rules:

The Otherkind have invaded the Marvel Universe, infecting the general populous with their stories. Sensing that if things continue, they would lose their foothold of fear on the 616 Universe, they have decided to invade the Otherplace and bring down the UDM's reign of terror, personally.

• The Fear Lords have a day of prep
• Fight takes place in the Otherplace
• Basic knowledge
• Victory by death, ko, or sealing

Mood Setter:

@princesscadenza@professorrespect@wastelandman@jrupert1

@princesscadenza: You should CaV Nightmare vs Upside Down Man with someone. lol

@princesscadenza: lol maybe @redshift_bacon or @donotdenyyourfate will do it.

@princesscadenza: Tethered to mobile currently as Im in the Navy and wont be getting my own place for a while. I’d love to read and vote in it though if you find someone haha

So does the Upside-Down man have any good feats or is he just scaled off of Hecate, who herself seemed unimpressive combat wise?

Mostly scaled off Hecate, but tbf, most mystical beings tend to come down to scaling and conceptual potency, rather than big explosions.

His ability to casually warp reality and take on an amped Zatanna, Fate, and WW (With the full power of Hecate) at the same time, is still pretty damn impressive imo.

Also one of his spawn killed the First of the Fallen.

@zetsu-san: I would consider this more impressive if I had a better idea of how powerful amped Zatanna, Fate, and WW are. Hecate sort of had a similar issue when I was reading her appearances, her power was enough to scare off the likes of Rama Kushna, but Rama is nigh featless from what I've seen, so is First of the Fallen, even in Post-Crisis I think his best feat was the spell he cast on Constantine that the Presence had to cure, but aside from that nothing too impressive.

@ultraphoenix: Well, WW with half of Hecate’s power was said to be dealing with enough magic to create a universe.

Mordru put enough chaos magic into a ruby to “split the universe in half”. Said Ruby was then used to turn the JLD into Lords of Chaos and they then defeated the Lords of Order.

Fate also destroyed a small dimension. So I’d put Fate into the Herald+ range.

When he fought Upside Down Man, he was probably higher, since he along with the rest of the JLD were basically contesting UDM’s control over the dimension and drawing power from it.

@ultraphoenix: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/doctor-fate-vs-paradox-strange-2065926/

I had a debate with someone in the above, who has a really high opinion of Rebirth Fate’s level. May as well take a look at his arguments and see if that convinces you of anything.

@princesscadenza: @zetsu-san: How's this even a fight? Upside Down Man has been retconned as the source of the great evil beast as shown in Saga of the Swamp Thing which was a small part of his darkness.

He is abstract tier, not fear lords level.

What issue is that?

Also, UDM being the source of GEB kind of makes GEB less impressive, since he was originally supposed to be the other half of the Presence, who intern is supposed to be the the creator of everything.

In any case, he can clearly be challenged for dominance in his own dimension. If Zatanna, Fate, and Swamp Thing, can effect UDM, then I don't see why Fear Lords can't. Not saying they'll win, but they can certainly fight him IMO.

Justice League Dark 3.

And no, Spectre himself is above pretty much every fear lord here. It doesn't makes GEB any less impressive because it's already established as pretty much an abstract being.

The Presence himself is not from the source wall and he was mentioned to be afraid of The otherkind that caused them to close the gates of Heaven and Hell. i don't see how that makes GEB less impressive.

Also the idea of one creator has been retconned in rebirth. The presence is just but one of them.

Also I noticed it said that GEB nearly burnt heaven down. That's pretty impressive considering heaven is a separate infinite multiverse.

@donotdenyyourfate: You don’t see how going from “The Evil Half of God” to “a small sliver of darkness” of some other being, would make it less impressive?

Heaven and Hell closed their gates, but it was never state that the Presence had anything to do with that. Even if he was, that just means the current power structure of DC has changed too much to use what we used to know about these characters as evidence of anything.

That said, the Presence presumably created Eclipso who can counter Hecate. This should put him solidly above the Otherkind, whether he’s the true creator or not.

@zetsu-san Given that the other kind are omnipotent and come from beyond the source wall i fail to see your logic how they are not impressive.

The first of the fallen was killed, angels were present to discuss the otherkind , Neron took over hell...gee tell me oh wise one who then besides the presence would be reffered to as having closed the gates of heaven.

Come on now , even Etrigan directly mentions the Presence when swamp thing attacks him for bringing the information that heaven wasn't willing to intervene.

The presence created Eclipso to try and counter Hecate , which he failed as nothing proves it even worked. Heck even Khalid Fate suspended Eclipso's power in time quite easily i fail to see how that is Hecate level?

Also did you miss the whole justice league run and metal crisis? There's multiple creators now besides the presence and source wall beings are those who govern them.

