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#1 Edited by TheAmazingYOLO (615 posts) - - Show Bio
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RULES

The Doctor is morals off

The stars are aligned; Cthulhu is fully awoken

Limited prior knowledge for both sides (i.e. The Doctor knows that a dark, ancient interdimensional monster is stirring)

No outside interference

The Doctor starts with standard equipment but can go get other equipment within reason

Cthulhu is actively hunting The Doctor

The Doctor is full Dark Doctor (imagine him watching all of his companions being tortured and killed in front of him and he thinks Cthulhu is responsible)

Win by any means necessary

Scenario 1:

The Doctor gets no prep

Scenario 2:

The Doctor gets 1 day of prep starting before Cthulhu fully awakens

*EDIT* Due to the majority of people thinking this is a stomp in the Doctor's favour, I'm adding Pennywise in to help Cthulhu in the second round (Pennywise has book and movie feats). Perfect teamwork between the team and the Doctor has to find a way to either kill Pennywise's interdimensional form or prevent him from ever returning to our reality to win.

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5b2dd32201ad6 (2795 posts) - - Show Bio

He's beaten people like Sutekh with very little prep who is arguably Galactus level.

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#3 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

The Doctor is full Dark Doctor (imagine him watching all of his companions being tortured and killed in front of him and he thinks Cthulhu is responsible)

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There is only one conclusion here knowing the doctor will now take all gloves off and go full ends justify all means...

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#4 Posted by TheAmazingYOLO (615 posts) - - Show Bio

I see very mixed opinions on Cthulhu on the battle forums... some people claim he gets KOed by a steam boat while others claim that at full power he exists beyond time, space and the universe. Not to mention he apparently has very powerful telepathy.

I made this battle with the higher-end Cthulhu feats in mind. Are there any Lovecraft fans around who want to argue for Cthulhu?

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#5 Posted by tj849 (8569 posts) - - Show Bio

The Doctor stomps both scenarios

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#6 Posted by Warai_MizuKiQi (69 posts) - - Show Bio

Yaa,

Without preptime I don't really know, if Cthulhu isn't in a weakened state it won't be an easy battle. Maybe the doctor could outsmart him but not without a big price to pay at the end. So maybe a stalemate or the doctor gets a narrow victory and has to regenerate after. With prep I see a win for the doctor.

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#7 Edited by God_of_Batman (1803 posts) - - Show Bio

The stars are aligned? The Doctor burns up stars to make a phone call.

@theamazingyolo said:

The Doctor is full Dark Doctor (imagine him watching all of his companions being tortured and killed in front of him and he thinks Cthulhu is responsible)

And what? An in character Doctor could take down the over-sized octopus in less than one episode. A full blown Dark Doctor... Hell, he could simply cross his own time stream a million times over and use hte combined power of a million TARDIS's to destroy the entire God damn multiverse.

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5bb6a6f86dc65 (4972 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off Doctor curbstomps, he's beyond universal.

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#10 Edited by Royal_Warrior (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

Cthulhu is impressive

He's not even country level in lovecraft

Just in some fanmade stories he's OP

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#11 Posted by captain_inverse (2354 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_of_batman: in all fairness, David Tennet was a brutal/arrogant doctor, he didn't take !$#* from anyone.

When the family of blood went after Martha, he timelocked them all for eternity. Then other episodes like the girl in the fireplace or Waters of Mars where he just wants to show off and doesn't care about the consequences.

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#12 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16800 posts) - - Show Bio

I see very mixed opinions on Cthulhu on the battle forums... some people claim he gets KOed by a steam boat while others claim that at full power he exists beyond time, space and the universe. Not to mention he apparently has very powerful telepathy.

I made this battle with the higher-end Cthulhu feats in mind. Are there any Lovecraft fans around who want to argue for Cthulhu?

It'd be impossible to make a case for Cthulhu against the Doctor under such stipulations, honestly.

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#13 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio

The Doctor.

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#14 Edited by TheAmazingYOLO (615 posts) - - Show Bio

EDIT

Added Pennywise to Scenario 2; check OP

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#15 Posted by ProteusXManRxis (4446 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Yuber (350 posts) - - Show Bio

What is this, a discussion for ants?!

To even try to comprehend what Cthulhu even is, is beyond mortal comprehension.

Cthulhu exists in our world and beyond, at the same time. This isn't your every day Thor or Hulk fight, this is way beyond what you lads and ladettes might think.

