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#1 Edited by Supermanthor (19872 posts) - - Show Bio
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vs

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simple edit most powerful versions of both teams

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#3 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, I would get hate for this, but the Beyonders are a non-factor here. They beated the abstracts, because they were kryptonite to the abstracts. They really showed that they are not impressive, when they got killed by an explosion of 100k universes/universal+ explosion. Protege, as it stands now, is not near to the endless. Back then, when she copied the power of LT, the marvel multiverse was only a infinite-D multiverse and the Living Tribunal/Protege was bound by it, while the endless exists in infinite multiverses outside of the main DC multiverse, which is already infinite-D. God doom loses horribly too. The first Firmamament was equal to Eternity, so he loses horribly too. Scathan the approver has not shown feats above the infinite-D, he gets stomped too. HOTU Thanos? Hm, now it could be interesting. Maybe it comes down how you interpret his power, but I think he in not on the level of the endless too, because he only absorbed a avatar from the living tribunal and even the real tribunal today is not near to the endless. Sise-Neg just showed infinite-D feats, because he absorbed the whole infinite-D multiverses energy, which includes past and future too. He gets stomped. Winners: The Endless

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#4 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: And one question: What are the victory conditions? When it's death, then the team has absolutely zero chance. Nada, NO CHANCE. To kill the endless, you must kill every being in the DC omniverse. Alone the main DC multiverse is a infinite big multiverse with infinite dimensions. All of this team didn't show a damn thing, which is above infinite-D.

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#5 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

Endless, inb4 HOTU/GED wank.

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#6 Posted by green_skaar (12392 posts) - - Show Bio

Team stomps

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#7 Posted by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 wins it barely inb4 sandman wank ...oops i am late

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#8 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

LMAO, team 2 wank and endless downplay. NICE.

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#9 Posted by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio

LMAO, team 2 wank and endless downplay. NICE.

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#10 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

Endless are so terribly underrated.

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#12 Posted by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by the_red_viper (12737 posts) - - Show Bio

*sigh*

If this thread gets as toxic as the other one it will be locked too. And it seems to be heading in that direction. Either debate with each other respectfully, or don't debate at all.

Moderator
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#16 Posted by Yasindermann (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

@soratoumiga: Me, for example, useses cosmology dimensionsl-tiering (Not this stupid VSbattlewiki stuff). And how do you debate? How are you consider the winner?

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#17 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

The thing about the Endless is that they are very abstract beings.

Lucifer is technically more powerful than the Endless, but the Endless are too fundamental to Creation and Beyond to the point that they are beyond Lucifer capable of permanently getting rid of them. Even IF Lucifer is more powerful than them by raw attack potency.

For example, the Dark Multiverse is literally made of Dreams. It is basically a natural formation from Dream of the Endless formed around the desires and hopes of people living in the smaller and normal DC Multiverse.

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#18 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: I sometimes use dimensional scaling, but only in highest tier character debates. Otherwise, I look at consistent feats, and just apply logic lol.

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#19 Posted by Supermanthor (19872 posts) - - Show Bio

wow i left it for 20 min and this anyway i need someone knowledgeable @sungsam share your thoughts

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#20 Posted by Supermanthor (19872 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

People may think Thanos with Heart of the Universe is the most powerful and the biggest factor, but he really isn't, after that retcon... Absolutely not. Someone already explained how he was retconed to simply not being a multiversal entity. I would put him slightly above Thanos w/ IG, after that retcon, so he gets fodderized by anyone on the Endless team.

Beyonders can be killed by both Destiny and Death.

Scathan is also full of PIS, but let's assume he's above Living Tribunal, even though he's likely not, he still can die at the hands of Death. (Notice how I just use logic here, not only dimensional scaling). Scathan can dream, he has destiny, you know where this leads...

Sise-Neg only appeared in two issues and was implied to be existing by some other issues, but nothing there shows that he's on Endless level, honestly. He didn't even contest with Living Tribunal, it's pure speculation, the only thing he tried to do is to absorb all of magic of the Multiverse. Not quite on Endless level.

