Supreme Leader Snoke and his Praetorian Guard vs Count Dooku

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#301 Edited by Erkan12 (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@anonymousjedi said:

@erkan12:I wasn't arguing that Dooku was Mace level - I was using that as an example for what you're doing (wanking mace). Windu is clearly ahead of Dooku, but he isn't a nine anymore.

Lol, then why did you mention about Mace for no reason on this thread? It's obvious that your intention was different than what you said. Windu is nine, you need to show me a reason why Gillard change his mind, if he says 9 then he says bordering to 9 then it means that's his opinion and it's open to discussion because he didn't say why he lowered Mace's tier.

Lucas said Windu is on the same level with Yoda. That's a better reference than Gillard anyway.

@anonymousjedi said:

Umm... no. Just because he can 'compete' with the Emperor, doesn't automatically grade him to their level. Mace is an 8/9 - you may not like it, but that's the reality.

How can a tier 8 (according to you) can compete with tier 9? Yoda specifically said Kenobi couldn't compete with the Emperor because Kenobi was tier 8. According to you again, Mace is tier 8, so he shouldn't compete with the Emperor, right?

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#302 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin:

They didn't lose convincingly. Towards the end of the fight they were winning. Rey only managed to kill her guard due to a stroke of luck and Kylo, who was nearly strangled by his, required the help of Rey to break free.

Also, Rey's skills clearly improved throughout her time on Ahch-To, meaning it's a bit illogical to assume that Luke didn't train her at all. Not to mention, she's got insane raw strength- above even that of Palpatine's, according to Luke- and people with insane potential grow very quickly (i.e. Luke).

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#303 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

Lol, then why did you mention about Mace for no reason on this thread? It's obvious that your intention was different than what you said.

Mace is an 8, bordering to nine. 'No tier 8 could' deal with Joke and the guards simultaneously, according to yourself. As you never seem to admit when Mace loses, I wanted to see what your response was.

Windu is nine, you need to show me a reason why Gillard change his mind, if he says 9 then he says bordering to 9 then it means that's his opinion and it's open to discussion because he didn't say why he lowered Mace's tier.

Nonsense - he lowered the ranking as that's where he is meant to be. If he was meant to be a 9, Gillard would have left him there, lol.

Lucas said Windu is on the same level with Yoda. That's a better reference than Gillard anyway.

Mace is stil an 8/9, no matter how high you try to wank him.

How can a tier 8 (according to you) can compete with tier 9?

I really didn't think I had to type out '8 bordering to 9' for you to understand - Mace is literally the pinnacle of tier 8, so it makes perfect sense for him to be able to compete with tier 9s; Sidious, Yoda or Anakin.

Yoda specifically said Kenobi couldn't compete with the Emperor because Kenobi was tier 8.

This wasn't Yoda's reasoning, though it makes sense.

According to you again, Mace is tier 8, so he shouldn't compete with the Emperor, right?

No - he's an 8 bordering to 9 - according to the facts, as well as myself. Mace can compete with the Emperor, but he isn't a 9 anymore.

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#304 Posted by HitTheAssasin (8758 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123:

They didn't lose convincingly. Towards the end of the fight they were winning. Rey only managed to kill her guard due to a stroke of luck and Kylo, who was nearly strangled by his, required the help of Rey to break free.

I said they were beat convincingly by both Kylo and Rey in 1V1 scenario's, which is true, except for the one guard that was beating Rey at the end, which can be attributed to fatigue and the fact that he had time to analyse her fighting style. Rey defeated 2 of them fighting her at the same time with difficulty. Same goes for Kylo, who was winning with difficulty in 2V1 scenario's and low-diffing(almost fodderizing) in 1V1 cases.

Also, Rey's skills clearly improved throughout her time on Ahch-To, meaning it's a bit illogical to assume that Luke didn't train her at all.

Well, considering the only lightsaber training sequence we got was her hitting a rock a few times and the fact that the training that was shown concentrated exclusively on the force,another conclusion would be that her improvement in force strength/skills increased her lightsaber skills as a side-effect.

Not to mention, she's got insane raw strength- above even that of Palpatine's, according to Luke- and people with insane potential grow very quickly (i.e. Luke).

Eh, scaling potential and speed of growth is a very unreliable and inconsistent thing to do. As an example, Luke grew extremely quickly in ESB, but Anakin, someone with even more potential than Luke(at least equal) took years to reach a similar level. Also, quote for Rey having raw strength superior to Palpatine's? I don't remember that.

