The Dragonborn vs Daenerys Targaryen

How is this fair?

A random Ancient Tongue would be enough to win this.

One Dragon alone is usually depicted as a decent fight for Dragonborn in a universe with weaker dragons than Game of Thrones on average. He isn't taking three.

>literally eats dragons for breakfast

>challenge

Pick one.

@lubub55: lmao my character can take like 10 dragons no problem at all, would be a lot higher if my computer could handle the load.

The Dragonborn kills her and there is much rejoicing. Poor dragons, though.

The Dragonborn has all his shouts, and every skill mastered. The Dragonborn has access to every weapon in Skyrim.

This isn't fair.

DB stomps. LOL at DB having problems with a dragon. That is if you're low level.

You're unable to face that many Dragons at once without console commands, which shows that individual Dragons are supposed to be able to give at least a fight individually.

Let's assess the raw power of one, inexperienced Shout user from the ancient times.

It sounds impossible, but we appeared to have stumbled upon a massive hold out of the Dragon Cultists, who were believed to be wiped out during the Dragon War. The Elves must wait, as this is a threat we cannot ignore. If we are quick, we may be able to catch them unaware and avoid a lengthy siege.

21st of Evening Star 1E139

Third week of the siege. The men grow restless with the cold and all miss their families. If that blasted storm hadn't caught us off guard and slowed our ascent we might have taken the Monastery, but as it stands we may be in for several more weeks of pounding on their walls. I've sent word to Harald to send one of the Voice masters to help bring down the wall.

4th of Morning Star 1E140

We've brought down their main gate thanks to the young Voice master, but the brash lad took an arrow in the neck in the process. It seems he will be joining the Eight in Sovngarde soon.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/skorm-snow-striders-journal

This is reiterated here regarding the sieges done on city walls.

The power of a Nord can be articulated into a shout, like the kiai of an Akaviri swordsman. The strongest of their warriors are called "Tongues." When the Nords attack a city, they take no siege engines or cavalry; the Tongues form in a wedge in front of the gatehouse, and draw in breath. When the leader lets it out in a kiai, the doors are blown in, and the axemen rush into the city.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/children-sky

And here:

In the days of the Conquest of Morrowind and the founding of the First Empire, the great Nord war chiefs - Derek the Tall, Jorg Helmbolg, Hoag Merkiller - were all Tongues. When they attacked a city, they needed no siege engines; the Tongues would form up in a wedge in front of the gatehouse, and draw in breath. When the leader let it out in a thu'um, the doors were blown in, and the axemen rushed into the city. Such were the men that forged the First Empire.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-skyrim

Now what happens when 17 of these city-wall shattering Voices all Shout at one person for several days, without receiving a single counterattack?

The Tongues at Red Mountain went away humbled

Jurgen Windcaller began His Seven Year Meditation

To understand how Strong Voices could fail

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/high-hrothgar-tablets-emblem-vii

Jurgen Windcaller chose silence and returned

The 17 disputants could not shout Him down

Jurgen the Calm built His home on the Throat of the World

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/high-hrothgar-tablets-emblem-viii

But, alas for the Nords, one of the mightiest of all the Tongues, Jurgen Windcaller (or The Calm, as he is better known today), became converted to a pacifist creed that denounced use of the Voice for martial exploits. His philosophy prevailed, largely due to his unshakable mastery of the Voice -- his victory was sealed in a legendary confrontation, where The Calm is said to have "swallowed the Shouts" of seventeen Tongues of the militant school for three days until his opponents all lay exhausted (and then became his disciples).

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-skyrim

“After the disaster at Red Mountain, where the Nord army was annihilated, he spent many years pondering the meaning of that terrible defeat. He finally came to realise that the gods had punished the Nords for their arrogant and blasphemous misuse of the Voice. He was the first to understand that the Voice should be used solely for the glory and worship of the gods, not the glory of men. Jurgen Windcaller’s mastery of the Voice eventually overcame all opposition, and the Way of the Voice was born.”

https://youtu.be/3jkhvQJhDc0?t=13m9s

And who is Jurgen Windcaller? The founder of the Greybeards. The four we see in Skyrim similarly shouted at the Dragonborn and caused no damage to him. They're also weaker than their leader, Paarthurnax, who the Dragonborn can optionally slay and absorb the power and knowledge of. Paarthurnax was also swatted aside by Alduin, who the Dragonborn defeated twice.

All of this being before the Dragonborn is stomped by Miraak, undergoes a power creep from reading the Black Books, and then returns to defeat Miraak three times in a row and absorb his accumulated power and knowledge.

So to answer your question, OP, if Daenerys and her dragons can be likened to ants, you are basically asking if you need an elephant to defeat them, when a household cat like one of the first tongues would suffice.

No, it doesn't. All it shows is that he fights one, not that it's particularly difficult. The likes of Alduin, the Greybeards and Miraak would fodderise a dozen dragons, let alone prime Dragonborn.

Moreover, your premise that an ES dragon is necessarily weaker than one from GoT is fallacious, because any being that can "give a fight" to the Dragonborn would oneshot a GoT dragon. You're welcome to make a case suggesting otherwise.

@lubub55: how is me soloing 10 dragons prove that 1 is a challenge?

Without cheating I can make armour that heals 10000% of my hp ever second, or create a spell that deal 5k dmg ever second. Did Bronn look like he was doing 5k dmg per second when hr nearly killed Drogan?

