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#1 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

Graviton & Kang the Conqueror

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Cyborg Superman & Ronan the Accuser

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  • Both teams have basic knowledge on their opponents.
  • Both teams have functional teamwork and team members have knowledge on one another.
  • Both teams get 24 hours to prep/strategize.
  • Win by KO, Incap, Death. Permanent BFR is disallowed.
  • Graviton is sane and his powers are in their prime (Nicieza-era Thunderbolts).
  • Cyborg Superman is Pre-52 and does not have Qwardian Power Rings.

Posting Order

All debaters must follow this order; if you have a point-of-contention to raise - either wait for your turn or post it in the group PM. As agreed, this debate will have a Five-Round Limit. When the last round is complete, we'll go straight to voting. Each round comprises of the following order:

  1. Veshark (Graviton)
  2. ComicStooge (Kang the Conqueror)
  3. cosmicallyaware1 (Cyborg Superman)
  4. Sovereign91001 (Ronan the Accuser)

Battleground: New York City

Times Square, New Year's Eve
Times Square, New Year's Eve
  • Both teams start at 50 meters distance from one another, and begin prepared.
  • The battleground is heavily-populated with innocent civilians (debaters who go out of their way to indiscriminately kill these will get brownie points).
  • While the battle starts here; altering the battleground is allowed.

Let the All-Villain Showdown....Commence!

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#2 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge@cosmicallyaware1@sovereign91001

Alright guys, thread is up. Before we begin, few things we need to sort out:

  1. Should we give both teams 24 hours to strategize? Yay or nay?
  2. Posting Order: Any problems there?
  3. If you want to mention a Condition about your character or his gear....now's the time!
  4. Anything else?
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#3 Posted by Sy8000 (34818 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone using Ronan? Yah!

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#4 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@comicstooge@cosmicallyaware1@sovereign91001

Alright guys, thread is up. Before we begin, few things we need to sort out:

  1. Should we give both teams 24 hours to strategize? Yay or nay?
  2. Posting Order: Any problems there?
  3. If you want to mention a Condition about your character or his gear....now's the time!
  4. Anything else?

1. Yeah, I need to finish organizing my scans.

2. Nope

3. I'm good.

4. Let's get to it.

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#5 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001 Regarding 24 hours for strategizing...I'm talking about the characters before our fictional battle O_o...

But yeah, you know what, let's give a day or so for everyone to organize their scans and plan. I'll post my opener after that.

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#6 Posted by reaverlation (25549 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome!Tag me for this and good luck

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#7 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio
Loading Video...

You were right Veshark, I would be VERY interested in this debate. Two of my favourite debaters representing an interesting team against another diverse set of opponents to boot? Instant bookmarking!

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#8 Edited by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@comicstooge@cosmicallyaware1@sovereign91001

Alright guys, thread is up. Before we begin, few things we need to sort out:

  1. Should we give both teams 24 hours to strategize? Yay or nay?
  2. Posting Order: Any problems there?
  3. If you want to mention a Condition about your character or his gear....now's the time!
  4. Anything else?
  1. Sure, can't hurt. Even though I don't like giving somebody like Kang any extra time to prep lol.........
  2. Nope, looks fine to me.
  3. Think everything is straight forward to me. Thanks for having a location filled with tech and such for a technopath lol......
  4. not that I can think of except............fantastic job on the initial posting/OP (also very aesthetically sound, kudos)
  5. also, I also need to make sure my scans are in order...........
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#10 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge @cosmicallyaware1 @sovereign91001 Alright, I've given prep time and basic knowledge on opponents for both teams.

I'll give everyone a day or so to sort out feats and plan and stuff; then I'll get my opener up after that.

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#13 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: Fantastic. This is going to be fun!

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#15 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by lol (5441 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge @cosmicallyaware1 @sovereign91001 Alright folks, time's up! More than 24 hours have passed, so it's time to kick this all-villain showdown off with a bang. Best of luck to every debater in this battle, and let's do our best to make this an epic CaV. And of course, may the best team win.

Primer

To kick off this showdown, I’m going to give a brief breakdown of my character – Graviton. He’s not too well-known, and has been criminally underwritten in the past, but Graviton is definitely among the most powerful human villains in the Marvel U. A team-buster and genius physicist, Graviton commands one of the four fundamental forces of nature.

After surviving a freak teleportation accident, scientist Franklin Hall was imbued with the power to control gravity with his mind. Christening himself Graviton, Hall would go on to be a major-league supervillain: taking on the likes of Black Bolt, Thor, the Thunderbolts, the West Coast Avengers, and even the Avengers themselves.

Now, before I go deeper into the character’s capabilities, I have to make a clarification for Graviton. The first two scans below are Handbook entries of Classic Graviton, while the last two are an updated entry of Upgraded Graviton.