Regardless, even if we humour the fact that Rey improved by an unquantifiable amount since TFA, so what? She didn't have any impressive 'saber feats in either film(except fighting Praetorians, who's only feat is fighting Rey, which is circular and thus inconclusive). Praetorians simply don't have the feats to suggest Dooku(or another Tier 8 of similar prowess) couldn't just mow through them. You can't even use the argument that there's lots of them, since more than 3 of them attacking at the same time would simply result in them getting in each others way(something Dooku, incidentally, is a master of engineering).

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#305 Edited by RGR (421 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin said:

Why are Praetorians rated so highly? They lost to untrained Rey and Kylo convincingly in 1V1 settings, someone like Grievous could solo the lot of them.

Rey's skill with her quarterstaff is said to translate well into lightsaber fighting by two different sources. Thanks to the TLJ Novelization, we also know she accessed some of Kylo's training when she probed his mind during the interrogation scene in TFA. So she isn't completely untrained. Now remember her potential and the fact that Luke only needed some minutes of training aboard the Millenium Falcon to be able to deflect shots while blindfolded,

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#306 Edited by Erkan12 (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@anonymousjedi said:

@erkan12:

Lol, then why did you mention about Mace for no reason on this thread? It's obvious that your intention was different than what you said.

Mace is an 8, bordering to nine. 'No tier 8 could' deal with Joke and the guards simultaneously, according to yourself. As you never seem to admit when Mace loses, I wanted to see what your response was.

I say you're bullshitting.

@anonymousjedi said:

Windu is nine, you need to show me a reason why Gillard change his mind, if he says 9 then he says bordering to 9 then it means that's his opinion and it's open to discussion because he didn't say why he lowered Mace's tier.

Nonsense - he lowered the ranking as that's where he is meant to be. If he was meant to be a 9, Gillard would have left him there, lol.

So he wasn't meant to be a 9 in the past because? What's changed? I want to see and hear his reasonings. That's not an explanation at all, you can see him as a 9 or you can see him as bordering to tier 9. It's open to interprepation, he didn't say he did make a mistake by calling him 9 before. And he didn't give us any reason why he changed his mind too, so it's a fair game.

@anonymousjedi said:

Lucas said Windu is on the same level with Yoda. That's a better reference than Gillard anyway.

Mace is stil an 8/9, no matter how high you try to wank him.

According to you he is.

Gillard wasn't wanking Mace Windu when he said he is a tier 9 you troll, or Lucas wasn't wanking Mace Windu when he put him in a same tier with Yoda.

Lmao, stop trolling already.

@anonymousjedi said:

How can a tier 8 (according to you) can compete with tier 9?

I really didn't think I had to type out '8 bordering to 9' for you to understand - Mace is literally the pinnacle of tier 8, so it makes perfect sense for him to be able to compete with tier 9s; Sidious, Yoda or Anakin.

I say you're still bullshitting,

@anonymousjedi said:

Yoda specifically said Kenobi couldn't compete with the Emperor because Kenobi was tier 8.

This wasn't Yoda's reasoning, though it makes sense.

Of course it does, because that's why Kenobi couldn't fight with the Emperor while Mace could.

@anonymousjedi said:

According to you again, Mace is tier 8, so he shouldn't compete with the Emperor, right?

No - he's an 8 bordering to 9 - according to the facts, as well as myself. Mace can compete with the Emperor, but he isn't a 9 anymore.

Mind blowing logic, congratulations.

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#307 Edited by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

@anonymousjedi said:

@erkan12:

Lol, then why did you mention about Mace for no reason on this thread? It's obvious that your intention was different than what you said.

Mace is an 8, bordering to nine. 'No tier 8 could' deal with Joke and the guards simultaneously, according to yourself. As you never seem to admit when Mace loses, I wanted to see what your response was.

I say you're bullshitting.

I have been involved in many discussions regarding Mace, and every time have claimed him to be 8/9 - why do you think this has changed?

So he wasn't meant to be a 9 in the past because? What's changed?

... His ranking.

I want to see and hear his reasonings. That's not an explanation at all, you can see him as a 9 or you can see him as bordering to tier 9.

I want to hear reasoning as to why the 'absolutely everything you need to know' book has Maul > Dooku - you completely disregard it, because it has your character (maul) ranked higher than another (Dooku). You pick-and-choose depending on the character and their ranking.