I was shitstomping Ancient Dragons before I even reached lvl 81. That was without exploiting the game to have ridiculous stats and weapons so this is true.

After that I used the fortify restoration glitch to get 60 billion, health, magicka and stamina with weapons that deal 5 million damage. I threw in enchantments on gear that let me regenerate health 131,000% faster on top of that too because why not.

@socajunkie: Jesus and I thought my character was broken.

Using console commands/exploits to make your player character invincible with unlimited shouts is the most accurate canon depiction.

Dragonborn just enslaves them.

It's kinda boring now because of it. I also got zero shout cool down time.

@socajunkie: Yeah, my 3rd DB was almost maxed out at an early stage of the game due to a glitch with a scroll. Plus i pretty much spend most of the time searching for daedric hearts to make Daedric Armor. The Dragons coudn't do shit to me.

Plus i was loaded with gold, thanks to a glitch that lets you search a hidden chest, ez gold.

You ever saved, slaughtered a hold for the lulz and reloaded?

I member

@socajunkie: Yeah, i remember shitstomping the Whiterun guards and animals with shouts/Werewolf. Pretty fun lol.

Gud times

It is, only reason I reloaded is because I felt like a dick and needed some of the people to buy stuff from.

But I needed dat serial killer thrill.

Dragonborn stomps

So he kills the dragon(s) then does a Maria Carey piece that makes Dany's head explode.

@jashro44@juiceboks@jedixman this is spite

I also dunno about GoT Dragons being stronger since Drogon and co can't drain vitality or summon a meteor shower.

@i_like_swords:

No, it doesn't. All it shows is that he fights one, not that it's particularly difficult. The likes of Alduin, the Greybeards and Miraak would fodderise a dozen dragons, let alone prime Dragonborn.

Bethesda would be willing to have him face more simultaneously in the games if it was something he could consistently pull off. There's a reason we see Dragonborn fight lots of weaker enemies like bandits and wolves at once but not things like Dragons. I'm not saying his life is in serious danger every time he faces a Dragon, what I'm saying is that he can't just steamroll through a dozen like people seem to be making out. A full power Dragonborn can beat one Dragon comfortably and consistently, but when the numbers increase it's outside of the zone he usually operates at.

An actual trailer for the game shows him being challenged by a single Dragon, and I'm sure Bethesda place a lot more stock on actual trailers that everybody sees to promote the game than the writings you have to dig for in in-game books.

Moreover, your premise that an ES dragon is necessarily weaker than one from GoT is fallacious, because any being that can "give a fight" to the Dragonborn would oneshot a GoT dragon. You're welcome to make a case suggesting otherwise.

Not true. The standard Dragons in Skyrim can be felled by a squad of guards. Dragonborn was with them, but he didn't have his powers unlocked at this point so for all intents and purposes he was a skilled mortal. Obviously this wouldn't happen with the Dragons being used here. Then there are boss battles like Cicero and Harkon, with the contexts of both favouring Dragonborn and having him being given a fight anyway. If they weren't supposed to be any challenge then they wouldn't have been made into boss fights. Cicero was injured during the fight with him, and Dragonborn had the help of Harkon's daughter to beat him. With Cicero I see him as having been an annoyance rather than an actual threat, but with Harkon it was a hyped up fight at the climax of the DLC. There's a reason Harkon couldn't just go out and singlehandedly achieve all his goals and that the Dawnguard were a threat to him, and that reason is that he isn't powerful enough. It's the same reason why Ulfric Stormcloak, who can use the Voice, had to fight a war by conventional means and couldn't just storm Solitude. Once again, it's because he wasn't powerful enough. Even when either side has Dragonborn, an army is needed to win the war and that's after a series of missions weakening the other side.

When The Companions offered the Dragonborn the chance to become a werewolf it was portrayed as a way of becoming a lot more powerful whilst losing tactical ability, and the same applies to when Harkon offered him the ability to become a Vampire Lord. If Dragonborn was as consitently powerful as you make out, these wouldn't be amps. Dragonborn has a lot of theoretical power as detailed by books in-game and other writings, but it's not something we see him consistently use and the game itself - which takes priority - shows scenarios where he struggles with or outright can't achieve goals that would be easy if the main developers of the game wrote him with as much general power as the texts did, which are often historical writings and consequently not as credible a source as what we see in-game.

Using console commands/exploits to make your player character invincible with unlimited shouts is the most accurate canon depiction.

When you're killed in-game, it's shown through death animations which depict the Dragonborn being killed a load of different ways like stabbed, decapitated, clubbed and eaten, all except the last one by humans. The Dragonborn is never shown to be invincible, and that's shown even further in quests and cutscenes where there is dialogue after losing bar fights and in the Thieves' Guild questline where you're shot with an arrow by Mercer Frey. And though Shouts obviously don't have an actual cooldown in canon, I interpret it to represent the effort it takes. In all videos we see of him he never just wins all the time by Shouting at everything and that's probably because it's straining.

@lubub55:

Bethesda would be willing to have him face more simultaneously in the games if it was something he could consistently pull off.

I wasn't aware you spoke for Bethesda, or that gameplay is canon.

There's a reason we see Dragonborn fight lots of weaker enemies like bandits and wolves at once but not things like Dragons.

