The Borg (Star Trek) vs. The Empire (Star Wars)

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xan84

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#201  Edited By xan84

@Baldy The Borg can time travel. I am sure they could do something. Like go back in time before it was created and destroy it. They tried something like that before on Earth. Hell considering we have no plot problems here they could go back and fight the Empire when they where stone age man with clubs...

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Baldy

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#202  Edited By Baldy

@xan84 said:

@Baldy The Borg can time travel. I am sure they could do something. Like go back in time before it was created and destroy it. They tried something like that before on Earth. Hell considering we have no plot problems here they could go back and fight the Empire when they where stone age man with clubs...

I suspect time travel for the Borg isn't that simple, otherwise they would have used it against species 8472.

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#203  Edited By AtPhantom

@DedmanWalkin said:

, former means the first one listed and latter means the second one listed. They have 6 transwarp hubs, including the one that Voyager destroyed, but the Queen and Unicomplex are as expendable as any other Drone. The Queen has died at least 3 times on screen as she was aboard both Cubes sent to Earth and in the Unicomplex.

My mistake, i failed to read your post properly. Still, you cannot claim the Unicomplex is expendable. It existed for a reason. If they didn't really need such a ginormous central staging area, it wouldn't have existed. Clearly there was something there that mattered more than just any sphere/cube/random-geometric-object and its loss hurt the Borg. Badly. I'm not sure since it's been quite a while, but I do recall the Queen muttering something about how the cubes are being separated from the grid and that the sphere after Voyager was one of the last under her control. That sounds like a major collapse.

The Borg always assimilate high value targets. Voyager is an incredibly high value target and not just because its role in the story. Assimilating the Doctor's mobile emitter would advance their tech to incredible levels. Destroying the ship would be an incredibly stupid move on their part.

1. I would hazard to say that assimilation was the last thing on the Borg's mind at that point.

2. You're assuming false equivalence. They could have easily disabled the ship and then assimilated it. They didn't.

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#204  Edited By TronHammer

@ShootingNova said:

@HammerTron: Yes they do.... you need to read the EU.....

Ah.

I only read the Han Solo adventures and the first book of the Heir to the Empire trilogy by Timothy Zahn.

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Baldy

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#205  Edited By Baldy

@HammerTron said:

@ShootingNova said:

@HammerTron: Yes they do.... you need to read the EU.....

Ah.

I only read the Han Solo adventures and the first book of the Heir to the Empire trilogy by Timothy Zahn.

You ARE going to finish the Thrawn trilogy arn't you? It's a great series of books and probably the only reason Star Wars even exists today.

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#206  Edited By TronHammer

@Baldy said:

@HammerTron said:

@ShootingNova said:

@HammerTron: Yes they do.... you need to read the EU.....

Ah.

I only read the Han Solo adventures and the first book of the Heir to the Empire trilogy by Timothy Zahn.

You ARE going to finish the Thrawn trilogy arn't you? It's a great series of books and probably the only reason Star Wars even exists today.

Oh yeah. I have the books. Somewhere...

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#207  Edited By Pokergeist
@Jeronimo said:


                   

You know, now that I think about it, ST vs SW is really like Marvel vs DC. Both ST and Marvel are at least somewhat grounded in reality.....

It's all relative I suppose.



                   

               

Hmmm So Image is Comics as is  Wahammer 40K is too Sci Fi?  I like that lol.
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#208  Edited By jeanroygrant

The Empire

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steelhound56

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#209  Edited By steelhound56

@McRoyalewithcheese: You, good sir, win this thread.

I gave up trying to argue with Picard on the subject. The dude refuses to see logic

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#210  Edited By DedmanWalkin

A Borg Cube has multiple redundant systems in place so that if one system goes offline, the next one comes online. Why would the Borg design all their ships with redundancy and not their command structure? We actually only see part of the Unicomplex explode, the Borg may have simply amputated that part and activated their redundant backups. Heck, that may just be one of 6 Unicomplexes, with each one overseeing a Transwarp Hub. We don't have all the information but based upon their history and preferences, redundancy and expendability are two of their primary traits so there is absolutely no reason to believe that losing any single drone, ship, facility, planet, or system would in anyway destroy them. Species 8472 destroyed a bunch of cubes and planets and still the Borg were up and running. Omega Molecule research destroyed an entire star system and still they were up and running.

Regardless of what you may think, the Borg Sphere opened its hatch and pulled Voyager inside. It would only do that if it was going to assimilate it. If Transphasic Torpedoes still worked on the Borg then Voyager could have simply destroyed the Sphere and been done with it but they didn't so they had to wait until they were inside the Borg Cube. Remember, Janeway knew she and her shuttle was going to be assimilated and that all her technology would become Borg technology. It was part of her plan, she knew that once her ship was assimilated, the Borg would become immune to Transphasic Torpedoes and have a way to deal with the Ablative Armor Generators. So they came up with a plan to exploit the Borg's need to assimilate, so they likely feigned disabled to get the Sphere to consume them because they intended upon being inside based upon Janeway's insistence that they were where they intended to be. Why go through all that if their Torpedoes still worked against the Borg?

