The Clone Wars, Redone! Who wins!

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Posted by SWA2point0 (246 posts) 2 months, 8 days ago

Poll: The Clone Wars, Redone! Who wins! (20 votes)

The Grand Army of the Republic easily wins 15%
The Grand Army of the Republic barely wins 10%
The Covenant Sovereignty barely wins 15%
The Covenant Sovereignty easily wins 35%
Could go either way/stalemate 25%

The Covenant Sovereignty - Covenant Empire, Protoss, Tau Empire, Scrin, Terminators, Locust Horde, and Chimeran Swarm

Related imageRelated imageRelated imageImage result for Scrin logoImage result for Terminator logo movieRelated imageImage result for chimera logo resistance

Grand Army of the Republic ( Clone Wars Era )

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Rules

  • No In fighting
  • Both sides are at their height of known power, I say known because I'm talking about actual feats no speculation. All sides have their leadership and are at their peak in troops and technology
  • All lore allowed for team 1
  • The only time for prep is for all troops to be mobilized like that of the clones up above as they get ready to set out and fight each other
  • Random Encounter; both sides ofc have access to the star wars map
  • both sides must destroy each other in order to gain victory
  • Both sides are heavily determined to win

Rounds

  1. Republic has Legends feats only
  2. Republic has Canon Feats only

Story - Covenant has gone around rallying all these alien civilizations in Hutt space to begin to defend themselves since all these known aliens refuse to follow Republic law for one reason or another

Environment - The Covenant Sovereignty owns all of hut space and the Republic owns all the space shown during the clone wars. The CIS territory has declared neutral/separate from the Republic

Image result for Clone Wars map

Bonus Round the CIS is also in the mix of thus, causing a three way war.

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#51 Edited by decaf_wizard (17123 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut said:

@decaf_wizard:You're just jealous that Imperials can't do it.

I raise you one Rogue Trader, extra capitalist

Also, sidenote here, what do you think is more dangerous. Doubt Worm or Chaos Scrapcode?

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#52 Edited by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: Doubtworm. I mean, scrapcode is nasty and if you are on a world like Coruscant, you might say Scrapcode just... cause it'd really flourish, but the Doubtworm? That thing will break you in two no matter what also.. its just cruel.

I mean.. how nasty is that? First you turn into a zombie, okay, not to bad.. but then you regain sentience and seem cured, but you know its only temporary... soon enough... you know what is going to happen. You mutate into this horrid worm monster and then all of the worms 'come together' into a super worm. That is, genuinely, horrifying.

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#53 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Zerg are potent, they're obviously nid level and they evolve on a whole different level. :)

What PM's I hope you aint talking about that one RP where you took a 10 year break and then decided we should all start soon. You're on my time wut, not the other way around Lol!

I dunno... Their religion is vastly different then the Covenants... I'm not sure how accepting the Covenant is of other religions. The Tau could probably talk Post-Covenant.. Covenant races to join.

Thing is I feel the protoss could connect via TP and display imaging, they've done with Raynor, granted he wasn't a believer, but its still reasonable nevertheless. The Protoss also can display artifacts that could back up their claims even though they are both wrong.

Stealth tech like that does exist in Star Wars, so it isn't a total OCP, but I did say the Protoss and Tau could do pretty solid support.

Rare, in fact only one vessel ever had it, and star wars during the clone wars never applied it again. Keep in mind protoss cloak is superior imo than that of SW I would say as most passive scanners and so on can't really detect them, they have to apply different methods and those scanners that do detect them are those missile launchers which are basically a scanner hub. I'd have to pull up novel quotes, but IIRC it was actually fairly high tech even higher than it should of been scanner wise.

Right, I'm not disagreeing, but I feel the Protoss and Tau can pull their weight, just in different aspects is all. Ofc the Covenant would be the MVPS in the sense they have the large broad army to tank the blunt of the Clone Wars pub force.

Chimera doesn't really work like a 'plague'. They have to 'turn' people, its more like the Reapers and the husk then a super virus that infects everyone, everywhere. So... not really? The Chimera would have to take over a world, set up 'production' facilities and then start to convert the population which, I mean, at that point... you are also using a ton of resources so its not like a 'Boom, exponential growth!'.

Interesting, I thought they could via grims. Again I'm not well versed with the Chimera so, thats why I only wrote what I wrote.

You'd need serious wanking to assume the Terminators could hack tech vastly superior then their own, including, beating the GAR security and anti-hack teams just... cause Robots. Them hacking old tech makes sense, it'd be like someone going back in time and hacking Window's DOS, not excatly hard to do when you have prior knowledge of its systems, but hacking something that is far beyond its own capabilities?

Erm, has star wars ever taken pride in their anti hacking stuff? I only ask because terminators seem to be able to re-hack their own terminators despite tech com not only hacking them, but upgrading their software to prevent Skynet from doing so, but Skynet just says "Lol no." and just hacks them right back. In fact even Tech com upgrades their fighting abilities and so on to prevent being hacked more via physical means. I don't expect the terminators to hack black vaults and shit, but to hack and gain access to ships and republic fleet assuming their missions were done quite well. It's not out of their ball park as over time they should via skynet itself be capable of hacking republic stuff over time. I guess this would be less effective, but I'd still stand by them being capable of sneaking into enemy ranks and so on to cause issues.

I don't see that trade going super well. Also, Terminators are far from invincible and blasters are strong enough to kill them, they are tough, and wouldn't be easy, but your normal terminator soldiers are not 'Har Har, puny clones!' level. Its also not like the GAR can't get into its own mass droid production, I'm not talking about purposely designed awful mess that are B1s, but true battle droids, which was a thing the Republic used to use quite a lot of, so... again, the GAR has answers to it manpower issue in both droids and enlisted men, just requires some reforms and changes, which I mentioned earlier.

Right, but I aint talking about normal terminators. I'm talking about T-1000s amassed onto ship ports where its CQC and H2H combat more than an open battle field. The Clones don't know of their blending in tactics, which we've seen T-1000s mimic even our police force fairly well and have no issue in the fact they can keep on shape shifting. Space is important, but knocking out ports and such that produce ships would cause issues in the production area. Granted I'm not saying all the sudden the terminators plant 1 trillion forces on every port, but something important like kuat.... Idk I see Skynet pulling their weight if they can land boarding parties there as again the clones have nothing really to stop them or put them down really quick.

Do you think the GAR would result into that though? When did the Republic use mass droids, as far as I know they relied heavily on clones more than anything. It wasn't until the GE is when they produced specialized droids and so on.

XD Bruh, I think you are seriously confusing the Chimera with a super virus like the flood or the Doubt Worm or something.

As I said, I'm not well versed. :)

The Republic has excellent means of producing things. You.. do know having companies produce your equipment is.. how its done, right? The United States doesn't have government owned factories pumping out tanks. For instance, Ford, General Motors, etc, are who built the tanks, planes, etc. Its all contracted out just like the GAR does it. Its actually very realistic due to how the government is ran and, actually, privatizing such work usually makes them more efficient. However, the Republic can crank out things like crazy if it really put its mind to it, it just never mobilized to the point it always could have which I blame on internal politics [and writers lacking knowledge on logistics].

General Motors, is owned by the Government, this entire paragraph is now pointless! :)

I understand I know even the covies have their own companies, but I was more and less meaning due to the Republic's style its more of getting those companies to do so via money and so on. Which they struggled didn't they with money as the Senate and so on pushed for more bills to grant the GAR more money to produce more shit. Meanwhile you everyone but the Covenant who in turn do so despite owning companies saying "get back to work plebes!" Maybe this isn't an important topic I guess, Ill fold here, but my stance on the Republic getting its shit together is still iffy at best tbh.

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#54 Edited by decaf_wizard (17123 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: Doubtworm. I mean, scrapcode is nasty and if you are on a world like Coruscant, you might say Scrapcode just... cause it'd really flourish, but the Doubtworm? That thing will break you in two no matter what also.. its just cruel.

I mean.. how nasty is that? First you turn into a zombie, okay, not to bad.. but then you regain sentience and seem cured, but you know its only temporary... soon enough... you know what is going to happen. You mutate into this horrid worm monster and then all of the worms 'come together' into a super worm. That is, genuinely, horrifying.

Well I mean, Nurgle Bros and Perturabo did a tag team in 8e recently, so now Nurgle viruses can transmit through scrapcode. Scrapcode Obliterator Virus and Nurgle's Rot are now a thing so.......how about a completely memetic scrapcode doubtworm transmitted through all information?? Seems like the logical next step

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#55 Edited by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: They evolve so fast its like they really haven't changed from the first game. :P And still stuck in their lil galaxy, they're adorable, I tell ya with their allergies to lemon juice.

Loading Video...

Get on muh level.

You could at least respond, ya jerk! Yes, No, I need a few days/weeks would be rather nice! Just something.

I feel like getting into a religious argument in how your religion is right and theirs is wrong, or viceversa, is probably not a good idea. If humanity has taught us anything. :P

Nada, a lot of vessels have had stealth tech in the past. Its only been used in the Clone Wars once. A lot of the tech you think has only been once... has been around more then once. Never claimed they were as good, just that it isn't an OCP. More an... In Context Problem. I said they do good support, means they are worth having. Taking them away would hurt the Covenant. The others though? Take or leave them, nothing really changes. Only three needed are those three.

But thats more.. zombie infection then airborne infection. To make the good versions, they need 'production' facilities as Grims... are... pretty dumb.

Pretty often? Slicers [Hackers] are a very common thing in Star Wars lore. They are hacking their own robots back, mate, that.... is different then hacking a tech far more advanced then anything you've ever seen before from a totally different culture and nation that has never interacted with yours before, also.. Humans were always kinda on the back foot as far as tech is concerned so them upgraded but still not being on Skynet's level makes sense as Skynet is also constantly upgrading. I'm not saying its impossible, but to just assume Skynet is going to be able to pull it off is... a dangerous assumption.

Like all the times they never mass produced T-1000s? I imagine if they did, the GAW starts using cryoweaponry [which they have], Ion weaponry or, at the most extreme, disruptors since they are, technically, machines so the horror that is disruptors would be an easier pill to swallow.

Not referring to Clone Wars GAR. I was referring to the Republic, as a whole. During its long timeline. Its fascination with the clones to the point they didn't really use a whole lot else is one of those reforms I mentioned earlier.

GM is a publicly traded and run company. O.o Its not owned by the government any more then the US Government owns Disney. Are you referring back in like... late 2000s when they filed for bankruptcy and the treasury stepped in and invested to keep them afloat? Cause the government sold its stocks awhile ago and it never owned the company.

State run enterprises usually have a lot of issues that privately contracted ones don't. Paying a company, 'contracting' them to make your stuff for you tends to go well. Because they want to make money, which means they are going to be as efficient as possible while a state run one is only concerned with meeting quotas so isn't min-maxing to the same extent. XD I said odds are the Republic doing what it needs to do are iffy, but I said they had the tools of the job, so in theory, they could win.

@decaf_wizard: A Scrapcode Doubtworm virus would be fifteen pounds of nope in a five pound bag.

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#56 Edited by decaf_wizard (17123 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Btw, the whole disruptors being "unethical" shit goes out the window pretty fast whenever its HEAVY wartime. They used disruptors in some capacity in several conflicts during the Great Sith Wars and New Sith Wars.

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#58 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut:

They evolve so fast its like they really haven't changed from the first game. :P And still stuck in their lil galaxy, they're adorable, I tell ya with their allergies to lemon juice.

Okay first of all that lemon juice was actually infested with aids from... amon... so yeah! Secondly, remind me of how the nids lost to a single space marine chapter again? :)

That's a cool video, its a shame its only a theory, and even if it did exist, I guess we can count on the IoM one shotting it like usual, lol!

You could at least respond, ya jerk! Yes, No, I need a few days/weeks would be rather nice! Just something.

