The Confederacy of Independant Systems (Star Wars) in the Warhammer 40K galaxy

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ParagonNate

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#1  Edited By ParagonNate

The CIS, with all it's holding and troops is plopped on the outer edge of the Warhammer 40K galaxy, right next to the Tau Empire on the outermost edge of the galaxy. How does this impact the Warhammer 40K galaxy? Will the CIS be steamrolled by the various factions? Or will they carve out territories of their own?

R1: Disney canon

R2: Legends canon

That's a lot of Clankers
That's a lot of Clankers
Many much ships
Many much ships

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ParagonNate

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decaf_wizard

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These guys are the same level of fodder as a minor Xenos race. Just with greater numbers

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decaf_wizard

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They would probably still beat the Tau though. Better spacetravel, better numbers and battle droids would probably still beat Fire Cast warriors in melee

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deactivated-5bb7f2e29af78

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@decaf_wizard said:

They would probably still beat the Tau though. Better spacetravel, better numbers and battle droids would probably still beat Fire Cast warriors in melee

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Wut

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Do they already have hyperspace lanes figured out?

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FullMetalEmprah

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@decaf_wizard: The Tau defeated a Tyranid invasion, even if it was just a splinter of a hive fleet, so it's debatable that they even take over the Tau. Actually the Tau's tech would work wonders against the CIS, considering their strategies are even more revolved around mass charges than the Imperium, and I doubt a lot of droids could tank pulse rifles.

I honestly think it depends on how much territory you give them to start with. They have amazing industry so if you give them a decent amount of planets to start with I think they can probably at least be a thorn in the major powers' sides. That being I doubt they'd go beyond a nuisance unless they accrued a massive amount of territory somehow.

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ParagonNate

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@wut: I transported the territory they already had during the Clone Wars, and they already had that mapped out so I'd say they have their territory mapped but nothing outside of that.

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Wut

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@paragonnate: So... lol they couldn't invade anyone if they wanted to. Takes a long time to map out hyperspace lanes. We are looking at a very, very, very long isolation period as the Tau just discovered wormhole travel [Because why not? Because the Tau are babied by the plot anyways, so lets give them more!] although they can't recreate it quite yet, so their standard FTL method is still very slow so it would be some time before they stumbled on another.

Hard to say what the CIS would look like in a hundred years of nothing.

@fullmetalemprah: The Tau couldn't beat Hive Fleet Gorgon. They needed a Necron Tombworld to wipe out a good portion of Gorgon and stop them from spreading and an Imperial Fleet to finish them off.

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Outside_85

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Unless the CIS makes new friends in a hurry, I think they will get smashed.

@wut said:

@fullmetalemprah: The Tau couldn't beat Hive Fleet Gorgon. They needed a Necron Tombworld to wipe out a good portion of Gorgon and stop them from spreading and an Imperial Fleet to finish them off.

However, as you point out... that tombworld is also going to be in the CIS's vicinity, along with Ultramar, the usual entrance point for the Hive Fleets and the usual swarm of orks that seems to be everywhere... and isn't there a craft-world down in that area as well?

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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The biggest factor for the CIS is numbers, if its legends they can carve out a tiny empire, but they aint growing too large cause the IoM is gonna rekt them

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Wut

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#12  Edited By Wut

@outside_85: The Ultramarines and Imperium in that region are busy, they can't even must enough forces to tell the Tau to bugger off and that was before the galaxy was split in half by the Eye of Terror expanding and daemon primarchs came out to play again. The CIS who won't be able to go outside their boundaries for a very long time as they slowly map out new hyperspace lanes aren't going to be a priority.

Craftworld Eldar don't go around beating people up with no cause. Its more likely they ignore the CIS unless they need them for some prophecy or another and if the Craftworld Eldar don't want the CIS to know they are there, then they won't know they are there.

Necrons tend to be the old men saying, 'Stay off my Lawn'. They only killed the tau colony and large gorgon fleet because they were on their lawn. If that Tomb World was aggressive, the Tau would have a much worse problem then Gorgon.

Not really? Hive Fleets come from anywhere on the galactic plane:

No Caption Provided

The last hive fleet to hit that side was Gorgon which the Necrons and Imperium dealt with while the Tau cheered them on. The last, and most dangerous fleet [That we know of, some more came in but we don't know from where just that the Imperium was hit by them], was Leviathan [on the other side of the galaxy], and they don't tend to hit right after another, so it isn't like the CIS are likely to be hit by a sudden new Hive Fleet.