The upside down man's realm (the other place) exists within the source

@zetsu-san said:

I personally think the Mordru amped Zattana was more powerful than the one in UDM's dimension, she and others seemed to casually stomping the LOD who were previously destroying dimensions, and ripping apart the comic book page (basically destroying reality).

Was it ever stated that Fate was stronger in the UDM dimension? I think only Zatanna was stronger since speaking backwards had more weight there, and his power was waning because they were trying to connect it with Hecate's, even Swamp Thing managed to restrain him for a while with the green, whereas he was about to lose to the LOD which Mordru's magic stopped. Hell it was even implied that Mordru could've stopped Hecate but he simply didn't want to, even though his magic logically stems from Hecate.

Wasn't amped swamp thing once, almost scared shitless of upside down man?

The Presence is still the top dog, Lucifer was actually retconned to have been the GEB (his avatar was) and Hecate/Otherkind were created during the early stages of the multiverse, while it was still forming. The Otherkind however are related to the Great Darkness, which is where the Otherkind get their power from, but this doesn't mean that UDM is all of a sudden on the level of Presence, the Great Darkness is but the Otherkind are not. As for the gates being closed, there are people besides the Presence who have the ability to close the gates, and we know that Eclipso who's below the Presence can match Hecate.

@ultraphoenix: literally prove Eclipsoo is the same level as Hecate

It was mentioned that Eclipso was created to try and mitigate Hecate but we literally see none of that

All we see is Khalid Nassour owning Eclipso when Diana possesses both Hecate's and Eclipso's power

Also i no better than to argue with you, your reputation precedes you

.

@ultraphoenix: Lucifer was retconned to be the GEB pre new 52 not during rebirth

Your argument is moot.

Jo

Did you miss the part when Diana with Hecate's power mentions that the UD man was now susceptible to Zatanna's attack only after Nabu/ Kent Nelson weakened him, this was not possible before. This was literally the plan all along.

Mordru was not worried because of his immortality, it ensures his survival.

@ultraphoenix: Are GEB and the Great Darkness not the same thing anymore?

The Otherkind however are related to the Great Darkness, which is where the Otherkind get their power from,

The scan seems to suggest the Great Darkness came from the Otherkind rather than vice versa. Unless the Great Darkness is a piece of UDM’s dimension instead of a sliver of himself, like the Otherkind.

we know that Eclipso who's below the Presence can match Hecate.

TBF, I think Eclipso’s ability to beat Hecate has more to do with symbolism and being designed as a sort of Kryptonite to her, than it does him being able to match her in any way.

@ultraphoenix: I agree, Lord of Chaos Zatanna was definitely more powerful. Though the ripping of the page, was more symbolic of them tearing away the rules of magic, than actually ripping reality, imo. There weren’t any holes in space, like when the Lords of Order were destroying Myrra, and they were fighting the real world iirc.

Was it ever stated that Fate was stronger in the UDM dimension? I think only Zatanna was stronger since speaking backwards had more weight there, and his power was waning because they were trying to connect it with Hecate's

Zatanna had the most influence over the dimension, due to the symbolism around his magic. However, the others were also “infecting“ his dimension, utilizing the power of belief.

The way I interpreted it, is that UDM is powerful, because he’s the lord of the dimension. But he’s only the lord of the dimension, because he was the sole being inside of it, so his belief was able to infect and reshape it, uncontested.

The act of introducing other people into it, allows them to infect and influence it with their own belief. In other words, connecting it with Hecate’s power.

@donotdenyyourfate

Literally prove Eclipse is the same level as Hecate

It was mentioned that Eclipso was created to try and mitigate Hecate but we literally see none of that

All we see is Khalid Nassour owning Eclipso when Diana possesses both Hecate's and Eclipso's power.

Eclispso was never truly freed, he was bound to Diana and then Khalid (who had the assistance of Nabu) came in and bound her mind long enough for her to fix the situation, it's mentioned that Eclipso has to be contained in someone, if he escapes the diamond then they're all in trouble.

Lucifer was retconned to be pre new 52 not during rebirth

Your argument is moot.

What are you even saying? Lucifer was retconned to be pre new 52? What does this mean? Lucifer was retconned to be the GEB and this was during his series in Rebirth!

@zetsu-san:

Are GEB and the Great Darkness not the same thing anymore?

They should be.

The scan seems to suggest the Great Darkness came from the Otherkind rather than vice versa. Unless the Great Darkness is a piece of UDM’s dimension instead of a sliver of himself, like the Otherkind.

They're both related to each other, Tynion confirmed it on Twitter, and I think while the UDM is one of the Otherkind, Lucifer himself is the Great Darkness altogether, he is the GEB, so he should be > UDM or Hecate.

