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#1 Posted by Galan_Destroyer (914 posts) - - Show Bio

The Endless vs Cosmic Compass ( Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion) and IG Users (Thanos, Adam Warlock, Nemesis)

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#2 Edited by Sungsam (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate or could go either way.

The Endless and LT's Court are so cosmologically similar, it doesn't make sense to think it would ever be a stomp even if you thought of a winner.

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#3 Posted by deactivated-5b728068f211c (7069 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#4 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7330 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

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#5 Posted by cosmic_reign (3419 posts) - - Show Bio

T2

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#6 Posted by Galan_Destroyer (914 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by MrStranger (1895 posts) - - Show Bio

could go either way.

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#8 Posted by Warlockmage (9065 posts) - - Show Bio

team 2, the IG users are the MVP

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#9 Posted by The_Wotan (573 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

Endless are merely universal tier creatures in terms of basic power scale, so overall they don't stand a chance against the likes of LT, IG wielders on their own, let alone as a combined team.

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#10 Edited by Sungsam (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_wotan said:

Team 2.

Endless are merely universal tier creatures in terms of basic power scale, so overall they don't stand a chance against the likes of LT, IG wielders on their own, let alone as a combined team.

The Endless are far above Universal Tier, the only basis for that is that Vertigo Writers use the term "Universe" more but the term Universe implies a Totality which means all of DC.

DC's official map of the Main DC Multiverse (albeit incomplete) puts Destiny as being above it, containing it all in his book below. Dream/Morpheus's realm sits in the God Sphere which is above the Bleed Space/Hypertime.

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#11 Posted by RobertMiles1 (1046 posts) - - Show Bio

anyone with the reality gem can just turn all the others into lab rats or wooden statues or etc

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#12 Posted by The_Wotan (573 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam:

The Endless are far above Universal Tier,

Yet have no feats to support that statement, thus you are factually wrong in that regard.

the only basis for that is that Vertigo Writers use the term "Universe" more but the term Universe implies a Totality which means all of DC.

Sorry, but this silly mental gymnastics is not gonna pass up with, since i very well know how Vertigo writers define terms such as Multiverse or Universe, they don't define it as totallity aka Multiverse, they like Carey clarifies in my scan, define it as a SINGLE universe with dimensional structure, to make it simple for you for them it is a universe with dimensions like Hell, Heaven, Mxy's 5th dimension, basically even you should get the point by now.

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DC's official map of the Main DC Multiverse (albeit incomplete) puts Destiny as being above it, containing it all in his book below. Dream/Morpheus's realm sits in the God Sphere which is above the Bleed Space/Hypertime.

*sigh*, you do realize that the map while drawn in 2D format is not supposed to interpreted as that like you did, but as 3D, nor is supposed to give any power tiers to anyone or anything, there is no "above" there as we read it in 3D way, the real way it is supposed to be read, but even if we go by your logic Darkseid's and Highfather's realms are also "above" Multiverse and "Bleed", doesn't make Darkseid or Highfather multiversal level creatures, they are still planetary tier, so what you tried to imply here doesn't follow DC's map's logic, so i would suggest you to cut that nonsense out of here.

Since you seem to not understand what map represents, i'll make it simple for your, the map part with Earth represents DC Multiverse, that's obvious, the realms like Dream's or Darkseid's are realms outside Multiverse, simple as that, there is no above or beyond, it simply tells us where is located each realms, which bleed acting as an interconnector of all of that (ie being able to use it to enter any of the earths in multivere or any realms, it's like multiverse's train, if you will), so just because your realm is located outside Multiverse, doesn't make you some uber powerful character, never did, so the silly mental logistics you tried to present here are not gonna work here.

Also that person holding a book is not DESTINY, the character's name literally is written on page, he is called OVERVOID, i mean i hope you don't lack basic reading comprehension, because missing such basic details is just well...sad.

Overall, your stipulations with trying to pass up this as evidence of multiversal power, doesn't work.

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#13 Posted by Galan_Destroyer (914 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_wotan: And without the IG users how would the marvel abstracts do?

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#14 Posted by EzraArcher (1161 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Oblivion at full power?

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#15 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16239 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure, tbh.

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#16 Posted by Sungsam (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

You know those times when someone is so stupid you just don't bother replying?

I'm in that situation.

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#17 Posted by CaoCao (1300 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 murders.

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#18 Edited by Sungsam (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_wotan said:

@sungsam:

The Endless are far above Universal Tier,

Yet have no feats to support that statement, thus you are factually wrong in that regard.

the only basis for that is that Vertigo Writers use the term "Universe" more but the term Universe implies a Totality which means all of DC.

