SWJS Cere Junda, OWK Obi-Wan, and Rebel Ahsoka Vs. Darth Sidious (Disney)

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shroudofsorrow

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Palpatine against the "Vader Busters"*. Can they defeat him?

As to which iteration of Palpatine it is, whichever version yields the best/closest fight.

*And yes, I know technically only one of them actually beat him, but the other two did better than most others have and gave him good fights, so they're here anyway.

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shroudofsorrow

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noah_ouellette

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Honestly. With the sheer force superiority Kenobi displayed over Vader, the team could probably overwhelm Sidious with the force. Kenobi could match Sidious in sabers alone being equal if not superior to windu. Team takes this

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SunshineDobbs

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I'd bet on the team against ROTS Sidious. Not sure about other versions.

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WarStars1977

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Cere lost Badly to Vader. She’s a non factor. Ahsoka couldn’t be Baylan. She’s a non factor. This turns into Obi vs Sidious. Sidious stomps.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@warstars1977: baylon has no scaling to sidious so he isn’t a deciding factor in whether or not ahsoka is a factor.

ahsoka fought vader in a pretty good fight. she shouldn’t be a non factor, but she isn’t going to be the deciding factor either

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Ieatnettles

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#7  Edited By Ieatnettles

Sidious stomps, however rots sidious gets stomped

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WarStars1977

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@emmafrostxmen: Baylan was part of the Jedi order during the prequel trilogy. If he was a prodigy or Anakin, Yoda level Force user, he would have come up. Yoda was the standard until Anakin arrived. Those were the top two. Those were the two that could challenge Sidious.

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Kaore

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RoTS Sidious wins 9/10, RoTJ 10/10.

This team isn't as good as the RoTS Strike team.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@warstars1977: he is a retcon/ addition to canon. that logic doesn’t work with something like that. he is obviously very old and wise and skilled. his only feat is defeating (circumstantial) then stalemating ahsoka in combat. overall he is around ahsoka level which means he can give vader a fight.

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Seemorebutts94

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#11  Edited By Seemorebutts94

This team should take it in a good fight.

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Aristeaus

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Cere lost Badly to Vader. She’s a non factor.

Wait? What... Did you not play the game or even watch the cutscenes?

Cere beat up on Vader. Had she not gone for the kill the way she did she would have won. Vader limped off afterwards. lol

At no point would anyone in their right minds say she lost "badly" to Vader.

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WarStars1977

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@warstars1977 said:

Cere lost Badly to Vader. She’s a non factor.

Wait? What... Did you not play the game or even watch the cutscenes?

Cere beat up on Vader. Had she not gone for the kill the way she did she would have won. Vader limped off afterwards. lol

At no point would anyone in their right minds say she lost "badly" to Vader.

Not my best claim. You’re right.

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gioppy37

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Every version of prequel trilogy sidious likely loses this. Kenobi alone would do very well against every version (except post order 66), adding the other 2 can definitely help him. ROTJ sidious wins cleanly tho. Probably even Rebels/ANH and ESB palpatine, but we don’t exactly now how powerful he got after ROTS and until ROTJ.

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shroudofsorrow

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@gioppy37: Sidious has feats in between 3 and 6, including scaling off of Vader, so I think we can gauge his power level.

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shroudofsorrow

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@Aristeaus: I would say more she held her own for a good while, managed to damage him, and ultimately lost. I didn’t interpret it as any kind of easy win on either side.

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shroudofsorrow

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@kaore said:

RoTS Sidious wins 9/10, RoTJ 10/10.

This team isn't as good as the RoTS Strike team.

What are you basing that on? Only because I can't recall Disney Agen and Saesee doing much of anything. Kit fought Grievous and did well, but Disney Grievous is a jobber. Mace's buddies seem way, way less impressive and noteworthy in Disney Canon than in Legends.

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Aristeaus

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@Aristeaus: I would say more she held her own for a good while, managed to damage him, and ultimately lost. I didn’t interpret it as any kind of easy win on either side.