So you're not even ready? Gah you're worst than my girlfriend when it comes to nagging! :)

I feel like getting into a religious argument in how your religion is right and theirs is wrong, or viceversa, is probably not a good idea. If humanity has taught us anything. :P

But surely, a few aliens are above such petty squabbles am I right?

Image result for thor wink

Nada, a lot of vessels have had stealth tech in the past. Its only been used in the Clone Wars once. A lot of the tech you think has only been once... has been around more then once. Never claimed they were as good, just that it isn't an OCP. More an... In Context Problem. I said they do good support, means they are worth having. Taking them away would hurt the Covenant. The others though? Take or leave them, nothing really changes. Only three needed are those three.

Fair enough, also I know they did in the past with Malgus' stealth fleet, but the thing is said stealth technology could of been lost and that is why they could of abandoned it. Even though it existed back then, this doesn't change the fact that everyone currently hasn't really dealt with a stealth fleet or fleets for that matter. It's not a big game changer, but I have a feeling its going to do its part, especially for the Covenant. Considering they also had stealth ships, but if the Protoss can manage to make a couple per covenant fleet. I see the first few engagements giving the Alliance a morale boost while destroying the Republics.

I mean lesser tech like massive EMP guns caused fear and issues upon the GAR and that was a single ship. Now granted said EMPs aren't in play in the fact that they don't have an EMP cannon strapped to a massive ship, but they still have the element of surprise and causing issues in a different way via cloaking. Of course I'd say this is really good due to the fact the OP said no jobbing, which lets face it a non-jobbing covenant is actually fairly scary.

But thats more.. zombie infection then airborne infection. To make the good versions, they need 'production' facilities as Grims... are... pretty dumb.

I see, so grims can't really do the labor as the rest of the strains, noted. Do you think by any chance the Chimera army would cause terror amongst the clones. Not that land battles would be all that important, but they would surely happen along with Covenant docking GAR ships as well since they've done that plenty of times.

Pretty often? Slicers [Hackers] are a very common thing in Star Wars lore. They are hacking their own robots back, mate, that.... is different then hacking a tech far more advanced then anything you've ever seen before from a totally different culture and nation that has never interacted with yours before, also.. Humans were always kinda on the back foot as far as tech is concerned so them upgraded but still not being on Skynet's level makes sense as Skynet is also constantly upgrading. I'm not saying its impossible, but to just assume Skynet is going to be able to pull it off is... a dangerous assumption.

True, but idk man I have a feeling skynet isn't as low tech as you might believe. First off they created a time machine, and done it several times. They've created various terminators, and the second it came alive it pulled what ultron from the MCU was trying to do in the very second. Its why IIRC they wanted to do it before Skynet came alive. I'm not saying Earth is obviously more advanced than the GAR, but I don't think the GAR has really proven to be...... super advanced like lets say Forerunners, Necrons, etc.

Correct, but you got an A.I learning constantly, and I mean if R2D2 can pull it off and hes a shit bot, then... idk I find a self learning A.I that creates other self learning A.I's who's created several terminators and so on along with counter hacking, yes ik you said humans basically had to back track what Skynet does, it could be very possible that skynet can learn. I'm not expecting big plays being made. I don't expect the second skynet taps a bar on tatoonie that hes going to know every single secret that the GAR has, but over time Skynet can play its rule in causing issues in the cyberwar part which could hamper the GAR as well. AGain this is just my thoughts though.

Like all the times they never mass produced T-1000s? I imagine if they did, the GAW starts using cryoweaponry [which they have], Ion weaponry or, at the most extreme, disruptors since they are, technically, machines so the horror that is disruptors would be an easier pill to swallow.

Right, just like all the times the T-850's weren't mass produced. Skynet seems to operate in the sense of creating new robots to fit new situations. Skynet never fought a stand up army, but only a band of rebels. It's like saying why didn't the end empire just swarm Endor or crush the rebels by swarming every planet with recruits and such. Because similar to skynet, they were a pest, but not a threat until it was too late. Skynet didn't mass T-1000s because it relied heavily on having a mobile air force and ground vehicle force to try and kill any human groups that were still fighting. It didn't need or have a big desire in foot soldiers as it switched from a standard army to more of the hit and run army to counter Tech com. Every time Tech Com did a stand up fight they lost, IF it didn't involve a surprise attack and a lightning strike to catch Skynet by surprise.

We see in the novels, which i don't have I'd have to ask people to find quotes again, that Skynet was always having forces on stand by to fight any humans it found. Kind of like Resistance the fall of man, where I'd assume the Chimera had no issue wiping the floors with humanity, but when it came to the part of "humanity now resists" the Chimera switched from having standing armies to hit squads and then having a mobile force come and bring down the hammer if the human resistance was heavy or well just to come anyway to finish off any humans.

This would be different as Skynet would now resume forming up an actual army, or even more so T-1000's as hes got players now, and his players would prolly be more than willing to request skynet to build T-1000s. Idk about you, but I know I would.

The chances of them carrying specialized weaponry is slim per say, the vast majority of clones and armed personal would carry blasters just due to them being mass produced. Cryoweapons wont help, they will stall them, but wont help we know this from T2. Ion weaponry certainly would help and as would disruptors, but how does that work against liquid live metal? Has this ever been applied to something that good?

Not referring to Clone Wars GAR. I was referring to the Republic, as a whole. During its long timeline. Its fascination with the clones to the point they didn't really use a whole lot else is one of those reforms I mentioned earlier.

Fair enough, but I'm referring to specifically the clone wars GAR, as when we saw the galaxy literally at war, I didn't see too many worlds drafting. This again could change due to the fact that they are facing an alien threat or a new threat. I think the people during the Vong wars also ran from the Vong, so its entirely possible fear would strike the Republic's population so either a fight or flight would kick in.

GM is a publicly traded and run company. O.o Its not owned by the government any more then the US Government owns Disney. Are you referring back in like... late 2000s when they filed for bankruptcy and the treasury stepped in and invested to keep them afloat? Cause the government sold its stocks awhile ago and it never owned the company.

This, I could of sworn the G-men owned GM, but nvm my bad.

State run enterprises usually have a lot of issues that privately contracted ones don't. Paying a company, 'contracting' them to make your stuff for you tends to go well. Because they want to make money, which means they are going to be as efficient as possible while a state run one is only concerned with meeting quotas so isn't min-maxing to the same extent. XD I said odds are the Republic doing what it needs to do are iffy, but I said they had the tools of the job, so in theory, they could win.

I saw and I understood your theory, but I was just pointing out that I don't see that theory really coming into play due to how political the Republic is, which for a galactic scale is kinda normal.

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#60 Posted by ParagonNate (4650 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty often? Slicers [Hackers] are a very common thing in Star Wars lore. They are hacking their own robots back, mate, that.... is different then hacking a tech far more advanced then anything you've ever seen before from a totally different culture and nation that has never interacted with yours before, also.. Humans were always kinda on the back foot as far as tech is concerned so them upgraded but still not being on Skynet's level makes sense as Skynet is also constantly upgrading. I'm not saying its impossible, but to just assume Skynet is going to be able to pull it off is... a dangerous assumption.

@wut@merulezallThat's not even getting into differences in things like Operating Systems and different forms of coding and other computer languages. Would Skynet even be able to communicate with SWs computers and software to even attempt to hack it? It's entirely possible that Skynet is going to have to learn a completely different set of....well....everything before even beginning to attempt hacking SWs computers. It's only then that it has to compete with SWs own AI (droids) and hackers and anti cyberwarfare tactics, which will likely also be working to prevent said hacking once they catch on that it's a possibility. Plus SWs tends to have (relatively) decent computer security protocols and measures, like, their important military stuff isn't generally 'hackable' from a distance, you need a solid physical connection to a computer to actually get started. If that makes any sense.

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#61 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Skynet isn't a machine or a robot. It's an A.I and a smart one as well. Like I said it managed to within the first few seconds of being activated to hack all of humanity's nukes including various countries who have their own stuff along with languages and codes and did it easily. Granted this is nothing as complex as well, the GAR, but like I said over time I don't see why Skynet couldn't.

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#62 Posted by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: So Zerg can get STD's? Weak. Raynor better be careful then. Defeated by a single chapter?..... Which time? XD

I am ready. All the information and reference sheets I need are all done. I already did all the hard information for Nate's first post figured out and sent [just not my first IC post to him]. But if you need time, that's fine. Communication man! Communication!

You say that.. buttttt its almost like one of those two factions was fighting a space Jihad or something.

I never said it wouldn't be a problem, but its an in context problem, something that the Republic has faced in the past and has used, so its not like, 'Omg what is that!?' its more, 'Crap, they have stealth tech, whelp, lets get to work.' One is a much easier launching point. That wasn't just any EMP tho. That was a super potent, directed EMP blast of unknown power.

The Republic has the potential to also be scary if we take away Jobbing.

Against the Clones? Probably not. Clones are pretty brave and have fought creepy aliens on super creepy worlds before. Terrify normal citizens? Yes. I mean, like at Rakghouls, people are terrified of that.

Skynet didn't need... so.. I just imagines the large robot army they often used against the Rebels? Causeeeeeeeeeeee pretty sure I didn't. Saying they had this super awesome unit they could have totally mass produced, trust me, believe me, they could have, but never did it when they had this weaker army because............. <,< I got this....... they.. didn't... need to? Even though, in more then one timeline, Skynet was losing and had to go back in time to kill John... If your opponent pushes you so far that the only solution you can come up with is to invent time travel to murder him as an unborn baby but not enough to drastically improve your military force....... Wellllllllll something isn't adding up here.

R2D2 is a great point to Star Wars hacking ability. An astromech can become a hacker that good in the Star Wars universe. Slicers can become that good. Hacking in Star Wars can get a bit crazy. So, its not like Skynet has some great advantage here. I think they really help the Covenant not get hacked would be like.. their primary concern.

The Vong Wars had a major problem and that was the soldiers were all Ex-Rebels, so they tried to fight the war like Rebels and not like the Republic which cost them dearly. But, its the same Republic [Not Vong Republic, that is the New Republic for a reason], but the Republic from the Clone Wars is the same Republic from yonder. But that goes back to the reforms I mentioned.

The First Game is all about Chimera trying to take England. The second game is all about Chimera trying to take the USA. Only in the third, and final, game do you play as underground resistance. In the first two, you are part of a standing military fighting against them. [Granted, the Chimera eventually won the wars, the problem for them was crossing the oceans].

The T-1000 didn't 'act right' after being frozen and it was 'dead' until it thawed out. Freezing them is a very valid, and effective, means of dealing with them. If the T-1000 didn't happen to be near that fire, it would have been KOed. Ion is iffy. It works wonders against robots, but against a T-1000 is... eh..? They seem to have some kind of processor which the Ion would fry, but.. its iffy. Disruptors work by... disintegrating the target and even ignore energy shields... so they'd be super effective as being metal doesn't stop it from being disintegrated.

That is why its a theory! XD I didn't say it would be what happens in practice.

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#63 Posted by decaf_wizard (17123 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Skynet isn't a machine or a robot. It's an A.I and a smart one as well. Like I said it managed to within the first few seconds of being activated to hack all of humanity's nukes including various countries who have their own stuff along with languages and codes and did it easily. Granted this is nothing as complex as well, the GAR, but like I said over time I don't see why Skynet couldn't.

Skynet is a sweet summer child compared to some of the Daemonic Rogue AI of 40k

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#64 Posted by ParagonNate (4650 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Skynet isn't a machine or a robot. It's an A.I and a smart one as well. Like I said it managed to within the first few seconds of being activated to hack all of humanity's nukes including various countries who have their own stuff along with languages and codes and did it easily. Granted this is nothing as complex as well, the GAR, but like I said over time I don't see why Skynet couldn't.