The point of all this being that the Borg have access to a weapon that can essentially oneshot Star Destroyers.

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ShootingNova

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#211  Edited By ShootingNova

@DedmanWalkin: If this is DE, they really don't need so many Star Destroyers, only wormholes.

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#212  Edited By ShootingNova

@steelhound56 said:

@McRoyalewithcheese: You, good sir, win this thread.

I gave up trying to argue with Picard on the subject. The dude refuses to see logic

This.

@HammerTron: Well, reading sourcebooks and guides, you would also get information concerning why things operate the way they do.

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#213  Edited By AtPhantom

@DedmanWalkin said:

A Borg Cube has multiple redundant systems in place so that if one system goes offline, the next one comes online. Why would the Borg design all their ships with redundancy and not their command structure? We actually only see part of the Unicomplex explode, the Borg may have simply amputated that part and activated their redundant backups. Heck, that may just be one of 6 Unicomplexes, with each one overseeing a Transwarp Hub. We don't have all the information but based upon their history and preferences, redundancy and expendability are two of their primary traits so there is absolutely no reason to believe that losing any single drone, ship, facility, planet, or system would in anyway destroy them. Species 8472 destroyed a bunch of cubes and planets and still the Borg were up and running. Omega Molecule research destroyed an entire star system and still they were up and running.

You're presuming things about the Borg you shouldn't. It is very much possible that some things simply cannot be backed up and made expendable. The Borg, after all, strive towards efficiency above all else, and having a central government-equivalent complex certainly helps with that. It also makes it vulnerable. Likewise, you cannot simply equate drones, ships and facilities to what is for all intents and purposes their capital.

@DedmanWalkin said:

Regardless of what you may think, the Borg Sphere opened its hatch and pulled Voyager inside. It would only do that if it was going to assimilate it. If Transphasic Torpedoes still worked on the Borg then Voyager could have simply destroyed the Sphere and been done with it but they didn't so they had to wait until they were inside the Borg Cube. Remember, Janeway knew she and her shuttle was going to be assimilated and that all her technology would become Borg technology. It was part of her plan, she knew that once her ship was assimilated, the Borg would become immune to Transphasic Torpedoes and have a way to deal with the Ablative Armor Generators. So they came up with a plan to exploit the Borg's need to assimilate, so they likely feigned disabled to get the Sphere to consume them because they intended upon being inside based upon Janeway's insistence that they were where they intended to be. Why go through all that if their Torpedoes still worked against the Borg?

This is irrelevant. I took a look at the episode and the Queen clearly states "I may have assimilated your pathogen, but I also assimilated your armor technology" In other words, only armor technology. And beforehand Admiral Janeway makes it clear that while the Borg will eventually adapt to the torpedoes, they have not yet done so, and will not do it for a long time. The queen also makes it clear that the Sphere is out to destroy Voyager with extreme prejudice. As to why they didn't attack it, detonating torpedoes inside the transwarp conduit is a great way to scatter yourself across several lightyears. They were already outrunning one blast, this one would have been so much closer.

And ultimately, one point we have failed to mention so far, is that transphasic torpedoes are specifically anti-Borg weapons. They take advantage of the Borg's unique defenses to destroy them. There is no evidence that it will work like that against any other type of ship, Star Destroyer or not.

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@xan84 said:

@McRoyalewithcheese The thing is Janeway got some weapons from the future that can 1 shoot a borg cube if i remember right. Then the borg asimilated those and so they can do that :)

Source?

@DedmanWalkin said:

The 64 megaton yield refers to at max the 25 isoton yield photon torpedo which means that 1 isoton is equal to 2.56 megatons. This means that the 200 isoton yield maximum of Voyager's class six warhead can yield 512 megatons. The 5 million isoton multi-kinetic neutronic mine would yield 12.8 teratons of damage or 1 order of magnitude/64 times more powerful than the standard weapons aboard an Imperial Star Destroyer. Just 1 mine may completely annihilate an Imperial Star Destroyer if not at least eat through its shields allowing the Borg Cube to transport aboard and assimilate the vessel adding Imperial Technology to their technology. Given the speed at which technology can travel through the Collective, hyperspace-capable Cubes would start assimilating multiple ships adding to their army in less than a couple hours.

The Borg don't send their strongest to attack new targets, they send cannon fodder who will most likely be destroyed so that they can learn how the target operates so that they can use more effective tactics/countermeasures. The only problem with this strategy is that when you approach an enemy that uses the exact same approach, you tend to lose more by sending cannon fodder as they will simply reverse engineer your tech and come up with countermeasures. Species 8472 is that exactly, they are the Borg if the Borg were biological. They completely dominated fluidic space which may or may not be an alternate dimension. They had the advantage of having the first victory which in their type of conflict, gives them the entire ball game. Species 8472 was simply a step ahead and was able to out-adapt the Borg. They were also psionic which may have allowed them to see weaknesses and exploit them.

