Tarrasque vs. Etrigan

vs.

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- Etrigan gets 2 weeks of prep in hopes of finding a way to destroy the beast

- Etrigan can use pre- and new-52 feats

- In character

- Battlefield: Tokyo

- Start 200 yards apart

- If Etrigan wins, Vandal Savage gets to eat the Tarrasque

@Joygirl: what can Tarrasque do?

@joeagentofhand1 said:

@Joygirl: what can Tarrasque do?

Unkillable, completely unkillable. The best you can do is K.O it for a little while and it comes back. Oh and it's all but immune to magic and anything that can be defined as a ray has a 30% of bouncing right back at you. It's also stronger than dragons and gods and has a ludicrous healing factor and natural armor you need godlevel weapons to even think of piercing.

@joeagentofhand1: Borderline-indestructable mythological monster. Eats entire cities. 90 feet tall. Immune to most kinds of energy, reflects bolts and rays back against their casters, regenerates 40 points of damage every six seconds.

It is THE D&D monster. It is designed to wipe out 20th-level parties. It will regenerate from a state of death unless you cast a Wish spell on it.

For comparison: In D&D a normal human has 4 hit points. The Tarrasque (a one of a kind creature) has well over 800.

Etrigan loses, but puts up a fight

To clarify on D&D dragons, a dragon in most D&D settings is not a simple animal. It is a nigh god-like being once "fully" grown that wields tremendous magic, laughs at anything short of an epic hero's magical weaponry, can shatter adamantine, treats with archdevils, demon lords, archomentals, and high celestials as equals or superiors, and has a host of assorted added abilities depending on the type. Gold dragons for example, can create spheres around them that no-sell mid and low level magic completely (by no-sell I mean you don't even get to make any kind of roll to penetrate the effect) and see the future.

@Vrakmul said:

To clarify on D&D dragons, a dragon in most D&D settings is not a simple animal. It is a nigh god-like being once "fully" grown that wields tremendous magic, laughs at anything short of an epic hero's magical weaponry, can shatter adamantine, treats with archdevils, demon lords, archomentals, and high celestials as equals or superiors, and has a host of assorted added abilities depending on the type. Gold dragons for example, can create spheres around them that no-sell mid and low level magic completely and see the future.

And when they hear the word "Tarrasque", they get a little queasy.

@Joygirl said:

@Vrakmul said:

To clarify on D&D dragons, a dragon in most D&D settings is not a simple animal. It is a nigh god-like being once "fully" grown that wields tremendous magic, laughs at anything short of an epic hero's magical weaponry, can shatter adamantine, treats with archdevils, demon lords, archomentals, and high celestials as equals or superiors, and has a host of assorted added abilities depending on the type. Gold dragons for example, can create spheres around them that no-sell mid and low level magic completely and see the future.

And when they hear the word "Tarrasque", they get a little queasy.

In a purely physical bout, the Tarrasque would defeat anything short of the Epic Dragons, who are stronger than any god with stats once they reach great wyrm status, and even then the Tarrasque's ridiculous healing factor will allow it to simply *outlast* the Epic Dragon. That's why most Dragons just cut and run whenever he wakes up from his hibernation and gets the munchies.

@Vrakmul: Not to mention the fact that most magic is gonna do jack s***, and no AC in the game can stand up to, what is it, 9? (clawclawbitetailhornhorn, okay, 6) attacks that are all attacking at 50+.

BUT, I have to be conservative on a superhero forum. Superheroes are freaking tough and Etrigan is no slouch, he may find a way. There is also the whole "punching Superman to the moon" thing.

@Joygirl:

Well, the Tarrasque was by word of Gary Gygax (may he rest in peace), essentially intended to be a fantasy Godzilla, except he trades radioactive fire breath for being ridiculously resistant to spells. Work from there.

A sized up Tarrasque vs Godzilla fight would be a thing to see but I'd suspect a stalemate, the two's healing factors cannot be overcome by anything the other packs.

@Vrakmul: I already made that, a while back.

@Joygirl said:

@Vrakmul: I already made that, a while back.