I know that it's an AI, so is C-3PO. It's smart yes but that scene is.....odd, for a number of reasons. You can't hack something you don't have a connection to, it's impossible simply because if you can't connect to a system, then you can't transfer any information to it, which is what the basis of all computer communication is, including hacking. So Skynet accomplishes a lot of impossible thingss because the writers don't know how computers work, because the US government and military isn't stupid, the many nuclear sites and similar locations don't have any connection to any outside networks of any kind, either physical or digital, because hacking is a threat and they're aware of it. You can't 'hack' the Pentagon remotely any more than you can 'hack' a brick, because in both situations you have no way to transfer information to either object. The same is true of nuclear silos and most heavily secure military locations.

So just because Terminator United States and stupid and had all of their secure locations connected to accessible wireless communication, doesn't mean the GAR is that stupid, in fact they've been explicitly shown to not be that stupid.

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#65 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut:

So Zerg can get STD's? Weak. Raynor better be careful then. Defeated by a single chapter?..... Which time? XD

STDs from a god, the same kind of shit Nurgle does for a living. :)

Ultramarines time, blood angels time, blood ravens time, Tau Empire time, Imperial fists, Iron Warriors, Black Legion, in fact just about every space marine chapter as destroyed the nids with a handful of space marines. :)

I am ready. All the information and reference sheets I need are all done. I already did all the hard information for Nate's first post figured out and sent [just not my first IC post to him]. But if you need time, that's fine. Communication man! Communication!

I don't need time, I just need the feel for it. Haha.

You say that.. buttttt its almost like one of those two factions was fighting a space Jihad or something.

But was it a Jihad, or just a war for extermination? I mean the Borg wipe races all the time and same with the nids, but we don't call them Jihads now do we?

Image result for gotcha gif

I never said it wouldn't be a problem, but its an in context problem, something that the Republic has faced in the past and has used, so its not like, 'Omg what is that!?' its more, 'Crap, they have stealth tech, whelp, lets get toork.' One is a much easier launching point. That wasn't just any EMP tho. That was a super potent, directed EMP blast of unknown power.

Actually, lets check this out real quick,

Loading Video...

Legends for cloaked ships including anakin creating it or whatever is none. They got nothing maybe a maul ship, but this comes down to again whether we count TCW as legends or Canon cause i'm not sure which goes where tbh.

Note, this tech on spaceships only came from TCW, not any other lore, so really unless we count the TCW as legends, legends has no means of actually seeing stealth ships for a long time. The only person who wouldn't be completely caught off guard would be Sidious as I'm sure due to his vast knowledge he would know ofc wtf is going on. However, the jedi as a whole and everyone as a whole would prolly not really realize whats going on until its too late. Like I said its not so much they don't know, its so much that they forgot which time does that... and the fact they are facing a force who takes pride in cloaking for the most part... This might be an issue.

You are correct with the EMP attack, I'm just saying the Republic struggles with handling with new type of technology. They aren't simply use to it, which leaves them hanging in the first few engagements of the war, which in turn do matter as morale is lowered and production could kick in, but its unlikely in the aspect that lots of senate debating can very well happen and cause the republic to stall longer than it needs to.

The Republic has the potential to also be scary if we take away Jobbing.

Eh the republic doesn't even really job, CIS JOBBED way harder than the republic ever did. In fact a non jobbing CIS could very well give both the Republic AND the Covenant alliance a real run for their money at the same time if they were ofc non jobbing and legends versions. I think its already agreed that the non jobbing CIS who isnt crippled by Sidious would take a solid over the GAR.

Against the Clones? Probably not. Clones are pretty brave and have fought creepy aliens on super creepy worlds before. Terrify normal citizens? Yes. I mean, like at Rakghouls, people are terrified of that.

Clones are brave, but I find the Chimera more terrifying than 95% of what the Republic races, also Idk about you but the idea of Grunts charging in with their big blue balls, seems to hit a whole different level of fear as even an Ork warboss or a space marine chapter would die. :) ( kidding ofc dont get salty now. XD )

Skynet didn't need... so.. I just imagines the large robot army they often used against the Rebels? Causeeeeeeeeeeee pretty sure I didn't. Saying they had this super awesome unit they could have totally mass produced, trust me, believe me, they could have, but never did it when they had this weaker army because............. <,< I got this....... they.. didn't... need to? Even though, in more then one timeline, Skynet was losing and had to go back in time to kill John... If your opponent pushes you so far that the only solution you can come up with is to invent time travel to murder him as an unborn baby but not enough to drastically improve your military force....... Wellllllllll something isn't adding up here.

Think of it as the British vs the Americans. The British were fighting the US right, why didn't they just show up in mass and lol stomped us? Because technically speaking even the minor army they had sent to us, should of destroyed us and in any open engagement for the most part they kicked our ass. Thing is, we didn't fight fair. By a logical stand point Tech com should of NEVER lived to begin with. Yes there are tons of timelines where skynet wins and loses across the board against Tech com, but its made and it always has been made extremely clear that if it wasn't for one man, Skynet would of won in basically almost every time line.

We also have to remember, unlike skynet whom is by themselves during that time peroid. They are still A.I's as @wolfrazer they lack thinking outside the box sometimes, but it doens't mean they can't do it. The T-850 is a wonderful example. Why didnt skynet just mass produce and send back in time to own everyone they came across and rekt John Connor and his mom? Because.. reasons. They have the factories to produce shit, its just they didnt because for the first part of the war, skynet didn't even realize recognize them.

Again I'm drawing this all from past arguments and from my opinion the movies. There's a lot of things Skynet could of done different, but Tech Com knew where to hit and when to hit it, they weren't afraid of skynet, they just lacked the man power to over come them and so had to in turn hit hard and hit fast.

R2D2 is a great point to Star Wars hacking ability. An astromech can become a hacker that good in the Star Wars universe. Slicers can become that good. Hacking in Star Wars can get a bit crazy. So, its not like Skynet has some great advantage here. I think they really help the Covenant not get hacked would be like.. their primary concern.

That could be very well be the case as the Covenant A.I sucks balls. However, thats my point an astromech is just good for guiding ships and stuff for the most part am I not correct? So them hacking and so on isn't so much that the star wars galaxy is stronk in that area, its just that everyone seems to do fairly well when it comes to hacking cause people suck at defending their systems? Again I'm not reaching for the fact Skynet will lolstomp the second it touches a system, but I'm willing to bet a sentient A.I who has not only hacked his own stuff back, but also knows of hacking and so on and over rid earth's system defenses and launched nukes in like a second can and should do fine in the SW galaxy over time.

The Vong Wars had a major problem and that was the soldiers were all Ex-Rebels, so they tried to fight the war like Rebels and not like the Republic which cost them dearly. But, its the same Republic [Not Vong Republic, that is the New Republic for a reason], but the Republic from the Clone Wars is the same Republic from yonder. But that goes back to the reforms I mentioned.

But tbh fighting like the rebels would be better fitting against this alien team than a stand up fight. However, that's just me.

The First Game is all about Chimera trying to take England. The second game is all about Chimera trying to take the USA. Only in the third, and final, game do you play as underground resistance. In the first two, you are part of a standing military fighting against them. [Granted, the Chimera eventually won the wars, the problem for them was crossing the oceans].

Good to know. However, how did the Chimera lose?

The T-1000 didn't 'act right' after being frozen and it was 'dead' until it thawed out. Freezing them is a very valid, and effective, means of dealing with them. If the T-1000 didn't happen to be near that fire, it would have been KOed. Ion is iffy. It works wonders against robots, but against a T-1000 is... eh..? They seem to have some kind of processor which the Ion would fry, but.. its iffy. Disruptors work by... disintegrating the target and even ignore energy shields... so they'd be super effective as being metal doesn't stop it from being disintegrated.

But was it really? It still won against the T-850 just fine. In fact its cool moves it displayed weren't bad either.

Loading Video...

This came after the freezing T-1000 ofc.

I find Ion not that effective, and Disruptors as I said are super rare unless I'm mistaken???

That is why its a theory! XD I didn't say it would be what happens in practice.

I'm telling you it wont work because theory's dont exist! :)

@decaf_wizard said:

@merulezall said:

@paragonnate: Skynet isn't a machine or a robot. It's an A.I and a smart one as well. Like I said it managed to within the first few seconds of being activated to hack all of humanity's nukes including various countries who have their own stuff along with languages and codes and did it easily. Granted this is nothing as complex as well, the GAR, but like I said over time I don't see why Skynet couldn't.

Skynet is a sweet summer child compared to some of the Daemonic Rogue AI of 40k

What? I'm a little confused. :)

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#66 Posted by decaf_wizard (17123 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: what I mean is that Skynet would be eaten alive by some of the AI the 40k verse could throw at it, some of which the tau sometimes deal with. Tau use extremely widespread AI

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#67 Posted by Wolfrazer (16494 posts) - - Show Bio
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#68 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: You're pretty knowledgable on both terminator and star wars especially star wars legends, whats your input on how well skynet would do in the Star wars universe during the clone wars era for hacking and so on?

@paragonnate: what I mean is that Skynet would be eaten alive by some of the AI the 40k verse could throw at it, some of which the tau sometimes deal with. Tau use extremely widespread AI

We've already talked about this. Skynet would mind control the Machine spirit. :p

@merulezall said:

@paragonnate: Skynet isn't a machine or a robot. It's an A.I and a smart one as well. Like I said it managed to within the first few seconds of being activated to hack all of humanity's nukes including various countries who have their own stuff along with languages and codes and did it easily. Granted this is nothing as complex as well, the GAR, but like I said over time I don't see why Skynet couldn't.

I know that it's an AI, so is C-3PO. It's smart yes but that scene is.....odd, for a number of reasons. You can't hack something you don't have a connection to, it's impossible simply because if you can't connect to a system, then you can't transfer any information to it, which is what the basis of all computer communication is, including hacking. So Skynet accomplishes a lot of impossible thingss because the writers don't know how computers work, because the US government and military isn't stupid, the many nuclear sites and similar locations don't have any connection to any outside networks of any kind, either physical or digital, because hacking is a threat and they're aware of it. You can't 'hack' the Pentagon remotely any more than you can 'hack' a brick, because in both situations you have no way to transfer information to either object. The same is true of nuclear silos and most heavily secure military locations.

So just because Terminator United States and stupid and had all of their secure locations connected to accessible wireless communication, doesn't mean the GAR is that stupid, in fact they've been explicitly shown to not be that stupid.

Ill address this soon good sir, I do apologize. I did not get or see the note. :(

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#69 Posted by decaf_wizard (17123 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard said:

@paragonnate: what I mean is that Skynet would be eaten alive by some of the AI the 40k verse could throw at it, some of which the tau sometimes deal with. Tau use extremely widespread AI

We've already talked about this. Skynet would mind control the Machine spirit. :p

Skynet could be beaten by a single Iron Warrior with nothing but a gameboy advance, a keyboard and a single Daemonic Ritual

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#70 Edited by Wolfrazer (16494 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: I'm not as knowledgeable on the Terminatorverse as I am SW. That said, it doesn't bode well for Skynet as far as hacking goes. As already been said, yeah Skynet took over the defense systems within the US which then launched an attack over to Russia but....I mean given Skynet was already plugged into the systems, it doesn't really need to do much to takeover. Skynet didn't hack anything, it was already given control.

Tech-Com has Covert Ops which are expert hackers, but if they can hack into secured defense systems and take over Skynet controlled facilities throughout the war. I don't see why the Clone Shadow Troopers, Clone Commandos or ARC Troopers can't do the same if not even better.

Let's be real here, in their universe they're up against what's left of humanity and that doesn't bode well because humankind has lost much, they are living off of scraps and what they can get their hands on in a post-nuclear Earth. That's a far cry from the GAR here.

I mean could Skynet hack other systems? Sure I don't see why not, but the question is how long would it take for them to do so and if they can bypass security they aren't familiar with. Sure you could swing this question around to the GAR, but they have more reasoning as to why they'll be able to hack Skynet systems if Tech-Com Covert Ops can do so with practically little resources.