Adaptation does not just mean altering frequency it means altering tactics and technology. We don't know how Imperial weapons work so we can't speculate how they would adapt to them but after a couple cube deaths they would modify their vessels to withstand the attack. Perhaps they use their transwarp could to form a gravity field that redirects the plasma or something. I don't know, you don't know but it would happen. Altering frequency is just how they counter Federation Phasers which is the weapon that we see them go up against most. We never see them face off against other races, nor how they deal with the various weapons of these races beyond Species 8472.

Galactus has been around for untold millenia and still hasn't eaten every world despite having the power and ability to do so. Is Galactus unimpressive to you? When you are a force of nature feared by a race of omnipotents, you need not hurry, you need not rush.

Were these mines ever deployed? How do they work? What is stopping TIE fighters from destroying them? Assuming they did get on board, how are they going to access important information? Stormtroopers will cut them down. Do you really think the Imperials are just going to sit there and wait for it all to happen? And if they happened to access a terminal, why do you assume they will get easy access to anything? The Borg won't crack them as easily as a Federation starship, based on the technology disparity. I can't imagine how complex a system would be like to successfully navigate and put something as large as an ISD into hyperspace. Species 8472 didn't out-adapt the Borg, they crushed them with their superior technology and firepower, showing that the Borg do have limitations when it comes to adaptation. How can they modify their vessels to withstand brute firepower? They can't. Even a mass of Federation ships overwhelmed a cube, adaptation or no adaptation. Their shields aren't running on limitless energy, there has to be a point where they will collapse. So let's work with what we have here - in that Borg ships have limits, and that their ships can be destroyed by conventional firepower, as Species 8472 showed us. I am for one glad S8472 exist, because it destroys the wank no-limits fallacy Trekkies like to use when discussing the Borg. I've seen arguments where they've claimed they can adapt to a deathstar blast, and survive it. Incredible.

I'm sure Galactus would have a reason for doing so. Of course he's impressive, he's pretty much a god. The Borg are only as impressive as some Trekkies talk them up to be. They aren't even galactic spanning.

@AtPhantom said:

ST sensor tech is a lot better than SW, and Borg FTL is not at all inferior to SW.

Do you have any proof of that? An example of SW sensor tech here- shows that the Empire can detect fleets light hours away, can detect cloaked vessels, and can jam vessels.

The Borg rely on transwarp conduits, none of which exist in the SW galaxy. Conventionally, it takes many many decades for a ST ship to reach the other side of the galaxy. To establish this network would have taken them centuries. The Empire could simply destroy this network with their superior speed... how are the Borg going to get to them without this network? How are the Borg going to even do anything once this network is destroyed? This kind of FTL is absolutely impractical against an external enemy who is capable of travelling across galaxies in quick time. Off the top of my head, it took several hours for Obi Wan to arrive on Tatoonie from Coruscant, that's halfway across a 120,000LY galaxy.

@AtPhantom said:

Granted don't know much on SW outside of movies and the occasional SW episode, but I don't remember them ever picking up stuff lightyears away.

You don't know much about SW yet make absolute comments like "SW sensors are inferior to ST sensors"? Which ST sensors? The Federation? Dominion? Borg? Where are you getting this info from?

@HammerTron said:

Many episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation focused on scientific theory and explaining how and why things were the way they were.

Yes, pseudo-scientific rubbish that would impress the average viewer. SW just got things done. Just because some characters threw out techobabble to explain concepts that most people are not familiar with, doesn't mean the technology is any more realistic than that of SW.

@xan84 said:

The Borg can time travel. I am sure they could do something. Like go back in time before it was created and destroy it. They tried something like that before on Earth. Hell considering we have no plot problems here they could go back and fight the Empire when they where stone age man with clubs...

You have to remember that the Borg had to travel to Earth to do this, making it extremely limited. We also don't know how far they can go - they've never demonstrated the ability to go back millions of years. If it were so easy, then they would have done that with Earth. Plus, there are many paradoxes with time travel. For all we know, it either creates a completely new timeline, or messes up the current one and puts the Borg in a worse situation. And how exactly are the Borg going to reach Coruscant without transwarp? Time travel raises more questions than answers, and seems pretty limited as far as the Borg are concerned. It doesn't exactly give them any advantage.

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#215  Edited By Picard

@Baldy said:

@xan84 said:

@Baldy The Borg can time travel. I am sure they could do something. Like go back in time before it was created and destroy it. They tried something like that before on Earth. Hell considering we have no plot problems here they could go back and fight the Empire when they where stone age man with clubs...