Better yet, the D&D settings are rife with magnificent bastards and prep kings. You have guys like Asmodeus, Mordenkainen, Lolth, Rary, and most of all, Vecna; who punched out the most powerful being in the multiverse after a long, long gambit and during his brief stint as GOD screwed up reality so bad it caused 2e to become 3e.

@Vrakmul: And yet he still got his eye poked out by a vampire. *shakes head* Vecna, Vecna, Vecna.

@Joygirl said:

@Vrakmul: And yet he still got his eye poked out by a vampire. *shakes head* Vecna, Vecna, Vecna.

All part of the plan likely. His eye is still going around turning people evil. But his best trick is probably the head of vecna.

@Vrakmul: There is a head? Never heard of that, just the hand and eye.

@Vrakmul: @Joygirl: I've always explained the Tarrasque to people (not that they often ask) as the D&D equivalent of Godzilla, in a nutshell.

Boo DnD turning the Tarrasque into Godzilla! Mythologically speaking, 3rd edition had the closest Tarrasque to the actual myth as far as appearance.

However, I would say 1st and 2nd edition Tarrasque were easily the strongest.

However, Etrigan beats all of them.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Nordok: Though I consider gods and dragons and stuff to be more efficient than the japanese government.

Isn't Godzilla a better opponent? :)

@Floopay: How does Etrigan win?

Also, Tarrasque is memetic at this point. Tolkien's elves weren't much like the mythological norse elves, but damn if they're not the standard now.

@Joygirl: I think most modern governments are somewhere around the level of orcs, in terms of efficiency.

@GhostRider2: Nope, Godzilla is lame. :P

If you meant for The Tarrasque, I already made that.

@Nordok: Pillage and breed? ...That seems fair.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: How does Etrigan win?

Also, Tarrasque is memetic at this point. Tolkien's elves weren't much like the mythological norse elves, but damn if they're not the standard now.

The Tarrasque is meant to be fought by human adventurers, and is usually beaten by things incapable of lifting no more than about 5 tons.

Etrigan is stronger, faster, more powerful, wields a sword, and throw the Tarrasque into space if he wanted to. The Tarrasque has no way of even kind of winning this fight, even if Etrigan can't use his magic, the Tarrasque is still vulnerable to magic weaponry and physical force, something Etrigan has a lot of.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay said:

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: How does Etrigan win?

Also, Tarrasque is memetic at this point. Tolkien's elves weren't much like the mythological norse elves, but damn if they're not the standard now.

The Tarrasque is meant to be fought by human adventurers, and is usually beaten by things incapable of lifting no more than about 5 tons.

Etrigan is stronger, faster, more powerful, wields a sword, and throw the Tarrasque into space if he wanted to. The Tarrasque has no way of even kind of winning this fight, even if Etrigan can't use his magic, the Tarrasque is still vulnerable to magic weaponry and physical force, something Etrigan has a lot of.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Have you seen the cheese fests that high level D&D can devolve to? I have a hulking hurler build that could toss Oerth into the Sun.

@Joygirl said:

@Vrakmul: There is a head? Never heard of that, just the hand and eye.

The head of Vecna is a prank. It works because you have to remove that body part for an "x of vecna" to work. So greedy adventurers chopped off their own heads to try and gain the power of something disguised with nystul's magic aura to look like a powerful artifact.

@Floopay: *opens Calculator, finds tables*

According to my calculations:

800 x 4 = 3,200

3200 x 4 = 12,800

12800 x 24 = 307,200

307,200 / 2,000 = 153.6

So the Tarrasque can lift 153.6 tons as a heavy load.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: *opens Calculator, finds tables*

According to my calculations:

800 x 4 = 3,200

3200 x 4 = 12,800

12800 x 24 = 307,200

307,200 / 2,000 = 153.6

So the Tarrasque can lift 153.6 tons as a heavy load.

Etrigan can still fight on Superman's level in hell, even on Earth he's gotta be close the Tarrasque's strength. Plus he's faster, and just as durable.

@Vrakmul said:

@Floopay said:

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: How does Etrigan win?

Also, Tarrasque is memetic at this point. Tolkien's elves weren't much like the mythological norse elves, but damn if they're not the standard now.

The Tarrasque is meant to be fought by human adventurers, and is usually beaten by things incapable of lifting no more than about 5 tons.