I can get behind that. But, I was more talking about the wild claim that she lost badly to Vader... which is just patently not true ( and he recognized it, so all good ).

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StarKillerGoat

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From what I've seen Kenobi and anyone else are enough for ROTS. Not sure if they can do much against ROTJ though

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MaulSmacker

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@kaore said:.

This team isn't as good as the RoTS Strike team.

how is it not? Obi ragdolls Mace, Ahsoka ragdolls the other 4, frankly cere doesn't even need to do anything.

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MaulSmacker

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@warstars1977: he is a retcon/ addition to canon. that logic doesn’t work with something like that. he is obviously very old and wise and skilled. his only feat is defeating (circumstantial) then stalemating ahsoka in combat. overall he is around ahsoka level which means he can give vader a fight.

Rebels Vader, ANH and Beyond fingerflick.

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WarStars1977

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@emmafrostxmen said:

@warstars1977: he is a retcon/ addition to canon. that logic doesn’t work with something like that. he is obviously very old and wise and skilled. his only feat is defeating (circumstantial) then stalemating ahsoka in combat. overall he is around ahsoka level which means he can give vader a fight.

Rebels Vader, ANH and Beyond fingerflick.

But why? He was better than Ahsoka.

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Kaore

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@maulsmacker: Thinking Obi-Wan ragdolls Mace is genuinely insane, and so far removed from the source materials' portrayal of the characters. Same goes for Ahsoka ragdolling a Jedi Councillor.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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MaulSmacker

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@kaore: ...this version of Kenobi rendered Vader helpless, who is a hell lot better than Mace.

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WarStars1977

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gioppy37

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#27  Edited By gioppy37

@kaore: but that's basically what would likely happen. Mace has no real feats in canon tbh...his only one got debunked by many sources stating that Sidious held back, and even if he didn't, prime Mace would just scale to pre order 66 palps, who is < Mustafar Kenobi (let alone OWK Kenobi post pit, who was able to beat Vader pretty convincingly). Yeah maybe ragdoll isn't the exact word if we are considering pre pit kenobi, but post pit has a good chance after seeing what he did to Vader.

OWK Kenobi (post pit) > MFK ∼ OWK Kenobi (pre pit) > ROTS Windu

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StarKillerGoat

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@kaore said:

@maulsmacker: Thinking Obi-Wan ragdolls Mace is genuinely insane, and so far removed from the source materials' portrayal of the characters. Same goes for Ahsoka ragdolling a Jedi Councillor.

Where do you hold OWK Vader compared to Mace?

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Kaore

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@starkillergoat: Mace is a genuine peer of Yoda. Vader can compete but he's not on that level, especially during the time of OWK where his mentals aren't quite as solid as they are later on.

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Kaore

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#30  Edited By Kaore

@gioppy37: The "pre/post 66 Sidious" thing is basically headcanon. Sure, the dark side grew stronger across the course of RoTS but you can't quantify it to any major degree, people make out as if Sidious was pulling a Nihilus/Vitiate when that's just not the case.

Again, with "pre/post-pit". These aren't video game characters getting buffs at key plot points. Obi-Wan centered himself and focused on his mission, freeing himself of his doubt which led to his greater performance. He didn't get +5 Dexterity and +20 Force putting him ahead of Vader.

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WarStars1977

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@kaore said:

@gioppy37: The "pre/post 66 Sidious" thing is basically headcanon. Sure, the dark side grew stronger across the course of RoTS but you can't quantify it to any major degree, people make out as if Sidious was pulling a Nihilus/Vitiate when that's just not the case.

Again, with "pre/post-pit". These aren't video game characters getting buffs at key plot points. Obi-Wan centered himself and focused on his mission, freeing himself of his doubt which led to his greater performance. He didn't get +5 Dextery and +20 Force putting him ahead of Vader.

I can get behind this.

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MaulSmacker

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@kaore said:.

Again, with "pre/post-pit". These aren't video game characters getting buffs at key plot points. Obi-Wan centered himself and focused on his mission, freeing himself of his doubt which led to his greater performance. He didn't get +5 Dexterity and +20 Force putting him ahead of Vader.

I mean, you just said a whole lot of nothing with this.

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Kaore

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@maulsmacker: Respectfully so did you with that reply brother

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gioppy37

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@kaore: you have many sources stating that sidious grew considerably after order 66, you have scans to back it up so it’s definitely not head canon.

“Obi Wan centered himself and focused on his mission, freeing himself of his doubt led to his greater performance” -> I’d honestly call it amp lol

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Kaore

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#35  Edited By Kaore

@gioppy37: A better mindset =/= an amp, I don't think it was a temporary thing and I don't think the difference between "pre/post pit" is that substantial. I see people make out like they're tiers apart and to me nothing reflects that view.

As for Sidious' growth, I find it unconvincing to say it's anything beyond marginal. The primary source material, the movies, don't reflect it whatsoever and his general combat performance prior to O66 isn't substantially different to afterwards. All of the scans I've seen are fluff text for card games and such, which just don't matter as much as the primary material.

I'm gonna need to see a demonstrable difference between "pre/post O66 Sidious" if I'm to buy into the idea, and I just don't.

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MaulSmacker

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@kaore: Fair, can you explain to me how exactly sud and Kenobi go from being completely overpowered by Vader in a force clash to rendering Vader helpless, if his force power did not increase.

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NotTheGodMadara

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LMFAO Palpatine obliterates all of these dudes are weaker than pre prime vader

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Kaore

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@maulsmacker: Let's take a similar example.

In RoTS, Darth Sidious catches Yoda point-blank with Force Lightning and renders him absolutely helpless. Yoda isn't able to dodge it in time, is flung back and stunned for a significant amount of time. Once Yoda recovers, he's then able to launch Sidious across the office and likewise, Palpatine is helpless.

Do you think Yoda gained an amp inbetween the time he was hit with lightning and pushed Palpatine? Did his force power increase?

No, it's just that relative peers in the Force are able to tag eachother, this has been an established thing for a while. Obi-Wan and Vader are comparable; we see this on Mustafar and again in their rematch.

If anything, the Yoda & Sidious exchange is far more extreme than the one with Kenobi and Vader. With Vader's Forcequake, he had at least tripped up Obi-Wan up with some debris first, and Obi-Wan only landed his Force push due to outmanuevering Vader in the duel creating the opportunity to land it, and then landed all the rocks while Vader was stunned. Yoda and Sidious straight up stood there taking turns in comparison.

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MaulSmacker

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@kaore: That doesn't work as an analogy at all.

Yoda and Sidious were equal the moment the fight started, they were both even so they show Sidious hurting Yoda with lightning and then Yoda returns the gesture with a Full Power Force Push, neither Yoda nor Sidious were fully on guard or in combat mode when they landed the respective surge of force lightning or the force push on each other, but the exchange shows us they're equal and the actual fight that follows? yet again, equal with Sidious having a edge.

this was not the case with the OWK fight, Vader and Kenobi went into a force contest, and Vader overpowered the full force power of MFK/Pre Pit Kenobi while talking and taunting, without any insane effort and tossed away the boulder MFK was exerting all his strength on, what followed was force abuse giving Vader the win, Vader and Pre Pit Kenobi are notrelative in force, Vader is considerably and decisively superior there, they're only relative in sabers.

but after the pit? Kenobi overpowers Vader in the force, he manages to even match his one arm's physical strength at points, he destroys Vader in the force when earlier Vader and him were equal in the force, this is not a Sidious vs Yoda situation, it's more akin to Anakin vs Dooku on Invisible Hand, or Luke vs Vader on the Second Death Star, but the difference here is even worse than those two encounters.

Kenobi goes from being destroyed in the force and decisively beaten and literally buried alive, to being stronger in the force than the person who just displayed considerable force superiority to him five minutes ago, and destroys his equal in saber combat, it's a clear amplification.

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The_Nitro

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@warstars1977:

Cere tagged Vader 4 times , so she didn't lost as badly you think .

That upscales bayeln lol

The team is too strong here so ROTS Sidious losess