Sorry, but this silly mental gymnastics is not gonna pass up with, since i very well know how Vertigo writers define terms such as Multiverse or Universe, they don't define it as totallity aka Multiverse, they like Carey clarifies in my scan, define it as a SINGLE universe with dimensional structure, to make it simple for you for them it is a universe with dimensions like Hell, Heaven, Mxy's 5th dimension, basically even you should get the point by now.

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So we'll make this quick, PAY ATTENTION TO THE SOURCES. You might actually learn something about DC other than out of context "anti-Lucifer" debunk posts from Viners here, and applying your head canon wherever.

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So no, Mike Carey confirmed that the reason he uses Universe singularly is because he uses it to imply a totality, the all and the everything, so he sees pluralism within "Universe" in context as redundant because he uses it for Totality. How he uses the Universe is different. So you don't know your stuff. Mike Carey literally by his own words, say that Lucifer is a TOTALITY LEVEL, ALL EXISTENCE LEVEL, ALL DC LEVEL, by this answer, regardless of what you think. And it is only a matter of structure.

You see a Universe as a single world among a Multiverse, while he sees a Universe as a Totality, the OPPOSITE of what you're saying he's saying. We're not even playing word games. At all.

His view on a Universe is literally the size of a Multiverse, because he uses them both in an Omniversal context. But this is irrelevant.

"Universe" doesn't matter because different authors use these words to mean different damn things.

In his own Comic, the first Lucifer, Lucifer was flying, going at the "end" of the so called "universe"/"totality"/"creation of yahweh" and reaches into the Source Wall which now we know is Multiversal Border. So by on panel evidence, we know that the Universe in Vertigo because of where the Source Wall is, is likely WAY more than just a "Multiverse" may as well be a Universe the size of a Multiverse if you will. It doesn't matter.

Both DC as well as Vertigo writers, use "Creation" to imply EVERYTHING, the All. Very rarely does it ever mean 1 World among a many by intricacy.

Secondly, this should come as to no surprise but even if you were right, Mike Carey doesn't even nearly even own the Endless, neither was he the original creator of Sandman nor has he barely even written on the Endless nor is there a statement from Mike Carey on what Destiny is nor is Mike Carey no matter how much you twist his words, an arbiter on DC's Cosmological arrangement. It was Neil Gaiman who is authority on the Endless most of the time. So I don't know why the you're bringing him up and using his statements on Lucifer and applying it to Destiny who has appeared in Mainstream DC way more than Lucy has.

Destiny appears in both DC and Vertigo, he has appeared in works way beyond Neil Gaiman's reach. So I don't know what you're trying to prove here.

A mere COPY of Destiny's Book based on its mere shadow, was stolen, so it can be used to control and manipulate ALL Universes and CREATION (the All):

First Scan. It was stolen. The Copy of Destiny's Book.

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Next. The Book was going to be used to master all Universes in Creation, first scan says it can distort all of History.

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Next. The Endless are described as Wave Functions, required and needed for MWI Quantum Mechanics to Form a Multiverse of Infinite Higher Spatial Dimensions (Hilbert Space).

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Proof that DC's Cosmology has Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics as part of its Multiversal Physics in it is above. So Endless are Multiversal Embodiments, their own existence is a Multiversal feat in itself.

Source from a Science Article that shows how CLOSE the Quantum MWI Metaverse (with Wave Function confirmed with the Endless) are close to the REAL LIFE theories of the MWI Quantum Multiverse, Hilbert Space and Wave Functions and how close they follow it. Pretty much the same explanation you get everywhere.

  • Levels of the multiverse

    Level III: A kind of space different from the space-time of our universe exists (called "Hilbert space," which is infinite-dimensional and abstract), where the laws of quantum mechanics generate multiple universes via innumerable branchings. (This is based on taking seriously the quantum wave function, which is a probability amplitude of the quantum state of the system.) The universe branches into different whole-world realities with every tick of time, whether at every Planck time, which is 10^-43 seconds (the time it takes a photon, traveling at the speed of light, to travel one Planck length, 10^-35 m), or at every instant of time when an observation is made. These other whole worlds would not be far away in terms of our kind of space — so in a sense they are right here — but branched out immensely into this different kind of (Hilbert) space. (This is the "many-worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics, devised by the then relatively unknown physicist Hugh Everett in 1957 and now enjoying new respectability.)