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During Fabian Nicieza’s Thunderbolts run, Graviton received a massive powers-upgrade, and this is the version of the character I’ll be using for this CaV. So bear in mind that whatever I show Graviton doing during his Classic era – he can replicate it and even do better with his current power-levels.

With that introduction out of the way, let’s get cracking.

Graviton’s Offensive Power

To summarize Franklin Hall’s powerset in one sentence: He can manipulate gravitons and anti-gravitons, which are particles that mediate gravity. He can decrease an opponent’s gravity to send him flying, or increase it so much that they sink under his own weight. He can create gravitational fields around objects, causing them to attract or repel their surroundings.

Graviton can even manipulate his own field: making him light enough to fly, or even enhancing his body’s durability. And so on, so forth. The applications for his powers are practically limitless, but let’s see how well Hall actually performs in the heat of battle. It’s one thing to have incredible power, but another entirely to use them effectively in combat.

And there’s no better place to start than Graviton’s first appearance, in Avengers #158.

His first feat comes midway through the issue. In it, Graviton has taken control of a research community in the Canadian Rockies, and decides to isolate it from the outside world. With a flick of his hand, he lifts the entire city off the ground and propels it into the air:

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Graviton’s Handbook entry lists the city as being 4 miles wide. And Hall, in his first large-scale demonstration of his power, is able to effortlessly lift hundreds of thousands of tons and suspend it all half a mile above the ground. Not too shabby for a first showing.

But that’s nothing in comparison to what comes next. When one of Graviton’s hostages contacts the Avengers, the heroes invade the floating city and confront him. What follows is Graviton’s very first fight, and he singlehandedly wastes the Earth’s Mightiest Heroes:

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Vision: The android attempts to go intangible, but even in this form, Graviton is still able to slam Vision down by increasing his gravity. Vision then tries amping his density, but Graviton makes him weightless, and the android crashes through the ceiling.

Captain America: Graviton easily incapacitates him by increasing the weight of Cap’s shield, and the Super-Soldier is defeated by his own weapon falling on him.

Iron Man & Scarlet Witch: Graviton shields himself from their beam attacks by lowering the gravity of the ground, causing the floor to rise up as a barrier. He then crushes debris into a sphere of compressed matter, and launches it at the two. Iron Man manages to shield Wanda, but both are knocked out. Interesting to note that Tony only took a glancing blow here, yet the projectile was so powerful that he still got KOed.

Yellowjacket & Wasp: Graviton increases the weight of a pencil to a ton, and spins it at the two tiny heroes, defeating the couple.

Wonder Man & Beast: Graviton knocks them both out by causing the ceiling to collapse, while increasing the weight of the falling debris.

And just like that, within the span of six pages, Graviton defeats all eight Avengers while hardly breaking a sweat. Now, what are the facts that make this showing so noteworthy?

1.Avengers Roster: This isn’t the New Avengers street-level team we’re talking about here. Granted: Cap, Beast, Yellowjacket, and Wasp are a little out of their depth; but they’ve faced superior foes before and triumphed. And the rest of this roster are solid powerhouses. Vision, Iron Man, Wonder Man, and Scarlet Witch aren’t exactly easy foes to take one-on-one. Yet Graviton took them all down with ease.

2.Zero Combat Experience: At this point in time, Graviton has had little to no experience with his powers. Hall lifting the city was the first large-scale use of his abilities, and he’s never fought with his powers before. In short, his experience at superhuman combat is nil. Compare that to the Avengers, who are all seasoned veterans with countless battles under their belt. And most of the members of this roster have been working together for over a 100 issues already, so the teamwork factor is certainly there. Yet an amateur like Graviton is able to trash them all with the power he wields.

3. Intelligent Power-Use: But it’s not just raw power that enabled Graviton to win, it was also how he used it. One thing that many forget about Graviton is that he’s still a genius. As a physicist, he has an in-depth understanding of his own abilities, and is imaginative enough to use them in unpredictable ways. Look at how he utilized different techniques to take each Avenger down and win the fight. Graviton isn’t an idiot, and even when he was an amateur – he knew how to fight smart.

4.Adaptability: And Graviton was able to come up with all those different strategies and execute them in the heat of battle. He has zero combat experience with these abilities, but was still flexible enough to adapt to every Avenger’s different powersets. What makes this even more impressive was that Graviton was unprepared. The Avengers took him by surprise, and even with minor knowledge on his opponents, he still triumphed. You could say the Avengers have no experience fighting Graviton, but the same could be said vice-versa, and to a higher degree too.

5.This was Classic Graviton: Yup. This was what he did before the upgrade.

Speaking of, why don’t we look at what Graviton can pull off post-upgrade? I’ve already gone into deep detail into Graviton’s combat skills, but let’s see to what extent his gravity powers were boosted to in Nicieza’s Thunderbolts run. Below is a great feat to illustrate the level of raw power that Graviton was packing after his upgrade.