TBF, I think Eclipso’s ability to beat Hecate has more to do with symbolism and being designed as a sort of Kryptonite to her, than it does him being able to match her in any way.

Maybe he doesn't match her in raw power but Eclipso is below the Presence so it should debunk the notion of Hecate or the Otherkind being Presence level.

I agree, Lord of Chaos Zatanna was definitely more powerful. Though the ripping of the page, was more symbolic of them tearing away the rules of magic, than actually ripping reality, imo. There weren’t any holes in space, like when the Lords of Order were destroying Myrra, and they were fighting the real world iirc.

Yeah it could be seen that way, I just viewed it as magic tearing down reality as a consequence of disrupting magic, which is usually depicted in a unique way.

Zatanna had the most influence over the dimension, due to the symbolism around his magic. However, the others were also “infecting“ his dimension, utilizing the power of belief.

Yeah they were weakening him, but even prior to their combined attack Swamp Thing managed to restrain UDM when he brought the Green over, I don't think anyone except Diana and Zattana were actually amped in the dimension, instead they were weakening UDM.

The way I interpreted it, is that UDM is powerful, because he’s the lord of the dimension. But he’s only the lord of the dimension, because he was the sole being inside of it, so his belief was able to infect and reshape it, uncontested.

The act of introducing other people into it, allows them to infect and influence it with their own belief. In other words, connecting it with Hecate’s power.

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that, I just don't think Fate's power was any higher in the dimension, rather his power had more effect there.

@donotdenyyourfate:

Did you miss the part when Diana with Hecate's power mentions that the UD man was now susceptible to Zatanna's attack only after Nabu/ Kent Nelson weakened him, this was not possible before. This was literally the plan all along.

What does this have to do with what I said? Nabu wasn't really all that more powerful in the UDM's dimension than he was outside of it, his magic simply had a greater effect there because of the nature of the dimension and the power of belief and its connection to magic.

Mordru was not worried because of his immortality, it ensures his survival.

Ok? Which implies that Mordru could've faced off against Hecate but just didn't want to, it doesn't change what I said.

@princesscadenza said:

I'd imagine after Death Metal it's going to get even more confusing.

@ultraphoenix

Ok? Which implies that Mordru could've faced off against Hecate but just didn't want to, it doesn't change what I said.

here say, Mordru never mentioned he could have stopped Hecate he merely mentions he was not interested to intervene . These =/ re not the same things.

What does this have to do with what I said? Nabu wasn't really all that more powerful in the UDM's dimension than he was outside of it, his magic simply had a greater effect there because of the nature of the dimension and the power of belief and its connection to magic.

My bad , my response before this was to a different post.

@zetsu-san

: The scan seems to suggest the Great Darkness came from the Otherkind rather than vice versa. Unless the Great Darkness is a piece of UDM’s dimension instead of a sliver of himself, like the Other kind.

the other kind are from a dimension called the other place which the Great darkness also originates from, he is a part of them

@donotdenyyourfate:It is implied that Mordru could've intervened and stopped her, his claim was that he would've survived the events, which could go either two ways, either Mordru defeats Hecate and survives, or Hecate fails to destroy Mordru, either way he would've survived. Mordru was amused by the events and didn't want to intervene, if he did chances are that he would have won.

Eclispso was never truly freed, he was bound to Diana and then Khalid (who had the assistance of Nabu) came in and bound her mind long enough for her to fix the situation, it's mentioned that Eclipso has to be contained in someone, if he escapes the diamond then they're all in trouble.

they are not. Eclipso in issue 16 talks of Nabu, if Kent had the helm Nabu would know how to contain Eclipso, which ends up happening when Khalid takes the helm. Eclipso gets subdued without a hustle.

What are you even saying? Lucifer was retconned to be pre new 52? What does this mean? Lucifer was retconned to be the GEB and this was during his series in Rebirth!

was it not retconned pre rebirth as part of Lucifer? i could have sworn i read something along the lines of that guess i was mistaken

This is not implied by the events in JLD but simply by Mordru's existence in itself. Out of all the Lords he is truly immortal , he has no end and this is shown not in JLD but in other comics. The LOO had this same notion but during the age of chaos (fate series 1987) they got retconned as beings that could die but would simply be reborn during recreation.

He had the power as did Nabu , but nothing proves they could put Hecate down in her powered state.

@donotdenyyourfate:

they are not. Eclipso in issue 16 talks of Nabu, if Kent had the helm Nabu would know how to contain Eclipso, which ends up happening when Khalid takes the helm. Eclipso gets subdued without a hustle.

Yeah Khalid had Nabu's help which is why he was able to contain Eclipso, and from what I've read of him Eclipso's power varies greatly depending on his host and he's rarely ever truly "free" as in not bound to a host. I think Zetsu-San explained it best and said that Eclipso is more like Kryptonite to Hecate, which is why he can beat her.

was it not retconned pre rebirth as part of Lucifer? i could have sworn i read something along the lines of that guess i was mistaken

The series was during Rebirth so the retcon should still be valid.

@ultraphoenix:

Maybe he doesn't match her in raw power but Eclipso is below the Presence so it should debunk the notion of Hecate or the Otherkind being Presence level.

How does this debunk it? Eclipso never matched Hecate's raw power so how does it prove that if he was meant to counter her that she and the other kind are outright below the presence? Adding to the fact that the other kind had better feats than Hecate and were mentioned to be omnipotent.

Yeah they were weakening him, but even prior to their combined attack Swamp Thing managed to restrain UDM when he brought the Green over, I don't think anyone except Diana and Zattana were actually amped in the dimension, instead they were weakening UDM.

yeah i think this instance was trying to build on Swampy's Omnipresence in his empowered state. The green can exist anywhere that is, which is what he does to get a foot hold in the other place.

@princesscadenza said:

All I gather from this thread is, DC cosmology is a mess.

I'd imagine after Death Metal it's going to get even more confusing.

This we can all agree.

Yeah Khalid had Nabu's help which is why he was able to contain Eclipso, and from what I've read of him Eclipso's power varies greatly depending on his host and he's rarely ever truly "free" as in not bound to a host. I think Zetsu-San explained it best and said that Eclipso is more like Kryptonite to Hecate, which is why he can beat her.

I'm still calling it hear say because Eclipso has never shown feats to put them Hecate's level. If we were to put it in relative terms that's like saying if a second world country created an Anti USA weapon that it would automatically put that weapon in USA's level when it has no showings of that, do you get what I'm trying to say?

The series was during Rebirth so the retcon should still be valid

Noted. But they still do counter balance each other these statements. Kinda like the current superman run has introduced a new True Lord of Chaos when JLD had already took a stance that Mordru was the only LOC. Dc is actively retconning things as they move especially in the magical world

@donotdenyyourfate:

I'm still calling it hear say because Eclipso has never shown feats to put them Hecate's level. If we were to put it in relative terms that's like saying if a second world country created an Anti USA weapon that it would automatically put that weapon in USA's level when it has no showings of that, do you get what I'm trying to say?

A lot of these characters have little to no showings, but we never actually saw Eclipso battle it out with Hecate because he was bound before it could happen, which has happened to Eclipso, but based on statements we know that he has the ability to defeat Hecate. A better analogy would be a nuke meant to take out the USA that was never launched.

Noted. But they still do counter balance each other these statements. Kinda like the current superman run has introduced a new True Lord of Chaos when JLD had already took a stance that Mordru was the only LOC. Dc is actively retconning things as they move especially in the magical world

Not really, I mean what we know is that Lucifer was the GEB, and that the Great Darkness and Otherkind are related, not the same thing. The GEB also has superior feats to the Otherkind, whereas whether or not Mordru is the only LOC doesn't really matter, it doesn't really take away from his power.

@princesscadenza: No. It was never stated that the Presence was afraid of the Otherkind.

Heaven and Hell are mentioned to be. Angels and demons are mentioned to be. the Presence is then mentioned when Swamp thing refuses to take the reason why Heaven didn't intervene during the otherkind's rampage.

@donotdenyyourfate: Yeah, I'm familiar. The Presence is mentioned in a rhyme Etrigan says, but he's never characterized as afraid. He also let Heaven burn down during the siege by the Lilim in Lucifer (vol. 1) so it isn't uncharacteristic of him to not intervene.

A lot of these characters have little to no showings, but we never actually saw Eclipso battle it out with Hecate because he was bound before it could happen, which has happened to Eclipso, but based on statements we know that he has the ability to defeat Hecate. A better analogy would be a nuke meant to take out the USA that was never launched.

Nah, i think we can agree to disagree. All that points to eclipso being Hecate's equal is one statement that has no feats to back it up. If Eclipso had at least one feat throughout his history that concurred with this i would have agreed but there is simply none. From wotg showings to JLD, Hecate is just superior.

Not really, I mean what we know is that Lucifer was the GEB, and that the Great Darkness and Otherkind are related, not the same thing. The GEB also has superior feats to the Otherkind, whereas whether or not Mordru is the only LOC doesn't really matter, it doesn't really take away from his power.

This is what I don't get. How does GEB have superior feats to the other kind. I'm pretty sure you've read up to the newest issues of JLD. The other kind is Omnipotent and from the source. Justice League and the death Metal run solidify that there are multiple creators, which Presence is not the one who created the other kind. Idk why you and Zetsu keep measuring him up to the presence when Presence/ Perpetua et al are confirmed to be of this side of wall, while beings beyond the source wall are mentioned to be more powerful than them.