The Beyonder (Marvel) vs. Lucifer Morningstar (DC)

The Beyonder (Pre-Retcon):

vs.

Lucifer Morningstar (with the Demiurgic Dunamis):

Lucifer Morningstar traveling to Marvel multiverse towards know more about it and just traveling to events of Secret Wars. Beyonder sees him as a formidable opponent after all cosmic entities refused to fight him and decides to confront him.

Who will win in a battle for everything and full power?

pre retcon or final recon beyonder wins the first retcon beyonder loses.

@comic_book_fan For me, it would be a stalemate, but would give the archangel, but just barely.

Pre-Retcon Beyonder wins and this battle has been done before.

Lucifer stomps Post-Retcon Beyonder though.

When you meant by "final recon beyonder" do you mean the Inhuman Beyonder? because that version defiantly gets stomped by Lucifer.

@jackknight:

no he doesn't because all of his feats from secret wars count.

No they don't!

@rolldestroyer my good friend will tell you.

@jackknight: @comic_book_fan:

his feats (except for his fight with the celestials) were never retconned, but that's not that relevant since non of his feats were beyond multiversal. What was the most impressive thing about secret wars beyonder was that he was millions of times more powerful than all the cosmic beings combined. That's what was retconned (though there is some evidence which still says that the beyonder is more powerful than the multiverse combined, but it's generally accepted that his place of power was retconned to be below the living tribunal, eternity and the celestials)

Post secret wars beyonder was still extremely powerful, he was able to cause trans-multiversal destruction (that's a megaversal power level, meaning he was much more than a simple multiversal power).

Spiderman with Inhuman/mutant beyonder's power managed to recreate all of reality in one billionth of a second.

So non of the beyonder versions are getting stomped. That's for sure.

If the Inhuman Beyonder is below Eternity and the Celestials............... he defiantly looses horrible to Lucifer.

@jackknight:

cosmic cube beyonder is below eternity and celestials as well but.......that doesn't mean he gets stomped by lucifer.

not really, because in that particular issue the celestials were depicted as being forces of trans-infinite power (power beyond infinity), and some have theorized they come from beyond the multiverse entirely (from the realm of the true beyonders). Kubik who could hold an entire universe in his hand, and can destroy the entire multiverse, was stated to be literally dwarfed by the celestials.

Not to mention that spiderman with inhuman/mutant beyonder's power one shotted Galactus and remade all of reality, he did all that in one billionth of a second.

Lucifer gets blink stomped.

PR Beyonder

Prove? because aside from Scathan the Celestials are no more powerful than Galactus.

And Lucifer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eternity! so if Inhuman Beyonder is below Eternity then he will get stomped by Lucifer period!

I think of "All reality" I usually think of one universe not the omniverse.

FF annual #26:

Gallery

Kubik explain that despite the fact that they have infinite power in their possession their power is literally nothing when compared to the celestials, who are trans-infinite powers.

Lucifer is more powerful than eternity but not by far, since eternity has the power over infinite trans-infinite universes.

Regardless of his power ranking (because i could also show you proof that beyonder is still mroe powerful than everyone combined), he has a megaversal feat, this should be good enough that he isn't getting stomped by lucifer.

imo, it meant the multiverse.

PR Beyonder.

Morningstar via manipulation.

@rolldestroyer said:

@jackknight said:

Prove? because aside from Scathan the Celestials are no more powerful than Galactus.

FF annual #26:

Gallery

Kubik explain that despite the fact that they have infinite power in their possession their power is literally nothing when compared to the celestials, who are trans-infinite powers.

And Lucifer>> Eternity! so if Inhuman Beyonder is below Eternity then he will get stomped by Lucifer period!

Lucifer is more powerful than eternity but not by far, since eternity has the power over infinite trans-infinite universes.

Regardless of his power ranking (because i could also show you proof that beyonder is still mroe powerful than everyone combined), he has a megaversal feat, this should be good enough that he isn't getting stomped by lucifer.

I think of "All reality" I usually think of one universe not the omniverse.

imo, it meant the multiverse.

Lucifer is not multiversal, nor is he greater than Marvel Eternity. The scans of him creating his incomplete universe is well documented on the vine. 1. He didn't actually do anything but shape the energy that Michael himself stated would be unleash the energies create a universe upon his death. 2. Lucifer had a limited time after Michael's energy was unleashed in order to shape it to his will. 3. Lucifer couldn't even complete everything he wanted in time limit given the energies became fixed before he was actually done (He actually states this on panel). 4. the universe he created was nothing more than a pocket dimension being that Michael's death did not affect the greater DC universe or any other universe for that matter.

Lucifer other than creating a universe not of his own powers, has no feats what so ever that puts him above or even near Eternity. People seriously need to stop exaggerating the feat and actually read the panels. Eternity embodies multiple universes in a given dimension (unless it's multi-eternity), this include, Hell and Fear dimensions, and other pocket dimension, microverse etc.

Living Tribunal is beyond Eternity, and Pre-Retcon Beyonder was more powerful than LT. Lucifer does not stand a chance here. LT literally held the entirety of Marvel and DC universe in the palm of his hands.

so..........lucifer literally creating/shaping the planets/stars/galaxies, etc....is not good enough?

i fail to see how's that relevant.

what are you trying to say here?

Yes he did. It was shown right there on panel.

it was a multiverse as stated in lucifer nirvana. But i really don't have a problem if people see it as a universe. But there are several other indications that lucifer is multiversal.

Michael's energies were unleashed in the void (beyond creation), might wanna consider the context before trying to lowball. And the reason lucifer brought michael into the void was because michael's power would have destroyed creation.

he does. He's established to be above conceptual/abstract level beings like the endless.

Maybe you're the one who should properly read the issue before accusing others of blowing lucifer's feats out of proportions.

Pre-Recton Beyonder can kill Not only Lucifer but Micheal with him

Pre retcon Beyonder is above LT. Micheal and Lucifer are at LT's level. So beyonder would beat them both.

Nvm now that I know more about Lucy, he stomps he is absolutely immortal and is outside of the multiverse. He could destroy the multiverse with a wink. He actually created the DCU.

lucifer

pre-recton beyonder murderstomps

Pre Recton Beyonder will return in the next Secret Wars with Hickman.

Could go either way.

^ Exactly.

@notatreeabush: @the_caped_crusader: No need, there is no kids in vertigo threads anyways.

Beyonder.

@blacharrt1:

1: He created a Multivers,

2: He had limited time where do you see this?

3: Again proof?

4: Have you actually read the series? Michael energy would destroy the creation that's why Lucifer took him into the void,

Why are you lowballing Lucifer like that?

Lucifer is above death of the endless, cannot die. So how exactly does Beyonder beat him? <<< don't accuse me of lowballing Beyonder. Beyonder made ppl like Lt shit their pants.

@skyroid: Lucifer created a multiverse, Pre-Retcon Beyonder was going to wipe away the multiverse because it ANNOYED HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@oneaboveall8-26: @oneaboveall8-26: Statements<feats.

Lucifer's presence destroyed mansions of silence which housed countless rejected creations, universes and dimensions.

Also he held off the destruction to rescue his team.

And Lucifer cannot die.

He put a spell on his gates, infinitely duplicated and made so that to destroyed the gates would be to destroy creation itself. He also then compressed the infinite gates into one again then back to the letter.

He went to the void and weather he becomes the void itself is unknown.

@oneaboveall8-26: Why can't I tag this?

@skyroid: I have a theory, The most powerful being in DC is the Presence. The DC Multiverse is growing inside a blank, white, living void, its called the Overvoid. The Overvoid could be the Beyond-Realm before PR Molecule Man created a pinpoint in the Beyond-Realm to the Earth-616 universe. If that's true, the Presence would be way weaker then PR Beyonder and the Presence is stronger than Lucifer.

PR Beyonder.

Omg people really, really need to read some Lucifer comics. Lucifer has feats that dwarf anything Secret Wars MM or post MM has ever displayed.

To put Simple

MM = controls and manipulates molecules on a universal scale give or take the version being used.

Lucifer = controls and manipulates the Demiurgic power with is essentially the building block for everything. Even concepts such as magic, cosmic and primordial power, time, dreams, emotions, all fall under one big category that is the demiurgic power

molecule man repaired the multiverse with a gesture in SW as far as operating on a "universal scale " goes

@supremthor:

MM's twitch reaction was a blast capable of destroying billions of dimensions.

PR Beyonder >>>>>>>>>> PR MM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LT >>> Lucifer

SMH, okay man.

And lucifer created his own multiverse outside of creation

PC Beyonder >>> The Presence, nothing else matters.

Scans proving your argument please.

It is not necessary scans. just read the issues form the Lucifer series.

So based on your statement MM >>>>> entire DC multiverse. hahahaha

@supremthor: no. Lucifer shaped Michael's energies to create what he claimed was a multiverse

But anyway. You said MM only operated on a universal scale. My post was a response to that incorrect claim

Lucifer need Michael power, to create matter out of nothing, Beyonder did it without problem and daily. For those reasons alone we have seen that these characters are in different leagues.

Yes and no, Michael is the embodiment of the Demiurgic, of with everything from magic, concepts, molecules etc all come from, hence why he refereed to as the power of God. Lucifer is pure Will Power, while YES he cant create something out of nothing, he can however manipulate all aspects of creation to his bidding.

its like asking whos more power the guy who controls molecules or the guy who who controls quarks.

And for the sake of the argument Lucy is wwwwwaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to smart to be done in by MM. Read Lucifer #41-43 were he straight out owns and outwits the titans Gyges and Garamas. and mind you the titans at the time had the full power of Yahweh, and were in the process of conquering Heaven. Also mind you during the fight lucy powers were virtually ineffective against the Titian brothers. I can post the scans later on if you guys want.

@supremthor: It doesn't matter Beyonder wins because more ppl like him.

Anyhow I would also like to point out that Michael was practically recreating creation every second as god left his name was no longer their to hold it so Michael was doing God's work

Had you known more about Molecule Man you would know that he isn't limited to controlling molecules, or matter.

@mysticmedivh: @supremthor: What are quarks?

What else can molecule man do on massive scale?