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#1 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio
  • New52/Rebirth
  • Close quarter combat only. Jason gets a crowbar and Talia gets a sword.
  • They start 15 ft apart.
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#3 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43240 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing stalls Daredevil while Jason beats the piss out of Talia. Jason with two melee weapons and with Grayson backing him now kicks the ever living shit out of an unarmed Daredevil.

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#4 Posted by BruceRogers (17450 posts) - - Show Bio

Pressure points.

/thread.

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#5 Posted by BruceRogers (17450 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah but in all fairness, team two win. Talia is a weak link and Matt cant beat both of the bat boys at once.

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#6 Posted by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

DD is slightly yet noticeably above NW however he's below RH since it's implied he's even more skilled, trained and experienced (quality not quantity) in CQC and H2H combat than every brat-family member and most of DC's martial artists and fighters while having feats to back him up, Talia is the main problem it needs to be replaced by someone else. I can see DD taking NW down however he cannot beat RH.

Pressure points.

/thread.

You made my day ( night to be exact).

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#7 Posted by BruceRogers (17450 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Hood is not more skilled than Matt. Not even close.

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#10 Posted by King-Ragnar (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia is a noticeable weak link.

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#11 Posted by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes said:

@michaelbn: Where is it implied?

by his feats not statements some people also mentioned his fighting skills.

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#12 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by King-Ragnar (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

Red hood isn't even better than Nightwing, let alone Daredevil.

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#14 Posted by diydeath (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@king-ragnar: He sort of is but depends on what area we're talking about. N52 Jason has hung with people like Shiva and he won't hesitate to kill which makes him particularily threatening.

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#15 Posted by King-Ragnar (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@diydeath:

He sort of is but depends on what area we're talking about.

Grayson is virtually better than him at everything. Even if we include Pre and Post FP showings.

N52 Jason has hung with people like Shiva and he won't hesitate to kill which makes him particularily threatening.

New 52/Rebirth Jason got humiliated by Batman on more than one occasion. His instance with Lady Shiva is a low end showing for her more than it is a high end showing for him.

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#16 Posted by BruceRogers (17450 posts) - - Show Bio

@diydeath: Shiva was sandbagging during that fight (along with a couple of others). Daredevil has faced or beaten opponents with loose morals countless times, so Jason isnt bringing anything new to the table.

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#17 Posted by Eeef (2120 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt needs a better teammate.

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#18 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16200 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2. I look at Matt and Nightwing as virtual equals, but Talia is definitely a weak link and she can't take Jason. Even if the matchups were switched around, Jason is gonna last a lot longer against Matt than she lasts against Dick.

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#19 Edited by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes:

People call his feat from beating Shiva PIS because they didn't see some kind of "Hollywood martial arts" which is in most of comics or/and they're jealous cuz bats never did something like this, all he did was using her arrogance like "Shaolin style" martial artist against herself with a special technique she taught him herself, it's not a small feat.

Cassandra​ Cain, I don't really know what is going on, but it seems many people consider her even better than Batman. It worth mentioning she just make other dangerous and skilled fighters (brat-family for example) look like clowns by using those 'move/body reading abilities' Jason was the only one who figured this out and almost killed her because Nightwing interrupt them.

Kicking the crap out of a bit nerfed Deathstroke with ease while using no toys, something IIRC Batman never did.

Looks like people don't like to accept this fact that Jason has been improved since 2005 and they all still see him as "a batman punisher poor mix". I'm not saying Todd will solo but he have a slim yet noticable superiority over both Matt (my favorite marvel character) and Dick.

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#20 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelbn:

People call his feat from beating Shiva PIS because they didn't see some kind of "Hollywood martial arts" which is in most of comics or/and they're jealous cuz bats never did something like this, all he did was using her arrogance like "Shaolin style" martial artist against herself with a special technique she taught him herself, it's not a small feat.

Well, I can understand them. Jason literally says that Shiva considered him incapable of beating people of her caliber in hand to hand combat so she gave him some shortcut technique. That sounds like, well, bull. So is he as good as Shiva or does he simply have some technique that helps him fight much more skilled fighters. How does it makes sense unless you say 'It's comic!' I don't disagree with you here though, merely point out the possible reason for common disbelief.

Cassandra​ Cain, I don't really know what is going on, but it seems many people consider her even better than Batman. It worth mentioning she just make other dangerous and skilled fighters (brat-family for example) look like clowns by using those 'move/body reading abilities' Jason was the only one who figured this out and almost killed her because Nightwing interrupt them.

Dick stated that she was not trying to beat/fight him. Point is she was holding back - gonna check the issue.

Kicking the crap out of a bit nerfed Deathstroke with ease while using no toys, something IIRC Batman never did.

Slade wasn't a bit nerfed back then -- he was largely hindered. His healing factor was compromised by Snakebite's venom from ten days ago (the same toxin made human's head explode like a baloon) and got shot in the back before the fight even started. On top of that add what he just went through in LexC. - fighting an army of cloned Bizzarros ain't small feat and he himself mentioned that he is off-game and could use a long vacation. And even then Jason only gained an edge when he pulled out the guns which, if not for the weakened healing factor, Slade could have shrug off like he did against Ra's stabbing him right through the biceps.

Jason fought an exhausted and hindered Slade and only won thanks to gear.

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#21 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Team two wins.

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#22 Posted by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes:

The thing is she thought herself superior to him and he just taught her a lesson, he used it to humiliate her not making some sick action things.

I don't remember dick said anything she just ragdolled him while he was talking guess it was Batman eternal issue.

Some people overestimate things, by a bit I meant he lost most of his superhuman abilities but he still had a small bit of them and Todd used nothing but guns to make Slade's guns useless, not using some sort of sci-fi super gadgets like bats.

They're solid feats and mostly even, Todd is better than before hell even Dick is better than Batman in some aspects but Didio don't want people to acknowledge this cause it'll ruin "The Bat-god"

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#23 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelbn: 1. I don't think that's what Jason described during his fight with Shiva. He stated she deemed him incapable of beating fighter of her caliber -- that's why she taught him some shortcuts which so he can gain upper hand which comes back to my previous point.

2. He said it after Jason's fight with Cassandra.

3. His healing factor was wrecked. He was pummeled by bunch of Super-Gorillas and shot right before the fight. He admitted to being off-game and in need of rest. Even then he got put down with guns, not by sheer skill. Slade was a wreckage back then.

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#24 Posted by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes:

1- but don't you think it was when he was just a Robin??? Or brawler to be exact

2- he said yes but he didn't show any feat of acknowledging her "reading" abilities or making a counter while Todd found out easily by trading few kicks and punches.

3- It won't make that much difference Slade had his toys and weapons, not to mention Todd wanted to talk to him to get her girl or something while he wanted to fight, he just used guns to make sure Slade isn't going to use them.

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#25 Edited by King-Ragnar (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

This is why context matters.

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#26 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelbn:

1. The thing is that dialogues implies something else. Jason doesn't say "Hey, I was a hot-headed Robin back then. Now I can take you fair and square". Todd mentiones the shortcuts which is why a lot of people find this feat stupid.

2. Point is that Cassie was holding back against Jason. I'm not comparing his performance with Nightwing's but to be fair he had blades and didn't underestimate her like Dici did. Good feat tho. I'm just mentioning the context you left out.

3. What won't make much difference? That Slade was exhausted, off his game and shot? He was hindered a lot. End of the story.

And what toys? Swords? Because that's the only weapon he used against Jason who used knife and guns. And no, he didn't use pistol to make sure Slade won't use his, he did that to stop Slade from charging at him.

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#27 Edited by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes said:

@michaelbn:

1. The thing is that dialogues implies something else. Jason doesn't say "Hey, I was a hot-headed Robin back then. Now I can take you fair and square". Todd mentiones the shortcuts which is why a lot of people find this feat stupid.

2. Point is that Cassie was holding back against Jason. I'm not comparing his performance with Nightwing's but to be fair he had blades and didn't underestimate her like Dici did. Good feat tho. I'm just mentioning the context you left out.

3. What won't make much difference? That Slade was exhausted, off his game and shot? He was hindered a lot. End of the story.