Etrigan is stronger, faster, more powerful, wields a sword, and throw the Tarrasque into space if he wanted to. The Tarrasque has no way of even kind of winning this fight, even if Etrigan can't use his magic, the Tarrasque is still vulnerable to magic weaponry and physical force, something Etrigan has a lot of.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Have you seen the cheese fests that high level D&D can devolve to? I have a hulking hurler build that could toss Oerth into the Sun.

I've seen all the D&D nonsense builds, including the Pun-Pun build.

However, if we go by 1st and 2nd edition, which would be the most powerful versions of the Tarrasque, he's still created to be defeated by adventurer parties, which consist of people who are at best Captain America level.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

IOW, all this rock, compressed into a chunk:

@Floopay: Captain America level? A 20th-level fighter can tank absurd effects, like falling thousands of feet to his doom. Fireballs that demolish buildings will leave a high-level barbarian brushing soot off of his armor and grumbling about how "he just bought that cloak". You are seriously underselling high-tier D&D heroes.

Etrigan.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: Captain America level? A 20th-level fighter can tank absurd effects, like falling thousands of feet to his doom. Fireballs that demolish buildings will leave a high-level barbarian brushing soot off of his armor and grumbling about how "he just bought that cloak". You are seriously underselling high-tier D&D heroes.

Depends on what edition we're talking about. In 3rd Edition the Tarrasque can be solo'd between levels 13-16, characters who would certainly die if unaided by a feather fall item if they fell from 200 feet or higher, even a barbarian at 16th level would have probably 164 hit points at best and would take almost half his hit points in fall damage. A fireball would take down about 1/4 of their life as well, unless they are wearing something special.

In 1st and 2nd Edition it's a 20th level party monster, and bringing less than 5 people could easily spell certain doom for whoever he is fighting.

If we take into account broken builds the Tarrasque is, at best, a level 10 party monster in 3rd edition. I myself have made several builds that could easily trump the Tarrasque by 15th level solo. I played a lot of DnD and the only reason I stopped playing is because everyone became obsessed with making broken characters instead of making balanced characters that made the game challenging and more role play based, rather than minmaxing the crap out of every build.

I can't comment on 4th edition because I haven't played it.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: I knew some builds got kinda broken but imagining the Tarrasque as a tenth level monster is flabbergasting. I have pored over the monster manual -- 3rd edition tarrasque is absolutely terrifying. There is no way level 13 characters could possibly defeat it -- they couldn't even HARM it with it's DR and SR.

I am not sure what kind of campaigns you play in, but I have never been in a game that involved the Tarrasque as anything other than an unapproachable challenge, capable of easily slaughtering any mid-level character within a single round and virtually impossible to defeat.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: I knew some builds got kinda broken but imagining the Tarrasque as a tenth level monster is flabbergasting. I have pored over the monster manual -- 3rd edition tarrasque is absolutely terrifying. There is no way level 13 characters could possibly defeat it -- they couldn't even HARM it with it's DR and SR.

I am not sure what kind of campaigns you play in, but I have never been in a game that involved the Tarrasque as anything other than an unapproachable challenge, capable of easily slaughtering any mid-level character within a single round and virtually impossible to defeat.

I mostly DM'd, and the people who I really enjoyed DMing with would be in the same boat you were in.

However, most of them ended up moving away and I only see them on rare occasions. The people I ended up DMing for did things like read these sorts of guides and crap during their free time. Which made DMing with them dumb:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt

By the end I was so frustrated with them that I made the rule "If you can break your characters, then I will make NPC villains who are more broken than yours", and using my ridiculous math skills I ended up trouncing them a few times in the hopes that it would show them how stupid and unrealistic it is to break a character like that.

However, they just complained and wanted to fight dragons at 6th level with their broken builds and didn't wanna go up against any actual challenges. So as a result I only DM once in a great while with my original group of D&D buddies. In fact, I've only done 2 campaigns where they faced the Tarrasque.