By virtue, Vertigo describes the Endless as Multiversal by calling them Wave Functions. So we know in prospect that Creation in Vertigo is Multiversal.

Put 2 + 2 together, the Endless are Multiversal Absract Entities.

CONTAINS EVERYTHING.

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And the next.

Destiny's Vantage Point from his Book, as the Multiversal Embodiment of Destiny, sees Universe(s) PLURAL.

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Please stop being an extreme anti-DC, Marvel Troll lowballing every DC Cosmic to Universe level, who blindly follows anti-DC Viner opinion with 0 knowledge on Vertigo yourself, like seriously? Who uses Mike Carey as evidence on the Endless?

All GM did, who made the Multiverse map, was be CONSISTENT with Destiny's portrayal. Nothing more. GM is just following what many fucking authors are following of Destiny. And here I thought you worshiped him? Lol?

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#19 Posted by Galan_Destroyer (914 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by xMangog__Beastx (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

T2.

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#22 Posted by Marishtar (2038 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Kingant27 (16899 posts) - - Show Bio

Extremely tough one however I think the X-factor’s being Thanos W/IG, Warlock, Nemesis and Oblivion being above Death the laws of Death should be above the general Endless level by quite a Margin IMO.

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#24 Posted by Soratoumiga (2152 posts) - - Show Bio

IG won't even affect the Endless. Endless win.

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#28 Posted by Galan_Destroyer (914 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio

@galan_destroyer: Not really sure, will have to research a bit and then come back.

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#30 Edited by Sungsam (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that Eternity gets one shotted by a Universe level attack speaks volumes about the overlooked durability of Marvel Abstracts. Multiversal beings with Universe level durability.

This is a stupid suggestion of course you'd see from anti-Marvel lowballers, but see? Lowballing Marvel is as easy as doing it to DC no matter how dumb, like the muh universe level endless, presence etc. so lesson learned? don't do it.

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#31 Posted by deactivated-5b728068f211c (7069 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingant27: How powerful is Oblivion? Don't know much about him.

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#32 Posted by Galan_Destroyer (914 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Edited by bdelloidgrain2 (1916 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahh, I'm glad you tagged me @galan_destroyer!!

Let's get right to the nitty-gritty :)

This match-up is indeed tough. However, I think that this would go to the Endless (very very very slightly). We have enough feats to know that the Endless are capable of dealing with creation as a whole. We have seen Destiny's book, which contains everything passed, present, and future. However, we don't know entirely what that means. Could that mean that the endless also are characters that can affect all of creation? Perhaps. However, one thing I will say in regards to the Endless is that, similar to the Marvel abstracts, they are omnipresent throughout the creation.

The Endless are wave patterns. Ideas. They cannot be destroyed, changed, or affected. They affect everything in the cosmos. So to say can they win in a fight? Perhaps. However, Dream of the Endless was capable of no-selling a multiversal attack (note that universe = multiverse in the case of Sandman).

Now I could discuss the "perhaps" of the Endless and what they are capable of. This sentence I think can summarize everything I've said and will say: The Endless are primal truths that are necessary elements that embody every part of creation.

Now let's talk about Marvel Abstracts shall we? Since I spend too much time on the Endless, I won't spend as much time discussing Marvel characters (do not interpret this as being bias). There is a scan showing Eternity embodying a multiverse. Quite impressive indeed. Furthermore, Oblivion has stated that Chaos King is only a part of him and that is why he (Chaos King) failed to destroy creation. Not too much going on for Oblivion (feats wise). Infinity and Death? Could not find much, but Death is stated to be roughly equal to the other Abstracts. Infinity is the physical manifestation of reality. An equal to Eternity.

Now that we have a bit of background information on these characters, let's debate! I think Death of the Endless would win this fight. Why and how? Let's address Destiny's book of past, present, and future. This means that Destiny is capable of affecting and altering events. He can affect the entirety of creation! The Endless are capable of affecting all of reality, all of creation. As stated by @sungsam, the Endless are multiversal and abstract. I think that they would come out in a slight majority here as they are eternal and fundamental aspects of the Vertigo (and even DC) creation. The Endless are components that are capable of altering and affecting it.

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#34 Posted by RampageTheFirst (7330 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#37 Posted by geeman2 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

batman comes in and stomps both.

On a serious note team 2 takes this.

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#38 Posted by Jmarshmallow (13840 posts) - - Show Bio

The Endless win if you put value in hype and scaling.

Team Marvel win if you value actual combat feats, since Endless don’t have all that many.