You're assuming the reason. You don't actually have a counter for the evidence itself other than appealing to gameplay. The entire world of ES is scaled down massively - Whiterun doesn't actually have a few dozen people as it's population, believe it or not. The 20 dragon skeletons littered around Miraak's temple from the "great battle" that took place there are also massively scaled down compared to how many he actually fought at the time.

Again, Jurgen Windcaller was untouchable to the 17 strongest tongues, any one of which could slay your average dragon and destroy city walls which requires weeks of battering from siege engines. The idea that the number of enemies the DB faces in gameplay is a canon depiction of what should challenge him is completely absurd.

An actual trailer for the game

Oh look, more non-canon evidence.

and I'm sure Bethesda place a lot more stock on actual trailers that everybody sees to promote the game than the writings you have to dig for in in-game books.

Yeah, non-canon marketing material designed to sell how fun the gameplay looks takes precedent over in-game lore when discussing in-game lore. Makes sense.

Not true. The standard Dragons in Skyrim can be felled by a squad of guards. Dragonborn was with them, but he didn't have his powers unlocked at this point so for all intents and purposes he was a skilled mortal. Obviously this wouldn't happen with the Dragons being used here.

That dragon would be fodder for the Dragonborn in the early-mid story, and a snack by the time we get to end game, so nah, I'm not sure how this proves your point that all ES dragons are below GoT dragons. Not all dragons are created equal.

Then there are boss battles like Cicero and Harkon, with the contexts of both favouring Dragonborn and having him being given a fight anyway.

Proof he was "given a fight?"

If they weren't supposed to be any challenge then they wouldn't have been made into boss fights.

Another faulty premise.

Cicero was injured during the fight with him, and Dragonborn had the help of Harkon's daughter to beat him.

That doesn't mean he needed her help. You can give Harkon Auriel's bow and still kick his ass in the heart of his power, lol.

With Cicero I see him as having been an annoyance rather than an actual threat, but with Harkon it was a hyped up fight at the climax of the DLC. There's a reason Harkon couldn't just go out and singlehandedly achieve all his goals and that the Dawnguard were a threat to him, and that reason is that he isn't powerful enough.

Do you have a point?

It's the same reason why Ulfric Stormcloak, who can use the Voice, had to fight a war by conventional means and couldn't just storm Solitude. Once again, it's because he wasn't powerful enough.

Yeah, Ulfric is actually that weak. He's also an insect to everyone I've mentioned so far, so no dice.

Even when either side has Dragonborn, an army is needed to win the war and that's after a series of missions weakening the other side.

Well yeah, the Dragonborn can't be everywhere at once. But he is the sole reason for either side winning.

Anyway, if you have an actual counter for the in-game lore, do let me know. Your hyper-rationalisation isn't an argument.

When you're killed in-game, it's shown through death animations which depict the Dragonborn being killed a load of different ways like stabbed, decapitated, clubbed and eaten, all except the last one by humans. The Dragonborn is never shown to be invincible, and that's shown even further in quests and cutscenes where there is dialogue after losing bar fights and in the Thieves' Guild questline where you're shot with an arrow by Mercer Frey. And though Shouts obviously don't have an actual cooldown in canon, I interpret it to represent the effort it takes. In all videos we see of him he never just wins all the time by Shouting at everything and that's probably because it's straining.

Unless you're suggesting every single possible event in the games are canon, this is also a terrible argument.

This is a complete mismatch.

The Dragonborn uses Bend Will on the three dragons and then he and Daenerys end up marrying each other.

@i_like_swords:

I wasn't aware you spoke for Bethesda, or that gameplay is canon.

Official trailers are obviously meant to be representative of the character's abilities. There's a voiceover that describes Dragonborn and who he is, and then video of him fighting a Dragon. I don't think it gets much more clear. That's what the vast majority of the audience are going to see and Bethesda knows that, so they show use it to show Dragonborn's consistent ability.

You're assuming the reason. You don't actually have a counter for the evidence itself other than appealing to gameplay. The entire world of ES is scaled down massively - Whiterun doesn't actually have a few dozen people as it's population, believe it or not. The 20 dragon skeletons littered around Miraak's temple from the "great battle" that took place there are also massively scaled down compared to how many he actually fought at the time.

Of course there are more people than we see in the major cities, but that's an awful comparison. We know the game engine can render a higher amount of Dragons because we see more in the final mission of the game but the Dragonborn isn't able to fight them all at once. The population of cities is obviously a limitation of the engine, but we know it's able to render more Dragons than we see because of console commands. Saying he probably fights more isn't evidence.

Again, Jurgen Windcaller was untouchable to the 17 strongest tongues, any one of which could slay your average dragon and destroy city walls which requires weeks of battering from siege engines. The idea that the number of enemies the DB faces in gameplay is a canon depiction of what should challenge him is completely absurd.

Already gone over the validity of historical texts from anonymous authors compared to what we actually see Dragonborn himself do in trailers and in game.

Oh look, more non-canon evidence.

Calling things that disprove your claims "non-canon evidence" isn't very compelling evidence.

Yeah, non-canon marketing material designed to sell how fun the gameplay looks takes precedent over in-game lore when discussing in-game lore. Makes sense.

Okay, you keep doing this. We don't see footage of gameplay when Dragonborn fights the Dragon in this, meaning it's obviously not used to sell based on gameplay. That's used to establish story and lore before showing in-game clips. Actual trailers with narration are much more credible than historical texts which contradict what the game shows. Everything but that is pretty consistent. The logical explanation is that the texts were added as a bonus without much thought going into them and the power levels they depicted. Trailers and the quests of the game itself clearly take priority.

That dragon would be fodder for the Dragonborn in the early-mid story, and a snack by the time we get to end game, so nah, I'm not sure how this proves your point that all ES dragons are below GoT dragons. Not all dragons are created equal.

Woah woah woah, I said "on average". I agree the most powerful The Elder Scrolls Dragon would be more powerful than the most powerful Game of Thrones Dragon. This is not an argument I was making at all. You said anything that can give Dragonborn a fight can one-shot these Dragons, so I showed an official trailer depicting a Dragon giving Dragonborn a challenge and then a main story quest that shows a Dragon's limits. You said 'any being that can "give a fight" to the Dragonborn would oneshot a GoT dragon' and I used the above to prove that as wrong.

Proof he was "given a fight?"

Because it was a literal boss battle, one being at the DLC's climax. They're not going to have a boss battle of something that wasn't a challenge because that would be idiotic and saying so goes against common sense.

Another faulty premise.

Like calling sources with credibility "non-canon"?

That doesn't mean he needed her help. You can give Harkon Auriel's bow and still kick his ass in the heart of his power, lol.

We know that Serana was canonically there fighting with Dragonborn. If he could just stomp Harkon then there would be no reason for him to have a fighting partner.

Do you have a point?

Yes. Dragonborn was challenged by somebody who isn't as powerful as you're making out. I'll also go back to your quote of 'any being that can "give a fight" to the Dragonborn would oneshot a GoT dragon'.

Well yeah, the Dragonborn can't be everywhere at once. But he is the sole reason for either side winning.

I agree, but that doesn't disprove what I said or really prove anything. He doesn't have to be everywhere at once for this logic to hold up, he has to be in one place. If he were as powerful as you say, he'd have been sent to Solitude or Windhelm at the start because he'd be powerful enough to win the war without needing a great battle. There would be no need for an army to back him up either. The fact that there is shows he isn't capable of taking either of the cities on his own.

Anyway, if you have an actual counter for the in-game lore, do let me know. Your hyper-rationalisation isn't an argument.

I think actual trailers, quests, in-game animations and logic are perfect counters for historical texts from questionable sources which don't hold up to scrutiny from events actually witnessed.

Unless you're suggesting every single possible event in the games are canon, this is also a terrible argument.

Here you're trying to dismiss quests, cutscenes, dialogue and animations because every one of them goes against the Dragonborn being as powerful as you make him out to be. When there's this much actual evidence showing he isn't that powerful, then what's you're reasoning behind dismissing it and choosing to use what's obviously less credible as a replacement?

Mismatch, Dragonborn slaughters with ease.

@lubub55: Official trailers are obviously meant to be representative of the character's abilities. There's a voiceover that describes Dragonborn and who he is, and then video of him fighting a Dragon. I don't think it gets much more clear. That's what the vast majority of the audience are going to see and Bethesda knows that, so they show use it to show Dragonborn's consistent ability.

You forgot to put "in my opinion," because that's pretty much all you gave me there.

Of course there are more people than we see in the major cities, but that's an awful comparison. We know the game engine can render a higher amount of Dragons because we see more in the final mission of the game but the Dragonborn isn't able to fight them all at once. The population of cities is obviously a limitation of the engine, but we know it's able to render more Dragons than we see because of console commands. Saying he probably fights more isn't evidence.

Same logic could be applied to bandits. The same 4-5 man group of bandits is generated per room in your average dungeon, but good luck convincing anyone that this should be considered a "decent fight" for a minor god. That the game engine could squeeze out a few more bandits but chooses not to is both obvious and besides the point, and it's the same case with dragons.

So no, none of this necessitates that one dragon is a decent fight for the guy who defeated Alduin.

Already gone over the validity of historical texts from anonymous authors compared to what we actually see Dragonborn himself do in trailers and in game.

Yeah, an eye witness journal that is corroborated by two other texts is totally invalid, but lets pay attention to non-canon promotional material. I like your style.

Calling things that disprove your claims "non-canon evidence" isn't very compelling evidence.

Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Prove that trailers are canon.

Okay, you keep doing this. We don't see footage of gameplay when Dragonborn fights the Dragon in this, meaning it's obviously not used to sell based on gameplay. That's used to establish story and lore before showing in-game clips. Actual trailers with narration are much more credible than historical texts which contradict what the game shows. Everything but that is pretty consistent. The logical explanation is that the texts were added as a bonus without much thought going into them and the power levels they depicted. Trailers and the quests of the game itself clearly take priority.

How is it "obvious" that a game trailer isn't trying to sell gameplay? It shows the DB fighting a dragon and shouting at it, both gameplay features. No shit it's trying to sell the lore, the same lore you conveniently choose to ignore when it suits you.

Show me where the texts are contradicted by the game, I'll wait. I also like how you think the trailer is a contradiction of the in-universe lore and not the other way around.

Also show me where the lore "didn't have much thought put into it", even though Bethesda spend ludicrous amounts of manpower and money on writing said texts, and have gone to great lengths in the past to express how important they are for worldbuilding.

In fact, just try to get in the habit of backing up your claims in general, it helps speed things along.

Woah woah woah, I said "on average". I agree the most powerful The Elder Scrolls Dragon would be more powerful than the most powerful Game of Thrones Dragon. This is not an argument I was making at all. You said anything that can give Dragonborn a fight can one-shot these Dragons,

Which is correct.

so I showed an official trailer depicting a Dragon giving Dragonborn a challenge

Which isn't canon, and is promotional material.

and then a main story quest that shows a Dragon's limits.

"Not all dragons are created equal." Alduin, for instance, can't be stopped by anyone but the Dragonborn.

You said 'any being that can "give a fight" to the Dragonborn would oneshot a GoT dragon' and I used the above to prove that as wrong.

And you failed miserably.

Because it was a literal boss battle, one being at the DLC's climax. They're not going to have a boss battle of something that wasn't a challenge because that would be idiotic and saying so goes against common sense.

Boss battles don't need to be a challenge in-universe for them to be entertaining in terms of gameplay, and it's entirely possible for Harkon to be immensely powerful given that mages in Elder Scrolls pull shit like this off on the regular:

Also, before you say "but trailer", you lose whether I use your logic or just tell the truth. Step wisely from here.

We know that Serana was canonically there fighting with Dragonborn. If he could just stomp Harkon then there would be no reason for him to have a fighting partner.

She's Harkon's daughter and is integral to the story, that's why she's there. Prove she needed to be there or stop talking.

Regarding Cicero and the Civil war:

Here you're trying to dismiss quests

I'm dismissing quests that are not essential to the Dragonborn's character or story. He isn't necessarily addressed as "Dragonborn" in quests like the Civil War or Dark Brotherhood. They're beneath his paygrade, which is why, unlike the main story, they can be completed before he has ever learned how to Shout. He can be a "skilled mortal" as you put it and complete them all the same.

That doesn't necessarily mean the guy who completes the main story would have an issue with Cicero or some normal people. He could destroy them in any number of ways, not the least of which is mental enslavement, disintegration or ripping out their souls.

Another indication of this in-universe is the fact that everyone knew a dragon was being guarded by the Greybeards on High Hrothgar, but specifically because they were there, no armies were ever sent to kill Paarthurnax - even though the Blades and the Empire were trying to genocide the race of dragons.

At the end of the day, while I can understand that 95% of the challenges in Skyrim are hilariously below the Dragonborn's paygrade, I'm unwilling to accept this as an argument for why they should be his paygrade. Per all available information, the dragons, greybeards and voice users, as well as mages across the board in Elder Scrolls, are ludicrously powerful, and just because this isn't necessarily represented explicitly in gameplay does nothing to change certain facts and events from being real. It's purely up to you whether you want to accept them or not, but to deny they exist at all is just willful ignorance.

I think actual trailers, quests, in-game animations and logic are perfect counters for historical texts from questionable sources which don't hold up to scrutiny from events actually witnessed.

Explain why the texts are "questionable" or stop talking.

Dragonborn stomps

Wabbajack

Dragonborn murderstomps Daenerys. That isn´t a fight. It´s an execution.

- All Shouts

- Powerfull Magic Spells (I don´t see how Daenerys can block Illusion Magic, or can fight against two dremora lords)

- Powerfull Weapons from deadric gods

- Beat the shit out of Alduin

Maybe not relevant, but noteworthy

- He is the champion of many deadric gods

How should Daenerys even hit Dovahkiin?

@i_like_swords:

You forgot to put "in my opinion," because that's pretty much all you gave me there.

No, I stated what's obvious. An official trailer with narration obviously has more credibility than historical texts which contradict everything else.

Same logic could be applied to bandits. The same 4-5 man group of bandits is generated per room in your average dungeon, but good luck convincing anyone that this should be considered a "decent fight" for a minor god. That the game engine could squeeze out a few more bandits but chooses not to is both obvious and besides the point, and it's the same case with dragons.

Bandits aren't boss fights, making this another poor comparison.

So no, none of this necessitates that one dragon is a decent fight for the guy who defeated Alduin.

Both trailers and the game itself show one Dragon can give a fight.

And using Alduin as proof to the contrary isn't very good evidence, because once again the Dragonborn had help in both fights.

Yeah, an eye witness journal that is corroborated by two other texts is totally invalid, but lets pay attention to non-canon promotional material. I like your style.

I never said it was "totally invalid", I said it's obviously less credible than historical writings which is true whether you want to admit it or not. Calling things you don't like non-canon, backtracking on your points after being proven wrong and debunking strawman arguments do not prove your point. It's common sense that cinematic trailers used to show off the character fit the developers' intentions. Trying to dismiss everything else and focus on in-game journals which aren't essential and are contradictory to the story and everything else we see is a flawed method.

Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Prove that trailers are canon.

This... Must be a joke. Why on Earth would Bethesda portray the protagonist of one of its games as weaker than he actually is? Surely if you're saying it's for marketing they'd make him appear more powerful. And it isn't even gameplay. You're reaching here and you know it.

How is it "obvious" that a game trailer isn't trying to sell gameplay? It shows the DB fighting a dragon and shouting at it, both gameplay features. No shit it's trying to sell the lore, the same lore you conveniently choose to ignore when it suits you.

When it isn't showing gameplay then it's clearly not trying to sell gameplay. I'm dumbfounded here. Like, what?

Show me where the texts are contradicted by the game, I'll wait. I also like how you think the trailer is a contradiction of the in-universe lore and not the other way around.

I've already shown you. See my first response to you. Ignoring it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just like all the trailers, animations and quests.

Also show me where the lore "didn't have much thought put into it", even though Bethesda spend ludicrous amounts of manpower and money on writing said texts, and have gone to great lengths in the past to express how important they are for worldbuilding.

Worldbuilding is more than just in-game texts that people search through to find feats. Are you honestly trying to make the argument that Bethesda put less effort and manpower into their main trailers that are meant to get recognition for the game than they do with in-game texts that barely anyone reads?

In fact, just try to get in the habit of backing up your claims in general, it helps speed things along.

If you want to get through things quicker I'd suggest responding to my arguments rather than strawmen you've made, but I don't think you're capable of doing that.

Which is correct.

Lol, saying it doesn't make it so. Evidence which you've conveniently chosen not to respond to prove it wrong, but you don't seem to want to acknowledge that.

Which isn't canon, and is promotional material.

Saying foolish things without evidence is not an actual argument. Do you think Bethesda find it fun to make non-canon trailers which depict their protagonists as much weaker than they actually are? You're saying it isn't canon or representative without any basis other than a source contradicted by every other. I'd genuinely like to hear your explanation for this.

"Not all dragons are created equal." Alduin, for instance, can't be stopped by anyone but the Dragonborn.

I literally already said that, specifically referring to Alduin ("the most powerful dragon") in my last post.

And you failed miserably.

You somehow forgot to provide evidence to counter it and are relying on a lack of common sense, so I think I've done pretty great. Saying "Not all dragons are created equal" which has nothing to do with the point I'm countering and then ignoring everything that proves you wrong doesn't make you right. It makes you unable to admit that you're wrong.

Boss battles don't need to be a challenge in-universe for them to be entertaining in terms of gameplay, and it's entirely possible for Harkon to be immensely powerful given that mages in Elder Scrolls pull shit like this off on the regular:

What's this? EVIDENCE??? Nicely done. I actually give you props for this. Congrats.

She's Harkon's daughter and is integral to the story, that's why she's there. Prove she needed to be there or stop talking.

Being integral to the story doesn't mean she needed to be there fighting alongside Dragonborn. If you're saying she wasn't needed and he wasn't a threat, then prove it. The burden of proof is on you considering she was canonically there. Theorising that she wasn't a factor isn't evidence.

I'm dismissing quests that are not essential to the Dragonborn's character or story. He isn't necessarily addressed as "Dragonborn" in quests like the Civil War or Dark Brotherhood. They're beneath his paygrade, which is why, unlike the main story, they can be completed before he has ever learned how to Shout. He can be a "skilled mortal" as you put it and complete them all the same.

Whether they use the title or not is irrelevant because it's the same character. If you're sided with either Ulfric or Tullius in the Civil War it is mentioned in the peace talks at High Hrothgar. And saying that he can do it without yet being the Dragonborn furthers my point, and means that him being responsible for his side winning is more story based than anything.

That doesn't necessarily mean the guy who completes the main story would have an issue with Cicero or some normal people. He could destroy them in any number of ways, not the least of which is mental enslavement, disintegration or ripping out their souls.

Well with Cicero I described him as an "annoyance" rather than an actual threat so in hindsight that was probably a bad example. In the context of the fight I think it was because of the surprise factor of him being able to fight when injured.

At the end of the day, while I can understand that 95% of the challenges in Skyrim are hilariously below the Dragonborn's paygrade, I'm unwilling to accept this as an argument for why they should be his paygrade. Per all available information, the dragons, greybeards and voice users, as well as mages across the board in Elder Scrolls, are ludicrously powerful, and just because this isn't necessarily represented explicitly in gameplay does nothing to change certain facts and events from being real. It's purely up to you whether you want to accept them or not, but to deny they exist at all is just willful ignorance.

I never said that every time you get into a fight in the game it's a life or death situation for the Dragonborn. I said that boss fights are supposed to show challenge because that's the whole point of them. I agree that texts depict Shouts as being very powerful, but the problem is that's contradicted by everything else. They're certainly powerful, but trailers, animations, dialogue and quests show they're not as powerful as you're making out.

Explain why the texts are "questionable" or stop talking.

I already have. They're historical texts, some with anonymous authors so we don't know the dates written compared to the events. Things could have been exaggerated for book form or been written later on and hyped up as a result. This would make sense because of the disparity of power levels of what we read about in the books compared to what we see in everything else. Unless I'm wrong and we know when the books were written relative to the events described, but even then what I've said makes sense and fits.

Another indication of this in-universe is the fact that everyone knew a dragon was being guarded by the Greybeards on High Hrothgar, but specifically because they were there, no armies were ever sent to kill Paarthurnax - even though the Blades and the Empire were trying to genocide the race of dragons.

I'm too tired to properly respond to this point now, but could you give a source for when I respond?

@lubub55: Regarding trailers.

This... Must be a joke.

If it's such a joke then you should be able to easily provide some form of evidence proving that the trailer represents the full, unbridled potential of the Dragonborn per Bethesda's wishes.

Why on Earth would Bethesda portray the protagonist of one of its games as weaker than he actually is? Surely if you're saying it's for marketing they'd make him appear more powerful. And it isn't even gameplay. You're reaching here and you know it.

Probably because being a minor god would make the game boring. But that's besides the point, because the trailer isn't canon, you are yet to prove it's canon, and you can't even prove that it's the Dragonborn at the height of his powers - it could well be the dragonborn at the start of the game, and that's if the trailer is canon.

Bandits aren't boss fights, making this another poor comparison.

Dragons aren't boss fights either, they're generic encounters. Way to not address any of the points made directly, as usual.

Both trailers and the game itself show one Dragon can give a fight.

Which you're yet to prove.

And using Alduin as proof to the contrary isn't very good evidence, because once again the Dragonborn had help in both fights.

The "help" was useless, and the victories were attributed entirely to the Dragonborn. It's quite literally fated that only he can defeat Alduin, and he doesn't need help to do it.

I never said it was "totally invalid", I said it's obviously less credible than historical writings which is true whether you want to admit it or not. Calling things you don't like non-canon, backtracking on your points after being proven wrong and debunking strawman arguments do not prove your point. It's common sense that cinematic trailers used to show off the character fit the developers' intentions. Trying to dismiss everything else and focus on in-game journals which aren't essential and are contradictory to the story and everything else we see is a flawed method.

Which sounds great and all, but you're wrong. The journal is "essential" in the same way Whiterun existing is essential. It's a part of the world, it happened. This shows me you have no idea what you're talking about.

When it isn't showing gameplay then it's clearly not trying to sell gameplay. I'm dumbfounded here. Like, what?

Not that this is integral to the point of whether or not the trailer is canon, which it isn't, but holy shit, what part of fighting a dragon do you not think is a blatant gameplay advertisement? That's potentially the biggest selling point of the entire game. You get to fight dragons. Ridiculous.

I've already shown you. See my first response to you. Ignoring it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just like all the trailers, animations and quests.

No, you haven't.

Worldbuilding is more than just in-game texts that people search through to find feats. Are you honestly trying to make the argument that Bethesda put less effort and manpower into their main trailers that are meant to get recognition for the game than they do with in-game texts that barely anyone reads?

I'm saying they serve different purposes. The trailer is an advertisement, a journal you find in the game is apart of the universe, it actually exists. The amount of effort put into each is irrelevant to how canon they are.

Saying foolish things without evidence is not an actual argument. Do you think Bethesda find it fun to make non-canon trailers which depict their protagonists as much weaker than they actually are? You're saying it isn't canon or representative without any basis other than a source contradicted by every other. I'd genuinely like to hear your explanation for this.

Yes, I think Bethesda are portraying the Dragonborn as much weaker than they really are in their trailers and when they give you quests to clear out bandits, but when they give you actual lore instead of advertisements and gameplay, it's clear to see how powerful he really is. The game wouldn't be fun if you could lolstomp 95% of the content.

Again, though, what I think and what you think is irrelevant to the reality that the trailer isn't canon, and you are struggling to provide a single shred of evidence that it is.

What's this? EVIDENCE??? Nicely done. I actually give you props for this. Congrats.

Christ.

Being integral to the story doesn't mean she needed to be there fighting alongside Dragonborn. If you're saying she wasn't needed and he wasn't a threat, then prove it. The burden of proof is on you considering she was canonically there. Theorising that she wasn't a factor isn't evidence.

Serana is "far less powerful" than her mother per her own admission, and her mother is scared shitless of Harkon. That's why it's your quest to kill him, just like it's your quest to kill Alduin. That's why everyone pats you on the back for killing these enemies. Nowhere is it said Serana was helpful or needed.

Regardless, you already conceded that Harkon can be immensely powerful, so even going by your logic he just scales up with the Dragonborn. And since you can't prove that Harkon is even a challenge other than regurgitating "b--b-b-b-b-b-but boss battle!!!", then this does not serve as a contradiction to the evidence I put forth.

Whether they use the title or not is irrelevant because it's the same character.

The same character who for all intents and purposes isn't Dragonborn, because he has never seen a dragon or shouted before? Cool man. Totes the same as the guy who killed Miraak and Alduin.

If you're sided with either Ulfric or Tullius in the Civil War it is mentioned in the peace talks at High Hrothgar.

Which brings me back to my point that these quests aren't necessarily difficult for the Dragonborn, even if he was the one to complete them. It's not a contradiction that TLD didn't just waltz up to Solitude and return Tullius in a bodybag, primarily because the TLD isn't a sociopath.

And saying that he can do it without yet being the Dragonborn furthers my point, and means that him being responsible for his side winning is more story based than anything.

I fail to see how it helps your point.

Well with Cicero I described him as an "annoyance" rather than an actual threat so in hindsight that was probably a bad example. In the context of the fight I think it was because of the surprise factor of him being able to fight when injured.

And like your whole post, this is yet more conjecture. Thanks for conceding that a jester with a knife isn't a challenge to a literal god.

I never said that every time you get into a fight in the game it's a life or death situation for the Dragonborn. I said that boss fights are supposed to show challenge because that's the whole point of them.

For gameplay.

I agree that texts depict Shouts as being very powerful, but the problem is that's contradicted by everything else. They're certainly powerful,

Yes they are, and no they aren't.

but trailers,

N-canon promo material.

animations,

N-canon gameplay mechanics.

dialogue

The Dragonborn losing a bar fight isn't canon or representative of their true potential, and to be honest, I'm impressed you managed to reach with such persistence that I actually had to say that out loud.

and quests

Quests which don't even necessitate TLD's involvement, and didn't necessarily even happen.