The first was great, because they were 12th level (5 people), and they actually were in with a group of NPC's who were hunting the Tarrasque, and rather than fighting him head on they were using Siege weapons with Anti-Tarrasque ammo. It was really really fun. The second time was later in that campaign when they were 18th level, and they confronted him a bit more head on, but still they relied more on strategy than an actually head on confrontation.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: Alright, well, that's a little bit different. Having special strategies and equipment designed to destroy the monster is not quite the same as one man (one demon) going up against him alone. All you have proven is that with very unique and special circumstances, the tarrasque can be defeated at a level that is, obviously, insufficient.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: Alright, well, that's a little bit different. Having special strategies and equipment designed to destroy the monster is not quite the same as one man (one demon) going up against him alone. All you have proven is that with very unique and special circumstances, the tarrasque can be defeated at a level that is, obviously, insufficient.

Technically you can beat the Tarrasque with any cleric or wizard with 4th level spells if you wanna use technicalities.

But no, I mean you can build a character who can confront the Tarrasque head on at 13th level with only a 1,000 gold budget and you can actually beat him.

With a 2,000 gp budget you can take him as low as like 5th level or something like that.

Seriously, there are some really broken ways to beat the Tarrasque out there.

He's supposed to be a challenge but they released so many books with so many ridiculous feat and item combos that you can pretty much take anything.

Heck, with the right build a 5th level character can technically wipe out the whole of existence with the correct build.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: Wouldn't you rather actually consider the creature the way it is supposed to be seen, rather than the way it can be defeated with a ton of number-crunching insanity? Because, on that line of thinking, Etrigan was defeated by Green Arrow. Lowballing works both ways.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: Wouldn't you rather actually consider the creature the way it is supposed to be seen, rather than the way it can be defeated with a ton of number-crunching insanity? Because, on that line of thinking, Etrigan was defeated by Green Arrow. Lowballing works both ways.

If you read my first 4 posts on the subject I did that exact thing :P

Etrigan is faster, almost as durable, can regenerate, is about on par with the Tarrasque in strength, has as good if not a better healing factor, and is a much greater fighter.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: His healing factor is superior to something that can heal from death in less than six seconds? That is impressive. I know he has tough but I have never seem him to anything like that. He got pretty well vaporized in Reign In Hell, from something I am quite sure The Tarrasque would have survived with a small scuff.

And what are Etrigan's speed feats?

@Joygirl: wouldn't it better to put it up againt godzilla or something

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: His healing factor is superior to something that can heal from death in less than six seconds? That is impressive. I know he has tough but I have never seem him to anything like that. He got pretty well vaporized in Reign In Hell, from something I am quite sure The Tarrasque would have survived with a small scuff.

And what are Etrigan's speed feats?

The Tarrasque in 4th edition I think retreats back into the Earth after he is brought too low on hit points, he doesn't regenerate.

3rd Edition Tarrasque is immune to anything that could vaporize him, even disintegrate deals non-lethal damage to him, meaning it doesn't reduce him to ash. In fact, it's all but stated that he can't regenerate from being vaporized.

Unless of course we consider the 2nd edition version who can regenerate from so much as a single skin cell. Over and above this he is only theorized to be killable with a wish spell, as he has never been slain before.

Then there's the 1st edition Tarrasque who I don't believe can ever be fully killed. I think you needed a wish spell to wish it away, not actually kill it, and it only worked when it was at -10 hp or greater.

However, all versions of the Tarrasque are slow. 1st, AD&D, 3rd Edition Revised, 4th Edition, etc. They are also extremely dumb (animal to sub-animal intelligence) mindless creatures who do nothing but attack.

The only versions I could see standing up to Etrigan would be the 1st or AD&D versions because of their superior healing abilities (by pure stats they are beat, but if you scale them in the same manner you would scale a 2nd edition character to 3rd edition, they would be much much more powerful).

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: *opens Calculator, finds tables*

According to my calculations:

800 x 4 = 3,200

3200 x 4 = 12,800

12800 x 24 = 307,200

307,200 / 2,000 = 153.6

So the Tarrasque can lift 153.6 tons as a heavy load.

Really? is that all it can lift?

@Outside_85 said:

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: *opens Calculator, finds tables*

According to my calculations:

800 x 4 = 3,200

3200 x 4 = 12,800

12800 x 24 = 307,200

307,200 / 2,000 = 153.6

So the Tarrasque can lift 153.6 tons as a heavy load.