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#71 Edited by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: Weird, I didn't get a notification.

Lol the which time was me saying it happened, but its not a low showing since it'd end just as bad for those scrub Zerg.

What feel do you need?

It was a Jihad..... Like.. it was a holy war against the humans. Covenant had a hatred of humanity due to the whole Forerunner nonsense... They treated humans far differently then any other race. That 'personal hatred' doesn't exist with the Nids anymore then a man hates the steak on his plate.

Or, you know, random troops in the field don't have time to comb through the thousands of years the Republic has been around to check and see if they have faced this tech before? Not every guy in the SW universe is a walking history buff and knows every facet of the universe, they speak and act from their limited knowledge. Seriously, this is like saying WW2 United States has never faced tanks before because they were surprised and caught off guard by the number of heavy tanks the German's used. They could have found out, easily enough, if they had spent more time researching.

The GAR was jobbed pretty hard. Especially in canon. Just because they went up against someone worse then them doesn't mean they were given dumb ideas and tactics.

No.. That isn't how the Revolutionary war worked. Also, rebellions tend to end pretty poorly unless they have outside support [For English vs American, see Example: France] for money, weaponry and training. The British invested what they could, however, this utterly ignores how hard it is to fight an entire population as well as the extreme limitations of global power projection that was in this time frame. If you say, 'but if it wasn't for ONE MAN!' then.. they still lost. It doesn't matter if it was because of one man, one tank, one bomb, one army. A loss is a loss. If your only option for victory is to invent god dang time travel, then that should tell you something. Stop ignoring that for the sake of ignoring it.

Guerrilla warfare is common for rebellions. If Skynet couldn't adopt to better face such asymmetric warfare, that is a fault in its processing ability.

Wut? You don't get to point out how AIs in Star Wars become amazing with age and learn really cool stuff and then turn around and go, 'Nah, R2D2 isn't good, its just the universe sucks'. Bruh, that is some bad faith debating right there.

Yes, Skynet, the thing that was given control of the military by humans and then, surprise pikachu, Skynet betrayed them. [Also, its not actually possible to fire nukes without human input, they were designed that way, but 'I guess Skynet's earth was just that sucky'].

Why? Asymmetric warfare means they give up ground. Give up planets. Which would cost them public support in the senate. That isn't a good plan.

Which time? The Chimera lost numerous times. If you mean 'what finally caused their defeat'? The same as every time, their own incompetence.

Disruptors aren't rare or hard to make. They are illegal in Republic Space. That's it. Its not that they can't be mass produced. Its not like the technology is rare or missing. Its just illegal.

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#72 Edited by Wolfrazer (16494 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Eh, I don't think the Republic needs Disruptors, blasters should work quite well. In fact quite honestly, SW kinda sorta already has something in vain of the Terminator series, the Xim War Droids which are easily destroyed by blaster fire while being extremely difficult to kill even with heavy weapons, rocket launchers, grenade launchers and crew-served guns and so on.

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#73 Posted by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Oh, the Disruptor talk was for the T-1000, the liquid metal guys. Blasters are more then enough for like.. normal Terminators.

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#74 Edited by Wolfrazer (16494 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: They shouldn't really need Disruptors for T-1000s either, seeing as blasters can vaporize just about any material, turning liquid into steam and just do terrible damage all on a cellular level. I mean sure a Disruptor might be a lot faster, but wouldn't really be needed.

Plus when was Skynet mass producing T-1000s anyway? Their main troop model was always the 800/850 along with their HK series.

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#75 Posted by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Eh, I think its a matter of... time and cost efficiency. You can kill a T-1000 if you shoot it enough times with a 40mm grenade launcher, however, that will take concentrated firepower and... a lot of time and money compared to how much damage a T-1000 could due to people in return, so the easier solution would be to simply create better weapons designed for that purpose. Sure, there are Blaster feats of them utterly vaporizing large targets, but those feats tend to be more higher end then the norm and I don't wanna cherry pick.

Hey, them never mass producing T-1000 was something I pointed out as well. Even when they were losing and pushed into inventing time travel in some silly plan to assassinate an unborn child, they didn't mass produce them which means there is either something very wrong with the T-1000 when put up against energy weapons [like Tech has] or they are too expensive/don't last long enough to make it feasible.

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#76 Edited by Wolfrazer (16494 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Well I mean the T-1000 isn't a large target and there's plenty of showings of blasters just...blasting straight through a human sized target. But then I guess it just depends on the blaster setting. Still I can't imagine it taking much even standard settings, seeing as the T-1000 doesn't like extreme heat which a blaster does give off regularly.

I never really saw the T-1000 as a mass production of sort anyway. Plus it's not like they wouldn't get detected, they might fool eyesight, but I don't recall the T-1000 being able to fool sensor readings, thermals and the like. Plenty of which SW does have, even on a troop level.

Still this seems kinda lopsided in favor for Team 1 as there's several factions to deal with compared to just the GAR.

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#77 Posted by Supermanthor (22700 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

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#78 Posted by Killerwasp (17499 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: @wut: He said all lore, i find it that a blaster has the out put of a .50 and rpg level fire power to of which in the novels as well the terms have tanked that and kept running. Terminators novel wise run 3x faster than humans as well. MERA is also drawing from IIRC reddit where someone showed that there were in fact millions upon millions of terminators including T-1000s all across the globe. Skynet obviously may of had bigger plans. I got the novels for the terminators, but seeing as terminators are better fighters overall I have a feeling the clones will be in a world of hurt especially since this is again non----- wait skynet doesnt have a time control ban?? GG wut, GG get rekted nub skynet solos XD

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#79 Posted by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: I'd be worried if Timetravel ever actually worked for Skynet.

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#80 Posted by Killerwasp (17499 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: technically it has in other time lines so... gg Xd

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#81 Posted by tshulkgaming (10 posts) - - Show Bio

woah

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#82 Edited by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: No worries, i figured you didn't get it, but I was lazy at the time to repost. :)

Lol the which time was me saying it happened, but its not a low showing since it'd end just as bad for those scrub Zerg.

Oh I know, I'm just telling you the zerg are always winning, never losing. :) Just making tactical long end game choices in order to bait out their foes. My goodness I miss the old zerg...

What feel do you need?

The ability to make a character tbh Lol.

It was a Jihad..... Like.. it was a holy war against the humans. Covenant had a hatred of humanity due to the whole Forerunner nonsense... They treated humans far differently then any other race. That 'personal hatred' doesn't exist with the Nids anymore then a man hates the steak on his plate.

I'm going to tell you this one more time, Alien's can't have Jihads, that is a human term find a better word slick. :)

Or, you know, random troops in the field don't have time to comb through the thousands of years the Republic has been around to check and see if they have faced this tech before? Not every guy in the SW universe is a walking history buff and knows every facet of the universe, they speak and act from their limited knowledge. Seriously, this is like saying WW2 United States has never faced tanks before because they were surprised and caught off guard by the number of heavy tanks the German's used. They could have found out, easily enough, if they had spent more time researching.

Pucking damn it, you usually have the better examples. However, I can agree with that. I'm just saying knowledge is usually forgotten is all. Old tech gets tossed and new tech gets replaced. Kind of like Warhammer 40k where old tech gets lost and can't be made again. That was the direction I was going, but I can see this being the point.

The GAR was jobbed pretty hard. Especially in canon. Just because they went up against someone worse then them doesn't mean they were given dumb ideas and tactics.

I could care less for canon, I mean legends. The clones didn't have retarded commanders in Legends, they actually had really good commanders and so did the CIS, but the issue was Sidious was end selling the CIS, and plot went against the CIS as they could of never have won as the lore wouldn't fit in.

No.. That isn't how the Revolutionary war worked. Also, rebellions tend to end pretty poorly unless they have outside support [For English vs American, see Example: France] for money, weaponry and training. The British invested what they could, however, this utterly ignores how hard it is to fight an entire population as well as the extreme limitations of global power projection that was in this time frame. If you say, 'but if it wasn't for ONE MAN!' then.. they still lost. It doesn't matter if it was because of one man, one tank, one bomb, one army. A loss is a loss. If your only option for victory is to invent god dang time travel, then that should tell you something. Stop ignoring that for the sake of ignoring it.

The one man argument is John Connor, it was made clear that he brought the humans together in every single time line and trained them to be killers and so on. Like I said logically Skynet should of lolstomped, but they didn't because there's no story behind skynet winning.

Also you're right I should of used Viet nam as more of an example. We went from massive armies and invasions like WW2 and Korea to lightning strikes and call in support to fight the Vietnamese. Because the old ways weren't cutting it. That's the same with skynet, it was having more a better time moving a small force around then a big ass army marching and combing the desert for rebel scum.

Don't tell me how to live my life, do you see me coming up with excuses for why skynet lost? Nooo, you seem me being logical! I'm just saying its a machine, it wanted to win, but plot said NOPE! It's the same reason why the Empire lost, plot good sir, plot.

Guerrilla warfare is common for rebellions. If Skynet couldn't adopt to better face such asymmetric warfare, that is a fault in its processing ability.

Skynet wasn't dealing with some backwater guerrilla force though.

John Connor and his allies liberated a considerable number of people from the labour camps, forming the nucleus of his resistance army. They destroyed Skynet's command and control facilities and "defence net", then proceeded to destroy the mainframes that controlled the local defence systems around its primary location.

Notably, John Connor, using his superior technical skills (allied with his military prowess) was able to use Skynet's own satellites and defence grid to coordinate anti-Skynet activities around the world.

“There came a man ... a great man,” he added rever-ently, “who kept us alive. Ragged and half starving but alive. We got stronger, and he taught us to fight. To storm the wire of the camps. To smash those metal motherfuckers into junk. He turned it around and brought us back from the brink.”

Terminator: Official Novelisation

and

“It [Skynet] had no choice,” he was saying. “The defense grid was smashed. We’d blown the main frames—we’d won.

Terminator: Official Novelisation

and

Now, surrounded by his staff, John was coordinating a dozen major offensives throughout the world via his mobile telecommunications unit.

Reese had been told that they actually pirated channels off Skynet’s own satellites, knowing the enemy would destroy anything men could put up there but that it couldn’t afford to destroy its own global relay system. Reese didn’t have a clue how that stuff worked, but that wasn’t his job, anyway.

Terminator: Official Novelisation

Terminator 2: Judgement Day

The clear implication is that the human survivors, rallied by John Connor, were able to fight a war of attrition against Skynet's forces. Despite an initial advantage (the nuclear destruction of nearly 75% of the human race) and the creation of slave-run and machine-automated factories churning out Terminators, the humans are just plain outbreeding Skynet's forces as well as making it fight bitterly for every inch of ground.

To Skynet, human stubbornness made no sense. They fought when logic told the synthetic intelligence they were beaten. They relentlessly poured out of the rubble like a bacterial plague, their patterns of counterattack clever and difficult to predict. And humans reproduced at an alarming rate, their sexual appetites evidently fanned high by the threat of total annihilation.

Even though it took at least eight years before the human young could be made ready for battle, they were beginning to outpace Skynet’s manufacturing capabilities. And they were quickly learning to find the soft spots in the metal vanguard, decimating Skynet’s army of killing machines. Soon, there would be more human soldiers than nonhuman. The hyper-computer had miscalculated gravely on something it was still furiously analyzing: human will. So far, it had not come to a conclusion. And the war was grinding into its thirty-first year....

Terminator: Official Novelisation

T3: Rise of the Machines

Skynet is actually holding its own in this timeline. Humanity is deeply disheartened and birth-rates are declining very rapidly. The inability to grow crops and supply food is taking its toll and John Connor and his forces have largely had to resort to hail-mary attacks on Skynet's headquarters. When a couple of these come very close to working, Skynet decides that now would be an excellent time to send another Terminator back to kill John Connor's lieutenants.