I suspect time travel for the Borg isn't that simple, otherwise they would have used it against species 8472.

Species 8472 is from other dimensions so time travel wouldn't help Borg against them. I mean: Borg don't know history of that other dimension and they don't know when to strike to conquer 8472

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#216  Edited By isaac_clarke

@McRoyalewithcheese: While 8472 did have planet busting ships, they were more or less immune to the Borg's effort to assimilate anything involving them till the Doctor made the necessary adjustments to the nano-probes. Since then cubes are actually in their their dimension doing their Borg thing they do. I have no idea why the Borg would have issues with SW computers, which more or less, didn't seem all that advance by comparison to Federation computers.

The Borg also have transwarp conduits and Quantum Slipstream technology, the latter seeming a lot faster.

You have to remember that the Borg had to travel to Earth to do this, making it extremely limited. We also don't know how far they can go - they've never demonstrated the ability to go back millions of years. If it were so easy, then they would have done that with Earth. Plus, there are many paradoxes with time travel. For all we know, it either creates a completely new timeline, or messes up the current one and puts the Borg in a worse situation. And how exactly are the Borg going to reach Coruscant without transwarp? Time travel raises more questions than answers, and seems pretty limited as far as the Borg are concerned. It doesn't exactly give them any advantage.

They didn't need to go to Earth to time travel. It was out of necessity after the Cube went boom. Given how Kirk and friends could more or less figure out exactly where they wanted to head through time travel, I don't think it's much of an issue when the Borg don't have a Prime Directive or a bunch of time cops like in the ST universe.

@AtPhantom said:

Granted don't know much on SW outside of movies and the occasional SW episode, but I don't remember them ever picking up stuff lightyears away.

That's partly because it seems non existent in films or the TV series for the most part.

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@isaac_clarke said:

@McRoyalewithcheese: While 8472 did have planet busting ships, they were more or less immune to the Borg's effort to assimilate anything involving them till the Doctor made the necessary adjustments to the nano-probes. Since then cubes are actually in their their dimension doing their Borg thing they do. I have no idea why the Borg would have issues with SW computers, which more or less, didn't seem all that advance by comparison to Federation computers.

The Borg also have transwarp conduits and Quantum Slipstream technology, the latter seeming a lot faster.

You're kidding, right? The amount of power an ISD generates alone shows how superior SW computers are, simply because of the processing power required. As I said, transwarp conduits only have use in their galaxy and can be destroyed, and the Borg have never been shown to use Slipstream technology. Voyager got the technology from Arturus, and it was extremely unstable.

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#218  Edited By isaac_clarke

@McRoyalewithcheese said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@McRoyalewithcheese: While 8472 did have planet busting ships, they were more or less immune to the Borg's effort to assimilate anything involving them till the Doctor made the necessary adjustments to the nano-probes. Since then cubes are actually in their their dimension doing their Borg thing they do. I have no idea why the Borg would have issues with SW computers, which more or less, didn't seem all that advance by comparison to Federation computers.

The Borg also have transwarp conduits and Quantum Slipstream technology, the latter seeming a lot faster.

You're kidding, right? The amount of power an ISD generates alone shows how superior SW computers are, simply because of the processing power required. As I said, transwarp conduits only have use in their galaxy and can be destroyed, and the Borg have never been shown to use Slipstream technology. Voyager got the technology from Arturus, and it was extremely unstable.

Nope, not kidding. The Holodeck seems to have more process power than much of the computers I see in SW. I'm referring to the conduits in their ships, which they use without those giant transwarp hubs all the time in the series. They assimilated slipstream, whether you like or not, it's completely available to them.

The Voyager's version, while much faster, was definitely much less stable to be sure.

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ShootingNova

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#219  Edited By ShootingNova

@isaac_clarke: Those depend one what type of computer model you are talking about in SW.

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#220  Edited By isaac_clarke

@ShootingNova said:

@isaac_clarke: Those depend one what type of computer model you are talking about in SW.

Personally I'm not all too aware on the specs of SW computers, mainly because it's usually not the highlight of the stories I've been exposed to in SW. It just generally seemed from perception, given the focus often put on the computers in Trek, that Voyager and the Enterprise D seemed to have way more going for them when it came to their computers.

I trust your opinion, since you have definitely revealed yourself as one of the top three individuals in all things SW on the boards so far.

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#221  Edited By ShootingNova

@isaac_clarke: Well, thanks for putting me so high, but I don't think I'm that high in SW....

There are some supercomputer models made from three brains, but three separate brains have proven to be more effective than those models of a supercomputer, but at times, also vice versa.

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#222  Edited By isaac_clarke

@ShootingNova said:

@isaac_clarke: Well, thanks for putting me so high, but I don't think I'm that high in SW....

There are some supercomputer models made from three brains, but three separate brains have proven to be more effective than those models of a supercomputer, but at times, also vice versa.

