The Ancient One wields dual tessen (steel fans) as her weapons, her opponent wields standard melee gear. If said opponent does not have any, both combatants are unarmed.
Win by death or knockout.
Fight in a dojo.
The Ancient One:
vs
Opponent One: John Healy
Opponent Two: Elektra Natchios
Opponent Three: Frank Castle
Opponent Four: Thor Odinson
Opponent Five: Daisy Johnson
Opponent Six: Natasha Romanoff
Opponent Seven: Matt Murdock
Opponent Eight: Melinda May
Opponent Nine: Nobu Yoshioka
Round One: Five minutes of rest between rounds.
Round Two: Fully healed and rested between rounds.
Seriously? I think she'd kick Elektra's arse. Her integration of martial arts into her fight with Kaecilius and the Masters of the Mystic Arts (all of whom are extensively trained in the martial arts) was extremely impressive.
Not to mention the fact that her combat speed is through the roof.
Note how she was able to perform a prolonged and precise display before the arrow reached her, a display that denotes extreme technical skill.
Her integration of martial arts into her fight with Kaecilius and the Masters of the Mystic Arts (all of whom are extensively trained in the martial arts) was extremely impressive.
Was it really though, all she did was knock them into some holes and one shot some fodder (with her energy blade thing, not her own strength).
And extensively trained? They had a better grasp then your average thug, but I didn't see anything to make them overly impressive, certainly not Hand level.
Not to mention the fact that her combat speed is through the roof.
I guess that makes her faster then Elektra but given she's actually got feats against worthwhile opponents as well as the fodder showings I think she's more skilled.
If that arrow was actually fired at close proximity then I'd like to change my answer a bit;
I think that further information from the tie-in comic will change your mind.
We see sorcerers (specifically Kaecilius' followers) training extensively in the tie-in comic. It seems that mastery of the martial arts is strongly connected to mastery of the mystic arts, at least as it is taught at Kamar-Taj:
Even the way in which we see Strange training in the film is akin to a dojo, and we also saw Mordo display impressive h2h skill when he saves Strange. Yet she was whooping many of them and Kaecilius simultaneously on two occasions. Only losing in the end due to an extremely dirty trick which I don't think should be seen as a mark against her skill.
Kaecilius alone is a beast in h2h, able to defeat six of his students.
I might be misremembering, but I believe the most Elektra ever successfully fought at once was four Hand Ninja and it wasn't easy for her.
While she had few showings, I think they were extremely good ones and I would say that in terms of pure technical mastery she is higher than basically anybody in the MCU.
I think that further information from the tie-in comic will change your mind.
You would be correct. MRW I see decent feats in a tie-in that aren't War Machine's;
I'm still not convinced they're on par with the hand (due to mastery over many techniques outside of just fisty cuffs) but all of that is damn impressive.
pure technical mastery she is higher than basically anybody in the MCU.
Eh, I would stop short of saying that.
Depending on how fatigue affects her she gets to either Widow or DD in round 1, I would back Matt over her in round 2 out of familiarity but what you've posted has changed my entire view on them as martial artists.
@buildhare: Lol, yeah, sometimes these tie-ins are good for adding further context the film doesn't expand upon though, like Iron Man vs Thor. I agree they aren't on par with the Hand in terms of h2h though, not just in terms of feats but in universe. I think that will become even more apparent moving forwards, hopefully the Hand will show up in Iron Fist and get more feats.
@buildhare: Lol, yeah, sometimes these tie-ins are good for adding further context the film doesn't expand upon though, like Iron Man vs Thor. I agree they aren't on par with the Hand in terms of h2h though, not just in terms of feats but in universe. I think that will become even more apparent moving forwards, hopefully the Hand will show up in Iron Fist and get more feats.
And other times they're just complete crap, hopefully they can have more of this quality moving forwards (I particularly dislike the guidebooks for adding literally nothing to what has already been seen on screen 98% of the time, like come on have the balls to add to the story a bit or tell me about a piece of gear or character or something beyond "then this happened).
Given the rules I say she stops at frank. With no magic and no weapons, considering frank has no "standard melee weapon" means she would have to face him in pure h2h where i think she gets punched right in the mouth.
@JBobGlass: She's pretty strong though. During her first fight while both legs are lassoed, she pulled down both the rope holders simply by stepping backwards.
@guardiandevil83: im not convinced that is physical strength or just a higher level of mastery over the sling ring not to mention those guys were henchmen fodder. she is really fast but the amount of punishment we have seen frank tank and keep on ticking is pretty staggering. its not even like the rest of the MCU, he really took an american horror story level of abuse only to come back with a completely mulched foot and put more thugs down. give her a sling ring or some artifact and magic and she definitely KOs frank, but bringing her truly into Frank's world of combat I dont think she can adapt. Frank did a pretty damn good number on matt who is somehow ranked much higher at #7, which only marginally makes sense.
@JBobGlass: Do you think she could knock out his soul self? If she gets a solid hit she may pull off a win. Stephen was really freaked after that. That few seconds of hesitation may help her here.
@guardiandevil83: well I dont think she can in this battle scenario, but with full magic capabilities, possibly. Frank is pretty hearty though, he has been known to resist telepathy and even the ghost riders penance stare. Of course that is not the movie versions but he is one of the toughest and most durable guys in the MCU that i have seen, especially factoring in he doesnt really have any gifted superpowers. I think he has a better chance to resist having his astral body knocked out of his physical body easier than say resisting the power of some of the artifacts such as the sling rings.
@JBobGlass: You make good points. Like you said most of the AO's fighting works in conjunction with her magic. Still, she may get some great shots before going down.
It looks like she is a practitioner of Shaolin Gung Fu
@guardiandevil83: i think the biggest detriment against her in this battle is durability. she has shown great speed, defensive techniques and hand 2 hand skills (though they could all be somewhat enhanced by her magic) but the only time we see her actually take damage is when she get stabbed and kicked through a portal which kills her. im not saying that frank could survive falling that distance, but i think if you stabbed him he would headbutt you in the nose instead of gasp in horror.
But Kaecilius was able to fodderize six of them? Seems a bit odd.
They'd presumably been training a lot since then. The fight between Kaecilius and his students took place shortly before the events of Doctor Strange, which seemed to cover many months if not over a year.
But Kaecilius was able to fodderize six of them? Seems a bit odd.
They'd presumably been training a lot since then. The fight between Kaecilius and his students took place shortly before the events of Doctor Strange, which seemed to cover many months if not over a year.
I don't think they could have progressed that much in a period of months (going from complete fodder to their opponent to duoing someone better then him). It doesn't really make sense that they'd put such an emphasis on Strange being a quick learner if everyone could do it
But Kaecilius was able to fodderize six of them? Seems a bit odd.
They'd presumably been training a lot since then. The fight between Kaecilius and his students took place shortly before the events of Doctor Strange, which seemed to cover many months if not over a year.
I don't think they could have progressed that much in a period of months (going from complete fodder to their opponent to duoing someone better then him). It doesn't really make sense that they'd put such an emphasis on Strange being a quick learner if everyone could do it
Strange was on another level though, he went from zero knowledge of magic to being able to competently wield an infinity stone. That and his retention of knowledge due to his eidetic memory was what impressed Mordo and The Ancient One IIRC, not his martial ability specifically, though his competency there clearly increased quite a bit as well.
Look at the difference between Daredevil at the beginning of Season 1 vs the end of Season 2, he goes from struggling with 'professionals' like Healy and Rance to wrecking five Hand Ninja in 10 seconds. Fan estimates seem to indicate both seasons of DD combined only cover about a year. Daisy Johnson went from being completely untrained to being able to fight on par with high-tier S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent Kara Palamas within a year.
So there is a precedent for it in the MCU, and if we say Doctor Strange covers a year or thereabouts, I don't think it's that unrealistic to become a skilled fighter with intensive training in that period of time.
But Kaecilius was able to fodderize six of them? Seems a bit odd.
They'd presumably been training a lot since then. The fight between Kaecilius and his students took place shortly before the events of Doctor Strange, which seemed to cover many months if not over a year.
I don't think they could have progressed that much in a period of months (going from complete fodder to their opponent to duoing someone better then him). It doesn't really make sense that they'd put such an emphasis on Strange being a quick learner if everyone could do it
Strange was on another level though, he went from zero knowledge of magic to being able to competently wield an infinity stone. That and his retention of knowledge due to his eidetic memory was what impressed Mordo and The Ancient One IIRC, not his martial ability specifically, though his competency there clearly increased quite a bit as well.
Look at the difference between Daredevil at the beginning of Season 1 vs the end of Season 2, he goes from struggling with 'professionals' like Healy and Rance to wrecking five Hand Ninja in 10 seconds. Fan estimates seem to indicate both seasons of DD combined only cover about a year. Daisy Johnson went from being completely untrained to being able to fight on par with high-tier S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent Kara Palamas within a year.
So there is a precedent for it in the MCU, and if we say Doctor Strange covers a year or thereabouts, I don't think it's that unrealistic to become a skilled fighter with intensive training in that period of time.
I think Daredevil improved a lot but anyone who could take six DD's in Season 1 could take two Season 2 versions. That's pretty convoluted I know but I just don't think they can go from being the fodderest fodder to beating someone better in that period of time, especially when the guy training them is still inferior to the Sanctum Master they beat.
But Kaecilius was able to fodderize six of them? Seems a bit odd.
They'd presumably been training a lot since then. The fight between Kaecilius and his students took place shortly before the events of Doctor Strange, which seemed to cover many months if not over a year.
I don't think they could have progressed that much in a period of months (going from complete fodder to their opponent to duoing someone better then him). It doesn't really make sense that they'd put such an emphasis on Strange being a quick learner if everyone could do it
Strange was on another level though, he went from zero knowledge of magic to being able to competently wield an infinity stone. That and his retention of knowledge due to his eidetic memory was what impressed Mordo and The Ancient One IIRC, not his martial ability specifically, though his competency there clearly increased quite a bit as well.
Look at the difference between Daredevil at the beginning of Season 1 vs the end of Season 2, he goes from struggling with 'professionals' like Healy and Rance to wrecking five Hand Ninja in 10 seconds. Fan estimates seem to indicate both seasons of DD combined only cover about a year. Daisy Johnson went from being completely untrained to being able to fight on par with high-tier S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent Kara Palamas within a year.
So there is a precedent for it in the MCU, and if we say Doctor Strange covers a year or thereabouts, I don't think it's that unrealistic to become a skilled fighter with intensive training in that period of time.
I think Daredevil improved a lot but anyone who could take six DD's in Season 1 could take two Season 2 versions. That's pretty convoluted I know but I just don't think they can go from being the fodderest fodder to beating someone better in that period of time, especially when the guy training them is still inferior to the Sanctum Master they beat.
A closer comparison might actually be Daisy, who was completely untrained and unskilled, less than fodder, no skill whatsoever.
Kara could defeat six S1 versions of Daisy, but she wouldn't beat two S2 versions.
Fair enough, but basically my point is that going from unskilled - skilled is probably a closer approximation of what happened for the followers than going from skilled - highly skilled, which was the case with Daredevil. And that is more palatable in my opinion, I can buy Kaecilius fodderised them when they were in the early stages of their training but Drumm was defeated by them once they were in the latter stages, the skill differential would be huge.
Basically beating six unskilled fodder is probably quite a bit easier than beating two skilled fighter, whereas beating six skilled fighters is probably harder than beating two highly skilled fighters.
I don't see how going with either option makes the followers look good though. If Kaecilius beat 6 totally unskilled fighters then his feat against Drumm (and Drumm losing to 2 decently trained lackeys) no longer carries anywhere near as much weight. If we assume they were skilled all along then it's a big inconsistency.
I don't see how going with either option makes the followers look good though. If Kaecilius beat 6 totally unskilled fighters then his feat against Drumm (and Drumm losing to 2 decently trained lackeys) no longer carries anywhere near as much weight. If we assume they were skilled all along then it's a big inconsistency.
I've never been trying to argue that the followers are supremely skilled or anything, just that they are skilled combatants, well above regular street thugs.
My logic is this:
Defeating six armed opponents attacking from all directions with minimal effort, high speed and without being touched once, even if the opponents are only trainee martial artists, is still an impressive feat that places Kaecilius on a high skill level.
Then we see that Drumm is able to defeat Kaecilius, placing him on at least the same level.
By the time of the film, Kaecilius' followers are now at a level where two of them can defeat Drumm.
The Ancient One was capable of easily defeating Kaecilius and many of his followers, showing her to be an extremely skilled combatant.
The logic is sound, it's just I'd rather believe that Drumm losing to two of them is PIS rather then fodder being actual living beings who can improve their skills and have families, steam accounts and dreams etc. It's a daunting prospect.
The logic is sound, it's just I'd rather believe that Drumm losing to two of them is PIS rather then fodder being actual living beings who can improve their skills and have families, steam accounts and dreams etc. It's a daunting prospect.
The Ancient One wields dual tessen (steel fans) as her weapons, her opponent wields standard melee gear. If said opponent does not have any, both combatants are unarmed.
Wait do her opponents have weapons? She can't stop the rush at 3.
The Ancient One wields dual tessen (steel fans) as her weapons, her opponent wields standard melee gear. If said opponent does not have any, both combatants are unarmed.
Wait do her opponents have weapons? She can't stop the rush at 3.
He also did reasonably well against Mordo in sparring/training, being able to get him in a lock, subsequently break out of a lock and at least keep up with him until he started using the boots of Valtorr even though it was a surprise attack while he was struggling to sustain/create his weapon. Given that he is a master of the mystic arts alongside Drumm and Kaecilis and that we saw him easily dismantle three thugs, it's safe to say that Mordo is a highly skilled martial artist.
R1: could stop at Thor because I think Frank would hurt her because of size and strength advantage and she wouldn't have the weapons against them two and they're both a lot bigger and stronger so she'd be hurt by the time she makes it to Thor and he would overwhelm her. If she can make it past Thor she definitely Daisy she's too injured by that point.
R2: Could stop at Matt but probably stops at May she won't have the fans possibility of clearing though.
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