Really? is that all it can lift?

In D&D that's huge. In real life that's huge, that's 307,200 pounds....

D&D is supposed to be closer to a realistic fantasy tabletop rpg. So putting 5 or 10 adventurers that are peak human to Steve Rogers Peak Human up against something that powerful, is pretty ridiculous, especially if they win...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Outside_85 That's a lot. It doesn't seem like a lot next to Superman moving planets but it is a lot.

@dondave: A certainly don't think it's a stomp.

@Floopay: 3rd edition needs to be reduced to -30 and then a Wish must be used to keep it dead, otherwise it gets right back up. They also have bursts of great speed (100 I think) which is more than an average person, significantly. Are you simply saying Etrigan is faster because the tarrasque is slow?

@Joygirl said:

@Outside_85 That's a lot. It doesn't seem like a lot next to Superman moving planets but it is a lot.

@dondave: A certainly don't think it's a stomp.

@Floopay: 3rd edition needs to be reduced to -30 and then a Wish must be used to keep it dead, otherwise it gets right back up. They also have bursts of great speed (100 I think) which is more than an average person, significantly. Are you simply saying Etrigan is faster because the tarrasque is slow?

Pretty much, it has a movement of 4 squares (20 ft), unless it goes into full charge, in which case it can't really change it's trajectory... I mean it's faster than your AVERAGE person, but not leagues faster. 2nd Edition had a movement of 9 though, and a charge speed of 15.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: It has been ages since I played 2nd ed so it isn't really fresh in my mind. Still, it is less it's movement speed and more it's +50 attack rolls that Etrigan has to worry about. Throw a monk with a 90 speed and a 40 AC against the Tarrasque, he can bounce around all he likes and he will still get tagged every single time via reach and obscene attack roll.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: It has been ages since I played 2nd ed so it isn't really fresh in my mind. Still, it is less it's movement speed and more it's +50 attack rolls that Etrigan has to worry about. Throw a monk with a 90 speed and a 40 AC against the Tarrasque, he can bounce around all he likes and he will still get tagged every single time via reach and obscene attack roll.

Yes, but even decked in full strength gear a Monk is at best a 2-3 ton hero. And even that's stretching it! I'm just saying, I love DnD but I think a wizard would do better than the Tarrasque when put up against Etrigan.

Gromph Baenre, Pharaun Mizzrym, Szass Tam, etc. (for some reason I'm drawing a blank here).

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: You forgot Elminster, the one that matters. <3

When I mentioned the monk I was talking about speed. All that speed won't mean a damn thing. Strength is another element altogether, one which the tarrasque likely outclasses Etrigan.

Note: I made this battle because I thought it would be really close and could go either way. I am playing devil's advocate.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: You forgot Elminster, the one that matters. <3

When I mentioned the monk I was talking about speed. All that speed won't mean a damn thing. Strength is another element altogether, one which the tarrasque likely outclasses Etrigan.

Note: I made this battle because I thought it would be really close and could go either way. I am playing devil's advocate.

I never said it'd be a stomp, but I'd route for Etrigan all day.

And I sat here trying to remember Elminster's name, was bothering the heck out of me. However, Pharaun is my favorite wizard, and always will be.

If you haven't read the War of the Spider Queen series yet, I would recommend it. Probably my favorite book series I've read thus far.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay: I may. I got kinda sick of the entire Drow scene after like 17 Drizzt books though.

Also, if you are looking for a really amazing book series, try the First Chronicles of Amber. The FIRST -- first five. Five more after, don't touch those.

@Joygirl said:

@Floopay: I may. I got kinda sick of the entire Drow scene after like 17 Drizzt books though.

Also, if you are looking for a really amazing book series, try the First Chronicles of Amber. The FIRST -- first five. Five more after, don't touch those.

I've never cared much for Drizzt. However, for me this book series contained the drow written properly.

I'll look into those books after I finish the Lady Penitent series. Just finished Survivor by Chuck Palahniuk (or however you spell it), which was an amazing book, and am just moving back into fantasy.

If you are looking for a good book with a messed up premise that is filled with self loathing and torment, read Survivor. However, War of the Spider Queen series was also really well written :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay