The Clone Wars, Redone! Who wins!

People whom might be interested

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Team 1 has way better tech in my opinion so I'm giving it to them. Chimera, Tau, and Covenant? That's a pretty nasty combination that I wouldn't want to go up against. The Legends Republic definitely puts up more of a fight than Canon though.

Adding the CIS really doesn't change much since based on the map they'll be pressed extremely hard by both the Republic and Covenant.

@fullmetalemprah: True, but lets not forget the CIS was heavily restricted via Palps in how they were to operate, said restriction I forgot to add into the rules would be removed, so whatever they planned on doing, they can do whatever with Count Dooku at the helm of it all. I also forgot to add no jobbing for either side my bad! :(

However, I do like your answer, would the republic for Legends put up a good fight?

The Tau in terms of force size is extremely insignificant however, their FTL is snail speed and they have some severe doctrinal issues that would give them some problems.

A single mid level crusade level force from the Imperium nearly wiped out a quadrant of the Empire, and would have if not for a freak (cough, eldar induced, cough) warpstom cut off their supply lines and hampered their advance. The force merely consisted of around a dozen capital ships IIRC, about 5 companies of Space Marines supported by nineteen regiments of Imperial Guard. The Tau ships are ill suited to any combat that isn't at extreme range

@swa2point0: Yeah but in this scenario they're being pressed on all sides by two extremely powerful opponents since for the most part the Covenant and Republic need to get through them to get to each other. The CIS have great industrial capabilities which will certainly help them since they aren't jobbing but considering they still had issues with the Republic overall I don't see them holding out against both the GAR and the massively powerful alien alliance that just occupied all of Hutt Space.

Yeah Legends would definitely put up more of a fight in my opinion, they'd need the added numbers and firepower since a lot of the tech the aliens have access to is extremely advanced. I mean the clones are going to have massive issues on the ground since each race covers the others' weaknesses quite well.

@decaf_wizard: Except it's not just the Tau here, they have several other races backing them up, including the Covenant, who have both good FTL travel and a huge military. However to make up for their disadvantages the Tau have amazing technology(most Republic vehicles aren't surviving railguns that powerful), great commanders and the fact that they can utilize their preferred methods of fighting with the Protoss while the Covenant, Locust, Chimera, and Skynet hold the line.

Edit: To be fair to the Tau that was right after first contact with the Imperium iirc and after that they built up their military(especially their navy) considerably. Stuff like Mantas and their newer battlesuit variants are extremely deadly. Sure they wouldn't stand a chance if the Imperium wanted them wiped out but they have gotten stronger since their first encounter.

@fullmetalemprah said:

They struggled with the GAR cause sidious played them, you are right though they are kinda screwed in that aspect, but that don't mean they couldn't fall back to a certain area and reform a battle line which I feel Dooku would certainty due from what we've seen even with the Battle of Geonosis, he ordered a retreat due to the fact he knew the Republic was pushing hard and winning

This is just my thoughts though, if the CIS play it right they could still remain a major player and a thorn in each side, and since no one is allowed to truce there wouldn't be any ganging up ofc

Thoughts on who wins Mr. Decaf?

The pubs have it too stacked against them IMO. Tau are shit overall, but their allies allow them to survive as an elite fighting force here

@decaf_wizard: Even legends? Thoughts on the three way war?

The problem is that the republic is internally divided and ineffectual, similarly to how the Imperium of Man is. Only issue is that they dont have the Inquisitors and whatnot to get shit done when needed. You would run into issues, as the pubs did often in the Clone Wars.

If it was SPECIFIC times I could see the republic standing a much better shot, but you have to realize that even durring the Rusaan Campaign, the republic was largely ineffectual as a wartime bureaucracy

Sidious interfering definitely played a role in the defeat of the CIS, but the overall doctrine of the CIS military was quantity over quality the majority of the time even without his influence. This is because the CIS was being ran by a bunch of traders, bankers, economists, etc. Of course the droid army has its fair share of quality weapons and machines, I mean they have B2's, Droidekas, Magnaguard, etc. I mean, even though they're portrayed as fodder most of the time even their tanks are actually pretty decent if go off of their armament and armor. Most of the time though they went for the cheaper, more cost-effective option.

