Tag team battle

Kaine

Spider-Man

VS

Midnighter

Deathstroke
Post Edited:2008-01-07 18:04:00

Colt Python says:

"Kaine and Spider-man are done.I don't think the can win."

I think they can pull it off. Kaine is stronger and faster than Spider-Man (even after The Other) and corrodes flesh on contact. He has pre-cognitive abilities and is ruthless. I think they can take it.

Colt Python says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"Colt Python says:

"Kaine and Spider-man are done.I don't think the can win."

I think they can pull it off. Kaine is stronger and faster than Spider-Man (even after The Other) and corrodes flesh on contact. He has pre-cognitive abilities and is ruthless. I think they can take it."

I don't know.This is a hard one to figure out.I want to go with Spidey & Kaine but Midnighter and Deathstroke overcome the most ridiculous odds."

It can go either way, but I don't see you beating a guy that knows the future and his crazy strong. I don't see it happening.

Where are they fighting? Like do they just run into each other? No prep?

Midnighters computer is dialed in for combat, he knows an opponents move before they use it. Kaine sees glimpses of the future, to me thats a whole different thing. Is it the future as it pertains to the fight? Is it the future 20 years down the road? Midnighter knows whats happening now, right then before it happens. Not only that, he knows what moves to use and when to use them. This all happens in a matter of seconds.

Deathstroke is a master tactician, taking down someone with greater strength and speed is no big deal for him. I see no way Midnighter and Deathstroke lose.

Colt Python says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"Colt Python says:

"Kaine and Spider-man are done.I don't think the can win."

I think they can pull it off. Kaine is stronger and faster than Spider-Man (even after The Other) and corrodes flesh on contact. He has pre-cognitive abilities and is ruthless. I think they can take it."

I don't know.This is a hard one to figure out.I want to go with Spidey & Kaine but Midnighter and Deathstroke overcome the most ridiculous odds."

I still think that Kaine and Spidey can take the cake

Gambler says:

"Where are they fighting? Like do they just run into each other? No prep? Midnighters computer is dialed in for combat, he knows an opponents move before they use it. Kaine sees **glimpses** of the future, to me thats a whole different thing. Is it the future as it pertains to the fight? Is it the future 20 years down the road? Midnighter knows whats happening **now,** right then before it happens. Not only that, he knows what moves to use and when to use them. This all happens in a matter of seconds. Deathstroke is a master tactician, taking down someone with greater strength and speed is no big deal for him. I see no way Midnighter and Deathstroke lose."

He sees glimpses of the future but those are very vital glimpses. Midnighter isn't undefeatable, he's been defeated. We had a battle thread with Midnighter and Peter before, we agreed Peter would win due mainly to his Spider-sense. I him winning the majority of the time. Kaine is a beefed up Spidey as well. I for one think that they can take down Stroke and Night after a long battle.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Gambler says:

"Where are they fighting? Like do they just run into each other? No prep? Midnighters computer is dialed in for combat, he knows an opponents move before they use it. Kaine sees **glimpses** of the future, to me thats a whole different thing. Is it the future as it pertains to the fight? Is it the future 20 years down the road? Midnighter knows whats happening **now,** right then before it happens. Not only that, he knows what moves to use and when to use them. This all happens in a matter of seconds. Deathstroke is a master tactician, taking down someone with greater strength and speed is no big deal for him. I see no way Midnighter and Deathstroke lose."

He sees glimpses of the future but those are very vital glimpses. Midnighter isn't undefeatable, he's been defeated. We had a battle thread with Midnighter and Peter before, we agreed Peter would win due mainly to his Spider-sense. I him winning the majority of the time. Kaine is a beefed up Spidey as well. I for one think that they can take down Stroke and Night after a long battle."

Of course he can be defeated, but not by Spiderman and Kaine. Again, even if they are vital glimpses, they are in fact just that, glimpses. Midnighter has run through thee entire fight before it ever begins. Spiderman has a hard time going toe to toe with the Green Goblin, whatya think Midnighter's gonna do to him? Deathstroke has performed moves that make Superman stop in astonishment. Both Midnighter and Deathstroke are meticulous tacticians, even without prep there minds are constantly playing chess with there opponents. Hell in Civil War, Cap dictated Spiderman's movements so he could land a hit. Thats exactly what both Midnighter and Deathstroke would do, move here and do this, so there opponents will react and move here.

As far as a long battle, Midnighter is made for that. His healing factor keeps him in every fight. He's repaired his heart in the middle of a fight, as well as fighting with a broken neck. All Kaine's glimpses are gonna do, is show him he should get the hell outta dodge.

Post Edited:2008-01-07 19:02:26

Kain spiderman kain was enough to take on like three spider mans besides that he can see a little in the furture.

Gambler says:

"Of course he can be defeated, but not by Spiderman and Kaine. Again, even if they are vital glimpses, they are in fact just that, glimpses. Midnighter has run through thee **entire** fight before it ever begins. Spiderman has a hard time going toe to toe with the Green Goblin, whatya think Midnighter's gonna do to him? Deathstroke has performed moves that make Superman stop in astonishment. Both Midnighter and Deathstroke are meticulous tacticians, even without prep there minds are constantly playing chess with there opponents. Hell in Civil War, Cap dictated Spiderman's movements so he could land a hit. Thats exactly what both Midnighter and Deathstroke would do, move here and do this, so there opponents will react and move here. As far as a long battle, Midnighter is made for that. His healing factor keeps him in every fight. He's repaired his heart in the middle of a fight, as well as fighting with a broken neck. All Kaine's glimpses are gonna do, is show him he should get the hell outta dodge."