On this board, you pretty much are. Silver, Jedi and you seem to be about the most knowledgeable folks here on all things SW by comparison to the average poster and you all actually have credibility from my perception so it makes your opinions even more valued. Now back to business, so you'd say that SW computers do have their advantages at times compared to federation computers?

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#223  Edited By ShootingNova

@McRoyalewithcheese: Not all SW computers are superior. Almost half of them are just failures or not on their level. My knowledge of Star Trek is limited and basic, but from what I know from what other people have told me and said in this thread, I could say that some SW computers are superior.

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#224  Edited By ShootingNova

@isaac_clarke: You flatter me by putting me on their level, I like to stay modest, but nonetheless I must be a good few tiers below them.

Some SW computers. Not all. Like my above posts, from what I know of Star Trek, I know some SW computer models and what not are potentially superior to them, but if I make any mistakes feel free to correct me.

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isaac_clarke

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#225  Edited By isaac_clarke

@ShootingNova said:

@isaac_clarke: You flatter me by putting me on their level, I like to stay modest, but nonetheless I must be a good few tiers below them.

Some SW computers. Not all. Like my above posts, from what I know of Star Trek, I know some SW computer models and what not are potentially superior to them, but if I make any mistakes feel free to correct me.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering the both of them are definitely two of the most knowledgeable people I've seen in anything SW related, be it reviews or debates. I'd actually expect Deadmanwalking to do any correcting since he's a lot more active in this thread. I'm just speaking from personal perception from what I've seen from both franchises, as Star Wars really doesn't focus nearly as much as Star Trek does on showing off the technology, in particular the computer.

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#226  Edited By ShootingNova

@isaac_clarke: Thanks.

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#227  Edited By AtPhantom

@McRoyalewithcheese said:

Do you have any proof of that? An example of SW sensor tech here

Oh FFS I am not going to entertain a guy from StarDestroyer.net who acts like Captain Picard personally shot his dog and then ran over it for good measure, and not provide any real evidence in the process. You wanna make a claim? You prove it yourself.

I Borg:

Riker:We've picked up a vessel on long range scanners, headed this way.

DATA: The vessel is traveling at warp seven-point-six. Mass: two-point-five million metric tons, configuration: ...cubical.

DATA: At present speed they will arrive in thirty-one hours, seven minutes.

Warp seven is, depending on the scale, either 343 or 656 times the speed of light, meaning that the Borg ship was no less than a light year away. Far, far more than the measly light hour at which the Empire and the Rebels detected each other.

Or how about this?

The Wounded:

Geordi: ... and with long-range sensors, we've been scanning a radius of ten light years. We can effectively scan one sector in a day.
That's a sphere with a volume of four thousand cubic light years. And this is a Federation ship, one which looks like a children's toy compared to Borg.
This, remember, is in response to your idea that the Borg wouldn't even be able to know where to go in Imperial space, clearly a retarded claim.

@McRoyalewithcheese said:
The Borg rely on transwarp conduits, none of which exist in the SW galaxy. Conventionally, it takes many many decades for a ST ship to reach the other side of the galaxy. To establish this network would have taken them centuries. The Empire could simply destroy this network with their superior speed... how are the Borg going to get to them without this network? How are the Borg going to even do anything once this network is destroyed? This kind of FTL is absolutely impractical against an external enemy who is capable of travelling across galaxies in quick time. Off the top of my head, it took several hours for Obi Wan to arrive on Tatoonie from Coruscant, that's halfway across a 120,000LY galaxy.

They're prefectly capable of generating conduits on their own. The network simply make the travel time instantaneous as opposed to several days travel. The Borg cubes which traveled to Earth didn't use the network, and when Voyager installed one of the Borg transwarp coils, it allowed them to jump 20,000 lightyears and shave 15 years of their journey. The Borg's FTL might not be superior to the Empire's, but it is not cripplingly inferior either.

You don't know much about SW yet make absolute comments like "SW sensors are inferior to ST sensors"? Which ST sensors? The Federation? Dominion? Borg? Where are you getting this info from?

Spare me the outrage. I know my movies well enough, and I provided my evidence. Get to doing the same.

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#228  Edited By NemesisSP

@isaac_clarke said:

@McRoyalewithcheese said:

@isaac_clarke said:

@McRoyalewithcheese: While 8472 did have planet busting ships, they were more or less immune to the Borg's effort to assimilate anything involving them till the Doctor made the necessary adjustments to the nano-probes. Since then cubes are actually in their their dimension doing their Borg thing they do. I have no idea why the Borg would have issues with SW computers, which more or less, didn't seem all that advance by comparison to Federation computers.

The Borg also have transwarp conduits and Quantum Slipstream technology, the latter seeming a lot faster.

You're kidding, right? The amount of power an ISD generates alone shows how superior SW computers are, simply because of the processing power required. As I said, transwarp conduits only have use in their galaxy and can be destroyed, and the Borg have never been shown to use Slipstream technology. Voyager got the technology from Arturus, and it was extremely unstable.