Orks are everywhere, however, the CIS are strong enough [If using higher end Legends] to not get pestered by them unless its a massive WAAAGH which is unlikely. So they are as annoying to them as they are the Tau.

So, yeah, century+ of isolation [Rabble here and then of Orks isn't something I'd consider noteworthy].

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Outside_85

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@wut: Ah, they seem to have updated the map since the last time I saw one, back then the Hive Fleets were all coming into roughly the same area of the galactic south, while the Tau Empire and Ultramar was sort of South-East'ish.

Tbh I wouldn't hold out hope for the CIS if a decent sized Ork fleet decided to pay them a visit. Since if the Orks manage to make planetfall and remain there for any length of time, you might as well consider the world infested and you can get to spend centuries clearing them out again... that is if the theory of Orks being like a fungus is still in tact.

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FullMetalEmprah

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@wut: Yeah, that's why I said a splinter, not a full force of the, but the Tyranids were a bigger counter to the Tau than the CIS would be. The Tau would be able to employ their favored strategies to greater effect against the droids since they'd fight more like a conventional enemy.

Either way since the OP states they have no lanes outside their territory mapped I'd say they find the Tau since they are right next to them, and with all their territory from the Clone Wars Legends CIS destroys the Tau and Canon CIS might as well, just by sheer industry. Either way they lose a lot of droids in the attempt. They'd become a strong regional power but not much for the major players in the setting.

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Wut

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@outside_85:Map has really changed with 8e.

No Caption Provided

All those black spots are Warpstorms. The Eye of Terror has cut the galaxy in half. Lol why I said the Imperium is way too busy to care about the CIS atm.

That is still a thing, but it isn't too bad. Many Imperium worlds have Orks on them as well as people. They often become Feral Orks and aren't too bad as long as they are culled here and there.

Although, yeah, a Thraka size WAAAGH will wipe the Tau/CIS out, but I'd give them good odds of that not happening.

@fullmetalemprah: Canon CIS can't beat the Tau. Their naval firepower is far too low to do anything but die in space where it doesn't matter how many droids you have.

Legend CIS is the only one really worth looking at.

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FullMetalEmprah

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@outside_85: It's still the same with Orks for the most part. That being said I think the CIS wouldn't have too much trouble with the Orks unless someone like Thraka somehow decides to pay a visit. If anything they'd design a new droid series in their long isolation to combat this. And it's not like they'll run out of droids despite the lingering Orks on the planet. If anything it's just things to test their weapons on.

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FullMetalEmprah

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@wut: The CIS have some things that will be a problem for the Tau, notably General Grievous assassinating Ethereals. If he got free reign it ends pretty quick, the Tau go insane when that kind of thing happens.

Actually, Legends Grievous vs a bunch of stealth suits is a battle I had no idea I wanted to see until now lol.

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Turr

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The CIS has plenty of MVP's and an army Warhammer 40k has never seen. General Grievous, unrivaled in strategy and personal combat against all but strongest jedi. Palpatine, an army buster who can easily control both sides of the war without anyone even knowing. Ventress, an assassin who could take down a government overnight if it wasnt for strongest of the jedi getting in her way. Dooku, a master tactician and diplomat skilled enough to gather thousands of systems under his wing just with wits and terror. Billions of droids and ships at their disposal. They would stomp verse. The only thing holding them back to lolstomping entire SW galaxy was a deus ex machina clone army that suddenly popped in Republic's corner and sick amount of jedi leading almost all Republic operations on all fronts. Warhammer can not possibly hope to repeat that repeal.

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Wut

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@fullmetalemprah: And how is Grievous to assassinate an Ethereal? On those CIS ships that don't get close to Tau planets because they were turned to space debris? By hoping the Tau bother to fight a land war in the first place after destroying all their ships and hoping they brought an Ethereal along with them and pray even more that the Ethereal deigns to join the ground campaign?

How is Canon Grievous going to do all this? Canon Grievous isn't all that impressive. Canon Grievous isn't going to want to get on the bad end of a Riptide.

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Outside_85

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@outside_85: It's still the same with Orks for the most part. That being said I think the CIS wouldn't have too much trouble with the Orks unless someone like Thraka somehow decides to pay a visit. If anything they'd design a new droid series in their long isolation to combat this. And it's not like they'll run out of droids despite the lingering Orks on the planet. If anything it's just things to test their weapons on.

True, but bear in mind they need to replace and rebuil after every encounter and even if they have several planets, supplies may run out sooner than later when the Orks can use the droids for scrap, weapons and armor.

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ParagonNate

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@wut: Depends on how they go about mapping the lanes, they have nigh uncountable expendable droids and smaller ships. I'd say that out of all the Star Wars factions the CIS would be able to map them the fastest. And without Sidious around forcing them to carry the idiot ball they'll be free to actually use their immense industrial advantage on their neighbors.

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ParagonNate

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@wut: Also, with their own territory already mapped it makes them a pain to invade, given their ability to gather and move their fleets and armies about with speed that no other conventional 40k force can match.

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Wut

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@paragonnate: The Eldar and Necrons are faster. XD But, again, luckily, the Eldar are likely to ignore them [Dark Eldar may take some as slaves, but that is normal] and as long as they stay away from the Necron's lawn, they won't care.

Save for such droids being common in Star Wars for a long time and yet hyperspace lanes are still discovered at a snails pace. Droids are cheap. Hyperdrives are not.

And unless the Canon ships, literally, try to drown a Tau ship with 50-100 to 1 odds, the Tau ships turn them into space debris. [Although, canon CIS ships would have more luck ramming the Tau ships then shooting at them because the firepower difference is that large].

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ParagonNate

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@wut: There's a Legends round too

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Wut

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@paragonnate: Yeah, but Full was discussing how canon CIS could contend.. at all. But they can't. Once anything noteworthy finds them, they're dead.

With no hyperspace lanes in place, the CIS are looking at an extreme period of isolation making discussing what happens... rather.. pointless as we have no idea how the CIS would grow and develop with decades to centuries of isolation with only the occasional Orks and Dark Eldar raids [which will probably take some time to figure out who is even doing that] to break up the silence. Their war economy and war industry is likely to be vastly different then what it was before.

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FullMetalEmprah

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#26  Edited By FullMetalEmprah

@wut: I'm talking about Legends Grievous who would tear apart an Ethereal or Tau commander, not that coughing failure that is Canon Grievous. He doesn't need to use a large fleet, he can use smaller ships to infiltrate the planet's defenses. And if the Separatists have the likes of Dooku as well then it becomes even easier. Granted I still think the Tau win.

As far as Legends is concerned the sheer number of ships the CIS have is going to be difficult for the Tau, and it's not like the CIS have poor ship quality or anything, Providence-classes and ships on that level are actually quite good, at least good enough and in sufficient numbers to face something like the Tau Empire. if I recall their navy would be quite small in comparison and space is the area the CIS are closest to the Tau in. On the ground they get completely slaughtered if it gets that far. And I bring that up because if the CIS do get creamed in space, the Tau will most likely take the chance to embark on another expansion into their territory, which means there would be ground battles either way.

Will concede Canon not standing a chance though.

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Wut

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@fullmetalemprah: I'm talking about Legends Grievous who would tear apart an Ethereal or Tau commander, not that coughing failure that is Canon Grievous. He doesn't need to use a large fleet, he can use smaller ships to infiltrate the planet's defenses. And if the Separatists have the likes of Dooku as well then it becomes even easier. Granted I still think the Tau win.

Tau sensors aren't Star Wars sensors. There is a reason the Orks jacked a Tau ship and then used that to sneak onto a Tau station. Because the Tau don't 'miss' small ships because their sensors fail for nonsensical reasons. Getting into a pod sized ship =/= stealth.

Grievous trying to do something like that by himself ends up with a dead Grievous. Legends Grievous =/= Tartakovsky's Grievous. Also, in an open terrain, I'd take a Tau Commander with Fusion Guns over Grievous.

As far as Legends is concerned the sheer number of ships the CIS have is going to be difficult for the Tau, and it's not like the CIS have poor ship quality or anything, Providence-classes and ships on that level are actually quite good, at least good enough and in sufficient numbers to face something like the Tau Empire. if I recall their navy would be quite small in comparison and space is the area the CIS are closest to the Tau in. On the ground they get completely slaughtered if it gets that far. And I bring that up because if the CIS do get creamed in space, the Tau will most likely take the chance to embark on another expansion into their territory, which means there would be ground battles either way.

Not really. The CIS aren't necessarily a hostile race. Its unlikely the Tau and CIS would fight at the onset if they do run into each other [if we handwave the hyperlane need]. The Tau tend to be diplomatic, although they will get very underhanded as the CIS will as well, so its unlikely a war between the two would ever really break out. Any that do would probably be fairly small border skirmishes.

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ParagonNate

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@wut: If I was Dooku, now that I don't have Sidious breathing down my neck to keep me crippling the CIS military I'd make a few changes. I'd replace B1s with B2s as the standard infantry unit, and move up the production of Droidekas and make them the standard 'heavy' unit in infantry squads. Can keep B1s around to man ship just tweak the droid AIs in general a bit, make them like they first appeared in Episode 1, where they didn't show fear and boom, a vastly superior military force.

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Wut

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@paragonnate: Also, on droids which are pretty much AI, how do they react to Chaos? Since, AI's, especially ones that have personality... tend to get Chaos Viruses.

[Although, a B1 Champion of Khorne sounds amazing. "Blood for the Blood God! Roger ROGER!"]

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ParagonNate

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#30  Edited By ParagonNate

@wut: Oh yeah, Daemon viruses......hhhmmmm. I suppose I'll make the droids like the Tau in that they have a nearly insignificant presence in the Warp, so that while it's technically possible for daemons to mess with them it's very unlikely.

Although, what does that make Machine Spirits? If AI are so easily tampered with by Chaos how does the Imperium keep anything running?

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Wut

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@paragonnate: Cause Machine Spirits are more 'VI' then 'AI', and the more advanced machine spirits, like Titans, require them to be 'interfaced' and 'merged' with a human pilot to help lessen the effects of Chaos Corruption [which... is a mixed bag because those Titan AIs are old, mean and cranky].

As, technically speaking, anyone with proper knowledge can make Scrap Code. A Mechanicus Adept made it and kept it 'inside' her then released it when she was desperate [Much to the revolution of her superior].

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FullMetalEmprah

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@wut: Those same Tau manning that station fell for Ork kommandos impersonating the Tau, so infiltration by assassins isn't unprecedented at all.

Who said he'd attack them on open terrain? Of course the Tau would win in that scenario, the firepower is too much even for Tartakovsky Grievous. He'd only strike when the situation favored him, same as most assassins.

I'm speaking about if a war did break out, a major one anyway. I'm with you on the fact they likely won't fight much, hell they might actually join together. The biggest problem they'd have is if they pissed the Imperium off during first contact with them and get a crusade sent their way or if they run into the forces of Chaos. Notably that first one though, as the Tau themselves only survived because of the Tyranids ironically.

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Wut

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@fullmetalemprah: Those same Tau manning that station fell for Ork kommandos impersonating the Tau, so infiltration by assassins isn't unprecedented at all.

They fell to Ork Kommandos in a captured Tau ship transmitting Tau codes. Hardly the Tau's fault. However, infiltrating with stolen Tau Ships and Codes =/= flying a 'small ship' unto them.

One of these things is not like the other. Also, Ork Kommandos are bloody good at their job. Sometimes they are scary competent.

Who said he'd attack them on open terrain? Of course the Tau would win in that scenario, the firepower is too much even for Tartakovsky Grievous. He'd only strike when the situation favored him, same as most assassins.

So then he would never attempt to do such a assassination in the first place because it would be a suicidal attempt.

I'm speaking about if a war did break out, a major one anyway. I'm with you on the fact they likely won't fight much, hell they might actually join together. The biggest problem they'd have is if they pissed the Imperium off during first contact with them and get a crusade sent their way or if they run into the forces of Chaos. Notably that first one though, as the Tau themselves only survived because of the Tyranids ironically.

The Imperium is way too busy to do anything like that. The whole 'galaxy split in half by a massive warpstorm and Magnus, Pert and Mort came back to party' is a bit more important to them then a random new xeno empire on the fringe of their space. I extremely doubt they would spare the manpower to do so.

Tau and their plot shields are strong.

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ParagonNate

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@wut: I think a well managed CIS could take a Crusade

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Wut

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#35  Edited By Wut

@paragonnate: Depends on the Crusade. They come in different shapes and sizes. The Damocles Crusade, the one that Tau faced, was pathetic in terms of Crusades.

The last crusade they did was the Indomitus Crusade led by Guilliman himself and his legion of 'supah' space marines. Or the Macharian Crusade which was massive and led by 40k's Alexander the Great. Crusades of those sizes would cripple or destroy the CIS, but again, no way the Imperium is dedicating that many resources to fight the CIS when they have so much stuff to worry about.

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decaf_wizard

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#36  Edited By decaf_wizard

@wut said:

@paragonnate: Depends on the Crusade. They come in different shapes and sizes. The Damocles Crusade, the one that Tau faced, was pathetic in terms of Crusades.

The last crusade they did was the Indomitus Crusade led by Guilliman himself and his legion of 'supah' space marines. Or the Macharian Crusade which was massive and led by 40k's Alexander the Great. Crusades of those sizes would cripple or destroy the CIS, but again, no way the Imperium is dedicating that many resources to fight the CIS when they have so much stuff to worry about.

In all likelihood they will piss off Xun'bakyr or Sylphek or another one of the more.....excitable Phaerons and get bodied.

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ParagonNate

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@wut said:

@paragonnate: Depends on the Crusade. They come in different shapes and sizes. The Damocles Crusade, the one that Tau faced, was pathetic in terms of Crusades.

The last crusade they did was the Indomitus Crusade led by Guilliman himself and his legion of 'supah' space marines. Or the Macharian Crusade which was massive and led by 40k's Alexander the Great. Crusades of those sizes would cripple or destroy the CIS, but again, no way the Imperium is dedicating that many resources to fight the CIS when they have so much stuff to worry about.

In all likelihood they will piss off Xun'bakyr or Sylphek or another one of the more.....excitable Phaerons and get bodied.

But.....Why would the CIS do that?

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decaf_wizard

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#38  Edited By decaf_wizard

@paragonnate said:
@decaf_wizard said:
@wut said:

@paragonnate: Depends on the Crusade. They come in different shapes and sizes. The Damocles Crusade, the one that Tau faced, was pathetic in terms of Crusades.

The last crusade they did was the Indomitus Crusade led by Guilliman himself and his legion of 'supah' space marines. Or the Macharian Crusade which was massive and led by 40k's Alexander the Great. Crusades of those sizes would cripple or destroy the CIS, but again, no way the Imperium is dedicating that many resources to fight the CIS when they have so much stuff to worry about.

In all likelihood they will piss off Xun'bakyr or Sylphek or another one of the more.....excitable Phaerons and get bodied.

But.....Why would the CIS do that?

Because they

A) Exist, which is enough for Xun'bakyr.

B) Are naive to the setting and would probably try to at least communicate with them

C) Got plopped straight into a tomb world infested section of the galaxy

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Wut

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@decaf_wizard: Eh, if they become friends with the Tau, which is likely, the Tau can give them friendly advice on the galaxy. Like:

"Don't bother trying to talk to Orks, they don't listen. Oh, and don't make deals with Dark Eldar, trust us, it goes badly...

Oh! Before we forget, if you see walking metal skeletons.. Run."

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Wolfrazer

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#40  Edited By Wolfrazer

@wut said:

@paragonnate:

Save for such droids being common in Star Wars for a long time and yet hyperspace lanes are still discovered at a snails pace.

Eh a snails pace is kind of underselling how fast charting hyperlanes are, because Hydian Way was charted beginning at 3700 BBY and ending at 3693 BBY and Hydian Way reached from the northern quadrant of the galaxy to the southern quadrant and this was with just two people and a single ship.

With the invention of the hyperdrive, hyperlanes were quote 'blazed' by explorers, both the Perlemian Trade Route and The Corellian Run were founded within the same year.

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Wut

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@wolfrazer: Couldn't that be because it was, relatively, easy to do with less obstacles? That is one of the largest used hyperlane, so that kinda enforces the idea that it is a very easy and stable hyperlane free of many other obstructions that would normally make looking and establishing it difficult and dangerous. Same with the Perlemian Trade Route and the Corellian Run. As most routes and what not branch off of those major ones which... rather supports the idea that those just happen to be very stable and easily traversed lanes, like a major highway, and it branches off into more difficult space around it.

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Wolfrazer

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#42  Edited By Wolfrazer

@wut: I mean it's from one end to another, so...possibly. But then space is pretty huge and empty, so finding anything dangerous that you'd crash into wouldn't be common. Of course, I know *** about WK40 space and what hazards they might have, but I'm just chiming in with the hyperlanes bit and even still, the hyperdrive technology greatly helped with mapping out lanes.

Although granted, the Corellian Trade Spine did take a long time, though it was built at small bits at a time.

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Wut

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@wolfrazer: True. I think I just miss remembered it being slow [Or when I read it was dangerous my mind instantly stuck on 'slow' to it as if a team goes missing then they have to restart where they left off and keep jumping till they find a safe one]. Even dangerous is relative. Could just be dangerous compared to being a Dantooine farmer or something. Enough to make your insurance crazy, but not really a death trap job. Like an Oil Rig worker or something, 75 people dying for like every 10,000 employees so 'dangerous' but not as bad as I imagined it to be. Hmmm, concede on that one, which is good, makes this thread more interesting then, 'Well.. they are stuck till they figure things out and then develop in a weird way'.

I posted a map above of the current state of the 40k galaxy. All the black 'blotches' on the map are giant tears in reality. Outside of that, its a pretty... big place, so yeah, crashing into something should be small [outside of the obligatory space hulk].

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decaf_wizard

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@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: Eh, if they become friends with the Tau, which is likely, the Tau can give them friendly advice on the galaxy. Like:

"Don't bother trying to talk to Orks, they don't listen. Oh, and don't make deals with Dark Eldar, trust us, it goes badly...

Oh! Before we forget, if you see walking metal skeletons.. Run."

I think it would be quite likely that they join together tbh

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Wut

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@decaf_wizard: Which could be super interesting. Tau ships with hyperdrives and CIS droid armies with Tau weaponry?

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@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: Which could be super interesting. Tau ships with hyperdrives and CIS droid armies with Tau weaponry?

so basically an army that is inferior knockoffs of Necrons, but better than the IG in terms of foot soldiers

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#47  Edited By Wut

@decaf_wizard: Well... I mean.. being Inferior to the Necrons isn't such a bad thing. XD They set a high standard.

I was thinking more... can outnumber the IG on battlefields. The Tau already field better infantry then guardsmen on their own.

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#48  Edited By decaf_wizard

@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: Well... I mean.. being Inferior to the Necrons isn't such a bad thing. XD They set a high standard.

I was thinking more... can outnumber the IG on battlefields. The Tau already field better infantry then guardsmen on their own.

Thing is, if they do that, they risk drawing Papa Smurfs attention. And by extension his Ultra-Buddies, and maybe the Ordo Xenos if they feel particularly exterminatory that year. Or hell maybe the Black Templars will chimp out on them.

Worse case scenario, they draw the attention of the Iron Warriors and Dark Mechanicus who want to fiddle with their machines and will likely just assblast them with the Daemon Viruses

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Wut

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@decaf_wizard: I highly doubt Papa Smurf is going to do anything about the Tau. He is about to throw down with Mort, Pert is poking his head around and Magnus is Magnus. The CIS with tau weapons are still lower on the priority list then those guys.

Have the Iron Warriors ever shown a deep interest in droid/drones? I can't recall them ever being super robotic heavy. Tank heavy, chaos/machinery crazy, but not AI/Robots.

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#50  Edited By decaf_wizard

@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: I highly doubt Papa Smurf is going to do anything about the Tau. He is about to throw down with Mort, Pert is poking his head around and Magnus is Magnus. The CIS with tau weapons are still lower on the priority list then those guys.

Have the Iron Warriors ever shown a deep interest in droid/drones? I can't recall them ever being super robotic heavy. Tank heavy, chaos/machinery crazy, but not AI/Robots.

I suppose. With Magnus nerding his planet into realspace and Mort being Mort, that is somewhat of a large issue. Pert is a lil baby and wont do anything but whine and moan in Gullimans general direction

No, but I wouldn't past them to become interested in it. Nevermind some random faction of Dark Mechancius Techpreists sitting on a few daemonic viruses and scrap code generators who would get harder than terminator armour with the thought of messing with them

Some nutty Cryptek might also get interested