God Emperor Doom is simply a noob, honestly. He can't control the powers properly, IG hurt him and I think Black Panther did the same... Clearly outliers, but he doesn't really have enough feats to be put on Endless level, besides creating an infinite dimensional multiverse, iirc.

First Firmament should be a challenge, actually. He should technically be above Multi-Abstracts, including Multi-Eternity, who exists beyond the infinite dimensional Marvel Multiverse. He lacks feats however, and was killed due to pure PIS. He gets taken out by Destiny.

Griever has yet to perform high end feats.

Protege can't copy the fundamental forces of the universe, I'm pretty sure. Endless can take care of him.

Basically, Endless win due to Marvel Team's incapability to actually affect them as concepts.

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#22 Posted by Yamiyodare (1385 posts) - - Show Bio

HOTU Thanos solos, spite.

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#23 Edited by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio

So in other words they cant win because endless are concepts just that ....... what a bunch of crap characters they can be refer as neils pets just because of that they are unbeatable ? give me a break

Also op said most powerful even though i agree hotu is fodder after retcon but this is pre retcon hotu thanos guess comic book nerds are incapable to fully read

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#24 Posted by cosmic_reign (3575 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 STOMPS!

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#26 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicsfansaresalty:

So in other words they cant win because endless are concepts just that

Not really, tell me how are they going to eliminate the Endless if they can't literally erase them? By doing such you'd be basically performing suicide. By killing Dream it means the concept of Dreams and Nightmares would die along with Dream, thus characters below the concept of Dreams, will be killed as well. And Dream is not even the strongest Endless, Destiny and Death outshine him, and speaking of Death... How can they kill her? How can you KILL Death?

And what else would you be able to do to them? BFR? Where would you remove them? Death, for example, is literally everywhere, how can you BFR an omnipresent being? You can't KO them, for obvious reasons, or use hax, because they're hax themselves. You can't put them to sleep or mindrape them or turn their molecules into puddles. They're above all of those concepts.

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#27 Posted by Supermanthor (19872 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicsfansaresalty:

So in other words they cant win because endless are concepts just that

Not really, tell me how are they going to eliminate the Endless if they can't literally erase them? By doing such you'd be basically performing suicide. By killing Dream it means the concept of Dreams and Nightmares would die along with Dream, thus characters below the concept of Dreams, will be killed as well. And Dream is not even the strongest Endless, Destiny and Death outshine him, and speaking of Death... How can they kill her? How can you KILL Death?

And what else would you be able to do to them? BFR? Where would you remove them? Death, for example, is literally everywhere, how can you BFR an omnipresent being? You can't KO them, for obvious reasons, or use hax, because they're hax themselves. You can't put them to sleep or mindrape them or turn their molecules into puddles. They're above all of those concepts.

Still dosnet sold on that they are unbeatable ( if thats the case dc would use them more properly )

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#29 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicsfansaresalty said:
@soratoumiga said:

@comicsfansaresalty:

So in other words they cant win because endless are concepts just that

Not really, tell me how are they going to eliminate the Endless if they can't literally erase them? By doing such you'd be basically performing suicide. By killing Dream it means the concept of Dreams and Nightmares would die along with Dream, thus characters below the concept of Dreams, will be killed as well. And Dream is not even the strongest Endless, Destiny and Death outshine him, and speaking of Death... How can they kill her? How can you KILL Death?

And what else would you be able to do to them? BFR? Where would you remove them? Death, for example, is literally everywhere, how can you BFR an omnipresent being? You can't KO them, for obvious reasons, or use hax, because they're hax themselves. You can't put them to sleep or mindrape them or turn their molecules into puddles. They're above all of those concepts.

Still dosnet sold on that they are unbeatable ( if thats the case dc would use them more properly )

That's because you have are a Marvel Boi who can only hope to have the opposition banned. Lmfao

The Marvel team has no chance of permanently getting rid of the Endless in anyway. They are more abstract than Team Marvel.