Nope, not kidding. The Holodeck seems to have more process power than much of the computers I see in SW. I'm referring to the conduits in their ships, which they use without those giant transwarp hubs all the time in the series. They assimilated slipstream, whether you like or not, it's completely available to them.

The Voyager's version, while much faster, was definitely much less stable to be sure.

You are making this statement after admitting that you haven't seen much of the computers in the SW universe, meaning you didn't read up on any of the franchises technology. How does that make your argument valid? You don't know what the technology is, so what makes it freaking superior in your little universe!?

@ShootingNova said:

@McRoyalewithcheese: Not all SW computers are superior. Almost half of them are just failures or not on their level. My knowledge of Star Trek is limited and basic, but from what I know from what other people have told me and said in this thread, I could say that some SW computers are superior.

Compared to Star Trek's computers, the computers in Star Wars are still superior.

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#229  Edited By ShootingNova

@NemesisSP: Again, not all, but some. The best would be superior, yes, but the worse? No. Unless you are referring to the average computer.

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#230  Edited By isaac_clarke

@NemesisSP said:

You are making this statement after admitting that you haven't seen much of the computers in the SW universe, meaning you didn't read up on any of the franchises technology. How does that make your argument valid? You don't know what the technology is, so what makes it freaking superior in your little universe!?

You know, minus the fact of me saying in all my posts "from what I've seen" from SWU. Now despite you getting emotional railed up by it, questioning any validity behind what I said, prove me wrong. I've seen much better from the computers on Voyager and the Enterprise D work magic by comparison to anything I've seen from SW, which more or less highlight visual holograms on what they want to blow up. That's not a bad thing, but it's a far cry from the average holodeck.

It's tough for me to personal say how advanced the tech in in Star Wars when for the most part a lot of the innovations in ST, like the transporter, dermal re generators, he'll the Doctor in the sickbay has more human qualities than the AI's in Star Wars. Which is fair, most scifi has their own little edge over the other.

Compared to Star Trek's computers, the computers in Star Wars are still superior.

Maybe then you can enlighten us with some examples then where what computers they have on your average Destroyer blow out of the water the super computer on the Enterprise D(which is a fair few level of you average ship computer in the federation that is already dated by the time Voyager is rolled out).

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resistanceisfutile

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@weaponx: Firepower is overwhelmingly in favor of the Empire. I believe that Stardestroyer heavy turbolasers are ranked in the 200 gigaton range, whereas standard photon torpedos have a max yield of 64 megatons, making the SDs around 30,000 times more powerful (shot for shot; that's ignoring that as an explosion, at least half the torpedos energy will be spreading out away from its target, instead of going into it). ISD shields, I believe, are typically somewhere in the terraton range (meaning they should be able to absorb 5+ heavy turbolaser shots from another ISD before failing, which isn't even very impressive, relatively speaking, if you think about it).

This topic has come up many, many times over the years. The Borg winning tends to revolve completely around invoking a no-limits fallacy in their favor; they can adapt to some things, therefore they can adapt to ANYTHING; they can assimilate some things, therefore they can assimilate ANYTHING.

The problem is not only is that inherently illogical (hence, why it is called a fallacy), but even within Trek, it doesn't really hold. The Borg were virtually crushed by Species 8472, proving they are hardly invincible. Even in their first appearance, the Enterprise inflicted severe damage to the Cube and could have almost certainly destroyed it if Picard had not been so concerned with proving his moral superiority. And even in subsequent encounters, the Enterprise (and later, Voyager) could put up a fight.

All the Borg have really proven is that they can adapt to and assimilate technologies that are already fairly similar to their own in both design and sophistication. Empire technology is far more powerful, and operates on completely different kinds of physics (hypermatter based, just as a start). There's really not much reason to believe the Borg could adapt to/assimilate such advanced technologies at all, let alone quickly enough to sway things in their favor. The Borg could barely even handle the Voyager when it was retrofitted with future tech from just a few decades ahead of time. The Empire is going to be one-shotting cubes left and right before they can do much of anything, and the effectiveness of Borg raiding parties is highly questionable, not only for the above reasons, but because there is no indication that Borg drones can adapt to anything besides frequency based energy weapons, and I do not believe blasters have that dependency. Not only that, but Stormtroopers are better trained in HtH than redshirts, and are obviously better armored, and Borg drones are slow, clumsy, and can be easily disabled by pulling any wire out of their head. And this is all assuming the Borg can transport through Empire shields (really not sure why they would be able to).