This is Cthulhu, a being that exists in between. A part of him rests at R'lyeh, better described by Lovecraft himself:

"The nightmare corpse-city of R'lyeh…was built in measureless eons behind history by the vast, loathsome shapes that seeped down from the dark stars. There lay great Cthulhu and his hordes, hidden in green slimy vaults."

This cosmic being, stated by Lovecraft himself to be beyond mortal comprehension, does not live nor die. He simply exists and will continue to exist until the day come where he will herald the end times, and his kind will again rule all.

The Doctor, who is not beyond mortal comprehension is not in any way even remotely capable of harming Cthulhu. Even gazing upon his glory would drive the fragile mind of Doctor Who to pieces - and he would soon find himself at the mercy of the god that rests.

One might argue that the Doctor also functions at a grander scale, but in comparison - he is but a Silver Surfer to the mighty Galactus. A peon. A pawn. A mind to be bent and broken by Cthulhu. What is dead, may never die.

"In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming"

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#23 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Doctor curbstomps this. A Morals Off Doctor is beyond an universal level threat. Crossing timestreams, The Moment, whatever he does he's winning. (Can you tell from my username and profile pic that I'm also a bit biased?) ;)

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#24 Posted by Yuber (350 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Doesn't matter. There's nothing the Doctor can do that will hurt Cthulhu.

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#25 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio
@yuber said:

@jsdoctor: Doesn't matter. There's nothing the Doctor can do that will hurt Cthulhu.

So crossing him timestream an infinite number of times and destroying all of existence before Cthulhu notices him won't hurt him? We're not talking about the universe here, or even the multiverse. We're talking about everything that every was, is, will be or could be. Morals on, this could be a fair fight. Morals off Dark Doctor? I pity Cthulhu.

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#26 Posted by Yuber (350 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor:

It doesn't matter because of one simple line, as stated above: Cthulhu's very existence is beyond our comprehension. That means that we cannot even hope to fathom how he can be destroyed. We can grasp and comprehend how the doctor functions, thus he is beneath what we cannot understand or even hope to understand. Argue if you want to, but this one goes to Cthulhu.

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#27 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2640 posts) - - Show Bio

@yuber: That isn't a feat, it's an interpretation of a character from a readers point of view. The Doctor stomps.

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#28 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@yuber said:

@jsdoctor:

It doesn't matter because of one simple line, as stated above: Cthulhu's very existence is beyond our comprehension. That means that we cannot even hope to fathom how he can be destroyed. We can grasp and comprehend how the doctor functions, thus he is beneath what we cannot understand or even hope to understand. Argue if you want to, but this one goes to Cthulhu.

Sure, his existence is beyond our comprehension. But there are three responses to that:

1. That doesn't mean he's beyond the Doctor's comprehension. We don't understand him, sure, but the Doctor's intellect is impossibly superior.

2. You don't need to understand something's existence to destroy it.

3. (Most importantly:) "Cthulhu's very existence." He exists. It doesn't matter how, whether we understand it or even whether the Doctor understands it. If everything is destroyed. Not on a universal level, or even multiversal, but beyond omniversal, then however Cthulhu exists/was created/could be destroyed doesn't matter. He isn't being destroyed in the traditional sense, he's being absolutely erased. His existence doesn't even matter, and will never have mattered. It will be as if the entire omniverse+ was never there. What makes you think Cthulhu could survive that?

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#29 Posted by Morpheus_ (34488 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure the Doctor can find a boat and win this, since that is basically what it takes.

Online
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#30 Edited by Yuber (350 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor:

Well said. Your skill in rhetoric is admirable.

Still, we have to take what Lovecraft himself has told of Cthulhu to discuss the matter at hand - and Lovecraft tells us that:

These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape — for did not this star-fashioned image prove it? — but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die...

“They worshipped, so they said, the Great Old Ones who lived ages before there were any men, and who came to the young world out of the sky. Those Old Ones were gone now, inside the earth and under the sea; but their dead bodies had told their secrets in dreams to the first men, who formed a cult which had never died. This was that cult, and the prisoners said it had always existed and always would exist, hidden in distant wastes and dark places all over the world until the time when the great priest Cthulhu, from his dark house in the mighty city of R'lyeh under the waters, should rise and bring the earth again beneath his sway.”

“Children will always be afraid of the dark, and men with minds sensitive to hereditary impulse will always tremble at the thought of the hidden and fathomless worlds of strange life which may pulsate in the gulfs beyond the stars, or press hideously upon our own globe in unholy dimensions which only the dead and the moonstruck can glimpse.”

- Lovecraft

Cthulhu is a being that is dead and alive - he functions between what is real and what is not real. Even if the universe, multiverse or any -verse beyond our own comprehension did or did not exist, there still would be Cthulhu.

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#31 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2640 posts) - - Show Bio

@yuber: Show me feats for Cthulhu, not character statements.

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#32 Edited by Yuber (350 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizensurfer said:

@yuber: Show me feats for Cthulhu, not character statements.

Feats from a 1926 short story? This isn't a comic book, good sir. Character statements are all we have. I'm ignoring fanfiction here. Based on what Lovecraft does say about Cthulhu, he's far too much for the good Doctor Tim the Toolman to handle.

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#33 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@yuber said:

@jsdoctor:

Well said. Your skill in rhetoric is admirable.

Still, we have to take what Lovecraft himself has told of Cthulhu to discuss the matter at hand - and Lovecraft tells us that:

These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape — for did not this star-fashioned image prove it? — but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die...

“They worshipped, so they said, the Great Old Ones who lived ages before there were any men, and who came to the young world out of the sky. Those Old Ones were gone now, inside the earth and under the sea; but their dead bodies had told their secrets in dreams to the first men, who formed a cult which had never died. This was that cult, and the prisoners said it had always existed and always would exist, hidden in distant wastes and dark places all over the world until the time when the great priest Cthulhu, from his dark house in the mighty city of R'lyeh under the waters, should rise and bring the earth again beneath his sway.”

“Children will always be afraid of the dark, and men with minds sensitive to hereditary impulse will always tremble at the thought of the hidden and fathomless worlds of strange life which may pulsate in the gulfs beyond the stars, or press hideously upon our own globe in unholy dimensions which only the dead and the moonstruck can glimpse.”

- Lovecraft

Cthulhu is a being that is dead and alive - he functions between what is real and what is not real. Even if the universe, multiverse or any -verse beyond our own comprehension did or did not exist, there still would be Cthulhu.

First of all, thank you very much for the compliment. Though I feel like what I wrote starts to look pathetic when you bring out the Lovecraft. :)

The only way that Cthulhu is continuing to exist would be if he was literal God-tier. As in, Marvel's One Above All. I'm not completely sure what to make of the whole dead/alive situation, except for the fact that Cthulhu doesn't live when the stars are wrong, and the Doctor has been shown to be able to destroy stars on a whim. So this would stop Cthulhu from being alive, but he wouldn't be dead either. I don't know if this counts as a win for the Doctor, but I'd say it probably does.

And I don't know how literally to take this if it's simply the description of Cthulhu from another character.

Also (and it's been a while since I read it so forgive me if I'm wrong,) wasn't Cthulhu KO'd by someone driving a boat into his head? If so, the Doctor can definitely just fly the TARDIS into his head and KO him, which counts as a win by CV rules. I'm enjoying this cosmic level conversation, but I'm not even sure if it's relevant given that Cthulhu was temporarily beaten by a guy with a boat.

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#34 Edited by CitizenSurfer (2640 posts) - - Show Bio

@yuber: So you're basing your argument off of statements, which mean diddly squat in comparison to actual feats..

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#35 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@yuber said:
@citizensurfer said:

@yuber: Show me feats for Cthulhu, not character statements.

Feats from a 1926 short story? This isn't a comic book, good sir. Character statements are all we have. I'm ignoring fanfiction here. Based on what Lovecraft does say about Cthulhu, he's far too much for the good Doctor Tim the Toolman to handle.

Mate, do you even watch Doctor Who? Because if you don't I really can't take anything you say here seriously.

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#36 Edited by Yuber (350 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor said:

First of all, thank you very much for the compliment. Though I feel like what I wrote starts to look pathetic when you bring out the Lovecraft. :)

The only way that Cthulhu is continuing to exist would be if he was literal God-tier. As in, Marvel's One Above All. I'm not completely sure what to make of the whole dead/alive situation, except for the fact that Cthulhu doesn't live when the stars are wrong, and the Doctor has been shown to be able to destroy stars on a whim. So this would stop Cthulhu from being alive, but he wouldn't be dead either. I don't know if this counts as a win for the Doctor, but I'd say it probably does.

And I don't know how literally to take this if it's simply the description of Cthulhu from another character.

Also (and it's been a while since I read it so forgive me if I'm wrong,) wasn't Cthulhu KO'd by someone driving a boat into his head? If so, the Doctor can definitely just fly the TARDIS into his head and KO him, which counts as a win by CV rules. I'm enjoying this cosmic level conversation, but I'm not even sure if it's relevant given that Cthulhu was temporarily beaten by a guy with a boat.

Well argued.

This depends on what Lovecraft actually means with the phrase "when the stars align". Does this mean that a certain set of stars must align for Cthulhu to awake from his death/slumber? Or does it mean that "when the time is right" or "when a certain/specific situation arises"?

It's hard to say from the limited knowledge we do have about Lovecraft's Cthulhu.

It is also true that the description of Cthulhu is hard to differenciate from Lovecraft himself, the narrator or a character within the Lovecraftian universe.

Well, you're not entirely wrong per se., but you're not correct either. The problem with short stories or fiction, is that we can't simply post pictures or feats to determine a creature/beings powers or abilities. It's all up to interpretation, which perhaps makes the whole discussion folly in the first place. But it's still interesting to discuss either way - because rumors and previous statements can be faulty, like the boat incident with Cthulhu.

Johanson, the Norwegian character in Call of Cthulhu does in fact ram a Yacht into some larger beings head as he tries to escape. What most people leave out though, is that the attempt at killing the creature failed - and the creature regenerates rapidly afterwards; leaving the attempt futile.

What is interesting though, is that it is never stated anywhere that this was Cthulhu himself. The description of the being isn't entirely similar, where many a Lovecraftianarian has argued that this is simply a Shoggoth, the "builders" in the Cthulhu mythos. They can be interpreted as quite similar to Cthulhu - but the description of the creature in Call of Cthulhu is more akin to the Shoggoth than Cthulhu himself in the boat-scene.

Furthermore, the creature Johanson attacks with the Yacht is the result of a failed summoning by a then deceased group of cultists. This is important to note, because that means if the creature was in fact Cthulhu, it wasn't "even his final form". What differenciates a full fledged Cthulhu and a partly-summoned Cthulhu - or even just a Shoggoth?

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#37 Edited by GentlemanTopHat (1050 posts) - - Show Bio

@yuber said:
@citizensurfer said:

@yuber: Show me feats for Cthulhu, not character statements.

Feats from a 1926 short story? This isn't a comic book, good sir. Character statements are all we have. I'm ignoring fanfiction here. Based on what Lovecraft does say about Cthulhu, he's far too much for the good Doctor Tim the Toolman to handle.

You are underestimating The Doctor you have no idea how dangerous he can be and he has beaten god like cosmic entities before like The Black Guardian who is the embodiment of all the Evil, Darkness, and Chaos in The Doctor Who universe and has also beaten the Devil and since The Doctor's morals are off he would be capable of anything like using The Heart of the TARDIS which would give him the power to erase Cthulhu from existence.

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#38 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@yuber: You're absolutely correct in that it's much more difficult to interpret prose than images. Given that we have, as you have pointed out, such limited knowledge, it's very difficult to make arguments either for or against Cthulhu.

To summarise what we know: He exists between life and death. He may/may not only be able to live when the stars are aligned correctly (in a literal sense.) He may/may not have been knocked out by a boat. We know practically nothing about what the real, fully formed Cthulhu is capable of.

Given the inherent ambiguity of Lovecraft's tale, it's very difficult to accurately predict the outcome of this battle either way. What I would say is that, going by what we do definitively know, the Doctor should take this via destroying stars/destroying everything (literally everything)/ramming a boat into Cthulhu's head. At least one of the above should work. Particularly when we remember that even a temporary knockout technically counts as a win, and destroying everything should harm Cthulhu.

But we don't have feats, or evidence, or anything like that, which makes it very difficult to determine what it takes to beat Cthulhu. Nevertheless, I don't think that there's any way for Cthulhu to beat the Doctor.

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#39 Posted by OrdinaryAlan (6717 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol at Cthulhu beating The Doctor.

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#40 Edited by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

The Doctor wins both rounds.

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#41 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2640 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by JwwProd (20864 posts) - - Show Bio
@yuber said:
@citizensurfer said:

@yuber: Show me feats for Cthulhu, not character statements.

Feats from a 1926 short story? This isn't a comic book, good sir. Character statements are all we have. I'm ignoring fanfiction here. Based on what Lovecraft does say about Cthulhu, he's far too much for the good Doctor Tim the Toolman to handle.

You don't have to be a comicbook character to have feats.

There are plenty of Novel characters that have actual feats, The Culture have plenty of feats to prove they are as powerful as people say they are and the Culture is also a novel faction.

And most of the high tier Dr Who feats are from novels and Big Finish audio stories anyways.

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#43 Edited by PenguinLover (994 posts) - - Show Bio

The Doctor pretty much stomps. The Tenth Doctor was willing and able to break the laws of time themselves and defy nature itself simply to save some humans he'd known for a few hours at best. Imagine what he'd do if faced with all of his companions being killed around him. Hell, he's already shown enough ability to construct a device capable of wiping out all life on Earth (several thousand miles away) in just 22 minutes. All he really needs to do is absorb the heart of the TARDIS, something which Rose, who had little to no experience with the TARDIS, was able to use to disintegrate an entire fleet of one of the most powerful races in the show, manipulate time, and resurrect Captain Jack and consequently make him immortal.

For the record, just as a side note the Tenth Doctor defeated a being older than the universe itself and implied to be the inspiration for the Devil (the Beast), not once but twice. Just as an example, he was able to find a way to destroy a monster durable enough to survive having the human host containing its mind and its own body pushed through the event horizon of a black hole, and I doubt either Cthulhu or Pennywise have much on that.

The Doctor simply has far too many resources and advantages over Cthulhu, who from what I can recall has little to no combat feats. Based on this, even with Pennywise the Lonely God virtually stomps both rounds, especially if it's the Tenth, Eleventh or Twelfth Doctors.

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#46 Posted by Lucano (3453 posts) - - Show Bio

Then again, Lovecraft did not write his characters thinking on power levels, but actually on how to produce horror, due to the time, it was on a very small scale, but by implied power and the absolute impossibility for the human race to even begin to understand the Great Old Ones, let alone the Outer Gods, plus some of the descriptions and stories actually depcit them as existing outside our dimension at least, is why they are regarded so highly.

They lack feats? Yes.

Their author wanted to be beyond all comprehension? Yes.

Are they ridiculously powerful? Yes, they warp reality and actually have some stupid TP feats even within Lovecraft's stories, so it is not a stretch that beings like Cthulhu are in fact galactic+ level.

But again, these characters were not created for a "battle forum", they are horror stories living "Deux ex machinas".

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#47 Posted by Bluejay4 (4037 posts) - - Show Bio

@penguinlover: To be fair, really anyone could have beaten the Beast if they knew what to do. All the Doctor had to do was break a vase, and that's what caused the Beast to plummet to its destruction.

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#48 Posted by CitizenSurfer (2640 posts) - - Show Bio

@bluejay4:

To be fair, really anyone could have beaten the Beast if they knew what to do. All the Doctor had to do was break a vase, and that's what caused the Beast to plummet to its destruction.

No dude, they couldn't have. No-one in that episode would've survived against the Ood let alone against "The Devil" if it weren't for The Doctor.

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#49 Edited by PenguinLover (994 posts) - - Show Bio

@bluejay4: Maybe they could have destroyed the vases to send the Beast into the black hole, but I doubt they would have been able to avoid the Ood and figure out exactly what the text on the walls said when even the TARDIS’s telepathic circuits couldn’t translate the language.

Besides which, I was referring more to their second encounter in a later comic, where the Beast is revealed to have survived the event horizon of a black hole. These stories are written by professional DW writers and the BBC has never declared them to be non-canon, so for argument’s sake I’m going to assume that they are canon. Anyway, this one in particular has the Doctor outsmarting a being implied to be older than the universe itself and find a way to kill it or at the very least imprison it. If he was able to do this with virtually no prep, I can imagine doing something similar with Cthulhu and Pennywise isn’t out of the question.

Just another bit of trivia about the Beast though: its son Abaddon was imprisoned in the Void because of it being too powerful to contain and when it arrived in Cardiff it could kill humans and leave Captain Jack dead for days (a guy who who literally can not die, so harming him to the point that it took days before he was resurrected is extremely impressive) with its shadow alone. Again, this is the son of a primordial entity, one which has shown the ability to allow its hosts to survive indefinitely in the vacuum of space, possess countless Oods simultaneously, may or may not have survived the event horizon of a black hole and may or may not have shown the ability to travel across space and time without outside assistance.

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#50 Edited by Bluejay4 (4037 posts) - - Show Bio

@penguinlover: Do you know the name of the comic? I want to check it out.