Let's handle the Green Goblin situation right now. Goblin is on Peter's platform as far as powers. He's got more than enough gadgets at his disposal so you can't exactly blame Peter for struggling with him. Cap is a different story. Steven should never have been able to touch Peter, this is one of those rare times where Buckshot and I agree on details, so that was the writer's fault. Mid and Death are threats, don't get me wrong but considering the fact that Peter and Kaine are much faster than both of them, Peter's not stupid so he'll hold his own. I see Kaine brutality being an issue because if he gets his mits on Death (which he can), he'll end up killing him thanks to his ability to destroy flesh on contact. Peter'll be able to stand up to Midnighter for a while because Midnighter isn't moving faster than him, they're keeping up the pace. I see the webs being a massive factor in this fight because Spider-Man is really an unprectable character. Kaine's abilities are greater than those of Peter so he'll be the real threat. The Spidersense will guide the spider from danger so I don't see him getting hit that easily.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Gambler says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"Gambler says:

"Of course he can be defeated, but not by Spiderman and Kaine. Again, even if they are vital glimpses, they are in fact just that, glimpses. Midnighter has run through thee **entire** fight before it ever begins. Spiderman has a hard time going toe to toe with the Green Goblin, whatya think Midnighter's gonna do to him? Deathstroke has performed moves that make Superman stop in astonishment. Both Midnighter and Deathstroke are meticulous tacticians, even without prep there minds are constantly playing chess with there opponents. Hell in Civil War, Cap dictated Spiderman's movements so he could land a hit. Thats exactly what both Midnighter and Deathstroke would do, move here and do this, so there opponents will react and move here. As far as a long battle, Midnighter is made for that. His healing factor keeps him in every fight. He's repaired his heart in the middle of a fight, as well as fighting with a broken neck. All Kaine's glimpses are gonna do, is show him he should get the hell outta dodge."

Let's handle the Green Goblin situation right now. Goblin is on Peter's platform as far as powers. He's got more than enough gadgets at his disposal so you can't exactly blame Peter for struggling with him. Cap is a different story. Steven should never have been able to touch Peter, this is one of those rare times where Buckshot and I agree on details, so that was the writer's fault. Mid and Death are threats, don't get me wrong but considering the fact that Peter and Kaine are much faster than both of them, Peter's not stupid so he'll hold his own. I see Kaine brutality being an issue because if he gets his mits on Death (which he can), he'll end up killing him thanks to his ability to destroy flesh on contact. Peter'll be able to stand up to Midnighter for a while because Midnighter isn't moving faster than him, they're keeping up the pace. I see the webs being a massive factor in this fight because Spider-Man is really an unprectable character. Kaine's abilities are greater than those of Peter so he'll be the real threat. The Spidersense will guide the spider from danger so I don't see him getting hit that easily.

"

Who says Kaine goes for Deathstroke first? As I said, Midnighter's seen the battle already. Gone over a million plus scenarios and come up with the best plan for victory. If he's seen in fact, that Deathstroke matches up better with Spiderman then Kaine, then he's gonna let him know. Webs? Are you joking, this guys dodge bullets on a regular basis. Deathstroke uses more then just his hand to hand combat, he carries a small arsenal of grenades, guns, Staff (with a blaster) and swords. Except for the swords, he doesn't need to get close to either one. Midnighter also has super speed (in bursts)and combine that with the fact the battle has already been played out in his head, he would know when and where to best utilize it.

Spiderman and Kaine may be faster, but not to the point where its a massive advantage, both Midnighter and Deathstroke have above human abilities in terms of reflexes, speed and agility.

I disagree with Captain America not being able to hit Spiderman. As I pointed out, the writers went out of there way to show Cap using his tactical genius to lure Spiderman into the best position to land a hit.

Deathstroke and Midnighter are playing chess, Spiderman and Kaine are playing checkers.

Gambler says:

"Who says Kaine goes for Deathstroke first? As I said, Midnighter's seen the battle already. Gone over a million plus scenarios and come up with the best plan for victory. If he's seen in fact, that Deathstroke matches up better with Spiderman then Kaine, then he's gonna let him know. Webs? Are you joking, this guys dodge bullets on a regular basis. Deathstroke uses more then just his hand to hand combat, he carries a small arsenal of grenades, guns, Staff (with a blaster) and swords. Except for the swords, he doesn't need to get close to either one. Midnighter also has super speed (in bursts)and combine that with the fact the battle has already been played out in his head, he would know when and where to best utilize it. Spiderman and Kaine may be faster, but not to the point where its a massive advantage, both Midnighter and Deathstroke have above human abilities in terms of reflexes, speed and agility. I disagree with Captain America not being able to hit Spiderman. As I pointed out, the writers went out of there way to show Cap using his tactical genius to lure Spiderman into the best position to land a hit. Deathstroke and Midnighter are playing chess, Spiderman and Kaine are playing checkers."

Eternal Chaos says:

"We had a battle thread with Midnighter and Peter before, we agreed Peter would win due mainly to his Spider-sense. "

Where was this? The only Midnighter/Spider-Man thread with significant discussion that I can recall was the one I made. In that one, there was no unanimous decision on the outcome of the fight (I maintained Midnighter would win) and on the subject of spider sense/battle computer specifically, Midnighter's was seen as more useful in their fight. If I'm wrong about any of that, please point me to the thread.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Cap is a different story. Steven should *never* have been able to touch Peter, this is one of those rare times where Buckshot and I agree on details, so that was the writer's fault."

Cap should never touch Spider-Man with normal attacks, but attacks that put him in a position so he can be hit (by setting up multiple moves which Pete's sense can't warn him of) are totally viable. That's something that both Midnighter and Deathstroke can do.

Buckshot says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"We had a battle thread with Midnighter and Peter before, we agreed Peter would win due mainly to his Spider-sense. "

Where was this? The only Midnighter/Spider-Man thread with significant discussion that I can recall was the one I made. In that one, there was no unanimous decision on the outcome of the fight (I maintained Midnighter would win) and on the subject of spider sense/battle computer specifically, Midnighter's was seen as more useful in their fight. If I'm wrong about any of that, please point me to the thread. Eternal Chaos says:

"Cap is a different story. Steven should *never* have been able to touch Peter, this is one of those rare times where Buckshot and I agree on details, so that was the writer's fault. "

Cap should never touch Spider-Man with normal attacks, but attacks that put him in a position so he can be hit (by setting up multiple moves which Pete's sense can't warn him of) are totally viable. That's something that both Midnighter and Deathstroke can do."