And what toys? Swords? Because that's the only weapon he used against Jason who used knife and guns. And no, he didn't use pistol to make sure Slade won't use his, he did that to stop Slade from charging at him.

I know he mentioned it, but considering the fact his friends (Roy and Kori) were in trouble he couldn't just stand there and yell "Yo, let's do sick 'hollywood martial arts' cuz it gonna look cool"

Dick lol btw where it's mentioned or said she were holding back, he just made fun out of the others, yes he didn't underestimate her but using those blades on his hands actually shows he knows he need to finish this encounter soon, and thanks for filling the context. thumbs up.

the thing won't make difference wasn't about Slade's physics but his gadgets, sure that hindering gave Todd a terrific advantage but, Slade tried to use toys but IIRC he didn't had those, he used environment as a weapon which Todd reacted the same and he used swords to put him down which he used environment and his knife showing his CQC skills, he used it first to make sure he's not gonna charge (which he did) and slicing him and then making his guns useless. it's still a solid feat to show he can use literally anything as a weapon in a close combat situation and in this situation he have a crowbar.

Note: it's an opinion and I'm sure it's a unpopular one but we can agree that New52/Rebirth Jay is very close (if not on par) with bats, at least.

P.S: guess the problem was with me since I wasn't to clear and explained shortly cuz I'm a bit busy, but I tried to answer as good as I can, hope you're not irritated cuz I was a bit lazy.

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#28 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelbn:

I know he mentioned it, but considering the fact his friends (Roy and Kori) were in trouble he couldn't just stand there and yell "Yo, let's do sick 'hollywood martial arts' cuz it gonna look cool"

The thing is that he did it far too easy. People call it bull because it's either:

a) Jason fodderizing Shiva despite being much less skilled because he used some shortcut technique.

b) Jason fodderizing someone whom he shouldn't logically fodderize (this scenario assumes she is at least close to her usual skill level) or he would be by far the most skilled fighter in Bat-Family. Heck, that would be sensei level showing.

None of those scenarios makes so much sense but I can see both sides making good points.

Dick lol btw where it's mentioned or said she were holding back, he just made fun out of the others, yes he didn't underestimate her but using those blades on his hands actually shows he knows he need to finish this encounter soon, and thanks for filling the context. thumbs up.

Dick only said she was trying to protect him and could't explain herself because she, well, can't speak. Jason did read her reading him which is already a very impressive showings.

he thing won't make difference wasn't about Slade's physics but his gadgets, sure that hindering gave Todd a terrific advantage but, Slade tried to use toys but IIRC he didn't had those, he used environment as a weapon which Todd reacted the same and he used swords to put him down which he used environment and his knife showing his CQC skills, he used it first to make sure he's not gonna charge (which he did) and slicing him and then making his guns useless. it's still a solid feat to show he can use literally anything as a weapon in a close combat situation and in this situation he have a crowbar.

My point is that Slade was exhausted and weakened in that instance. Decent showing but just that in my book. As for the toys, Slade didn't try to use any gadgets.

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#29 Posted by King-Ragnar (4168 posts) - - Show Bio
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

"On Par"

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#30 Posted by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: I can't argue anymore, you have my salute. I just wanted to make sure Jay isn't gonna be lowballed like other battle topics he's in.

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#31 Posted by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

"On Par"

I don't know but this isn't even a fight let alone being fair, he just joked around and didn't give a crap or two about getting his butt kicked and the 4th scan is after his "hot kiss" and being desperate while being ragdolled a few minutes ago.

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#32 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by King-Ragnar (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelbn:

I don't know but this isn't even a fight let alone being fair

Jason vs Batman has never been fair given that Batman is tiers above him in terms of skill.

he just joked around and didn't give a crap or two about getting his butt kicked

Really? If he was joking around then he obviously wouldn't taken out his guns and start shooting.

the 4th scan is after his "hot kiss" and being desperate while being ragdolled a few minutes ago.

He was being rag dolled by Bruce, till Bizzaro saved him then Bruce later continued to man handle him.

They've only fought twice in New 52/Rebirth. One in Batman and Robin (2011) #20, where Bruce was asking Jason to hit him and the other is the instance i showed you in which Bruce flat out humiliated him.

@foxerdes:

What issue is that from?

Red Hood and The Outlaws Vol 2 #25

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#35 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Batfam.

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#36 Posted by Slade-Prime (1484 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

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#37 Posted by foxerdes (10257 posts) - - Show Bio

@king-ragnar:

They've only fought twice in New 52/Rebirth. One in Batman and Robin (2011) #20, where Bruce was asking Jason to hit him and the other is the instance i showed you in which Bruce flat out humiliated him.

I think that they fought once more when Bruce bear hugged him and got electrocuted.

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#38 Posted by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelbn:

Jason vs Batman has never been fair given that Batman is tiers above him in terms of skill.

Seriously?? if it was post-crisis I would've agreed but new52/rebirth have plenty of feats and they're in a same tier in terms of fighting skills.

Really? If he was joking around then he obviously wouldn't taken out his guns and start shooting.

Riddle me this: IF your hovering HQ is going to crash on a metro-city like gotham with your best friends in while a huge pain-in-the-ass with a dumb moral code wants to kick the crap out of you what you're going to do??? use your guns to back him off or just yelling "come on!! let's beat each other"

He was being rag dolled by Bruce, till Bizzaro saved him then Bruce later continued to man handle him.

They've only fought twice in New 52/Rebirth. One in Batman and Robin (2011) #20, where Bruce was asking Jason to hit him and the other is the instance i showed you in which Bruce flat out humiliated him.

The hell did I said??? that was exactly my saying being dolled by Bruce. but seriously show me even a hint of "fight spirit" in Jay, he's not even giving a crap about getting kicked, all he wants is to save his pals, if he wanted to do something he would've tricked him with his toys and killing him immediately. he did nothing but throwing a kick with no hope after losing his friends not to mention even before this fight Jay was way more messed up than Bruce.

You think so??? he was still standing and saying I'm standing Jason, begging for more, not to mention he was all fuzzy by Jay's punches, you think he couldn't snap his necks or shoot him or something???

Thrice, In first rebirth of RHATO again batman locked him with a hug and pressing him while he immediately said he doesn't have any desire to fight with him, also through out RHATO he always mentioned his prep with matters in that fight he just buzzed him with a charged shock to cut the fight not keeping it on tracks. four times if you count he nearly killed him in a flash-back.

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#39 Posted by King-Ragnar (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@michaelbn:

Seriously?? if it was post-crisis I would've agreed but new52/rebirth have plenty of feats and they're in a same tier in terms of fighting skills.

No, they're not. RHATO proved that. He's not even as good as Nightwing, let alone Batman.

Riddle me this: IF your hovering HQ is going to crash on a metro-city like gotham with your best friends in while a huge pain-in-the-ass with a dumb moral code wants to kick the crap out of you what you're going to do??? use your guns to back him off or just yelling "come on!! let's beat each other"

Continuously dismissing the showing isn't helping your argument.

The hell did I said??? that was exactly my saying being dolled by Bruce. but seriously show me even a hint of "fight spirit" in Jay, he's not even giving a crap about getting kicked, all he wants is to save his pals, if he wanted to do something he would've tricked him with his toys and killing him immediately. he did nothing but throwing a kick with no hope after losing his friends not to mention even before this fight Jay was way more messed up than Bruce.

Pretty sure you're in denial at this point. Not going to bother continuing this.

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#40 Edited by Michaelbn (2407 posts) - - Show Bio

@king-ragnar said:

@michaelbn:

No, they're not. RHATO proved that. He's not even as good as Nightwing, let alone Batman.

Any scan???


Continuously dismissing the showing isn't helping your argument.

I'm dismissing nothing, all I want is to put yourself in his place and decide.

Pretty sure you're in denial at this point. Not going to bother continuing this.

Okay lol, I call yours an opinion while I call mine an opinion too.

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#41 Posted by geekryan (4732 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing stalls Daredevil while Jason beats the piss out of Talia. Jason with two melee weapons and with Grayson backing him now kicks the ever living shit out of an unarmed Daredevil.

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#42 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3753 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing and Red Hood stomp the shit out of Matt and Talia.

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