Human settlements, sometimes hanging on only by sheer determination, were critically important because they were the last pockets of resistance. They also were important because of the sharp decrease in the human birth rate. Who wanted to bring a child into a world of chaos, death, and destruction? These days the sparks of human existence were reduced to dim flickers around the world.

Terminator: Official Novelisation

and

Skynet came to the same conclusion as John Connor. Something would have to be sent back. This second incursion on Navajo Mountain Redoubt had come dangerously close to succeeding.

Terminator: Official Novelisation

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles

There aren't a lot of details about how the war is going in TSCC. We know that John Connor has invested a considerable amount of time and effort in developing and managing the time displacement equipment, to the point that he and his "Bubble-Techs" are able to use to send temporal hit-squads, covert support teams and reprogrammed Terminators through time with relative ease.

It's also apparent that he and his techs were reprogramming a lot of different Terminator models and giving them command roles throughout the Resistance. On top of that, he was trying to make contact with advanced Terminator models in the hope of coming to peace with them and securing their support against Skynet.

Garvin: Connor needs it.

Dietze:Connor? Connor is so into his big chess match with Skynet he doesn't see how the tin cans got us right where they want us. Metal on every base, running the show in all but name.Just waiting to hit us all at once with something big. Maybe something that's in that box.

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles - The Last Voyage of the Jimmy Carter

Terminator: Genisys

This timeline seems to most closely resemble the one seen in Terminator 2, with John liberating prisoners and leading the charge against Skynet. There are, however, two highly notable changes.

1) Kyle Reese is rescued by John much earlier in this timeline, during Kyle's childhood. It also seems that it's possible for someone to have two entirely different sets of memories after a timeline collapses.

2) It's explictly stated that John is able to predict the outcome of the war (along with the results of individual battles) because of the foreknowledge given to his mother in the T2 timeline by the T-800

Kyle:People whisper about John. Wonder how he can know the things he does. They use words like 'prophet'

At this point, both John and Skynet appear to be playing a bafflingly complicated game of 4-dimensional checkers, flinging soldiers backwards and forward in time to try to kill each other and to defend themselves. They're each using knowledge gained from earlier timelines to swing the battle in their favour or advance technologically.

Although i did find the quote where humans indeed out numbered terminators, so maybe it was a different time line that i was getting the millions upon millions of terminators, so I do apologize. However, its possible that skynet could mass produce over time though no?

In the end I'm not trying to wank skynet, I just believe as you said urself with the Chimera, or the Locust from gears, Covenant from halo, Empire from star wars, all of them aren't garbage. Just plot doesn't work in their favor because in a logical stand point they all should of won as they all held the ball in their hand. I get it said ball can slip and fall out of someone's hand, but I don't think thats necessary a merit against the faction more just that one mistake echoed. Anyway, If you feel different feel free to explain more I guess if you don't I get it.

Wut? You don't get to point out how AIs in Star Wars become amazing with age and learn really cool stuff and then turn around and go, 'Nah, R2D2 isn't good, its just the universe sucks'. Bruh, that is some bad faith debating right there.

Not really bad debating. A.I's improve in Star Wars as time goes on sure, but R2D2 was what again? an Astromech, which its job is to what? To repair ships and maintain them, and suddenly he just hacks everything? Odd is all im trying to say.

Yes, Skynet, the thing that was given control of the military by humans and then, surprise pikachu, Skynet betrayed them. [Also, its not actually possible to fire nukes without human input, they were designed that way, but 'I guess Skynet's earth was just that sucky'].

That earth is no different than ours, we gave skynet basically our military on a silver platter because we felt confident that it would win us wars in the future, that was the entire point of creating skynet. Now you sir, don't get to low ball earth because some idiot changed the way we fire nukes, that sir is poor debating. :)

Why? Asymmetric warfare means they give up ground. Give up planets. Which would cost them public support in the senate. That isn't a good plan.

It could or make everyone kinda run to the hills and let the other guy deal with it. At this time the GAR was in no position to really wage war besides the clones, I guess the sheer man power would give the GAR a boost, but then again Covenant can just spam grunts. XD

Which time? The Chimera lost numerous times. If you mean 'what finally caused their defeat'? The same as every time, their own incompetence.

Lost numerous times, I thought they lost in the final fight as earth was theres wasn't it?

Disruptors aren't rare or hard to make. They are illegal in Republic Space. That's it. Its not that they can't be mass produced. Its not like the technology is rare or missing. Its just illegal.

Oh, I had no idea. Again SW isn't my best, thank you for the info though! Why are they illegal in Republic Space though?

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#83 Posted by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: Covenant is a human word, yet we still apply it to them.

Your 40k example would work if we didn't have the Jedi and their super in-depth archives that are so large even the Jedi don't know whats all in it and tis a reason a main 'go-to' move of the Jedi when faced with something is to check the archives. Are some things lost? Without a doubt, impossible for them to catch everything, but the argument that 'its all lost, they all don't remember them because I said they don't' doesn't quite work like it does in 40k where its an established fact that most DAoT stuff is lost. This isn't the same for the Republic.

Canon is a part of Legend. Events, books, movies, etc that happened in cannon happened in legends. So... yes, those examples are still there. Unless someone is trying to cherry pick feats.

Logically? One of the timelines has humans, somehow, outbreeding skynet. Somehow, humans can outbred something that can just crank out things in a factory... out bred by a species that usually only has one child per birth and takes over a decade to come to maturity. Yeah, that is some logic. You don't get to use lore when it suits you and then dismiss it when it doesn't. 'They lost cause plot!' isn't a debate and never has been. That is something they have been shown to do, it shows limitations, it shows ability. Chimera are dangerous, but their plans? Dumb as crap. Not the best strategist, to be sure. You don't get to ignore that because you don't like it.

John Conner, a single man, with asymmetric warfare [Your vietnam take doesn't work. Asymmetric warfare did not change modern warfare, at all. Asymmetric warfare has always existed {Even back in the bronze age} and the Vietnamese used it to great effect against the French and the Chinese before that and the Mongols before that and the Chinese... again before that. The main change to warfare thanks to Vietnam had nothing to do with the style of war fought and entirely because of the introduction of helicopters which brought in an era of rapid deployment never before seen in war] managed to consistently bring Skynet to the edge of defeat. Full stop. That isn't 'plot'. If it happens multiple times, that is limitations on Skynet's abilities. As annoying and dumb as it often can be,that is what they do, that is what they are capable of, that is whom they have gone up against and fallen short against. You have to take that into consideration, you don't get to ignore it because you don't like it.

Because you can't just go, 'Plot'. That isn't a debate. The Chimera, do they have cool tech? Sure. Are they dangerous? Extremely. Do they use good small scale tactics? Yes. How is their overall strategy and planning? Pretty piss poor. They lose, every time, because of this poorly thought out grand strategy. I don't care if you think its dumb, it happened. Threetimes. So, what is the take away? Don't let Chimera plan the campaigns. Also, the Covenant don't suffer badly from that, internal division destroyed them, not plot armor. It actually fits rather well. Skynet, what is the takeaway? They preform poorly against guerrilla campaigns. IT doesn't take away from what they are good at, it doesn't make their teminators any less terminatory, but you don't get to go, 'Plot' and ignore the very serious issues these guys have.

More to the point, my entire argument has been one single thing: They aren't needed. You can remove the Scrin, Skynet, Locust and the Chimera and nothing would change. Because they are not big enough factors to change the outcome. Do they help? Sure. Do they help by any tangible amount that would effect the outcome? No. If you removed them, would it change the outcome? No. If you added them to the other team, would it change the outcome? No.

I'm ignoring Skynet's timetravel for my own sanity because it makes it murky because most of the time it doesn't even work out for them and comes back to bite them even harder, just like I'm not going to use a hypothetical intergalactic Scrin that we know nothing about.

But this has been my point, this entire time. You can argue that Skynet can do X and Y, but I will say... does it actually matter in the context of this thread?

Astromechs can also calculate Hyperspace jumps, something that takes serious computing power. So its not like they are protocol droids or something. Also, as has been established in SW, the longer a droid lives, the more it learns and picks up which is why memory wipes are needed to keep them 'factory'. So, a droid as old as R2D2 with, what is essentially a super computer, in his head? Yes, I'm not surprised he is so good at hacking.

I was turning your statement back on you. You attempted to say, 'Maybe R2D2 is good at hacking because their cyber-security sucks'. So, I flipped it since in, our real earth, its not possible to fire a nuke without someone physically flipping all the switches and turning the key [in fact, this fail safe prevented WW3. I mean, literally, stopped WW3 because he didn't fire despite having supposed to which is exactly why this system is in place.] thus Skynet is only good at hacking because their cyber-security sucks. See how that doesn't work and is bad debating? Yes, why I said you probably should think about trying it.

The plan was to have it fight the war for them, but in the third movie, they gave it the power before it was really ready so that it could crush a virus [that was actually Skynet, itself]. So... yes, that does put context onto the situation.

As for the Chimera, you can lose campaigns and still win the war. They eventually won, but they suffered numerous failed campaigns.

XD Because they are nasty? Honestly, not sure, I don't know if its because its painful or.. if I had to randomly guess, murder. If you utterly disintegrate someone, it'd be hard to you as you aren't leaving much evidence behind which would make it really good for assassins [bounty hunters really like them, IIRC]

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#84 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut:

Covenant is a human word, yet we still apply it to them.

Now... should i be a technical ass about this, or not. I hate halo, but I think ill be an ass what you say? :) The Covenant doesn't call themselves the Covenant just like they don't call each other elites, brutes, etc. Its the human word that we can best fit them with or give them nicknames and associate with, the Covenant doesn't call themselves the Covenant its the closest thing we have for their unity. Cortana states them, so in other words Mr. Wut.

Image result for boom roasted gif

Your 40k example would work if we didn't have the Jedi and their super in-depth archives that are so large even the Jedi don't know whats all in it and tis a reason a main 'go-to' move of the Jedi when faced with something is to check the archives. Are some things lost? Without a doubt, impossible for them to catch everything, but the argument that 'its all lost, they all don't remember them because I said they don't' doesn't quite work like it does in 40k where its an established fact that most DAoT stuff is lost. This isn't the same for the Republic.

Okay, I understand that now. I didn't realize the Jedi archives held so much data to the point where even the jedi don't know every single thing in that. I'm not expecting noobs to know it, but I thought some jedi did or the higher ups.

Canon is a part of Legend. Events, books, movies, etc that happened in cannon happened in legends. So... yes, those examples are still there. Unless someone is trying to cherry pick feats.

Check the Op though, I think we both know what canon means for star wars though. Otherwise why even split it in the first place? Alright even if we did give them the benefit of the doubt, do they have a means of detecting cloaked vessels? Last I checked we talked about this before, in which the Empire didn't.

Logically? One of the timelines has humans, somehow, outbreeding skynet. Somehow, humans can outbred something that can just crank out things in a factory... out bred by a species that usually only has one child per birth and takes over a decade to come to maturity. Yeah, that is some logic. You don't get to use lore when it suits you and then dismiss it when it doesn't. 'They lost cause plot!' isn't a debate and never has been. That is something they have been shown to do, it shows limitations, it shows ability. Chimera are dangerous, but their plans? Dumb as crap. Not the best strategist, to be sure. You don't get to ignore that because you don't like it.

Woah, you're confusing logic with what I posted. Logically, Skynet should of swept humanity, because logically the amount of nukes dropped would of caused some serious radiation issues and killed most of the human life on the planet.

However, if you read in the quote section Skynet technically didn't account for two things, one was already stated human will. The other, it didn't really expect humanity to live. Otherwise, why nuke the planet? It saw nukes as the most effective means as to wipe out our population in which it very well should of. Unless you're really going to sit here and argue that, that plan would of never worked?

Skynet's plan was simple and in its mind it achieved it. Nuke the world wipe humanity out. What skynet didn't expect was humanity to be alive still. That was its downfall it didn't even acknowledge them. As you saw in my post up above, I did add an line and the line was,

Although i did find the quote where humans indeed out numbered terminators, so maybe it was a different time line that i was getting the millions upon millions of terminators, so I do apologize. However, its possible that skynet could mass produce over time though no?