I just don't see the Borg pulling this off.

my statement below

first of all photon torpedoes have a maximum yield of 620 gigatons(taken from the starfleet technical manuel) far more powerfull than the empires turbolasers and quantum torpedoes double that yield with transphasic torpedoes tripling or possibly even quadrupling the photon yield(as the transphasic yield has yet to be confirmed quadruple the yield is only a fan guess by the extreme damage caused to the borg cubes in voyager finale endgame) .as for the borg vs the empire you said that storm troopers are better at hand to hand combat but aside from the original batch of troopers for the clone wars no other trooper has shown any skill at had to hand combat and as for there armor ewoks were able to kill the storm troopers on endor with ease so i can't see the borg having too much trouble with the empires first line of defence and as for the borg being slow and easy to destroy remember they only send a few drones when they are investigating potential victims for assimilation but when they do attack in force they swarm there target like bee's hundreds of ships thousends of drones if that happend the empire would be gone quicker than you can say resistance is futile .next just incase you decide to bring it up the borg would also defeat lord vader and the lord sideous as not a single being in the star trek universe has midi-clorians to influence through the force just like with the yuuzan vong .

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resistanceisfutile

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@Tevnoba: in the ds9 episode to the death quantum torpedoes are used to destroy an iconian ziggurat containing a gateway the ziggurat was constructed from neutronium the quantum torpedoes obliterated the structure

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toby5678910

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#233  Edited By toby5678910

Palpatine solos

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#234  Edited By toby5678910

Also wouldn't the Empire outnumber the Borg 1000 to 1.

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#235  Edited By Skaddix

@toby5678910 said:

Also wouldn't the Empire outnumber the Borg 1000 to 1.

the borg can just make more so numbers not really a problem besides every borg is a fighter unlike the imperials

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toby5678910

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#236  Edited By toby5678910

@Skaddix said:

@toby5678910 said:

Also wouldn't the Empire outnumber the Borg 1000 to 1.

the borg can just make more so numbers not really a problem besides every borg is a fighter unlike the imperials

So can the empire, what I mean is the fight takes place with all the ships in the middle of the galaxy right ?

There are over 1 million imperial worlds, Im not sure how many borg worlds there are but it seems there is less then 1000

The sheer tonnage of all the empires ships would dwarf that of the borgs immensely.

Also Palpatine just opens up a force storm and solos all the borg instantly ...

Or he uses his TP to control the borg queens and adds them to the empire.

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beatboks1

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#237  Edited By beatboks1

@toby5678910 said:

@Skaddix said:

@toby5678910 said:

Also wouldn't the Empire outnumber the Borg 1000 to 1.

the borg can just make more so numbers not really a problem besides every borg is a fighter unlike the imperials

So can the empire, what I mean is the fight takes place with all the ships in the middle of the galaxy right ?

There are over 1 million imperial worlds, Im not sure how many borg worlds there are but it seems there is less then 1000

The sheer tonnage of all the empires ships would dwarf that of the borgs immensely.

Also Palpatine just opens up a force storm and solos all the borg instantly ...

Or he uses his TP to control the borg queens and adds them to the empire.

I think his point was the Borg can assimilate the Storm troopers making more Borg out of their enemies. That being the case, the more imperial troops sent can mean more fighters the Borg has.

This topic has come up many, many times over the years. The Borg winning tends to revolve completely around invoking a no-limits fallacy in their favor; they can adapt to some things, therefore they can adapt to ANYTHING; they can assimilate some things, therefore they can assimilate ANYTHING.

The problem is not only is that inherently illogical (hence, why it is called a fallacy), but even within Trek, it doesn't really hold. The Borg were virtually crushed by Species 8472, proving they are hardly invincible. Even in their first appearance, the Enterprise inflicted severe damage to the Cube and could have almost certainly destroyed it if Picard had not been so concerned with proving his moral superiority. And even in subsequent encounters, the Enterprise (and later, Voyager) could put up a fight.

A couple of issues here. One the Borg's adaptation to a lot of things comes solely by assimilating the information form a being. Once you assimilate a being who has the knowledge acquiring and adapting to the tech is simple. The species 8472 were not compatible with Borg nanoprobes, that won't be the same with hunmanite species of SW. The future tech of a couple of decades was assimilated as soon as they got hold of future Janeway so that argument is null and void, it proves the other.

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#238  Edited By toby5678910

@beatboks1 said:

@toby5678910 said:

@Skaddix said:

@toby5678910 said:

Also wouldn't the Empire outnumber the Borg 1000 to 1.

the borg can just make more so numbers not really a problem besides every borg is a fighter unlike the imperials

So can the empire, what I mean is the fight takes place with all the ships in the middle of the galaxy right ?

There are over 1 million imperial worlds, Im not sure how many borg worlds there are but it seems there is less then 1000

The sheer tonnage of all the empires ships would dwarf that of the borgs immensely.

Also Palpatine just opens up a force storm and solos all the borg instantly ...

Or he uses his TP to control the borg queens and adds them to the empire.

I think his point was the Borg can assimilate the Storm troopers making more Borg out of their enemies. That being the case, the more imperial troops sent can mean more fighters the Borg has.