Classic Graviton took on the Avengers and defeated them. Upgraded Graviton was able to easily reshape the surface of the Moon:

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The Mare Insularum is a crater basin on the Moon that stretches over 500km in diameter. That’s more than the length of the entire state of California. And Graviton remodels miles of rock and tectonic plates without any indication of straining himself. As Moonstone puts it in the second page, “[Graviton] can shove mountains aside”.

In short, Graviton wields an extreme level of raw power that makes him a casual city-buster at the very least. Adding to that, his powerset is also infinitely flexible; granting him a wide myriad of combat options. And Hall is also an intelligent and competent fighter: being able to adapt to various scenarios, take on multiple opponents at a time, and use his powers in creative and unpredictable tactics.

Graviton’s Defensive Power

With his offensive abilities out of the way, let’s move on to Graviton’s defensive potential. Primarily, Graviton relies on powerful force-fields to protect himself. We’ve already seen from the Moon scan above that Graviton’s shields enable him to survive in the vacuum of space. But now let’s look at how much damage these force-fields can actually take.

To do so, I’ll be returning to Graviton’s first encounter with the Avengers. After trouncing the entire team of heroes in his very first fight, Graviton then initiates his plan for world domination. With ease, Graviton erects a giant force-field across the 4-mile long floating city, and flies the entire city towards New York:

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NORAD scrambles a squadron of fighter jets in response, and the planes pummel the force-field with missiles and rockets. But all of that heavy ordnance is ineffective, and the force-field isn’t even dented. To boot, one of the fighter pilots comments that only a nuke would be able to get through, and Classic Graviton’s Handbook entry confirms this.

So what does this showing illustrate for Graviton’s defensive capabilities? For one, it shows that Graviton is perfectly capable of multitasking. As he’s drawn up a city-sized force-field, Hall is also simultaneously causing the island to fly, while also keeping the Avengers captive with gravity fields. Even the pounding by the NORAD jets doesn’t even trouble his focus.

The second point that this feat raises is that it shows the scale Graviton operates at. Graviton isn’t limited to force-fields around his body, he can summon gravity fields large enough to encompass whole cities. That’s the level his powers work at. And also consider the fact that this was a giant-sized force-field. Theoretically, a smaller force-field around his own person would be even stronger, because all that power is focused. So if a giant shield can likely tank a nuke, imagine the power needed to bypass Graviton’s standard body shields.

And again, I have to stress, this was Graviton at his Classic power-levels.

But force-fields aren’t his only defensive measure; in fact, Graviton has a second layer of protection up his sleeve. By manipulating gravitons, Hall is able to enhance his skin’s density to near-impervious levels. In the scan below, Graviton uses this technique to protect himself from a barrage of blows from Atlas and Charcoal:

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Atlas’ Handbook entry puts his max Strength at Rank 7 – the highest level attainable. Charcoal’s strength is unclarified, but presumably he’s a high-tier brute as well. And yet Graviton is able to tank their repeated blows with no problem. In fact, the scan even states that he can only feel some of the pain because of the gravity-cancelling armbands they’re wearing. Meaning that if Hall was at full-power, he wouldn’t even feel anything.

And another factor to note is that Graviton’s durability enhancement seems to be instinctual. Presumably he already has it activated at the start of a fight, because even when he’s taken by surprise (like the feat above), his density is already amped. Case in point, here he survives the Hulk landing on him:

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Without warning, the freaking Hulk is air-dropped on Graviton, but Hall’s enhanced density allows him to survive the hit. Now it’s important to note that this is Current Graviton, who is nowhere near his prime. Making this feat all the more noteworthy.

But if one really wants to take it further back: let’s look at the enhanced density of a Graviton that’s even weaker than his Classic and Current versions. Let’s look at a Graviton whose powers were severely dampened as the result of a head injury. A Graviton who has been rotting in the Raft prison for years, and whose powers are rusty from disuse. A Graviton who has gone crazy and is now a ranting lunatic.

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Here Graviton takes down all of the New Avengers with ease. He even weighs Spider-Man down with such intense levels of gravity that Peter's ribs are crushed and he gets knocked out. But then Extremis Iron Man shows up and surprise-charges Graviton at speeds of Mach 3. Tony sends Graviton flying through debris from the impact, but Hall’s enhanced skin tanks the blow.

Then the bloodlusted Iron Man blasts Graviton with a Uni-Beam. The caption states that Tony’s Uni-Beam went up to 73% at 10,000 Kelvin. That’s twice the heat of the surface temperature of the Sun. And again, it’s presumably Graviton’s increased density that saves him from the attack.

And this was a crazy and weakened Graviton who was still able to tank these attacks. To close this section off, Graviton possesses two main methods of protection that are extremely difficult to penetrate. The first is a force-field that at his upgraded power levels, could very well tank multiple nukes. The second is Graviton’s enhanced durability, which even at his weakest point, was still able to sustain a Mach 3 attack and twice the heat of the Sun’s surface.

Opening Tactics

Now that I’ve covered Graviton’s capabilities in detail, it’s time to start my argument for this debate’s scenario. Both Cyborg Superman and Ronan the Accuser are very formidable combatants indeed, but they’ll have a hell of a tough time with what Graviton and Kang have planned for this battle.

As this CaV’s conditions state, both teams get basic knowledge on their opponents, as well as 24 hours to prep and strategize. And as I’ve covered above, Graviton is intelligent enough to counter a variety of powersets with his own diverse abilities. With the knowledge of Cyborg Superman’s powers as a technopath, and Ronan’s Universal Weapon – Graviton can formulate strategies to counter his opponents here.

But the real catch of ComicStooge’s and my team is actually Kang himself. Now let’s be frank here: Kang is undoubtedly the most intelligent tactician and the best prep-master of anyone in this debate. And with Kang on Graviton’s side, our team’s tactics will be efficient, and we’ll also have a far broader selection of resources to draw on.

So without further ado, let’s get to our team’s opening tactics.

1. Shields

The very first thing that Graviton will do is to start up his own defensive measures. This will take less than a second. First he’s going to increase his skin’s density to superhuman levels. Then he’s going to prep a personal force-field. Nothing short of a nuke is going to penetrate Graviton now. Kang’s shields will also be active.

2. Ronan’s Universal Weapon

Next, Graviton will instantly neuter Ronan’s greatest asset: his weapon. Even with the 50m starting distance, Graviton can manipulate the Universal Weapon effortlessly. While he was in the Los Angeles, Hall was able to mentally pick a pebble up from China, and within seconds...fly it to Australia before shooting it through a person’s head:

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Graviton later reveals that this wasn’t a random victim – it was a specifically-chosen target. This not only shows the range of Graviton’s powers, but the sheer precision that he’s able to utilize as well:

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With a flick of his hand, he’ll instantly increase the weight of the Universal Weapon to several million tons. The Weapon will slip from Ronan’s hands and crash to the ground before falling through the Earth. Ronan doesn’t have the strength to pick it up, and hypothetically has no defenses to this attack. Either way, the Weapon will be underneath the Earth’s crust within seconds, with no hope of retrieval.

3. Gravity Dome

After this, Graviton will summon a massive dome of gravity to cover all of Times New Square. All four villains will be trapped inside it. This should take no more than a second, and both Cyborg Superman and Ronan will be unaware of it until it’s too late (as Graviton’s fields are invisible to the naked eye). Everything the dome will be pressed down with several million tons of gravitational pressure. Only Hall and Kang will be immune, thanks to Graviton’s manipulation of their two respective g-fields.

4. Kang runs interference

While Graviton is doing all these massive displays of power (which shouldn’t take more than 2 or 3 seconds, really), Kang will be protecting Graviton and distracting Cyborg Supes & Ronan. I’ll leave this for ComicStooge to cover at length with his own post.

5. Assault

Theoretically, once this plan is put into action, two things have happened: Ronan has lost his greatest weapon, and both Ronan and Cyborg Supes will now have their movements restricted by millions of tons pressing down on them. With the enemy’s team at a severe disadvantage, Graviton and Kang will then close in for the kill, and finish them off.

And that concludes the opening strategy for Graviton & Kang the Conqueror. Now of course, this tactic is still up for debate – I’m sure our opponents have their own counters, and you can bet that ComicStooge and I have a few tricks up our sleeve. We’ll also cover other factors like how Graviton & Kang will actually defeat their enemies later on. But for now, I think this should suffice as an opening post.

Your turn, @comicstooge

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#18 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark:

I'll have my response up within 12 hours. It's almost midnight here and I'm quite tired, but I'll have my response first thing in the morning.

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#19 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark:

I'll have my response up within 12 hours. It's almost midnight here and I'm quite tired, but I'll have my response first thing in the morning.

Nah don't sweat it man. In your own time. ;)

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#20 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet Opener

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#21 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: very nice man. *fistbump screen*. This IS going to interesting to say the least isn't it. Well then, looks like I have my work cut out for me now.................don't make this easy or anything, sheesh.....

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#22 Edited by reaverlation (25549 posts) - - Show Bio

...0_0 nice.

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#23 Edited by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Kang the Conqueror:

Alright, I'll now take over from my partner and introduce my combatant, Kang the Conquerer. He's always been one of the Avengers greatest enemies and once you examine the guy, it's quite easy to see.

For one thing, let's look at his origin:

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The guy's been a warrior for decades, across multiple timelines. He's conquered thousands upon thousands of civilizations, enslaved trillions and is even one of the few men to bring 616 Marvel Earth to it's knees, in canon.

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The man is a true Conqueror and is far from being the joke his design would have you believe.

Anyway, onto his handbook entry:

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This just lays down the basics for the guy.

Just a cool fact, Kang has the knowledge of all other Kangs from across the timeline, put into one body:

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So the guy has countless years worth of battle experience from the various Kangs across time.

Now, onto the meat of this argument.

Offensive Power

Kang's armor and time manipulation powers give him a near endless arsenal of vastly powerful weapons to utilize.

For starters, he's packing blasts like this:

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He leveled part of a city in a single attack.

He's got powerful eye beams:

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He casually one-shots Iron Man in his Iron Lad form:

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And for the record, yes, Iron Lad is literally just a younger Kang:

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However, Kang's armor's offensive blasts aren't his only method of attack.

He can pull weapons out of the time stream:

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He can essentially fetch whatever high powered gun he wants:

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And what sort of heat can Kang pack?

Enough to hurt the Surfer!

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He's got a glove that releases energy powerful enough to make Thor weight half a planet:

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And has guns that are made to bypass an enemy shields:

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However, the most dangerous weapon he can summon in this thing:

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Just look at that power on display. He outright nuked a city with it.

Defensive

Kang has ridiculously powerful shields.

Using them, he survived a nuke:

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And even a blast from Silver Surfer:

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Not only that, but hitting his shields with an energy attack only increases his power supply, thereby making his shields stronger:

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However, even without his shields, he still has awesome durability:

He's taken a pounding from Thor:

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Twice:

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Even a trashing from Thor while the Odinson was bloodlusted:

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And he's fallen from orbit, resulting in him having his entire armor basically shut down:

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Yet he was still in good enough condition right after that, to give Cap a good fight:

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Not bad considering he's over 70 years old (though thanks to the various effects of his time travel and the level of medical care in the future, he ages a lot slower than we do).

However, his most effective defensive ability in this case, will be his ability to stop, slow down and otherwise manipulate time:

He's shown capable of stopping time since he was a child:

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He's stopped Wolverine cold in his tracks, while in combat:

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And he's also froze Nick Fury in time:

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This ability is probably the core reason why I chose Kang in this match.

Opening Tactics

Alright, I'll just follow through with my partner's tactics.

1) Shields

In conjunction with Graviton's shields, Kang's own will serve to improve our defense. Henshaw and Ronan will be hard-pressed to break them in time before we counterattack. Kang's used this strategy before against Quicksilver, so it's quite obvious this is the route the team will take.

2) Preventing a Blitz

Now, likely the most dangerous thing about fighting a guy like Henshaw is his speed, which is why Kang will take that away from him with his time manipulation. Kang's time manipulation will freeze Henshaw, if not it'll at least severely limit his speed. Since his speed will be compromised, he'll be far easier to attack.

3) Backing up Graviton

Kang's next step will be to amplify Graviton's own gravity abilities, using his own manipulation of weight, as shown against Thor in the above scans. Considering he made Thor feel like he had the mass of half a planet, using this attack to increase the power of Graviton's own ability might just crush Ronan to death and do major damage to Henshaw.

4) Bring the Rain

Alright, now that the difficult stuff is done and Ronan will likely be a smear in the ground, if not heavily impeded by Graviton's power, Kang can come out of his shield and just spam weapons at Henshaw until he's nothing but scrap. He can simply lay down the fire until Henshaw and the whole area around him is reduced to nothing, so he has no machinery close by to put his consciousness into and he's thereby defeated.

Alright, I think that's my post done.

I await your responses, @cosmicallyaware1 and @sovereign91001!

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#24 Posted by reaverlation (25549 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice @comicstooge.You're most dangerous here IMO

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#25 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice @comicstooge.You're most dangerous here IMO

true. except against a tecnomorph that has crazy technopathy and Superman's DNA.

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#26 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice @comicstooge.You're most dangerous here IMO

Haha, thanks man.

Kang reigns supreme!

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#27 Edited by reaverlation (25549 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation said:

Nice @comicstooge.You're most dangerous here IMO

true. except against a tecnomorph that has crazy technopathy and Superman's DNA.

I know about Hank.But then again so does @comicstooge ;)

@reaverlation said:

Nice @comicstooge.You're most dangerous here IMO

Haha, thanks man.

Kang reigns supreme!

No problem

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#28 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 said:

@reaverlation said:

Nice @comicstooge.You're most dangerous here IMO

true. except against a tecnomorph that has crazy technopathy and Superman's DNA.

I know about Hank.But then again so does @comicstooge ;)

@comicstooge said:

@reaverlation said:

Nice @comicstooge.You're most dangerous here IMO

Haha, thanks man.

Kang reigns supreme!

No problem

yeah, sadly i realize that all too well!!!!! I know that stooge has represented Henshaw previously...............oh well, i am know for being the underdog in debates lol, just how i like it!!! much respect here against the opposition btw.......

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#29 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: sorry I didn't get to this so far today, will be able to post my opener tonight. Work was crazy today.........

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#31 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: sorry I didn't get to this so far today, will be able to post my opener tonight. Work was crazy today.........

It's cool, I'm looking forward to it ;)

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#32 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36334 posts) - - Show Bio

This looks fun, but Ronin feels out of place considering he has way too many low showings. With that said, tag me for voting.

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#33 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero said:

This looks fun, but Ronin feels out of place considering he has way too many low showings. With that said, tag me for voting.

Lol. I'm sure Sovereign has a few tricks up his sleeve. The conditions for this CaV were that anyone could choose any high-tier character they wanted, as long as they weren't god-level like an Asgardian or cosmic.

And will do, mate.

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#34 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark@comicstooge@sovereign91001: ok, time to put some work in here!!!

The Cyborg Superman (Hank Henshaw)!!!!

Henshaw is a very, very dangerous opponent! On the Vine here he is fairly well know, but I will give a quick origin.....

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Cyborg Superman, also known as "The Cyborg" is an evil counterpart to Superman with a robotic body designed using Kryptonian technology and genetics. Blaming Superman for the death of his wife Terri Henshaw, he has sworn revenge and even impersonated him during Reign of the Supermen!. In his capacity as Grandmaster, he also acts as an antagonist to Green Lantern and the Green Lantern Corps. Henshaw's greatest wish is to die, although due to his physiology this might be impossible

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Now that's out of the way, let's discuss Powerset:

As a result of the cosmic radiation, Hank Henshaw underwent a rapid degeneration but at the moment of his death, his consciousness jumped into a nearby computer. From that point on, his consciousness became tied to machines. He can posses machines and anything even remotely electronically mechanical and is able to control them completely with an ability he calls "technomorphing". Unlike most technopaths, he doesn't just command them, he incorporates them into himself and any nearby technology becomes an extension of himself. He can take any machine and, once it's a part of him, he can transform it into anything his mind can imagine, and thanks to his time spent traveling across the universe, he can imagine a lot. And, even before becoming a living energy signal, Hank Henshaw was a genius, so this only adds to what he can come up with. The Cyborg is not limited by the uses or parts in the original machine, which makes this ability all the more dangerous. Due to the fact that parts of the Cyborg are cloned from Superman's DNA, he has many of the Man of Steel's powers. He has exhibited heat vision (and other kinds of vision), super strength, super speed, invulnerability, and flight. It is assumed that if he created biological lungs for himself he could duplicate Superman's freeze breath, but he has not done so at this time. As with machines though, Cyborg Superman can modify his Kryptonian parts beyond their original limits and weaknesses. He has already removed his Kryptonite weakness and his understanding of biology seems so complete that he can create more living Kryptonian parts from machinery. Cyborg Superman is also immortal, being able to live no matter what happens to his physical body.

Other weapons at his disposal include Willhunters, nanites which he uses to enslave a person's mind and make them loyal to the Manhunters

So all that fantastic Tech that Kang brings to the table???? That's just fodder for Henshaw to manipulate.

Offensive Capabilities

  • Like stated previously, Henshaw utilizes Kryptonian powersets such as Strength, Speed, Flight, Heat Vision and Durability. These were on par enough to put Mongul to shame, give Lanterns a tough time, and the vast majority of the Superman family.....all at once roughly.
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  • Insane Technopathy and Technomorphing capabilities. Good luck Kang. We are in a city that if filled with Tech right? Playground is all i can say..........
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That should be sufficient for now............

Defensive Capabilities

Henshaw has some substantial Defensive feats (which I will get into full detail later on) but will showcase some here.

  • Tanking Omega Beam (1st shot low end)
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  • Tanking Blasts of high power (random)
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  • Adaptability. Can morph into anything needed for fight, and can switch conciousness into other tech forms.
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  • Really can't be killed! Parralax Hal Jordan (put conciousness into source wall, reduced him to just energy), Darkseid (once again, only reduced him to energy), and Sinestro Corps War proved that.
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and that should suffice for that for now....

Ok, now.........

Opening Tactics.........

First off, wow to the opposing team. Some serious opposition here, and fantastically laid out strategy. Henshaw and Ronan have their work cut out for them. Going to keep it simple here.

1. Technological Control over Battlefield.

As soon as the Battlefield is surveyed, Henshaw uses Technopathic abilities to seize control over every piece of Technology in the surrounding area....now the entirety of Times square is ours to utilize which Henshaw begins to alter to our whims......instantly slaughtering all the civilians in the area so they will not be in the way. Fabrication of Tech such as sonics to break Graviton's concentration will be essential as well.

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2. Diversionary tactics, confusion is key.

Henshaw creates duplicates of himself out of materials he seized control of. That way his opponents will not know which Henshaw is really him as a defensive measure. This will lead to subterfuge and "smoke and mirrors".

3. Compromise Kang Tech.

Realizing that one of his opponents is clad in technology, Henshaw feverishly works on negating those abilities, similar to how he infiltrated Steel's (John Henry Irons) armor. This will cut Kang off from his Techno reserves and arsenal.......no armor, no access.

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and that should do it for opener. over to you Sovereign!!!!

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#35 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: @veshark@comicstooge

I'll have an opener up tonight at the latest.

@lukehero said:

This looks fun, but Ronin feels out of place considering he has way too many low showings. With that said, tag me for voting.

Watch me work son.

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#36 Posted by Experio (18215 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for voting.

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#37 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Edited by sheryinistoosexy (756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001 Can't wait to see what you got for Ronan!

I'm rooting for you guys!

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#40 Posted by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Edited by sheryinistoosexy (756 posts) - - Show Bio

Keep this thing going!

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#42 Edited by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark@comicstooge@cosmicallyaware1

Alrighty it's my turn. In the name of full disclosure let me just tell everyone I tend not to drop a lot of scans at one time, so they'll be appearing on a 'as needed' basis. With that said, let's get to it. It's likely thought that Ronan is the weakest character here, and while it is true that he may not have the physical power of some of the heavier hitters here, he more than makes up for any shortcomings in that department with tons of versatility largely due to his signature piece of gear: The Universal Weapon.

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In addition to having an awesome name, The Universal Weapon is a piece of Kree technology that allows the user to manipulate cosmic energy to lots of different effects including but not limited to stasis fields, force fields, energy manipulation, matter transmutation, teleportation, scanning, temporal manipulation, flight and if all else fails it's makes a nice hammer.

Henshaw is dealing with Kang's tech at the moment so, I'll focus on Graviton. Since my opponents have shown no quarter, it'd only be right for me to return the favor. Despite it not being a well known fact Ronan is a fairly intelligent guy and even with basic knowledge on who he's facing he'd try to equalize the playing fieldm so his first move will be to use the Universal Weapon to cancel out the gravity in his vacinity.

Here he demonstrates that power on Nebula.

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I see no reason why he couldn't turn this effect in his local area and nullify/dampen Graviton's initial assault against him. Ronan actually has a bit of experience using Gravity based weaponry, he has a portable black hole device that he's used against the Fantastic Four before to nuetralize Mr. Fantastic so this is nothing out of his wheel house. With that accomplished he can go to work with his hammer and with his powers nullified in the immediate vicinity Ronan should be able to do some serious damage to Graviton,

Alternatively since this is the opening round and who strikes first can be argued he could easily put Graviton in a stasis field before his attacks and turn his own powers against him, he's used a similar tactic to disable Black Bolt before.

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Or use the Universal Weapon's matter manipultion/transmutation abilities to turn Graviton into a living bomb as he said in his Annihilation mini-series "It is just Molecules and Atoms, both of which can be rearranged."

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#43 Posted by Sovereign91001 (7483 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: bravo buddy, short and sweet. Think we stand a chance here!!!!

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#45 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, awesome arguments from the opposing team. But now it's time to bring this debate into Round 2!

Countertactics: Cyborg Superman

@cosmicallyaware1

Regarding Cyborg Superman's technopathy tactics, I'll leave those for @comicstooge to counter, since Henshaw seems to be predominantly targeting Kang here. As for Henshaw's duplicates, I don't think they'll matter in the long run. Everything within Graviton's dome will weigh millions of tons in seconds, and Cyborg Superman's duplicates will just be crushed, as they're made of scrap metal.

But as for Cyborg Superman's sonic technology…now, you proposed that Henshaw would use this tactic to disrupt Graviton's focus. But there are two problems here. Problem One: You forgot that Kang was running interference for Graviton, and could very well preemptively destroy this technology beforehand (Back me up here, CS!).

Problem Two:Graviton is perfectly capable of manipulating sound. A tactic like that might have worked on Classic Graviton, but it certainly won't in this debate. Read Upgraded Graviton's entry in the Marvel Handbook, and allow me to quote the pertinent part of his bio:

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"His power even affects forms of energy such as sound or light by manipulating their particles or waves - enabling him, for instance, to bend light waves to view distant locations".

In the scan below, Graviton is able to detect the radio waves from Mockingbird's Avengers communicator, and was able to easily redirect them towards the skies.

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And in this next scan, Graviton effortlessly contains Scream - an entity made of solid sound - by creating a vacuum around him, permanently dispersing his sonic form.

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So even if Cyborg Superman's sonic devices were to bombard Graviton with soundwaves, Graviton could either casually reflect them, or make the waves disappear into thin air. It'll barely even slow his concentration down. Plus, remember that Graviton is able to "perceive the entire world through its gravitational field, and he can manipulate gravity anywhere in the world regardless of his own location", as the Handbook puts it. There's no reason he can't just detect and crush Cyborg Superman's sonic machines with a wave of his hand.

And if all else fails, there's still that personal force-field of Graviton's ;)

Countertactics: Ronan the Accuser

@sovereign91001

Now as for Ronan, I do acknowledge that the Universal Weapon is an extremely potent and versatile weapon that’s not to be underestimated. You’ll note that the very first thing Graviton’s doing in this battle is to nullify it. For now, you’ve argued that Graviton’s tactic of making the Universal Weapon weigh millions of tons wouldn’t work due to the Weapon’s ability to manipulate gravity as well.

It’s a decent counterargument, but to retort, that strategy won’t work because the Weapon’s gravitational control is nowhere near Graviton’s. Namely, Graviton’s gravitational powers hold three advantages over Ronan’s Universal Weapon: power, speed, and sheer range.

Power

You showed a scan of Ronan’s Weapon being able to BFR Nebula into the atmosphere by cancelling her gravity. But, unless there are other showings of this gravity-tech, there is nothing to suggest that Ronan’s Weapon matches Graviton in terms of sheer power. What Ronan did to Nebula was small-potatoes for someone with Franklin Hall’s abilities.

Even if we assume that Ronan’s Universal Weapon can make itself lighter to counter the effects of Graviton’s power, I doubt it’ll even be the least bit effective. Ronan’s hammer only showed the power to merely lower the gravity of a single individual in that scan. Graviton was able to simultaneously lift 35+ cities across the entire planet:

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And as I showed earlier, Graviton’s degree of gravitational power was able to reshape a 500km stretch of the Moon’s surface. So unless Ronan’s hammer has shown this degree of gravitational power, its tech shouldn’t be even be able to slow Graviton making the Universal Weapon weigh millions of tons. Graviton’s power-level simply outclasses anything the Weapon could use to counter that.

Speed & Range

You also argued that ‘who strikes first’ is debatable, but as I showed in my scans, Graviton clearly has the upper hand here. For one, Graviton is capable of flight (an advantage I believe Ronan does not possess), which grants him the ability to keep well out of Ronan’s range. And there’s also the fact that his flight speed is clearly supersonic, seeing as how Graviton is able to hit escape velocity and then return back to Earth in a matter of minutes:

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But more importantly, Graviton can make the Universal Weapon weigh millions of tons before Ronan could even do anything. Ronan apparently needs to aim or get into combat range with Graviton in order to use powers like transmutation or a stasis field. On the other hand…Graviton doesn’t even need to see Ronanto work his magic.

As covered in several scans above, Graviton is capable of perceiving anything on the planet, and is able to affect any object’s gravity with a flick of his hand. I posted a scan where Graviton (while in the U.S.) was able to mentally pick a pebble from China and fly it all the way towards Australia. That’s an estimated 4600 meters of distance there.

But more importantly, Graviton was able to make the pebble reach Australia within seconds. That’s the speed at which Graviton’s powers work at. The moment the battle starts, after drawing up his shields, Graviton simply waves his hand. And Ronan’s hammer will immediately weigh millions of tons before the Kree Accuser can even do anything. In terms of power, Graviton is essentially quicker on the draw.

Conclusion

Based on the counterstrategies your team has put forth so far, I don’t think either one would seriously hamper Graviton’s efforts here. Hank’s sonic technology won’t mess with Graviton’s concentration, though whether or not he’ll be able to affect Kang is an argument I’ll leave for my partner. And as for Ronan, his Universal Weapon simply has no defenses against the scale and power of Graviton’s abilities. Within the first few seconds of the battle, Graviton will have nullified Ronan’s greatest advantage, and the weapon will be too heavy for Ronan to pick up. And then that would be that.

You're up, Kang the Conqueror.

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#46 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

This has been such a brilliant debate already even in its opening rounds. I can't wait to see how this battle will progress! :D

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#47 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

This has been such a brilliant debate already even in its opening rounds. I can't wait to see how this battle will progress! :D

agreed. Also I will second the "DAYUM!" statement,..................*whew*............this is challenging to say the least!!!!

@veshark:

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#48 Edited by sheryinistoosexy (756 posts) - - Show Bio

Dang. That's a really good argument.

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#49 Edited by Veshark (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger Glad you're enjoying it, L ;)

@cosmicallyaware1 Haha thanks man. Honestly that second post was a little rushed. I'd already had a busy morning and I was totally burned out after posting in ICFTW's tourney...

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#50 Edited by Wolverine008 (51027 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, you guys got done in one page more than what me and ComicStooge got done in 2 pages of trash talking in our Cyclops vs Wolverine thread.