Skynet was still making bases and factories though and the war wasn't won in a single day, but it took decades for humanity to come on top and that's because john connor basically knew all the ins and outs of skynet if you read the quotes. In other timelines skynet was out doing humanity as well in the breeding aspect because humanity was losing. Which fits my point in the sense skynet can win it can lose, it just comes down to how well skynet reacts to the human slime.

John Conner, a single man, with asymmetric warfare [Your vietnam take doesn't work. Asymmetric warfare did not change modern warfare, at all. Asymmetric warfare has always existed {Even back in the bronze age} and the Vietnamese used it to great effect against the French and the Chinese before that and the Mongols before that and the Chinese... again before that. The main change to warfare thanks to Vietnam had nothing to do with the style of war fought and entirely because of the introduction of helicopters which brought in an era of rapid deployment never before seen in war] managed to consistently bring Skynet to the edge of defeat. Full stop. That isn't 'plot'. If it happens multiple times, that is limitations on Skynet's abilities. As annoying and dumb as it often can be,that is what they do, that is what they are capable of, that is whom they have gone up against and fallen short against. You have to take that into consideration, you don't get to ignore it because you don't like it.

A single man who knows skynet vs just some random joe.

I never said vietnam started that type of war. I said the US has to switch from how they fought in WW2 to how they fought in Vietnam.

I remember reading up that the US was use to setting up large military bases and so on and were use to fighting a front, a front that didnt really exist in viet nam due to politics and so on, as we played a more defensive role for the most part. Maybe im wrong in that aspect, I just remember that yes helicopters were being brought into full effect during vietnam, but the execution of how they were deployed rapidly and how troops were deployed rapidly in the sense of they didnt linger at all like we did during WW2 in fear of ambushes and so on, changed the style of the war and so on.

I understand what you're saying, but what im saying just like you stated for the Chimera, I feel Skynet has always won in open combat, something the Republic will do at first, and thats where i think they will shine, thats been my entire argument. I don't believe in the "they lost to tech com so they suck ass at everything." My entire argument is, in a straight up engagement they can pull their weight better for more than obvious reasons.

Because you can't just go, 'Plot'. That isn't a debate. The Chimera, do they have cool tech? Sure. Are they dangerous? Extremely. Do they use good small scale tactics? Yes. How is their overall strategy and planning? Pretty piss poor. They lose, every time, because of this poorly thought out grand strategy. I don't care if you think its dumb, it happened. Threetimes. So, what is the take away? Don't let Chimera plan the campaigns. Also, the Covenant don't suffer badly from that, internal division destroyed them, not plot armor. It actually fits rather well. Skynet, what is the takeaway? They preform poorly against guerrilla campaigns. IT doesn't take away from what they are good at, it doesn't make their teminators any less terminatory, but you don't get to go, 'Plot' and ignore the very serious issues these guys have.

The debate isn't plot, its just when a side loses because they literally can not win I don't know what to tell you from that point on. In no way do i think its dumb as well, not sure where you're getting the idea. I'm just saying from a logical stand point Skynet should of won, I understand why they didnt as the A.I struggles with certain points like understanding human will power and so on. Just I don't think they're really that trash is all.

You have points though and I accept them. In fact how would you rate strength and weaknesses for all these armies

Scrin

Skynet

Chimera

Protoss

Covenant

Locust Horde

Tau Empire

---

GAR

---

CIS

More to the point, my entire argument has been one single thing: They aren't needed. You can remove the Scrin, Skynet, Locust and the Chimera and nothing would change. Because they are not big enough factors to change the outcome. Do they help? Sure. Do they help by any tangible amount that would effect the outcome? No. If you removed them, would it change the outcome? No. If you added them to the other team, would it change the outcome? No.

My entire argument has been, skynet brings more to the table is all. If its not clear, ill say that again, skynet brings some benefits to the table that I think would serve the Covenant better and make their life a little easier.

Image result for boom roasted gif

Boom roasted.

I'm ignoring Skynet's timetravel for my own sanity because it makes it murky because most of the time it doesn't even work out for them and comes back to bite them even harder, just like I'm not going to use a hypothetical intergalactic Scrin that we know nothing about.

To be fair he said no hypothetical, so read the rules noob. :) Also Skynet always seems to live no matter what at the end of the day with time travel so... It kinda works? Plus GAR doesn't know about it. :)

But this has been my point, this entire time. You can argue that Skynet can do X and Y, but I will say... does it actually matter in the context of this thread?

Idk does having killer robots not matter? :)

Astromechs can also calculate Hyperspace jumps, something that takes serious computing power. So its not like they are protocol droids or something. Also, as has been established in SW, the longer a droid lives, the more it learns and picks up which is why memory wipes are needed to keep them 'factory'. So, a droid as old as R2D2 with, what is essentially a super computer, in his head? Yes, I'm not surprised he is so good at hacking.

Right, which a terminator does as well as we see with T2 and the quotes given as well,

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I'm was just curious is all because R2D2 his main purpose has always been an astromech and so on, much like Cortana I'm sure they both learn, just like skynet. Again my argument isnt skynet one shots, its that it learns as its capable of learning how to rehack or out hack Tech com hackers and thus take back its troops is all.

I was turning your statement back on you. You attempted to say, 'Maybe R2D2 is good at hacking because their cyber-security sucks'. So, I flipped it since in, our real earth, its not possible to fire a nuke without someone physically flipping all the switches and turning the key [in fact, this fail safe prevented WW3. I mean, literally, stopped WW3 because he didn't fire despite having supposed to which is exactly why this system is in place.] thus Skynet is only good at hacking because their cyber-security sucks. See how that doesn't work and is bad debating? Yes, why I said you probably should think about trying it.

Wait can i turn the statement back on you? :) My point is all these military hard core locked doors and han solo can do this,

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Despite R2D2 getting shot. My point is, the republic's security systems are near featless aren't they as every time R2D2 hacks something what effect has it displayed not to be able to be cracked by someone else in the first place? Is it because they lack the tools to do so or brains or both? We don't know because they just say R2D2 do it! Now I'm going to use your famous quote broski

"Just because its in the future doesn't make it instantly better." Remember that during a mass effect debate! >:)

The plan was to have it fight the war for them, but in the third movie, they gave it the power before it was really ready so that it could crush a virus [that was actually Skynet, itself]. So... yes, that does put context onto the situation.

I understand, im just saying skynet has displayed ability to hack is all. My entire point is, I have yet to see what makes star wars hacking superior other than being into the future is all.

As for the Chimera, you can lose campaigns and still win the war. They eventually won, but they suffered numerous failed campaigns.

I understand, I just thought they swept the world over is all in like one strike basically.

XD Because they are nasty? Honestly, not sure, I don't know if its because its painful or.. if I had to randomly guess, murder. If you utterly disintegrate someone, it'd be hard to you as you aren't leaving much evidence behind which would make it really good for assassins [bounty hunters really like them, IIRC]

Hold up, which gun we talking about here?

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#85 Posted by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: Nope, you're wrong and here is why: They are called the Covenant because humanity, us, didn't know their name, ergo, they attached a name that fit with the closest thing to their history they could think of, just like, me saying they went on a Jihad, why? Because humanity, that is you and me, by the way, do not have their word for it, ergo, we must use the closest thing in our tongue that aptly describes their actions and motivations hence Jihad/Crusade. So... git gud scrub.

They are so large that, remember in the second movie, when the idea that something wasn't in it then it 'must not exist'? They are massive. Just think about how old the republic and jedi order is and the fact the Jedi are keepers of knowledge.. Yeah, lots of stuff in there.

Because when they conflict, legends would take place. It does not, however, mean you get to ignore the normal canon. For instance, Episode III is canon, not legends, however do we ignore how Anakin killed Dooku because, technically, the only time he did it was in canon sources and therefor it never happened? The second you take a stance that the movies [which are canon] don't count... that should tell you to rethink your stance mate.

Congrats, Skynet is a bad planner and didn't run the correct calculations that should have told it we don't have enough nukes primed and ready to go to kill every person on the planet, much less, every town. Are there enough nukes in the world? Probably. Are there enough ICBMS locked and loaded? Hell no. Which goes back to what I said, Skynet failing to account for things? Skynet failing to adapt? That isn't plot. That is an aspect to Skynet that doesn't get to be ignored 'just cause'. Is it 'plot' that humanity lives to fight Skynet? Of course, obviously, that is how stories work. However, you don't get to ignore facets of it as just 'plot' and take what you like and ignore the rest. Cherry picking is bad.

So, this super awesome AI that you have been hyping up.. can be read like an open book by a single man and.... this supports your idea that Skynet will walk around hacking everything.... how, exactly?

Not the same. The reason troops didn't linger is because of helicopters. You don't have to linger. You get in, you blow stuff up, you get out and head back to base. That is what Helicopters did to war. The most combat doctrine has ever changed was during WW2 due to all the new technology, but even then, the US had faced guerrillas before [Native Americans]. Vietnam had a lot of issues, mostly political, and none of it was focused on them being unable to face the Vietcong's tactics. But a straight up engagement where? Groundside. In a battle that doesn't matter because whomever won space won the battle for whatever planet they are on. This ties back to exactly what I said earlier, are they helpful? Sure. Do they make a difference? No. Not really.

But they didn't. They lost. Which is something that you have to account for. They had all the advantages, and they still lost. You can't ignore that by shrugging and saying 'plot'. In a normal discussion, certainly you could and you'd be right, but where you have to examine what they can do, what they normally do and what they have done in the past in a debate? You have to look at it. You can't ignore it. For instance, some Imperial Guard Regiments are garbage. Just hot garbage that would get dumpstered by a US Marine company, I can't ignore how they have preformed in the past [such as mass bayonet charges] in favor what they 'should' be capable of doing. [This doesn't work in all cases, if they specify a regiment that is much better then these guys then that changes things, however, you have to take the good with the bad, the 'plot' with their actions]

Scrin

- Interesting units that would be hard to counter without specialized equipment [their buzzer swarms, for instance]

- Theoretically massive scale

- However the forces we see are just a mining force leaving them as nothing but theoretical strength and the ships we do see are pretty.. weak as they can be threatened and destroyed by GDI/Nod level weaponry.

Skynet

- Strong 'infantry' assets.

- Good infantry weaponry and proven cyberwarfare abilities

- However they are pretty awful at adapting to things that preform outside of their expectations... Fond of reusing plans that have failed and expecting different outcomes... Also no navy, kind of important.

Chimera

- Strong Infantry and Monsters

- Good Infantry Weaponry and Bio-weaponry

- However they are god awful at strategy and tend to make their plans capable of being wiped out if a single thing goes wrong at a critical moment [Hey Deathstar!] Also, no real navy and the only navy we have ever seen has done nothing to suggest it is remotely enough to compete with military grade star ships of the GAR.

Protoss

- Good tech, especially in teleportation

- Has various psychic powers

- Good fleet tech

- However they are very low in numbers with limited assets

Covenant

- Large number of varied forces with good equipment

- Very large fleet capable of going toe to toe with the GAR and doing very well

- Large industrial power to fuel such a grand scale war

- Large enough population base to fuel said industry.

- Very war focused culture allowing them to better endure the strain

Due to the OP removing In-Fighting, they don't really have any major weaknesses outside of a few poor design choices but everyone has that.

Locust Horde

- Large number of strong infantry and monsters

- However they lack space travel and any real tech nohow to help outside of being manual labor.

Tau Empire

- Good tech

- Good fleet tech

- However they are low in numbers with very slow FTL

---

GAR

- Large fleet

- Massive potential industrial power

- Massive population pool to fuel said industrial power

- Reliable galactic scale communications

- Theoretical ability to mass produce droids for both production and war purposes [if they ever chose to go back down that route]

- Superior knowledge on the galaxy. Other team has a star map, but they don't know the planets like the GAR does.