This topic has come up many, many times over the years. The Borg winning tends to revolve completely around invoking a no-limits fallacy in their favor; they can adapt to some things, therefore they can adapt to ANYTHING; they can assimilate some things, therefore they can assimilate ANYTHING.

The problem is not only is that inherently illogical (hence, why it is called a fallacy), but even within Trek, it doesn't really hold. The Borg were virtually crushed by Species 8472, proving they are hardly invincible. Even in their first appearance, the Enterprise inflicted severe damage to the Cube and could have almost certainly destroyed it if Picard had not been so concerned with proving his moral superiority. And even in subsequent encounters, the Enterprise (and later, Voyager) could put up a fight.

A couple of issues here. One the Borg's adaptation to a lot of things comes solely by assimilating the information form a being. Once you assimilate a being who has the knowledge acquiring and adapting to the tech is simple. The species 8472 were not compatible with Borg nanoprobes, that won't be the same with hunmanite species of SW. The future tech of a couple of decades was assimilated as soon as they got hold of future Janeway so that argument is null and void, it proves the other.

How will they even be able to assimilate under the massive barrage of fire that the empire will be unloading ???

And this isnt even taking into account Palpatine who insta pwns the borg...

Palpatine destroyed entire fleets of ships by opening up force storms and blackholes on them

He mindwiped a planet of 20 billion people, thats better feat then martian manhunter and professor x put together.

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@Freefa11:

first of all photon torpedoes have a maximum yield of 620 gigatons(taken from the starfleet technical manuel) far more powerfull than the empires turbolasers and quantum torpedoes double that yield with transphasic torpedoes tripling or possibly even quadrupling the photon yield(as the transphasic yield has yet to be confirmed quadruple the yield is only a fan guess by the extreme damage caused to the borg cubes in voyager finale endgame)plus remember this is a fight between the borg and the empire and the borg don't use tradional photons their torpedoes are armed with nanoprobes that begin assimilation after impact.As for the borg vs the empire you said that storm troopers are better at hand to hand combat but aside from the original batch of troopers for the clone wars no other trooper has shown any skill at had to hand combat and as for there armor ewoks were able to kill the storm troopers on endor with ease so i can't see the borg having too much trouble with the empires first line of defence and as for the borg being slow and easy to destroy remember they only send a few drones when they are investigating potential victims for assimilation but when they do attack in force they swarm there target like bee's hundreds of ships thousends of drones if that happend the empire would be gone quicker than you can say resistance is futile .next just incase you decide to bring it up the borg would also defeat lord vader and the lord sideous as not a single being in the star trek universe has midi-clorians to influence through the force just like with the yuuzan vong .

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#240  Edited By AtPhantom

@resistanceisfutile said:

@Freefa11:

first of all photon torpedoes have a maximum yield of 620 gigatons(taken from the starfleet technical manuel)

First time I hear of that. Care to prove it?

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#241  Edited By Erik

Borg.

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#242  Edited By Twentyfive

James Earl Jones wins this!

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#243  Edited By Chaos Prime

my vote is for Star Wars with General Grievous & his separatist Droid Army winning the day :)

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#244  Edited By Spartan101

star wars universe imo will win due to the versitile characters in it,droids,sith,humans,etc etc,plus with sith lords at the ready those will be hard to take down alone.

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#245  Edited By Sci_Fi_Rulez

@Baldy said:

Warp drives can be used in gravitational fields, while hyper drive can't. This is an important strategic advantage.

Transporters are also a huge advantage, though it's possible that deflector shields could stop them.

I'm not sure who would win this, but if the Borg even manage to assimilate one ship or a force user the Empire would be in trouble.

The Borg are not that maneuverable.The Empire,Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are not going to just stand their and let themselves get assimilated.Their gonna do what ever takes to destroy them

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#246  Edited By GreenFuse

Borg roflstomps.

Whatever weapons The Empire has, The Borg will quickly adapt too. And god help us all when the Borg assimilate a Force user and add that to the collective.

Actually that would be pretty interesting...if they assimilate a Jedi/Sith, and figure out what makes the Force tick in them, will the ability spread to EVERY Borg? Cause that'd be all kinds of awesome.

Where do I apply to be a Borg person?

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#247  Edited By spiderpool94

If the Empire has Sith it's them. If not it's an easy victory for the Borg.

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#248  Edited By TERMINATORXX

I'd say the Empire Star wars have much better league and higher ones too. i'll go with them here.

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#249  Edited By jwalser3

I will have to say Star Wars would win. I don't know a lot about the Borg so I could change my mind.

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#250  Edited By acer51

People don't seem to know the scale of power here.

Startrek ships only need a few fleets to utterly destroy a Planet.

Starwars people take 20 years to build ONE station capable of destroying a Planet.

Starwars also has no defense against teleporting so there's not alot the empire can do.