With all of that being said though, the GAR still matched them and honestly I doubt even with their new freedom here that the CIS can fight a two front war as brutal as the one they'd be fighting here.

@decaf_wizard said:

But it is??? It's Clone Wars Era Republic?

Clone Wars Era republic is not one of those times. Ever even listen to Padme now and again? Im talking about the republic as they were unified against the Vong, or as the Empire under Sheev, or during the Great Galactic War

Coventry wins here, not a stomp but it would be inexorable and inevitable. This really is a deadly coalition, everyone backing each other up well.

@decaf_wizard: Eh can you really count when they were united against the Vong? They weren't exactly spectacular there either. I'm not sure about the GGW Republic either.

@decaf_wizard said:

I apologize, i was confused on what you mean. Although you got a point, but this is a new threat, they have no idea about and not a civil war which could lead to more unity

Team wins legends puts up a good fight but team has the tech to do so

@wolfrazer said:

How well do you think the Republic does?

As for canon, what you think of the bonus round?

@swa2point0: I don't have a real good call for this, as I don't know anything about the other side.

@wolfrazer said:

Ah okay, would the republic be more unified though against an unknown threat?

I'm sorry sir, I missed your comment! do you think the covenant would have to work for it pretty hard?

@swa2point0: Just another point on the Tau, they really have three major issues with the way their armies work

• The Tau Earth Caste tend to build big/quality rather than quantity, to a point of detrimental effects. Quality is good, but not at a the cost of minuscule quantity
  
  
• The Tau have really little answer to superheavy armour aside from Riptide Class (XV104, 107 and 109) and even they don't fare all that well against Titan level armour. Furthermore, Riptides are extremely scarce due to the materials needed to make them being rare. They recently made the KX139 after being consistently rape trained by Tyranid Bio-Titans and Imperial Knights/Titans, but they are even more rare and main weapons systems rely on secondary reactors that are powered by Dark Matter, which will have rather horrid consequences on anything within a couple dozen miles when they are breached. During the Damocles Crusade, they had to resort to basically bombing runs with battleships to even hope to deal with Imperial Heavy Armour, which brought very large and valuable aircraft in the range of Titan grade weaponry
  
  
• Its worth mentioning, although not as a full point, that they Tau outright struggle with powerful energy shielding on enemy units

• Attritional Warfare will decimate the Tau and they are very poorly equipped to deal with it, which is why they stay mobile at all costs. Furthermore, they outright fall flat on their face when they are faced by forces that can maneuver faster than they can or insert themselves into their positions, such as the Dark Eldar Raiders or Space Marine drop pod assaults

@decaf_wizard: all good points if this was a tau vs Republic fight. I also dont believe tau weaponry will struggle against republic armor, it is no where near titan grade. (As an IG player there were plenty of times I wished AP was more of an issue for the tau lol). Heck, basic pulse rifles will probably perforate most enemy armor here.

Utilized as elite ground troops, the tau allow this coalition to dominate planetside conflicts...leave the space fighting to the rest.

@swa2point0: pretty much a certain victory in my opinion for the Coventry side. I think Protoss/tau coalition alone could do it as the quality of firepower and tactical acumen is just so lopsided. Tau or protoss alone have large exploitable weaknesses...together they provide for one another. That said the only other faction I really know here is the Scrin who would be of further use. No idea about locusts or chimereans.

@six-deuce said:

The Chimera and locust provide more of a numbers game with decent planetary transportation via monsters and so on. Taking planets wont necessary mean victory, but if they choose to go planet side they have some big stuff to help with that along with the Tau and Protoss and so on

Got to represent my protoss faction for while Cov definitionally has the numbers, ships and is the main force here.

The Protoss are going to be your shock infy, covert ops, and counters to force users. One pylon will screw over the republic home-worlds for then invasions will begin galaxy wide.

Consider this that this is a united Protoss Empire, and that means every protoss upgrade, soldier, and leader is present and that is a powerhouse that most of the other factions lack. So you will see them fighting Jedi and while Artantis isn't as strong as Anakin, Yoda, Windu, and Obi Wan he will put up a hell of a fight against them. More so than anyone on the Cov side.

@n7elite: yeah, protoss carrier group piloted by one guy is pretty hax. Who in your opinion would be leading the protoss? It is a huge boon for the Coventry that there is no infighting as well. Shadowsun cooperating with allied leadership would be terrific tactical advantage as well.

@six-deuce: That would be Artantis. He was the leader of the joint force against Amon, and though they are split Alarak wouldn't mind working with the others and Artantis. The Spear of Adun is a nice ship that is armored to the teeth and provides tactical advantages in space if not killed off. It has it's own private army, a star forge, and more. Dark Templar are going to be perfect assassins and scouts for the protoss war forces.

The Aiur protoss upgraded Zealots are going to be swinging their maces like it's nobodies business. Plus Archons will be shredding the Republics lines. For I have no doubt to believe the republic's weapons can do damage for it will, just the Protoss are use to fighting against overwhelming odds, and can work as one without the Kalla of Light. They are the one space faction that can give the Cov a run for their money, yet also they can purge planets too.

I wouldn't put the capabilities of the Protoss as Shock Troops above that of the Tau myself. Riptide assault formations are extremely deadly.

So Covenant, with 'help', vs the GAR? Cause the Covenant are going to get back problems after this war with all the carrying they have to do. Chimera/Locust/Terminators really only help with ground war and as manpower... Its nice to have but also not needed. You could remove them and it would change nothing. Scrin is a wildcard as we know really nothing about them. The forces you fight in Command and Conqueror is a mining expedition. It isn't even their real military. You are fighting what is, essentially, the Chevron company. So... I'm going to assume its just the mining expeditions, in which case, same as the above three. The Protoss and the Tau are in the same boat, while their ships have the firepower to contribute greatly and they both have solid tech, they lack the numbers and industrial might to really contribute in the grand scheme. But, their assistance is still valuable.. kind of. Tau FTL is pretty garbage. [Refitting a bunch of ships isn't easy to do, so.. you wouldn't see Tau ships with Slipspace or any other FTL for a long time into the war] meaning the Tau fleet assets will likely be left to defend key worlds within Hutt Space.

In theory, I think the GAR should win via superior industrial ability, only one that can build nearly as fast is the Covenant but that would require a level of mobilization we never really saw from the GAR or, at least, a real application of it. Ground battles don't matter all that much, they look cool. Games focus on them, but space is what matters. Covenant has the ability to compete with the GAR, in that aspect, I'd say. Now... as I said, I think in theory, GAR has the tools it needs to win, it would require some reforms [making more of their military force enlisted men and leaving more specialized roles to the Clones, for instance] as well as really mobilizing and switching to a war economy, but will they do it? Hard to say.

So, in theory, I think the GAR would win. In practice... the GAR could win, but politics and internal division is likely what would lead to their downfall more then the actions of the enemies.

Right, before I forget, Canon loses, the above was Legends.

Shadowsun is very good, but I wouldn't particularly put her above some of the upper tier republic commanders, like Tarkin. Puretide would be another story however

@wut: Well what I assume here is that the Tau are going to assume the role of elite shock troops as well as core world defense, what with their fancy gundams and whatnot. Like I said, Riptides and their Nova Reactor powerups are definitely going to be something almost impossible for the pubs to deal with aside from feeding them superheavy armour

I think the Earth Caste could be a factor as well, imagine nonsense like Kig-Yar and Elites equipped with Pulse Weapons, or the melee variants of that tech that would be developed by the Brutes. They will also immediately start upgrading with what is provided with them and they work FAST

The Protoss are going to be the counter to Jedi, and the Jedi Seers

@decaf_wizard: Star Wars has the ability to pump out some lawls military tech when the situation calls for it. That said, Riptides, themselves, are incredibly rare and, as I said in my first post, ground battles are fairly unimportant in the grand scheme. You win in space, and it doesn't matter who won on ground.

Meh, standard Covenant Plasma is more then enough to kill a clone trooper. Giving everyone Pulse Weapons would be, what is known as, overkill [That and the Tau are pretty craptastic at squad support weaponry.].

Jedi vs Protoss doesn't really matter all that much to me.

Well I mean yea, but thats so stupidly out of character for the GAR that its not even funny. COULD they say "yes let's melt every enemy world from orbit with Mass Shadows? Yea probably. Will they? Ehh probably not even close.

The Hutts however funny enough, do have some of these weapons, like the Planechangas, holdovers from the Hutt Empire which are rather Orky. They were space battle platforms capable of accelerate asteroids at speeds sufficent to planet bust. The CIS is also able to outfit their battleships with hyper-point destabilizers and some related nonsense.

There is also the possibility they could just pick up an infinity gate out of some Kwa ruins and chuck it at a planet. Given what that stuff is a ripoff of, I'll just post the first bit of its wiki page and you can guess what it would do

Tau ships are laughably bad at broadside combat which Republic Fleets are literally build for. It would be a test of who is better at getting into the range they want

@decaf_wizard: What? Why in the world do the GAR need the ability to crack planets? When I say 'tech' I don't mean, 'I'ma blow up this solar system with a proto-suncrusher', I am referring to just better vehicles and infantry weaponry. Demand breeds innovation. The GAR have never needed lots of weaponry to beat superheavies. However, if the demand was there, you would see advancements to meet that demand, that is how technology works and Star Wars is full of such weaponry.

I don't understand where this superweapon tangent is coming from.

Meh, Tau's whole thing is staying away and firing, so... I guess.. the better question would be how long it takes the GAR to get good at microjumping. If they refuse to do it, Tau have a bit of a field day and trade extremely well.

Oh I assumed you meant some of their more lolz tier superweapons that typically aren't seen to the same extend in other universes. Although any adaptation in the GAR would be met by the Earth Caste

Well Mr Supreme Admiral "Microjump Maneuvers" Thrawn is still derping around in the Unknown Regions at this point, and it wasn't a thing that Tarkin was all that fond of, so, who knows.

Also, I do think that ground battles certainly do matter, especially in the case of Republic Fortress Worlds. The pubs do have 40k style fortress worlds, with planetary shielding, orbital defense platforms and massive anti-space weapons emplacements. Although few and far between compared to other types of worlds, ground troops would play a far more important role in the taking of these fortress worlds, as eliminating the defense platforms quickly VIA troops that would be deposited onto the surface would be the optimal way to siege these places. In such rapid insertion maneuvers, the Tau troops could prove invaluable.

@wut: FYI, Terminators do have space force :)

Additionally how does this war change with the CIS involved?

@decaf_wizard: Ah, that makes sense. Yeah, its out of their character. The only time I remember them razing a planet and trying to kill everyone was against the Sith during the Great Hyperspace War.

Yeah, that is why I said in theory so many times! XD In theory, the GAR has all the tools it needs to win.. in practice....

Don't get me wrong, you need a ground army. For taking out such installations, holding planets, pacifying local occupants, etc. But the main asset for such a war is navy and you'll win, or lose, the war off the navy's back.

Also, did you see what the spam guy threw up in here? I legit cackled.

@swa2point0:So do the Chimera, but they aren't what I'd consider............ potent enough to make a difference. [Also, what is that? I've never seen that before. Looks like a satellite]

@wut: I'm sorry did you want to fight today? Because right now all I'm seeing is protoss lowball. :)

@merulezall: Bruh, I put them on the same level as Tau, you should be thanking me.

Please ignore how I dislike the Tau.

@wut said:

Bruh, prime protoss is obviously necron level. You're lucky I aint even going as far as to say one carrier with Artanis as its commander doesn't solo the Tau Empire. :)

@merulezall: Bruh, Prime Protoss were too busy being devoured by the weak Zerg as they engaged in their slap fight against one another.

The Blue Space Weeboo Communist Empire getting wiped out?

Nothing of value was lost.

@wut: Wait we're gonna ignore the fact the Protoss were winning up until a certain point and then ended up winning anyway, don't count the terrans they didn't really help. :)

Also how would the Tau interact with the Covenant btw? Would the Covenant have to beat them into submission just in the grand scheme of things or what? Not for this thread, but if they were to indeed meet.

Well, the Republic tends to have a "kill it with fire" attitude to the main Sith Worlds and for very good reason. Not only do the Sith they leave their planets infested with dangerous dark side relics, force mutated fauna that thinks you are tasty, nasty booby traps both force based and conventional and spell matrixes that nobody can figure out what they do and messing with them in any way will probably get you killed but you dont just want to leave them there. No, they also somehow screw up the planet permanantly with Dark Side nastiness, tainting it to the very core like Thule, Dxun, Korriban and Drommund Kaas.

Other than that, the pubs generally take a similar stance to Tau on Exterminatus-ing planets

The GAR would be the Imperium without Space Marines, unifying ideals and Inquisitors to get shit done when it needs doing

Ye, happens from time to time. Funny lol

@merulezall: I don't count discount Space Marines, so don't worry about that. :P Protoss were winning their slap fest with other Protoss? Well, if Protoss fights Protoss, I hope Protoss would win. Be rather embarrassing if Protoss fights Protoss and some guy named Steve wins.

Probably war? The Tau are jerks. If you don't 'join' them they try to poach your stuff, and the Tau wouldn't join another union.... I mean, you won't get like the UNSC/Covenant hatred, as that was very personal, I imagine it'd be more cordial.

@wut: Honestly lol, Tell me where the 7e Riptide touched you? Dont be shy now

@decaf_wizard: Bruh, Ive played Orks for 14ish years. Losing is what we do (cept this edition). I've always disliked the Tau.

@wut said:

I meant the zerg you dick head Lol. Haha.

I only ask because I think current protoss would actually join the Covenant as Artanis is the leadership, I think pre-great war protoss would be just as bad as the Tau in that aspect. However, I thought the Tau were great diplomats? Maybe they could convince truth otherwise? I mean Current Covenant if we can even call them that, would prolly join the Tau out of the fact that they have even allied themselves with human factions so...

I also noticed a few things. I'm going to break down your post if you don't mind.

So Covenant, with 'help', vs the GAR? Cause the Covenant are going to get back problems after this war with all the carrying they have to do.

Agreed, as IIRC even the protoss empire well in this case the united whatever protoss factions are good, they do indeed lack numbers. However, every protoss warship could hold its own with the minor Republic battleships or even possible use and apply cloaked fleets to ambush republic forces. This should be a big point in the war. As IIRC protoss have the ability to not only cloak their own warships, but have ships near by to cloak others including Covenant as Tau. If the Covenant is agreed to go on the offensive, then the Tau and Protoss could very well play defense with cloaked fleets and by the time the Republic launches an assault even micro jumps wont really matter if you don't know where you're getting your ass railed at.

This is ofc just a thought.

Chimera/Locust/Terminators really only help with ground war and as manpower... Its nice to have but also not needed. You could remove them and it would change nothing.

I disagree, although I'm no expert on the Chimera, but their ground game seems pretty effective as in the SW galaxy is filled with human like creatures, so shouldnt the virus effect them as well? That's a lot of bodies joining now what was once the tiny Chimera force now numbering in the billions and higher. Granted armies don't matter, but that's man power that can be well spent on producing fleets for the Covenant.

Terminators help with the fact they can apply unique black ops missions along with protoss and Tau in the fact of hacking shit and ofc disguising themselves and prolly pulling off better black op missions than even the Tau in the aspect thanks to their T-1000s. I have a hard time not seeing these boys being dropped in mass as well on shipyards left to kill Clones all damn day. I mean really the Clones can't really put them down and if they do it would be as such a high price its not gonna even be funny. Furthermore unlike everyone here besides protoss, the Terminators don't need to rest, they don't need sleep. Their functions and understanding technology could very well help them refit ships as well as they would be working on the clock 24/7 and their ability to make mistakes would be maybe high at first, but low in the grand scheme of things due to their learning nature, and their ability to redo the same stuff over and over again.

I do agree the Locust as cool as they are unless they can breed rapid, wont really apply much. Maybe they can help with production???

Scrin is a wildcard as we know really nothing about them. The forces you fight in Command and Conqueror is a mining expedition. It isn't even their real military. You are fighting what is, essentially, the Chevron company. So... I'm going to assume its just the mining expeditions, in which case, same as the above three.

Agreed, I have a feeling if we included all the Scrin and we are guessed and allowed to believe they own like multiple galaxies.... I think that would in general be too much, even if their ships are dog shit. The sheer amount of numbers would drown the galaxy. However, I got nothing on this, they bring some cool tech, maybe like the Chimera, they can drop sub space fleets onto planets and begin infecting shit as quick as possible???? Boosting manpower and so on???

The Protoss and the Tau are in the same boat, while their ships have the firepower to contribute greatly and they both have solid tech, they lack the numbers and industrial might to really contribute in the grand scheme. But, their assistance is still valuable.. kind of. Tau FTL is pretty garbage. [Refitting a bunch of ships isn't easy to do, so.. you wouldn't see Tau ships with Slipspace or any other FTL for a long time into the war] meaning the Tau fleet assets will likely be left to defend key worlds within Hutt Space.

I knind of alreayd justified this.

In theory, I think the GAR should win via superior industrial ability, only one that can build nearly as fast is the Covenant but that would require a level of mobilization we never really saw from the GAR or, at least, a real application of it. Ground battles don't matter all that much, they look cool. Games focus on them, but space is what matters. Covenant has the ability to compete with the GAR, in that aspect, I'd say. Now... as I said, I think in theory, GAR has the tools it needs to win, it would require some reforms [making more of their military force enlisted men and leaving more specialized roles to the Clones, for instance] as well as really mobilizing and switching to a war economy, but will they do it? Hard to say.

I don't think so, because even when the GAR was coming close and was on the climax of the war, they really didn't draft too many people that I can recall, maybe I'm wrong, but the Republic has a poor means of producing stuff and lets so to speak companies do it for them which although are good, they aren't that good. Plus just because you can produce ships don't mean you can produce pilots, and various other crew members to run those ships. Covenant would lack in this, which is why people like skynet and chimera matter as the terminators can begin mass production I'm sure, and the Chimera swarming planets creating new forces don't need the training as it is already ingrained into them once they actually learn it due to their hive mind mentality, or maybe I'm wrong?

I thought Orks were just a army that was designed so people could kitbash like madmen and claim it was "looted" tbh

@merulezall: Ohhh the zerg, I thought you were going for something relevant and potent. :P

Can post all day but not respond to a PM? Sounds like scrub talk to me.

I dunno... Their religion is vastly different then the Covenants... I'm not sure how accepting the Covenant is of other religions. The Tau could probably talk Post-Covenant.. Covenant races to join.

Stealth tech like that does exist in Star Wars, so it isn't a total OCP, but I did say the Protoss and Tau could do pretty solid support.

Chimera doesn't really work like a 'plague'. They have to 'turn' people, its more like the Reapers and the husk then a super virus that infects everyone, everywhere. So... not really? The Chimera would have to take over a world, set up 'production' facilities and then start to convert the population which, I mean, at that point... you are also using a ton of resources so its not like a 'Boom, exponential growth!'.

You'd need serious wanking to assume the Terminators could hack tech vastly superior then their own, including, beating the GAR security and anti-hack teams just... cause Robots. Them hacking old tech makes sense, it'd be like someone going back in time and hacking Window's DOS, not excatly hard to do when you have prior knowledge of its systems, but hacking something that is far beyond its own capabilities? I don't see that trade going super well. Also, Terminators are far from invincible and blasters are strong enough to kill them, they are tough, and wouldn't be easy, but your normal terminator soldiers are not 'Har Har, puny clones!' level. Its also not like the GAR can't get into its own mass droid production, I'm not talking about purposely designed awful mess that are B1s, but true battle droids, which was a thing the Republic used to use quite a lot of, so... again, the GAR has answers to it manpower issue in both droids and enlisted men, just requires some reforms and changes, which I mentioned earlier.

XD Bruh, I think you are seriously confusing the Chimera with a super virus like the flood or the Doubt Worm or something.

The Republic has excellent means of producing things. You.. do know having companies produce your equipment is.. how its done, right? The United States doesn't have government owned factories pumping out tanks. For instance, Ford, General Motors, etc, are who built the tanks, planes, etc. Its all contracted out just like the GAR does it. Its actually very realistic due to how the government is ran and, actually, privatizing such work usually makes them more efficient. However, the Republic can crank out things like crazy if it really put its mind to it, it just never mobilized to the point it always could have which I blame on internal politics [and writers lacking knowledge on logistics].

@decaf_wizard:You're just jealous that Imperials can't do it.