---

CIS

- Large fleet

- Wealthy and unified with a clear purpose and goals

- Massive potential industrial power

- Theoretically unlimited soldiers

- However decided to give their droid soldiers some.. questionable programming. Designed to fail by a Sith.

So... you weren't debating against me at all? But rather just wanted to do...... mmmmmmm something?

Then I'm going to keep ignoring time travel and Scrin. If Skynet lives on some backwater outer rim world, no one cares. XD

Idk, does it matter that the GAR is more then capable of mass producing their own?

And he learned.... why people cry which, I mean, are you telling me Skynet sent its terminator that is meant to be disguised as a human without telling it basic human responses and social ques? So... Derp Skynet?

The fact that every time R2D2 hacks into something he has to hardwire into it meaning all their systems are closed systems? So, GG, No Rez.

You have the guy in TOR who managed to hack himself into the 'nexus' of the gathered star wars internet in Nar Shaddaa and was capable of knowing dang near everything everywhere as he was 'in' the security codes.

Nope. They invaded, took more of Europe [and likely Asia] but were stopped for awhile by a wall, they then got past the wall and conquered the rest of Europe save England. The USA joined the war and landed troops on England to help it hold out against the Chimera [which is the first game]. Second game takes place after the fall of England when the Chimera finally managed to get a foothold on the USA. Their invasion force is defeated. Three then happens which is after two where the Chimera invaded again, and this time, won because the last ditch assault by the US to wipe them all out failed which is.. what you do in the 3 game, just finish that last mission the US failed to do. It took awhile. Timeline wise, the Chimera begin their assault on Russia in 1927, 1950 is when Europe falls, 1953 is when the second game ends. So, it took them awhile. Mind, they went a lot faster after they had set up their steam roll [via the fall of Russia where the European response was... 'Meh, put up a wall, not our problem']. Honestly, if the Europeans and US had helped in that early stage, humanity wouldn't have lost.

Disruptor

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#86 Posted by N7Elite (111 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean protoss were doing great but two things screwed them over. First during the brood wars a warp gate opened up and the zerg just used their vast numbers and took out the protoss when they were at their most unguarded part. The next time amon used the Khala of light and enslaved those protoss.

Keep in mind protoss are still useful even if they die or become unable to be front line units as their regular selves. you got immortals, dragoons, stalkers, the purifier project , and so much more. each of the four protoss races have a better understanding of one another and during all of this conflict Artantis was their "leader" in a sense he called the shots but headed their council. So with Alarak, Vorzual, Felix, and Artantis working together they will face the protoss warships of different varieties, the full might of the golden armada, and just leave death in their wake. Though few they are said to be the Protoss have taken on billions of Zerg, terran armadas and fought amon face to face. They done pretty good despite it all.

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#87 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: I apologize for the delay.

Nope, you're wrong and here is why: They are called the Covenant because humanity, us, didn't know their name, ergo, they attached a name that fit with the closest thing to their history they could think of, just like, me saying they went on a Jihad, why? Because humanity, that is you and me, by the way, do not have their word for it, ergo, we must use the closest thing in our tongue that aptly describes their actions and motivations hence Jihad/Crusade. So... git gud scrub.

Technically speaking, the Prophets wanted to wipe them out not out of pure hatred but because they knew humanity was the key for accessing forerunner tech. It was more of lets remove this dirty secret quickly and just say they're heretics, so in other words, try again nub. :)

They are so large that, remember in the second movie, when the idea that something wasn't in it then it 'must not exist'? They are massive. Just think about how old the republic and jedi order is and the fact the Jedi are keepers of knowledge.. Yeah, lots of stuff in there.

True, that is a lot of records, but surely you can't record everything eh? EH EH?!?!

Because when they conflict, legends would take place. It does not, however, mean you get to ignore the normal canon. For instance, Episode III is canon, not legends, however do we ignore how Anakin killed Dooku because, technically, the only time he did it was in canon sources and therefor it never happened? The second you take a stance that the movies [which are canon] don't count... that should tell you to rethink your stance mate.

I understand movies fall into that aspect, but my question is where does TCW wars fall under, because there was the old 2003 version which I felt represented the legends aspect while this new one represented the canon aspect? I'm just more confused rather than picking and ignoring which goes where. I mean from my point of view TCW has always been canon, which belongs in canon era, which means all those missions and shit that they did in TCW happened in canon but happened differently or didnt exist during the Legends as it wasn't part of that material. It would be like saying. I want canon Vong and I want it now. No the Vong aren't both canon and legends, they are strictly legends because they existed in that lore aspect, but bottom line I just wasn't sure where TCW stands on that is all.

Congrats, Skynet is a bad planner and didn't run the correct calculations that should have told it we don't have enough nukes primed and ready to go to kill every person on the planet, much less, every town. Are there enough nukes in the world? Probably. Are there enough ICBMS locked and loaded? Hell no. Which goes back to what I said, Skynet failing to account for things? Skynet failing to adapt? That isn't plot. That is an aspect to Skynet that doesn't get to be ignored 'just cause'. Is it 'plot' that humanity lives to fight Skynet? Of course, obviously, that is how stories work. However, you don't get to ignore facets of it as just 'plot' and take what you like and ignore the rest. Cherry picking is bad.

You don't need to nuke every city though, there's a reason why the East Coast major cities were targets for dropping nukes and not every single town. I mean the radiation, the mass destruction of human life, animals, plants, etc all affected by the nukes would cause more than enough harm wouldnt it? Especially since Skynet targeted everyone. Like I said skynet failed to account for human will power, is that really something against skynet or something skynet has yet to experience?? Its not like Skynet had fought humanity before, this is its very own first war and its very first interaction with humanity. Regardless skynet technically won at first as they managed to gather the remaining humans into camps and work them to death until John set free to a ton of camps and applied his skills into defeating Skynet.

My entire point on "plot" is this, its two things A villain isn't bad if they are doomed to lose, Example Obi wan vs Darth Maul. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that Maul was going to kill Obi Wan, why? Because Maul was doomed to lose due to the fact Obi Wan was presented later in the lore to be alive via the first few movies.

Secondly as I've said before, I find it extremely hard that humanity could survive with technically only two people knowing whats about to happen, John and his Mother.

That's just me though, that's where we differ in view point I feel which is fine. Yours makes sense, but mine is better because you're a scrub. :)

So, this super awesome AI that you have been hyping up.. can be read like an open book by a single man and.... this supports your idea that Skynet will walk around hacking everything.... how, exactly?

When did I hype skynet? I think you're confusing me for wanking skynet which i said clearly isn't the case. I said over time he could get use to Republic CPUs and so on, that I haven't really seen anything all that impressive from the Star wars universe. You know unlike the warhammer universe where we see robot aids.... I mean robot aids.... Lol. There's much more than that in the 40k universe, but from the Star wars universe, sure they got deadly droids, but I'm not seeing how their hacking is so far advanced that skynet can't even hope to grasp it. I think over time a learning A.I like skynet could, but more of a point, what did I say way back? I said is he going to one shot everything hes going to touch? No, its going to take time just like everything else. Skynet only adds some options to help the Covenant win the wars, what was my points again?

I mean take a look at this,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaeNI97PeQs <--- skip to 3:05. Skynet had what again? Spread into, not 10, not 100, not whatever, but millions. Millions of what? Millions of computer servers the very second, not an hour later, not a year later, but within the VERY second it became self aware or "alive." It spread across the ENTIRE planet, hitting every PC no matter their location and so on. Now why this matters is because as we argued up above, different time lines and no matter what judgement day happens which means skynet is capable of going about it in different ways so to speak. As we saw in T1 and T2 it was directly connected to the DoD and so on, but in T3 it didn't have to be, it just made its way throughout everywhere and everything spreading across the globe not just the US network.

  • Man labor that never tires and by logical standards can't really make mistakes when working on large scale production.
  • unique terminators that can learn with every interaction with their foes which in turn allows spec ops missions to happen; remember when they needed dogs to tell the difference between terminator and non terminator in the first movie? Yeah they can get good, not right off the bat, but they can.
  • A.I aspect as the Covenant battlenet kinda sucks ass, Tau can obviously help here as well.

That's it man, I'm not sure where you're getting the hype from. I'm just saying Skynet isn't useless and can learn over time. We know this via various weapons of war that have snuffed out humanity and killed them in various ways.

John connor unlike skynet had multiple times to prep for Skynet, so yes hes going to know how skynet works while everyone else did not. We know this because of,

Not the same. The reason troops didn't linger is because of helicopters. You don't have to linger. You get in, you blow stuff up, you get out and head back to base. That is what Helicopters did to war. The most combat doctrine has ever changed was during WW2 due to all the new technology, but even then, the US had faced guerrillas before [Native Americans]. Vietnam had a lot of issues, mostly political, and none of it was focused on them being unable to face the Vietcong's tactics. But a straight up engagement where? Groundside. In a battle that doesn't matter because whomever won space won the battle for whatever planet they are on. This ties back to exactly what I said earlier, are they helpful? Sure. Do they make a difference? No. Not really.

Ill state again, viet nam's guerrilla war was nothing new. I never stated that type of war was different. I stated the doctrine of how the US fought it was. Yes helicopters were the key to this because of exactly what they could. If i can find the info to support this entire thing I would, and right now I'm struggling to find it. Once I do Ill post it in PM as this doesn't really directly relate to the debate I guess.

I can settle with this I guess, as I can't seem to find the quotes nor lore to really support Skynet's ability to aid the Covenant in places that are game changers as of right now.

But they didn't. They lost. Which is something that you have to account for. They had all the advantages, and they still lost. You can't ignore that by shrugging and saying 'plot'. In a normal discussion, certainly you could and you'd be right, but where you have to examine what they can do, what they normally do and what they have done in the past in a debate? You have to look at it. You can't ignore it. For instance, some Imperial Guard Regiments are garbage. Just hot garbage that would get dumpstered by a US Marine company, I can't ignore how they have preformed in the past [such as mass bayonet charges] in favor what they 'should' be capable of doing. [This doesn't work in all cases, if they specify a regiment that is much better then these guys then that changes things, however, you have to take the good with the bad, the 'plot' with their actions]

By that same logic, this means the Empire is complete and utter dog shit and that it can't even stand up to the Covenant or in fact the UNSC because MC is the new Luke and hes going to one shot death stars and so on.

Mhh i wasn't aware that IG regiments were that bad. Alright I agree with this.

Skynet

- Strong 'infantry' assets.

- Good infantry weaponry and proven cyberwarfare abilities

- However they are pretty awful at adapting to things that preform outside of their expectations... Fond of reusing plans that have failed and expecting different outcomes... Also no navy, kind of important.

What the OP tried to show was this,

https://www.google.com/search?q=Skynet+space+ships&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9yev-6a3iAhWSKDQIHRMNDRcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1920&bih=969#imgrc=qYO3PUNBXx0D4M:

It's blury and hard to tell, but blame google.

Now curious how would the lesser ones that don't make a big impact for the Covenant help the Covenant out per say? Meaning how would the Chimera, Skynet, Scrin, and Locust make the Covenant's life easier?

So... you weren't debating against me at all? But rather just wanted to do...... mmmmmmm something?

I wanted to fancy you with exchanging in a very debatable way, but it isn't debating. :)

Then I'm going to keep ignoring time travel and Scrin. If Skynet lives on some backwater outer rim world, no one cares. XD

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Like I care, I already said the Protoss solo. If you got an issue fight me. XD

Idk, does it matter that the GAR is more then capable of mass producing their own?

But they don't. Remember they decide not to do this, we can't account for something they've never displayed wut, that's only guessing which is about as good as saying Skynet's time travel is 100% useful. :) Git Gud nub.

And he learned.... why people cry which, I mean, are you telling me Skynet sent its terminator that is meant to be disguised as a human without telling it basic human responses and social ques? So... Derp Skynet?

Right, as ill say before. Humanity needed dogs to discover the better cases of the T-850s as they were getting better with human emotion and so on. Their purpose was to get better at replicating human social ques. It also has basic human responses come on wut you know this from T2 where the T-850 displayed a serious of words on the side in which to choose from to gain better knowledge. I mean we even know this when the T-850 tricks the T-1000 with asking about the family's dog and so on, only right after for the T-1000 to figure out it had been tricked.

The fact that every time R2D2 hacks into something he has to hardwire into it meaning all their systems are closed systems? So, GG, No Rez.

Check up above. :)

You have the guy in TOR who managed to hack himself into the 'nexus' of the gathered star wars internet in Nar Shaddaa and was capable of knowing dang near everything everywhere as he was 'in' the security codes.

Let me make this clear. Hacking something vs something hard to hack. What is so hard about hacking into star wars systems other than "its the future." That's what I've been trying to ask. I don't rely know TOR nor the star wars universe as a whole outside the movies, and the lore presented in debates. I don't understand what makes Hacking A harder than hacking B. I mean technically speaking Commander Shepard hacks into shit all the time, and that's WAY into the future. does this mean he's gonna hack every single Star wars thing out there because I said so? No, but if the hacking for both universes is similar and they don't realy share anything super impressive then I find it kind of silly that an actual A.I self learning would struggle on its own home turf?

Nope. They invaded, took more of Europe [and likely Asia] but were stopped for awhile by a wall, they then got past the wall and conquered the rest of Europe save England. The USA joined the war and landed troops on England to help it hold out against the Chimera [which is the first game]. Second game takes place after the fall of England when the Chimera finally managed to get a foothold on the USA. Their invasion force is defeated. Three then happens which is after two where the Chimera invaded again, and this time, won because the last ditch assault by the US to wipe them all out failed which is.. what you do in the 3 game, just finish that last mission the US failed to do. It took awhile. Timeline wise, the Chimera begin their assault on Russia in 1927, 1950 is when Europe falls, 1953 is when the second game ends. So, it took them awhile. Mind, they went a lot faster after they had set up their steam roll [via the fall of Russia where the European response was... 'Meh, put up a wall, not our problem']. Honestly, if the Europeans and US had helped in that early stage, humanity wouldn't have lost.

I see okay, as for the tacticians would you say the Locust have a better chain of command compared to the Scrin, Skynet, and Chimera?

Disruptor

Gotcha.

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#88 Edited by Wut (7261 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: What? You mean like how the Crusades started not as a way to reclaim the holy land or beat up heretics but instead to help the Byzantine Empire against the encroaching Turks but that reason was kept on the down low? :P Try again, noob.

I'm pretty sure I said earlier that every little thing was unlikely to be in there because that just isn't how reality works, but every little thing doesn't need to be in there, just the right things, and I'm sure notable stuff, like special tech or force rituals, would have priority.

The Vong sucked. It was badly written and portrayed. Unless you mean you want a Vong style threat [so... Star Wars Tyranids, I guess] that is better written this time? You.. do know a lot of things hold 'canon' status in both Canon and Legends, right? TCW is one of those.

Has yet to experience? What? When it was in the internet, making its plan, did it fail to examine history and properly study its enemy which it would have been free to do? Uh, yes, that is an obvious and fairly embarrassing oversight because it was not its first time. It was in the internet [The virus going around in the third movie], it had access to Google and Wikipedia. Failure to attempt to study your enemy even when the resources are at your feat does not a great commander make. It apparently did a worse job then a high school student writing a history report.

I didn't say it was 'bad'. I said it managed to fail pretty spectacularly numerous times. Which is something that has to be taken into account.

Some of them are hot garbage. Like UNSC Marines forming an infantry square against Covenant Ghost levels of hot garbage [Which happened]. Google Kubrik Chenkov for an example of this in action. This guy once forced his own troops to clear explosives by making them march across the minefield so his tanks could pass [rather then just go around or slow down and let them clear the minefield without using their bodies].

Make their life easier? Eh... manpower? That is a large labor force that can be directed and they can be used to garrison worlds, but hard to say as a lot of the time, the question of 'are they worth the resources it would take to instruct them, train them and then deploy them rather then just use our own' is a valid one.

Then what are you trying to debate? If we are saying 'they've never done that before, ever, even if they had the capability, but they are now up against a totally new opponent fighting in a new way which would change things.. but it doesn't count' then, by that logic, no one here does anything as the Covenant are busy making a mess out of looking for Forerunner tech that isn't here anymore, Locust go and dig themselves into a hole, etc, because that is all they've shown to do.

So, you telling me drug dealers can manage to trick dogs but a super advanced AI couldn't figure out how to deceive them?

The fact that everything in Star wars seems to run on a closed system which means you have to physically be there to do anything? [Which is why whenever someone hacks something they have to insert a data spike into it] <- That, right there, alone, makes it incredibly hard to hack anything. Its the same system used today by the more secure government and corporate locations. Their information doesn't get out because external people hack their systems. They get out because some employee does something dumb [Human Error]. For reference on how this works: Compare Wi-Fi to an Ethernet cord. Wi-Fi just goes everywhere, so all you have to do is get the code and log in. An Ethernet cord would be that 'closed system'. There is no wi-fi password because there is no wi-fi. You have no way of getting to that modem besides through that cord so in order to 'get in' you have to physically be there, by that modem, with that cord. [This is an example, so you understand why X is harder then Y].

Skynet, Scrin and Chimera are all some form of 'Hive Mind' [Scrin is more remote control]... so no? Their chain of command is pretty perfect and gets rid of any mess-ups of someone misunderstanding orders extremely well.

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#89 Edited by Wolfrazer (16494 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: I wouldn’t say TCW falls under old C-Canon continuity where everything else is, because it’s in its own separate bracket and therefore doesn’t have to follow what C-Canon established. Which they did pretty much cover the entire war up to ROTS anyway.

The movies are both and that’s because they are the foundation which is built upon.

Don’t have to go with my way of thinking, but if one thinks about it, it makes a lot more sense than saying TCW is both. I mean yeah it technically is both, but it’s not C-Canon both.

Anything else that speaks about TCW like books or sourcebooks etc...well that’s what S and N Canon is for, use them accordingly.

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#90 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Ah my old friend, ill begin to address this soon. Work's been a pain in my ass lately so I guess I got to take it out on you. :)

Image result for full power of the dark side gif sidious vs yodaImage result for full power of the dark side gif sidious vs yoda

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#91 Posted by Oraculi (7046 posts) - - Show Bio

TCS godstomp.

Time travel and infiltrators will be too ocp

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#92 Posted by MErulezall (3845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut:

What? You mean like how the Crusades started not as a way to reclaim the holy land or beat up heretics but instead to help the Byzantine Empire against the encroaching Turks but that reason was kept on the down low? :P Try again, noob.

Well lets not ignore the fact that one of the crusades just in fact sacked the Byzantine's Capital so... I mean... Come on now so much for a holy war when its entirely based on money right? The Covenant are far above such petty money and would rather just burn everything to the ground. :)

I'm pretty sure I said earlier that every little thing was unlikely to be in there because that just isn't how reality works, but every little thing doesn't need to be in there, just the right things, and I'm sure notable stuff, like special tech or force rituals, would have priority.

Fair enough, tbh i completely forgot about those records until you brought them up is all.

The Vong sucked. It was badly written and portrayed. Unless you mean you want a Vong style threat [so... Star Wars Tyranids, I guess] that is better written this time? You.. do know a lot of things hold 'canon' status in both Canon and Legends, right? TCW is one of those.

One could hope someone would do the Vong justice, but I have doubts that'd ever happen as even if they were given a W the Star wars universe would end prolly. I thought legends and Canon were split as the lore either falls under one or the other per say besides the movies as they are the main overall lore? So for example the 2003 star wars clone wars would fall under legends as it is written and made before disney took over and then lets say star wars rebels falls under Canon as it was made after disney and differs from the timeline of legends? If I seemed confused I do apologize, but I was just under the impression the two didnt mix well. Otherwise why really split them if they aren't really all that different and u can draw feats from both despite one being one and the other being the other?

Has yet to experience? What? When it was in the internet, making its plan, did it fail to examine history and properly study its enemy which it would have been free to do? Uh, yes, that is an obvious and fairly embarrassing oversight because it was not its first time. It was in the internet [The virus going around in the third movie], it had access to Google and Wikipedia. Failure to attempt to study your enemy even when the resources are at your feat does not a great commander make. It apparently did a worse job then a high school student writing a history report.

Battle experience and engaging in a war. Example, we have officers in the military being trained in military doctrine and so on correct? They can be trained for a 100 years, but they will never gain the full experience until they've done their first few engagements. Skynet examined all of history, but it states it could not predict human nature and how hard pressed they'd be to fight on. It simply underestimated humanity's will power.

I didn't say it was 'bad'. I said it managed to fail pretty spectacularly numerous times. Which is something that has to be taken into account.

This would be fine if skynet was hunting someone. Skynet doesn't have to hunt someone to apply its time travel effectively? In fact it could just make time travel and have a protoss soldier or warrior itself go back in time, share its mind via TP and give the team a tactical advantage? Could this not happen, would it happen? I think so.

Some of them are hot garbage. Like UNSC Marines forming an infantry square against Covenant Ghost levels of hot garbage [Which happened]. Google Kubrik Chenkov for an example of this in action. This guy once forced his own troops to clear explosives by making them march across the minefield so his tanks could pass [rather then just go around or slow down and let them clear the minefield without using their bodies].

Image result for but why gif

Thats prolly the worst two examples I've seen ever. That's the kind of stupid shit you would see a 5 year old do... Lol.

Make their life easier? Eh... manpower? That is a large labor force that can be directed and they can be used to garrison worlds, but hard to say as a lot of the time, the question of 'are they worth the resources it would take to instruct them, train them and then deploy them rather then just use our own' is a valid one.

This is true, but like I said before. Skynet's terminators are less likely to make mistakes due to programming, don't need sleep, and can move constantly for over 250 years. That's money well spent, sure its an investment, but still money well spent if mass produced.

Then what are you trying to debate? If we are saying 'they've never done that before, ever, even if they had the capability, but they are now up against a totally new opponent fighting in a new way which would change things.. but it doesn't count' then, by that logic, no one here does anything as the Covenant are busy making a mess out of looking for Forerunner tech that isn't here anymore, Locust go and dig themselves into a hole, etc, because that is all they've shown to do.

I wouldn't call this a debate, as clearly I overestimated skynet's tools. I just felt they were being overlooked is all.

So, you telling me drug dealers can manage to trick dogs but a super advanced AI couldn't figure out how to deceive them?

Yes and no, skynet was making more advanced models but they still all had metal or made of it at its core, even T-1000s. There's a reason why they kept pushing their limits to create basically "humans" to serve skynet to by pass this. Ofc none of this really matters as skynet's program in tricking humans in order to find their underground bases in fact worked. I mean its not like humanity did the same thing, they tried to sneak pass skynet defenses and managed to fail other than leading a surprise attack.

The fact that everything in Star wars seems to run on a closed system which means you have to physically be there to do anything? [Which is why whenever someone hacks something they have to insert a data spike into it] <- That, right there, alone, makes it incredibly hard to hack anything. Its the same system used today by the more secure government and corporate locations. Their information doesn't get out because external people hack their systems. They get out because some employee does something dumb [Human Error]. For reference on how this works: Compare Wi-Fi to an Ethernet cord. Wi-Fi just goes everywhere, so all you have to do is get the code and log in. An Ethernet cord would be that 'closed system'. There is no wi-fi password because there is no wi-fi. You have no way of getting to that modem besides through that cord so in order to 'get in' you have to physically be there, by that modem, with that cord. [This is an example, so you understand why X is harder then Y].

Ah okay, this was the answer I was looking for.

Sorry for the late response, life got busy for me.