I personally value both, and based off that I’d give it to the Endless.

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#39 Posted by Galan_Destroyer (914 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Oblivion at full power?

Yes, everyone is at full power here

IG won't even affect the Endless. Endless win.

You know well the endless to do a CaV against me?

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#40 Posted by RanaProGamer (1647 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel Powerhouses takes this

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#41 Posted by EzraArcher (1161 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by RanaProGamer (1647 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by baph (1343 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel Team.

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#44 Edited by Sungsam (2933 posts) - - Show Bio
@ezraarcher said:

@ranaprogamer:

Tbh I think it all depends on Oblivion

Oblivion is equal in power to Infinity if I recall correctly. He really doesn't add anything more significant compared to the other three. He's mostly overhyped because of the "outerverse" non sense and the "nothingness > somethingness" wank.

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#45 Posted by EzraArcher (1161 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@ezraarcher said:

@ranaprogamer:

Tbh I think it all depends on Oblivion

Oblivion is equal in power to Infinity if I recall correctly. He really doesn't add anything more significant compared to the other three. He's mostly overhyped because of the "outerverse" non sense and the "nothingness > somethingness" wank.

To be fair most of the things hes done needs to take some statements into account. For example when the Chaos King destroyed 99% of Multiverse it turned out he borrowed 1/∞th of his power IIRC

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#46 Posted by niBBit (759 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry if i say something stupid here but, can't the Endless simply be unmade like anything else. I mean they where created by God right? who made the rules or wave paterns or whatever, that wherever there is life there is Death. Can't a being like Nemesis who as i understand can create an entire universe, doesn't she also make the rules of what goes on there? I would be weird if a creator like Nemesis creates a universe and out of nowhere Death shows up, she needs to be thought up or be created right? So why would't a IG user or Nemesis have the power to unmake/change/destroy them considering an IG user can change the universe and its rules itself.

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#47 Posted by Sungsam (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@ezraarcher said:

@ranaprogamer:

Tbh I think it all depends on Oblivion

Oblivion is equal in power to Infinity if I recall correctly. He really doesn't add anything more significant compared to the other three. He's mostly overhyped because of the "outerverse" non sense and the "nothingness > somethingness" wank.

To be fair most of the things hes done needs to take some statements into account. For example when the Chaos King destroyed 99% of Multiverse it turned out he borrowed 1/∞th of his power IIRC

What Chaos King did needs some serious context behind it. If I recall correctly, I hear hit was because CK absorbed the power of countless Gods and Pantheons. It's not because of Oblivion's power and had nothing to do with Oblivion.

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#48 Edited by Sungsam (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

@nibbit said:

Sorry if i say something stupid here but, can't the Endless simply be unmade like anything else. I mean they where created by God right? who made the rules or wave paterns or whatever, that wherever there is life there is Death. Can't a being like Nemesis who as i understand can create an entire universe, doesn't she also make the rules of what goes on there? I would be weird if a creator like Nemesis creates a universe and out of nowhere Death shows up, she needs to be thought up or be created right? So why would't a IG user or Nemesis have the power to unmake/change/destroy them considering an IG user can change the universe and its rules itself.

Of course the Endless can be unmade. They're Abstracts and Side Effects of God's Creation, of course they're created by God, but so are the Marvel Abstracts created by God as well and fill similar roles and shoes as that of the Endles. And all the Infinity Gauntlents that which are bound to their Universe (or not) are also created by God.

in Sandman Dream of a Thousand Cats, Dream of the Endless changed the Universe's entire history in a crazy manner (probably the entire Multiverse where humans exist) as there was a time or a previous version of the Universe when Cats dominated Earth with Humans as their prey. Dream changed the history of the Universe VIA the Dreams of Humans to retroactively change the history from start to finish to make it so the Humans were dominant all this time. (Read Dream of a Thousand Cats)

Your talk about like reality warping, destroying universes, unmaking, changing and destroying history are good and all, well within the casual powers of Team Marvel, but that is already a trait or a level of power at least recognizable among the Endless.

And the Marvel Abstracts and the IG and its Users are also creations of God just as the Endless are. They can all be unmade, question is, do they have the power to unmake each other? It's all about Reality Warping Multiversal Omnipotence power levels.

Not saying the Endless win, but those aren't good enough reasons against the Endless for them to lose if the Endless can do the same.

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#49 Posted by niBBit (759 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Ah is see. Thx for explaining :)

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#50 Posted by Juliusz2006 (484 posts) - - Show Bio

stalemate maybe the endless