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#30 Posted by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@comicsfansaresalty said:
@soratoumiga said:

@comicsfansaresalty:

So in other words they cant win because endless are concepts just that

Not really, tell me how are they going to eliminate the Endless if they can't literally erase them? By doing such you'd be basically performing suicide. By killing Dream it means the concept of Dreams and Nightmares would die along with Dream, thus characters below the concept of Dreams, will be killed as well. And Dream is not even the strongest Endless, Destiny and Death outshine him, and speaking of Death... How can they kill her? How can you KILL Death?

And what else would you be able to do to them? BFR? Where would you remove them? Death, for example, is literally everywhere, how can you BFR an omnipresent being? You can't KO them, for obvious reasons, or use hax, because they're hax themselves. You can't put them to sleep or mindrape them or turn their molecules into puddles. They're above all of those concepts.

Still dosnet sold on that they are unbeatable ( if thats the case dc would use them more properly )

That's because you have a pea little brain Marvel Boi who can only hope to have opposition banned. Lmfao

Whatever neils puppet

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#31 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicsfansaresalty: Notice that DC doesn't use them as regular characters. You don't see them fight. You don't see them take any action. They're just there to do their business and do the job of being a fundamental force of the universe. In sheer destructive capability, well then, maybe, the team 2 wins (still debatable), but this is a regular fight, until KO and death. None of the Endless can really die or be KOed. If they die, a large portion and a concept would be totally erased, the universe wouldn't function.

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#32 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicsfansaresalty said:
@sungsam said:
@comicsfansaresalty said:
@soratoumiga said:

@comicsfansaresalty:

So in other words they cant win because endless are concepts just that

Not really, tell me how are they going to eliminate the Endless if they can't literally erase them? By doing such you'd be basically performing suicide. By killing Dream it means the concept of Dreams and Nightmares would die along with Dream, thus characters below the concept of Dreams, will be killed as well. And Dream is not even the strongest Endless, Destiny and Death outshine him, and speaking of Death... How can they kill her? How can you KILL Death?

And what else would you be able to do to them? BFR? Where would you remove them? Death, for example, is literally everywhere, how can you BFR an omnipresent being? You can't KO them, for obvious reasons, or use hax, because they're hax themselves. You can't put them to sleep or mindrape them or turn their molecules into puddles. They're above all of those concepts.

Still dosnet sold on that they are unbeatable ( if thats the case dc would use them more properly )

That's because you have a pea little brain Marvel Boi who can only hope to have opposition banned. Lmfao

Whatever neils puppet

Your plan didn't work by the way. Wasn't banned! Tee he, all you did was have that thread locked with me as the last word in the argument.

Which in fact AIDED me!!!

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#33 Posted by Supermanthor (19872 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

The Marvel team has no chance of permanently getting rid of the Endless in anyway. They are more abstract than Team Marvel.

so you are saying marvel team cant permantely put them down but can ko them or tieing with them ?

on a off topic ignore that guy he is ...smh

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#34 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

The Marvel team has no chance of permanently getting rid of the Endless in anyway. They are more abstract than Team Marvel.

so you are saying marvel team cant permantely put them down but can ko them or tieing with them ?

on a off topic ignore that guy he is ...smh

Yes, basically. The Endless exist in more Infinite-D Multiverses than Team Marvel. They have more scale and abstract feats for this.

You have to destroy every single Infinite-D Multiverse in DC within the Void which team Marvel has no feats of doing.

I'm a happy Neil puppet though. Lol

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#35 Posted by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@comicsfansaresalty said:
@sungsam said:
@comicsfansaresalty said:
@soratoumiga said:

@comicsfansaresalty:

So in other words they cant win because endless are concepts just that

Not really, tell me how are they going to eliminate the Endless if they can't literally erase them? By doing such you'd be basically performing suicide. By killing Dream it means the concept of Dreams and Nightmares would die along with Dream, thus characters below the concept of Dreams, will be killed as well. And Dream is not even the strongest Endless, Destiny and Death outshine him, and speaking of Death... How can they kill her? How can you KILL Death?

And what else would you be able to do to them? BFR? Where would you remove them? Death, for example, is literally everywhere, how can you BFR an omnipresent being? You can't KO them, for obvious reasons, or use hax, because they're hax themselves. You can't put them to sleep or mindrape them or turn their molecules into puddles. They're above all of those concepts.

Still dosnet sold on that they are unbeatable ( if thats the case dc would use them more properly )

That's because you have a pea little brain Marvel Boi who can only hope to have opposition banned. Lmfao

Whatever neils puppet

Your plan didn't work by the way. Wasn't banned! Tee he, all you did was have that thread locked with me as the last word in the argument.

Which in fact AIDED me!!!

No Caption Provided

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#36 Posted by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicsfansaresalty: Notice that DC doesn't use them as regular characters. You don't see them fight. You don't see them take any action. They're just there to do their business and do the job of being a fundamental force of the universe. In sheer destructive capability, well then, maybe, the team 2 wins (still debatable), but this is a regular fight, until KO and death. None of the Endless can really die or be KOed. If they die, a large portion and a concept would be totally erased, the universe wouldn't function.

How excatly that gonna effect marvel characters tough

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#37 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@soratoumiga said:

@comicsfansaresalty: Notice that DC doesn't use them as regular characters. You don't see them fight. You don't see them take any action. They're just there to do their business and do the job of being a fundamental force of the universe. In sheer destructive capability, well then, maybe, the team 2 wins (still debatable), but this is a regular fight, until KO and death. None of the Endless can really die or be KOed. If they die, a large portion and a concept would be totally erased, the universe wouldn't function.

How excatly that gonna effect marvel characters tough

He just explained it to you and it went over your head. Lmfao

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#38 Posted by Supermanthor (19872 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@supermanthor said:
@sungsam said:

The Marvel team has no chance of permanently getting rid of the Endless in anyway. They are more abstract than Team Marvel.

so you are saying marvel team cant permantely put them down but can ko them or tieing with them ?

on a off topic ignore that guy he is ...smh

Yes, basically. The Endless exist in more Infinite-D Multiverses than Team Marvel. They have more scale and abstract feats for this.

You have to destroy every single Infinite-D Multiverse in DC within the Void which team Marvel has no feats of doing.

I'm a happy Neil puppet though. Lol

thanks now i understand that both marvel and dc team have powers to actually beat each other but in dcs case they are unkillble where marvels are both can beat each other its just marvels teams hope are koing where dcs teams can kill them altough it would be extremely tough got it

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#39 Posted by comicsfansaresalty (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@comicsfansaresalty said:
@soratoumiga said:

@comicsfansaresalty: Notice that DC doesn't use them as regular characters. You don't see them fight. You don't see them take any action. They're just there to do their business and do the job of being a fundamental force of the universe. In sheer destructive capability, well then, maybe, the team 2 wins (still debatable), but this is a regular fight, until KO and death. None of the Endless can really die or be KOed. If they die, a large portion and a concept would be totally erased, the universe wouldn't function.

How excatly that gonna effect marvel characters tough

He just explained it to you and it went over your head. Lmfao

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#40 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@supermanthor said:
@sungsam said:

The Marvel team has no chance of permanently getting rid of the Endless in anyway. They are more abstract than Team Marvel.

so you are saying marvel team cant permantely put them down but can ko them or tieing with them ?

on a off topic ignore that guy he is ...smh

Yes, basically. The Endless exist in more Infinite-D Multiverses than Team Marvel. They have more scale and abstract feats for this.

You have to destroy every single Infinite-D Multiverse in DC within the Void which team Marvel has no feats of doing.

I'm a happy Neil puppet though. Lol

thanks now i understand that both marvel and dc team have powers to actually beat each other but in dcs case they are unkillble where marvels are both can beat each other its just marvels teams hope are koing where dcs teams can kill them altough it would be extremely tough got it

Kind of. The Endless are just way too intangibly abstract for Team Marvel to permanently deal with.

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#41 Posted by Supermanthor (19872 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@supermanthor said:
@sungsam said:
@supermanthor said:
@sungsam said:

The Marvel team has no chance of permanently getting rid of the Endless in anyway. They are more abstract than Team Marvel.

so you are saying marvel team cant permantely put them down but can ko them or tieing with them ?

on a off topic ignore that guy he is ...smh

Yes, basically. The Endless exist in more Infinite-D Multiverses than Team Marvel. They have more scale and abstract feats for this.