It wasn't a unanimous vote, however there were more votes for Peter, I believe Methos, Valkaad, Nobody, and myself were leaning towards Peter in that battle. I don't recall the exact numbers but I recall a long discussion about it, and in the end the majority of votes going towards Parker.

The attacks set up were viable, but you cannot deny it looked as though he was holding back because if he wanted to, he could've either gone stealth mode or just pulled the shield away and killed Steve. That's the fact.

Outsmart Midnighter in terms of a fight? Its like you've ignored the fact that Midnighter has gone over MILLIONS of possibilities and scenarios. Spiderman at beast is thinking three moves ahead, and thats giving him the benefit of the doubt. A trap for someone who has gone over every possible outcome in a matter of seconds? Really? I don't see it.

I already said Midnighter's speed was in bursts. Thats why I added, "combine that with the fact the battle has already been played out in his head, he would know when and where to best utilize it."

They may not fall for Midnighter's and Deathstrokes plan, but thats the great thing about being a tactical genius, your prepared for that.

Punisher, Daredevil, Wolverine, Gambit, Green Goblin, Kingpin, and the list goes on and on. All these characters have landed hits on Spiderman, are those all examples of bad writing? Tell me, if Spiderman's spidersense alerts him to a kick from Deathstroke, and Midnighter is counting on him dodging it and launches an attack at the same time, even if Spiderman's spidersense goes off, whats he going to do? Dodge it? Of course, but guess what, Midnighter's counting on it. There's only so much someone can do against an opponent who's seen every possible outcome.
Post Edited:2008-01-07 19:35:43

Eternal Chaos says:

"It wasn't a unanimous vote, however there were more votes for Peter, I believe Methos, Valkaad, Nobody, and myself were leaning towards Peter in that battle. I don't recall the exact numbers but I recall a long discussion about it, and in the end the majority of votes going towards Parker.The attacks set up were viable, but you cannot deny it looked as though he was holding back because if he wanted to, he could've either gone stealth mode or just pulled the shield away and killed Steve. That's the fact."

So you're saying that multiple people can't be wrong at one time? Please.

Yeah, Peter was holding back, but that doesn't make the tactic that was used against him any less effective. Midnighter or Deathstroke could easily maneuver Pete into a position where any move he makes results in him getting hit, and he wouldn't be warned by his spider sense that he was getting set up because that's not how it works, but that's exactly how Midnighter's and DS's minds work. He can easily dodge normal attack, but when every dodge has been calculated to put him into a more and more dangerous spot, he's just walking into a trap.

Pete and Kaine take this.

Gambler says:

"Outsmart Midnighter in terms of a fight? Its like you've ignored the fact that Midnighter has gone over **MILLIONS** of possibilities and scenarios. Spiderman at beast is thinking three moves ahead, and thats giving him the benefit of the doubt. A trap for someone who has gone over every possible outcome in a matter of seconds? Really? I don't see it. I already said Midnighter's speed was in **bursts.** Thats why I added, "**combine that with the fact the battle has already been played out in his head, he would know when and where to best utilize it.**" They may not fall for Midnighter's and Deathstrokes plan, but thats the great thing about being a tactical genius, your prepared for that. Punisher, Daredevil, Wolverine, Gambit, Green Goblin, Kingpin, and the list goes on and on. All these characters have landed hits on Spiderman, are those all examples of bad writing? Tell me, if Spiderman's spidersense alerts him to a kick from Deathstroke, and Midnighter is counting on him dodging it and launches an attack at the same time, even if Spiderman's spidersense goes off, whats he going to do? Dodge it? Of course, but guess what, Midnighter's counting on it. There's only so much someone can do against an opponent who's seen every possible outcome.
Post Edited:2008-01-07 19:35:43"

Midnighter's thinking of a million different possibilities is astounding but for some reason I can still think of Peter being able to fight back against him and figure out a way to handle him. Midnighter can't sit there all day trading punches and kicks with Spider-Man because Spider-Man is too strong for him to do that with. I see Spider-Man thinking something up, because he has a habit of of combining defense, with offense. The fight between him and Midnighter would be a very interesting one simple because of how the two characters' movements and decisions would play out.

Buckshot says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

" It wasn't a unanimous vote, however there were more votes for Peter, I believe Methos, Valkaad, Nobody, and myself were leaning towards Peter in that battle. I don't recall the exact numbers but I recall a long discussion about it, and in the end the majority of votes going towards Parker. The attacks set up were viable, but you cannot deny it looked as though he was holding back because if he wanted to, he could've either gone stealth mode or just pulled the shield away and killed Steve. That's the fact."

So you're saying that multiple people can't be wrong at one time? Please. Yeah, Peter was holding back, but that doesn't make the tactic that was used against him any less effective. Midnighter or Deathstroke could easily maneuver Pete into a position where any move he makes results in him getting hit, and he wouldn't be warned by his spider sense that he was getting set up because that's not how it works, but that's exactly how Midnighter's and DS's minds work. He can easily dodge normal attack, but when every dodge has been calculated to put him into a more and more dangerous spot, he's just walking into a trap."

So you're saying you can't be wrong?

That's how their minds work, but like I said, Peter needs one good hit on either one of them and it's over. I don't see them surviving a 25 ton punch to the skull, do you?

Eternal Chaos says:

"I think they can pull it off. Kaine is stronger and faster than Spider-Man (even after The Other)."

what was the other? last i knew spiderman was a teenager and living in New York city with his healthy young aunt. LMAO

Eternal Chaos says:

"Midnighter's thinking of a million different possibilities is astounding but for some reason I can still think of Peter being able to fight back against him and figure out a way to handle him."

Anything Pete "figures out" while fighting is something Midnighter will have known and had a counter attack for from the very first second of battle. There's nothing he can do that Midnighter won't be prepared for. The same is not true vice versa, which is why Midnighter (or Deathstroke) can still hit him despite his spider sense.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Midnighter can't sit there all day trading punches and kicks with Spider-Man because Spider-Man is too strong for him to do that with."

You're right here, Spider-Man is much stronger than Midnighter, but there are some factors that make it so a prolonged close range fight could end well for him. Midnighter could end the fight in one hit. He's good with nerve strikes and could conceivably kill or paralyze Pete with one without much effort. His punch may not kill Peter (though a well placed one could incapacitate him) but if he can kill with a finger, a super strong punch isn't necessary. And then there's reasons why a prolonged fight with Spider-Man, even one where Midnighter gets hit, won't necessarily end with Midnighter being taken out of battle. I really don't believe any blows from Spider-Man (again, assuming they land) would stop Midnighter for several reasons. First, I doubt any hits would be solid ones. With his own speed and advanced warning (computer) he can move so as to minimize the damage from each hit. Second, his pain sensors can be turned off. That means that he won't feel anything more than a small sensation telling him that he's been hit. Third, the only damage I've seen that's really stopped him from fighting for any length of time included lots of blood and large holes in his body. I just don't see Spider-Man as that vicious. He'd probably try to trap Midnighter rather than cripple him or put a fist through his chest (things that would slow Midnighter considerably, but still not stop him). None of this is to say that if Spider-Man managed to tag Midnighter repeatedly he could ignore it forever, but if Spider-Man is close enough to hit Midnighter, he's close enough to get hit, and despite being weaker, Midnighter could kill him in one hit. Midnighter has taken damage just to get closer to his enemy, so I think if he's getting hit, it's just so he's close enough to hit back.

Regardless of all that though, the argument that was being made for either Midnighter or Deathstroke (or both) to beat Spider-Man was not of an up close fight, but tricking and trapping him. Spider-Man can't stop that and wouldn't even see it coming.

Eternal Chaos says:

"I see Spider-Man thinking something up, because he has a habit of of combining defense, with offense. The fight between him and Midnighter would be a very interesting one simple because of how the two characters' movements and decisions would play out. "

Again, anything Pete thinks up is old news to Midnighter.

Eternal Chaos says:

"So you're saying you can't be wrong?That's how their minds work, but like I said, Peter needs one good hit on either one of them and it's over. I don't see them surviving a 25 ton punch to the skull, do you?"

Can be, but I don't feel as if I was proven wrong there. And of all battles, this is one where I would have to be proven wrong 110% simply because of who's fighting. If there's even one chance in a million(or more) that Midnighter can win, he most likely will because that's what he does. There only needs to be one right way for him to win.

Midnighter could also kill with a single hit. And while I don't see either of them surviving one of Peter's full on hits, I don't see them needing to.

Buckshot says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

" Midnighter's thinking of a million different possibilities is astounding but for some reason I can still think of Peter being able to fight back against him and figure out a way to handle him."

*Anything* Pete "figures out" while fighting is something Midnighter will have known and had a counter attack for from the very first second of battle. There's nothing he can do that Midnighter won't be prepared for. The same is not true vice versa, which is why Midnighter (or Deathstroke) can still hit him despite his spider sense. Eternal Chaos says:

"Midnighter can't sit there all day trading punches and kicks with Spider-Man because Spider-Man is too strong for him to do that with."

You're right here, Spider-Man is much stronger than Midnighter, but there are some factors that make it so a prolonged close range fight could end well for him. Midnighter could end the fight in one hit. He's good with nerve strikes and could conceivably kill or paralyze Pete with one without much effort. His punch may not kill Peter (though a well placed one could incapacitate him) but if he can kill with a finger, a super strong punch isn't necessary. And then there's reasons why a prolonged fight with Spider-Man, even one where Midnighter gets hit, won't necessarily end with Midnighter being taken out of battle. I really don't believe any blows from Spider-Man (again, assuming they land) would stop Midnighter for several reasons. First, I doubt any hits would be solid ones. With his own speed and advanced warning (computer) he can move so as to minimize the damage from each hit. Second, his pain sensors can be turned off. That means that he won't feel anything more than a small sensation telling him that he's been hit. Third, the only damage I've seen that's really stopped him from fighting for any length of time included lots of blood and large holes in his body. I just don't see Spider-Man as that vicious. He'd probably try to trap Midnighter rather than cripple him or put a fist through his chest (things that would slow Midnighter considerably, but still not stop him). None of this is to say that if Spider-Man managed to tag Midnighter repeatedly he could ignore it forever, but if Spider-Man is close enough to hit Midnighter, he's close enough to get hit, and despite being weaker, Midnighter could kill him in one hit. Midnighter has taken damage just to get closer to his enemy, so I think if he's getting hit, it's just so he's close enough to hit back. Regardless of all that though, the argument that was being made for either Midnighter or Deathstroke (or both) to beat Spider-Man was not of an up close fight, but tricking and trapping him. Spider-Man can't stop that and wouldn't even see it coming. Eternal Chaos says:

"I see Spider-Man thinking something up, because he has a habit of of combining defense, with offense. The fight between him and Midnighter would be a very interesting one simple because of how the two characters' movements and decisions would play out. "

Again, anything Pete thinks up is old news to Midnighter. Eternal Chaos says:

" So you're saying you can't be wrong? That's how their minds work, but like I said, Peter needs one good hit on either one of them and it's over. I don't see them surviving a 25 ton punch to the skull, do you?"

Can be, but I don't feel as if I was proven wrong there. And of all battles, this is one where I would have to be proven wrong 110% simply because of who's fighting. If there's even *one* chance in a million(or more) that Midnighter can win, he most likely will because that's what he does. There only needs to be one right way for him to win. Midnighter could also kill with a single hit. And while I don't see either of them surviving one of Peter's full on hits, I don't see them needing to. "

Peter's tactics might be "old news" to Midnighter but that doesn't make them any less effective. That's like me saying I know I'll die if I go to point A. It's old news but that doesn't make it much less effective, perhaps a little less effective. Spider-Man may not be a full fledged computer like Midnighter, but he's a brilliant mind and has come to master using his environment to his advantage at all times, we've seen this in battles against the most unbelievable odds. They can still hit him, but they need to set him up properly for the hit and with him not holding back, that won't be easy.

Midnighter may not need to be stronger than Spider-Man to stop him, but he needs to be fast enough to hit him properly. And even at that, he may ignore his own pain as he's done so many times before. Don't forget, Peter has battled foes with only one arm, broken ribs, exhausted and barely able to breathe. He's even fought after being half dead (I.E. Morlun). Buck, you don't need to hit somebody with a solid 25 ton punch to hurt them. The super computer in Midnighter's head is powerful, I won't deny you that but it's bound to have one small miscalculation, there is no such thing as perfection in machines, we all know this. You don't see Spider-Man being this vicious but before One More Day, he WAS that vicious, he was running around killing anybody and everybody who defended Fisk. If Midnighter turns off his pain sensors, good for him, that doesn't mean the effects of the hits won't be noticed. True, if Peter does hit Midnighter, he's close enough to get hit himself, but it depends on the scale of the damage behind the hit.

You can't say he won't see it coming, he's a smart guy.

There only needs to be one way for him to win, but there's still the chance he can make a miscalculate.

I don't see Midnighter surviving an even half on hit or even a third on hit. This is one of those battles that it's too close to call. I'm sticking with the Arachnids though..

Kaine and Spidey. 'Nuff said.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Peter's tactics might be "old news" to Midnighter but that doesn't make them any less effective. "

If I know what you’re going to do before you do it and have a method to stop you before you can try, it does make your tactics less effective. I don’t know how you could think otherwise.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Midnighter may not need to be stronger than Spider-Man to stop him, but he needs to be fast enough to hit him properly. "

Midnighter’s fast enough. The man can play ping pong with bullets even before kicking it up to the (shady, I’ll admit) upper limits of his speed. And then you add in the fact that he knows where Pete will be at all times and he might as well be even faster. It’s not like he has to aim for Peter and hope he’s fast enough to connect, he just needs to aim for where Peter will be so when he gets there Pete’s basically running into his attacks.

Eternal Chaos says:

"And even at that, he may ignore his own pain as he's done so many times before. Don't forget, Peter has battled foes with only one arm, broken ribs, exhausted and barely able to breathe. He's even fought after being half dead (I.E. Morlun). "

Fighting through pain is not the same as fighting when your body simply won’t respond. A nerve strike (assuming it’s not a fatal one) would prevent Pete from fighting even if he wanted to. His fighting spirit doesn’t matter if his body doesn’t work.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Buck, you don't need to hit somebody with a solid 25 ton punch to hurt them. "

You’re taking my explanation of reasons a punch won’t kill Midnighter as an admission that he will be hit. I don’t think he will, I was pretty much just saying “what if?” But if (again, if) Pete hits him, why do you think Midnighter will go down? Spider-Man is very strong, but is he going to be swinging with anywhere close to his full power? When have you seen him fight human-looking enemies with his full strength? Never, because if he did, most of them would be dead. Midnighter looks like a normal guy. Scary, but normal. Spider-Man is not going to hit him with anything hard because his character dictates that he will not outright kill someone. He doesn’t know if Midnighter can take one of his real punches so he won’t hit him with one. If (again if) he tags Midnighter then sees that he’s fine, he’ll hit him harder next time. He won’t be hitting hard enough to actually hurt him for quite a while since he won’t be hitting him often. By the time he’s actually hurting Midnighter, his healing factor (he’s no Wolverine but he heals) will be fixing any damage he takes, his redundant systems will keep him going even if stuff gets broken and he won’t be slowed down by pain because he won’t feel it. And while Spider-Man is testing the waters with him, Midnighter will still be using killing strikes or just getting him deeper into a bad spot that he won’t be able to get out of. Spider-Man will be dead long before he realizes that he should be hitting Midnighter with the intent to kill or maim.

Eternal Chaos says:

"The super computer in Midnighter's head is powerful, I won't deny you that but it's bound to have one small miscalculation, there is no such thing as perfection in machines, we all know this. "

There is no such thing as a perfect machine in real life, you’re right. But this is fiction. Midnighter’s computer is perfect. It doesn’t miscalculate.

Eternal Chaos says:

"You don't see Spider-Man being this vicious but before One More Day, he WAS that vicious, he was running around killing anybody and everybody who defended Fisk. If Midnighter turns off his pain sensors, good for him, that doesn't mean the effects of the hits won't be noticed. True, if Peter does hit Midnighter, he's close enough to get hit himself, but it depends on the scale of the damage behind the hit. "

Who did Spider-Man kill? I don’t remember him killing “anybody and everybody”. Please show me. Doesn’t matter though, Midnighter and Deathstroke aren’t trying to kill Aunt May, which was the only reason he was as brutal as he was anyway (and he still didn’t kill anyone). Spider-Man rarely goes all out or anywhere near that when he fights. Midnighter and Deathstroke almost always go for the kill.

Eternal Chaos says:

"You can't say he won't see it coming, he's a smart guy. "

Midnighter and Deathstroke are both much smarter when it comes to combat. And, even if he saw it coming, Midnighter would still know how he’d act with the knowledge that it’s all a trap and would make another one.

Eternal Chaos says:

"There only needs to be one way for him to win, but there's still the chance he can make a miscalculate. "

There’s about as much chance as that happening as Spider-Man’s powers failing all of a sudden. I’m honestly surprised that one of your arguments is that Midnighter’s powers will just stop working. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that in a battle thread.

Eternal Chaos says:

"I don't see Midnighter surviving an even half on hit or even a third on hit. This is one of those battles that it's too close to call. I'm sticking with the Arachnids though.."

I’ve given reasons why he could survive his hits, assuming Spider-Man can actually hit him (which I doubt would happen in the first place, if I haven’t made that clear yet).

If you were fighting someone a lot stronger and maybe a little faster than you but you knew everything they were going to do, even how they would dodge, almost like reading a script or even more intimately than that, and all you had to do to win was poke them, could you win?

I'm too tired to argue this right now. But here's my question. How the hell does anybody even stop this guy? If he's really everything you've cut him out to be, this really is an overpowered character. I have nothing further to say on the issue.

Wow, LoL. Lots of info there, Buck. ^^

Buckshot says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"Peter's tactics might be "old news" to Midnighter but that doesn't make them any less effective. "

If I know what you’re going to do before you do it and have a method to stop you before you can try, it does make your tactics less effective. I don’t know how you could think otherwise.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Midnighter may not need to be stronger than Spider-Man to stop him, but he needs to be fast enough to hit him properly. "

Midnighter’s fast enough. The man can play ping pong with bullets even before kicking it up to the (shady, I’ll admit) upper limits of his speed. And then you add in the fact that he knows where Pete will be at all times and he might as well be even faster. It’s not like he has to aim for Peter and hope he’s fast enough to connect, he just needs to aim for where Peter will be so when he gets there Pete’s basically running into his attacks.

Eternal Chaos says:

"And even at that, he may ignore his own pain as he's done so many times before. Don't forget, Peter has battled foes with only one arm, broken ribs, exhausted and barely able to breathe. He's even fought after being half dead (I.E. Morlun). "

Fighting through pain is not the same as fighting when your body simply won’t respond. A nerve strike (assuming it’s not a fatal one) would prevent Pete from fighting even if he wanted to. His fighting spirit doesn’t matter if his body doesn’t work.

Eternal Chaos says:

"Buck, you don't need to hit somebody with a solid 25 ton punch to hurt them. "

You’re taking my explanation of reasons a punch won’t kill Midnighter as an admission that he will be hit. I don’t think he will, I was pretty much just saying “what if?” But if (again, if) Pete hits him, why do you think Midnighter will go down? Spider-Man is very strong, but is he going to be swinging with anywhere close to his full power? When have you seen him fight human-looking enemies with his full strength? Never, because if he did, most of them would be dead. Midnighter looks like a normal guy. Scary, but normal. Spider-Man is not going to hit him with anything hard because his character dictates that he will not outright kill someone. He doesn’t know if Midnighter can take one of his real punches so he won’t hit him with one. If (again if) he tags Midnighter then sees that he’s fine, he’ll hit him harder next time. He won’t be hitting hard enough to actually hurt him for quite a while since he won’t be hitting him often. By the time he’s actually hurting Midnighter, his healing factor (he’s no Wolverine but he heals) will be fixing any damage he takes, his redundant systems will keep him going even if stuff gets broken and he won’t be slowed down by pain because he won’t feel it. And while Spider-Man is testing the waters with him, Midnighter will still be using killing strikes or just getting him deeper into a bad spot that he won’t be able to get out of. Spider-Man will be dead long before he realizes that he should be hitting Midnighter with the intent to kill or maim.

Eternal Chaos says:

"The super computer in Midnighter's head is powerful, I won't deny you that but it's bound to have one small miscalculation, there is no such thing as perfection in machines, we all know this. "

There is no such thing as a perfect machine in real life, you’re right. But this is fiction. Midnighter’s computer is perfect. It doesn’t miscalculate.

Eternal Chaos says:

"You don't see Spider-Man being this vicious but before One More Day, he WAS that vicious, he was running around killing anybody and everybody who defended Fisk. If Midnighter turns off his pain sensors, good for him, that doesn't mean the effects of the hits won't be noticed. True, if Peter does hit Midnighter, he's close enough to get hit himself, but it depends on the scale of the damage behind the hit. "

Who did Spider-Man kill? I don’t remember him killing “anybody and everybody”. Please show me. Doesn’t matter though, Midnighter and Deathstroke aren’t trying to kill Aunt May, which was the only reason he was as brutal as he was anyway (and he still didn’t kill anyone). Spider-Man rarely goes all out or anywhere near that when he fights. Midnighter and Deathstroke almost always go for the kill.

Eternal Chaos says:

"You can't say he won't see it coming, he's a smart guy. "

Midnighter and Deathstroke are both much smarter when it comes to combat. And, even if he saw it coming, Midnighter would still know how he’d act with the knowledge that it’s all a trap and would make another one.

Eternal Chaos says:

"There only needs to be one way for him to win, but there's still the chance he can make a miscalculate. "

There’s about as much chance as that happening as Spider-Man’s powers failing all of a sudden. I’m honestly surprised that one of your arguments is that Midnighter’s powers will just stop working. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that in a battle thread.

Eternal Chaos says:

"I don't see Midnighter surviving an even half on hit or even a third on hit. This is one of those battles that it's too close to call. I'm sticking with the Arachnids though.."

I’ve given reasons why he could survive his hits, assuming Spider-Man can actually hit him (which I doubt would happen in the first place, if I haven’t made that clear yet).

If you were fighting someone a lot stronger and maybe a little faster than you but you knew everything they were going to do, even how they would dodge, almost like reading a script or even more intimately than that, and all you had to do to win was poke them, could you win?

"

Damn Buck ell leave a person's sh!t in ruins. Nice post

Eternal Chaos says:

"I'm too tired to argue this right now. But here's my question. How the hell does anybody even stop this guy? If he's really everything you've cut him out to be, this really is an overpowered character. I have nothing further to say on the issue."

Overwhelming and unavoidable force works wonders. He was once taken down when the building he was in (and a few others around it) were all blown up at once. Telepathy is also good, it's worked twice that I can remember. The last time Jackson King (a telepath) just cut off the connection between the implants and his mind. He still beat some heroes up though because he's good without the implants, but if you can get into his mind in the first place he can be taken down. Super speed works too. There's other stuff, but massive damage, TP and crazy speed are what come to mind. I think I said it in another thread, Midnighter looks like a street level character but he's really not and that's why he can beat a ton of other characters that, at first glance, you'd think would beat him. That's what it is in my mind anyway.

I don't think you have to stop though. Creator and (I think) Forever also feel Spider-Man > Midnighter so there's a reason for it. Besides, Peter and Midnighter are not the only ones in the fight. Maybe Kaine can add something.

Buckshot says:

"Eternal Chaos says:

"I'm too tired to argue this right now. But here's my question. How the hell does anybody even stop this guy? If he's really everything you've cut him out to be, this really is an overpowered character. I have nothing further to say on the issue."

Overwhelming and unavoidable force works wonders. He was once taken down when the building he was in (and a few others around it) were all blown up at once. Telepathy is also good, it's worked twice that I can remember. The last time Jackson King (a telepath) just cut off the connection between the implants and his mind. He still beat some heroes up though because he's good without the implants, but if you can get into his mind in the first place he can be taken down. Super speed works too. There's other stuff, but massive damage, TP and crazy speed are what come to mind. I think I said it in another thread, Midnighter looks like a street level character but he's really not and that's why he can beat a ton of other characters that, at first glance, you'd think would beat him. That's what it is in my mind anyway. I don't think you have to stop though. Creator and (I think) Forever also feel Spider-Man > Midnighter so there's a reason for it. Besides, Peter and Midnighter are not the only ones in the fight. Maybe Kaine can add something."

I still say that's just a ridiculously powerful character. I still think Peter can actually pull through but I can't help really dislike that kind of power in somebody. I'll continue this tommorow like I said though. I'm too tired to continue debating.

@Colt: I don't blame you.

Okay, I have a question: how would midnighter's power work? From what I read, he has super senses that allow him to know what powers and abilities his opponent/s has/have and uses this information to calculate every conceivable outcome of a battle so he can choose the best one, is that right? If so, I don't see how this can be possible, in order for a computer to predict every possible outcome, it needs to know every SINGLE (wish I knew how to do bold) variable in the equation. That means that M's computer needs to not only know what his opponent/s is/are capable of but also WHAT they are going to do and how they are going to do it, not to mention millions of other, random variables like the wind and how it will change over the course of the fight, random bad drivers so that he doesn't get hit(if its near a road), what's the terrain like in places he can't see(i.e. behind buildings, over hills...) whether or not there will be any intervention from outside forces, that banana peel around the corner... I just don't see how Midnighter can do this and not make miscalculations without some form of cosmic awareness. His powers section didn't say exactly how his senses were advanced, just that an alien had to mask his form, scent, and DNA to trick him and that he can somehow find out what modifications or powers someone has, am I missing something? As for how this pertains to the battle; it could mean that M's power is not perfect and Spidey could, maybe, get lucky or run away from the battle (as he often does when he realizes that he's gonna lose if he keeps doing what he's doing, also, I'm assuming that M's calculations reset after a battle has ended) and later he could stealth attack M, negating his prediction powers. Only problem with this is that it will leave Kaine open for a double-team unless Pete can convince him to run away too.

Also, what, exactly, are Death-Stroke's powers? He has a whole 'lot of history but I couldn't find the powers section.
Post Edited:2008-01-15 22:59:20
Post Edited:2008-01-15 23:00:08

@ all that stuff about Midnighter's battle computer: Comics != Reality

If you want to start picking apart things that wouldn't/shouldn't work in real life, I've read quite a few posts and articles reducing Spider-Man to a quivering mass of bad science.

There has to be more to Spider-Man's defense than "Midnighter's powers won't work."

They did a special thing on Discovery about Spidey and his powers and from what I saw, Spidey's powers are very extremely improbable, but at least they made sense, M's power doesn't. But I see where you're coming from, if we went by logic in comics, Cyclops' head would have come off by now. Still, I'm not saying that M's powers won't work, but that it wouldn't work perfectly all the time, hell, if it worked perfectly then he wouldn't need all those redundant systems. Also, you didn't address all of my points, his power section says that his power goes over a given battle situation millions of times, what happens when the battle ends (by Spidey running away) and then Pete(or Kaine) stealth attacks M?

Also, does anyone know what DeathSroke's powers are?

http://www.comicvine.com/deathstroke/3588/

Just thought of three more scenarios:1 For some reason Pete and M get separated from Kaine and DS (it happens, particularly in Spidey battles), Pete starts losing to M but Kaine (who's finished with DS by now) gets a vision, or something, of his original getting owned so he goes over, finds M before M finds him and melts his face off. 2 Kaine knocks out M in the first second of the battle while he's busy processing. 3 M slips on a banana peel (Spidey-sense warned Pete)

Super-Buster says:

"They did a special thing on Discovery about Spidey and his powers and from what I saw, Spidey's powers are very extremely improbable, but at least they made sense, M's power doesn't. But I see where you're coming from, if we went by logic in comics, Cyclops' head would have come off by now. Still, I'm not saying that M's powers won't work, but that it wouldn't work perfectly all the time, hell, if it worked perfectly then he wouldn't need all those redundant systems. Also, you didn't address all of my points, his power section says that his power goes over a given battle situation millions of times, what happens when the battle ends (by Spidey running away) and then Pete(or Kaine) stealth attacks M?Also, does anyone know what DeathSroke's powers are?"

If the comics don't show Midnighter's implants making miscalculations there's no reason to believe they would. Why assume it wouldn't work as it's been shown to work hundreds of times in comics? If you look at how many times their powers fail though, Spider-Man is more likely to lose his powers or make mistakes with his spider sense than Midnighter is to misstep even once. He has redundant systems because sometimes he fights enemies where even on his best chance he would get hurt quite a bit, or he might need to sacrifice his body to get a kill. If Spider-Man leaves the fight, he's forfeiting. Even then, Midnighter's shown that he can accurately predict entire days with no more effort than a single fight. That includes multiple fights and things that happen when the fights are over. He once even knew what would be happening in space (while he was on Earth) when he finished a fight.

Deathstroke and Midnighter would win big

Super-Buster says:

"Just thought of three more scenarios:1 For some reason Pete and M get separated from Kaine and DS (it happens, particularly in Spidey battles), Pete starts losing to M but Kaine (who's finished with DS by now) gets a vision, or something, of his original getting owned so he goes over, finds M before M finds him and melts his face off. 2 Kaine knocks out M in the first second of the battle while he's busy processing. 3 M slips on a banana peel (Spidey-sense warned Pete)"

For the first, Midnighter know s how the entire battle will play out so if he sees the possibility of getting separated and that resulting in a a loss, he won't let it happen. Second, have you read comics with Midnighter in them? Third, same question.

Gambler says:

"http://www.comicvine.com/deathstroke/3588/"

Thanks, but that's what I'm talking about, all I got from that page is that he is genetically engineered, there was no power section.

Just because his prediction power has worked in comics (no matter how many times) does not mean its perfect, what makes you so sure he planned all of the hits he took? After each one did he think or say that he planned it? The way I see it, his prediction power is entirely reliant on his senses, he can't plan around something that he doesn't know about. So, it is entirely possible for something to escape his notice, and then come back to bite him in the end.

Admittedly, all I have to go on are encyclopedias, but I still think scenario 2 could play out. Didn't you say that its possible to defeat M through speed? Kaine isn't as fast as the flash, but if they start out close enough, its not impossible .

Super-Buster says:

"Just because his prediction power has worked in comics (no matter how many times) does not mean its perfect, what makes you so sure he planned all of the hits he took? After each one did he think or say that he planned it? The way I see it, his prediction power is entirely reliant on his senses, he can't plan around something that he doesn't know about. So, it is entirely possible for something to escape his notice, and then come back to bite him in the end."

Yes, he pretty much does say he's planned everything out from the beginning. If you're honestly going to base your argument on his powers failing to work as they are meant to and shown to, you'll need more than your own disbelief of their realism. You'll need some comic evidence that supports the idea that he makes miscalculations on a regular enough basis that it can be used for this fight. You won't find that. And about being caught off guard because he couldn't sense something, the only time I can recall that happening is when he was being attacked while in a Door, so unless Spider-Man or Kaine can access the Bleed, that method will not work.

Super-Buster says:

"Admittedly, all I have to go on are encyclopedias, but I still think scenario 2 could play out. Didn't you say that its possible to defeat M through speed? Kaine isn't as fast as the flash, but if they start out close enough, its not impossible ."

Kaine doesn't have enough speed to blitz Midnighter. If they're close enough for it to really be possible, Midnighter is even more likely to be the one to try it.

Super-Buster says:

"Gambler says:

"http://www.comicvine.com/deathstroke/3588/"

Thanks, but that's what I'm talking about, all I got from that page is that he is genetically engineered, there was no power section.

"

Look on the right side. There's a full list of powers.

This is an interesting debate. I want to address one thing that EC said that I didnt see mentioned when I scanned the other posts. Spider-Man and Kaine would fall for Stroke's and 'Nighters' plans. DS and Midnighter are tactical geniuses. Peter is quite smart himself but his intelligence lies in other fields and while he is very good tactically, it isn't anywhere near what it would need to be to counter anything DS and Midnighter put together. I guess Gambler did address this somewhat when he said the one group was playing checkers while the other was playing chess.

Gambler says:

"Super-Buster says:

"Gambler says:

"http://www.comicvine.com/deathstroke/3588/"

Thanks, but that's what I'm talking about, all I got from that page is that he is genetically engineered, there was no power section.

"

Look on the right side. There's a full list of powers."

Yea there's a list, a pretty vague list. It says he has super strength, well, so does the hulk and it lists M's battle computer as "Precognition". The reason I'm asking is because I need to know exactly how well he would perform against the spider people.

It is true that M and DS could probably outsmart the spiders, and I'll admit that this battle isn't looking too good for them, but Kaine could take out, at least DS before he forms any coherent plans. Its Midnighter I'm worried about.

Post Edited:2008-01-16 15:53:49

Gambler says:

"Outsmart Midnighter in terms of a fight? Its like you've ignored the fact that Midnighter has gone over **MILLIONS** of possibilities and scenarios.""

I wonder how many of those have him successfully hurting Kaine or Spidey.

Only takes one.

Hand To Hand Combat: This scan is meant to show Deathstroke's hand to hand ability, by taking down one of the DCU's best fighters.

Agility Here he preforms a series of acrobatic moves that leave Superman in amazement.

Here he demonstrates my earlier point about positioning his opponent where he wants them.

Methodical in his preparation, he's single handedly taken down the JLA (minus the big three)and the Teen Titans

Did I mention he's immortal? And just for fun, one last scan.

A Lot harder to save lives then take them.

Fighting another "immortal"

His webbing is no joke.

Cars are fun.

Slade is great... with prep time and when he's being underestimated.

Edit: blah, the rest aren't working, its late. gnight.
Post Edited:2008-01-16 17:16:08

I'm well aware of what Spider-Man is capable off. You asked specifically about Deathstroke, so I should very limited scans of what he can do. I'm not interested in getting into a scan off to determine the outcome of this battle.

Deathstroke is great without prep time. He's near unstoppable with it.

Deathstroke has saved lives (his daughter) as well as taken them. I find it funny that you posted a scan of Deadpool actually landing shots on Spider-Man. This to me throws thee entire, "Spiderman's spidersense keeps him from getting hit," argument right out the window. Deapool and Deathstroke are practically the same character, except Deathstroke is a tactical genius and Deadpool is a joker.

I still say Spidey and Kaine.

Legendary Bio Vishanti says:

"I still say Spidey and Kaine."

Thats all I needed to hear. You've changed my mind.