Unlike the main story and the DLC, which by necessity require the Dragonborn - and guess what, it's in those quests where his boss battles are comprised of ludicrously powerful opponents. But go on and keep insisting that unenhanced humans like Cicero, drunks in bars, stormcloaks and also randomly generated dragons are a great fight for TLD.

I already have.

I know you think that saying "but it's historical! that means it could be bad evidence!" is the pinnacle of critical thought, but in reality, you didn't even engage directly with the evidence to explain why it's wrong. I could say any form of evidence could suck, but that doesn't mean it actually sucks.

They're historical texts, some with anonymous authors so we don't know the dates written compared to the events.

Did you even read my post?

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/skorm-snow-striders-journal

It's a war journal. It has dates. It's an eyewitness account. Now explain what's wrong with this as a form of evidence, or stop talking.

Things could have been exaggerated for book form or been written later on and hyped up as a result.

And what makes you think that an eye-witness account of an event and the viewpoint of sceptical historians is one we should penalise for being exaggerated, even though neither party has any motivation to exaggerate anything? Do you think someone wrote a fake journal for fun and that journal, by pure coincidence, corroborates two other sources, one of which lists the names of the Shouters in question, doing exactly the same thing - that is using their Voice to siege cities?

Is it a coincidence that a third source depicts the Voice as a weapon used for sieging cities?

Hjalti was a shrewd tactician, and his small band of Colovian troops and Nord berserkers broke the Reachman line, forcing them back beyond the gates of Old Hrol'dan. A siege seemed impossible, as Hjalti could expect no reinforcements from Falkreath. That night a storm came and visited Hjalti's camp. It spoke with him in his tent. At dawn, Hjalti went up to the gates, and the storm followed just above his head. Arrows could not penetrate the winds around him. He shouted down the walls of Old Hrol'dan, and his men poured in. After their victory, the Nords called Hjalti Talos, or Stormcrown.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/arcturian-heresy

And finally, is it mere coincidence that Bethesda included a total of four unique sources in their game depicting the Voice as a weapon for destroying city walls? Were they doing that to tell us the Voice is too weak to do that? Or perhaps they were building the world?

Like, I just don't get it. Putting your fingers in your ears and regurgitating "but historical texts can be inaccurate. "but historical texts can be inaccurate, "but historical texts can be inaccurate, "but historical texts can be inaccurate" is not even close to representing critical thought. You aren't even directly quoting or offering a refutation to any specific piece of evidence. It's totally asinine and not worth wasting any more time on. How something this simple can continue to go over your head is beyond me.

This would make sense because of the disparity of power levels of what we read about in the books compared to what we see in everything else. Unless I'm wrong and we know when the books were written relative to the events described, but even then what I've said makes sense and fits.

To summarise, your great examples for contradicting these sources are:

• The Dragonborn with no powers being challenged by a random, likely weak dragon at the beginning of the game
• Random, generic dragons appearing during gameplay and being killed with unknown levels of ease
• An n-canon trailer
• Losing optional bar fights
• Gameplay mechanic animations of the player dying
• The Dragonborn not choosing to level Solitude and return Tullius' head on a platter
• Cicero being an enemy you can fight

Sorry, but saying "everything else contradicts" ad nauseum doesn't actually mean "everything" - it just means the flimsy evidence you spent 2 minutes piecing together while scratching your ass.

I'm too tired to properly respond to this point now, but could you give a source for when I respond?

Here:

Paarthurnax - The legendary lieutenant of Alduin in the Dragon War. He is now known to lair on the Throat of the World under the protection of the Greybeards of High Hrothgar. Master Araidh continues the established policy of avoiding direct confrontation with the Greybeards while waiting for an opportunity to exact justice upon him.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/atlas-dragons

Dragonborn

What's that even based on?

Dragonborn would solo the GoT verse with just a few shouts honestly. Giving him access to all of them makes this a mismatch.

Pretty much the only difference I see is normal dragons can be felled with conventional weapons, but their raw power can be well in excess of the GoT dragons. They're also way more intelligent and versatile with their magic.

For instance, Durnehviir would lolstomp these three. Alduin, not even worth entertaining that kind of heresy. Paarthurnax would absolutely obliterate them too.

The Riverwood chicken beats them all

Ends in sex ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Alright...who voted for Daenerys?

Can they be felled with normal weapons though? I mean, as far as I can tell, magic in Elder Scrolls seems to be pretty damn common...

The hell? TLD kills two of the dragons with an arrow each then Bend wills the last one to devour Daenerys herself.

Add in all her Dothraki army and he still stomps.

Only the more outlandish parts of the lore depict dragons as laughing off conventional weapons. They are able to be killed with swords and arrows in enough quantity and in the right places, I'm guessing between scales. The Whiterun guards didn't have any magic save for Irileth possibly using lightning spells like she does in gameplay.

It's ambiguous overall. But the thing is, dragons are more or less like mages, and Shouting is just verbal magic. So there's no reason to think a particularly gifted dragon can't turn away conventional weapons easily like most mages do, which is I suspect why some dragons are reported as wiping out entire armies and cities single handedly. The tales themselves may be outlandish but are likely rooted in some truth.

@i_like_swords:

They are able to be killed with swords and arrows in enough quantity and in the right places, I'm guessing between scales.

That actually seems kind of weird to be honest. I mean, it's hard enough to take down something like a rhino with nothing but bows and swords. Much less a giant fire breathing dragon. Are average humans in Elder Scrolls just stronger than RL humans?