You have to destroy every single Infinite-D Multiverse in DC within the Void which team Marvel has no feats of doing.

I'm a happy Neil puppet though. Lol

thanks now i understand that both marvel and dc team have powers to actually beat each other but in dcs case they are unkillble where marvels are both can beat each other its just marvels teams hope are koing where dcs teams can kill them altough it would be extremely tough got it

Kind of. The Endless are just way too intangibly abstract for Team Marvel to permanently deal with.

OH ok i just personally think that way since you agree with me on a degree its enough for me

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#42 Posted by green_skaar (12392 posts) - - Show Bio

What am I reading? Marvel has plenty of abstract beings, and this team has stomped those abstracts to holy hell. They have no problem dealing with abstracts/concepts. Again they stomp.

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#43 Posted by cosmic_reign (3575 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

Yes, basically. The Endless exist in more Infinite-D Multiverses than Team Marvel. They have more scale and abstract feats for this.

Plz explain!

@sungsam said:

The Marvel team has no chance of permanently getting rid of the Endless in anyway. They are more abstract than Team Marvel.

Elaborate on this too plz.

So if Marvel Team has no chance of permanently ridding the Endless, how does the Endless perform such a feat vs this Marvel team?

Online
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#44 Posted by deactivated-5c7e935d3a5a1 (302 posts) - - Show Bio

*sigh*

If this thread gets as toxic as the other one it will be locked too. And it seems to be heading in that direction. Either debate with each other respectfully, or don't debate at all.

you can lock it now, the toxicity only will rise

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#45 Edited by rarelandpupper (337 posts) - - Show Bio

Endless hard negs everything the Marvel Team brings up unless you guys can show me feats of them having absolute platonic archetypal conceptual resistance.

The Endless aren’t just the platonic concepts of what they are they are archetypes of a platonic concept and the first to ever exist.

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#46 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Those Abstracts are simply not on the level of the Endless. Assuming you mean Eternity, Infinity, Oblivion, Living Tribunal and similar.

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#47 Edited by green_skaar (12392 posts) - - Show Bio

Based on what?

@green_skaar: Those Abstracts are simply not on the level of the Endless. Assuming you mean Eternity, Infinity, Oblivion, Living Tribunal and similar.

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#48 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio
@cosmic_reign said:
@sungsam said:

Yes, basically. The Endless exist in more Infinite-D Multiverses than Team Marvel. They have more scale and abstract feats for this.

Plz explain!

@sungsam said:

The Marvel team has no chance of permanently getting rid of the Endless in anyway. They are more abstract than Team Marvel.

Elaborate on this too plz.

So if Marvel Team has no chance of permanently ridding the Endless, how does the Endless perform such a feat vs this Marvel team?

DC's Main Multiverse is Infinite-D. Scott Snyder implied there were infinite more Multiverses like that outside the Source Wall.

The Endless have a history of pervading multiple different Creations across the Void.

Concepts as fundamental as Dreams, Death, etc. are required necessities for those Creations. Thus the Endless pervade there.

For example, Dream has an aspect of himself for Lovecraftian Horrors sleeping outside all Space and Time.

So the Marvel team has no way of feats of dealing against the Endless permanently.

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#49 Posted by Soratoumiga (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Mainly dimensional scaling. Most of those Abstracts are just aspects of one greater concept. Eternity and Infinity are supposed to represent space and time of one universe (or the Multiverse), yet they get defeated by Dormammu and Marquis of Death? Endless wouldn't lose to them, because they represent the very concept the Creation itself is woven upon, and despite Dormammu and MoD being insanely powerful, they are still bound by concepts.

Dimensional scaling also speaks for itself. Even the Multiversal Abstracts would be weaker than the Endless. Endless exist not only in the infinite dimensional DC mainstream multiverse, but also beyond that, in Void, which is even bigger. @sungsam is an expert regarding the scaling of Void, Creation and other spatial dimensions, I think he can explain it pretty well, without using the flawed VSBW system most people would use.

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#50 Posted by godzilla44 (7447 posts) - - Show Bio

Death and Destiny can solo