It's open to interprepation, he didn't say he did make a mistake by calling him 9 before. And he didn't give us any reason why he changed his mind too, so it's a fair game.

Pure wank - you cannot accept the truth: where Mace has been most recently ranked.

According to you he is.

Gillard wasn't wanking Mace Windu when he said he is a tier 9 you troll, or Lucas wasn't wanking Mace Windu when he put him in a same tier with Yoda.

Lmao, stop trolling already.

Lmfao - you are the one who's trolling; ignoring official ranking tiers, and instead deciding to use the old, outdated ranking because it supports your character better than the current one. If you don't like it, go complain to Gillard; as it stands, Mace is an 8 bordering on 9. Quit this stuff about Mace being in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious - he was once, but not anymore.

I say you're still bullshitting,

And you're wanking Mace.

Of course it does, because that's why Kenobi couldn't fight with the Emperor while Mace could.

But Yoda's reasoning for saying Kenobi couldn't match the emperor wasn't due to the tiering system, Lmfao

Mind blowing logic, congratulations.

It's not 'mind-blowing' - it's a simple fact that you're ignoring, in order to make Mace seem better than he is.

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#308 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2537 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

Vader was completely fine after the blast, which was coming from the Emperor, who is far more powerful than Dooku.

Obviously it's far more powerful. But I doubt Sheev would've used his full power against Vader at that time.

The discussion was about Nightbrothers and Praetorian Guards, even then we know Nightbrothers have a high endurance, they are still vulnerable to blaster shots and lightsaber, Praetorian guards have an armor that can resist to those kind of attacks, I think they should be more durable against Force lightning, plus they are more skilled than Nightbrothers.

The point was that Force Lightning can gets past armor tough enough get tank blaster bolts and glance off lightsaber blows which we have seen happen. Even in that image you posted, you can see that Lightning still manages to put Vader on his knees and in RotJ you can literally see it go through his armor and we know as per Return of the Jedi: Beware the Power of the Dark Side! that Sidious wasn't even using it at full power.

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#309 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2537 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer:Well SW.com names him as one of the most powerful combatants in canon. I'm not really fond of the ST or canon but given that Kylo is of the Skywalker bloodline, he likely has the same 00ber potential of his predecessor and he's had nearly a lifetime of training and practice I'd say he should be pretty powerful. The only reason he's ever lost was due to PIS.

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#310 Edited by Wolfrazer (16566 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Right, but the problem is....ok he's one of the most powerful combatants. But this is kind of hard to show given where he is in the timeline. There isn't any peer opponents for him to fight, other than Rey...but then this just means that they only go off eachother which if she goes off of him, then how does this help?

There doesn't seem to be any other trained Force Users in this timeline either and if by some chance, he does come across a highly trained Non-Force User...well why is this suddenly something that no other Force User can do? What because of his high potential? So potential is the end all be all now?

If someone has high potential and they fight a Non-Force User who is skilled, this means that lesser Force Users can't because their potential isn't as high? That's what I've been kinda getting throughout these kinds of threads frankly.

Also he's one of the most powerful. Well ok....where in the list does he rank? One of the most powerful out of how many?

Is he Top 5? Top 10? Top 20?

One of the most powerful, this could mean anything and he could be in the Top whatever and still be one of the most powerful.

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#311 Posted by AnakinVader99 (38 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Sorry accidentally pressed flag instead of reply

1. That's weird then why isn't there an official novel?

2. Ahsoka is pretty much stated to be on Vader's level and just made slide back nothing to serious like sending him flying and continue tumbling through sand,Dave Filoni has said that the only reason the rebels are alive is through pis and proceeded to describe them as a level 5 or 10 while Vader was 50 or 80,also Sidious and Yoda are pretty equal not to mention that Sidious also seemed fearful of Yoda remember? And Dooku tanked Anakin's force push easily and was not sent flying compared to this

https://gfycat.com/HopefulAnotherArrowana

It's pretty clear that the gap between Dooku and Anakin is pretty large. There is a difference between being sent flying yet still being equal to someone when more prepared to being outright getting humiliated in the force. Also her defences are notable how? Last I checked she could have easily have the same defence she had against Kylo in The Force Awakens there is nothing suggesting improvement in defences a week does not make her outright above Jedi masters' who Dooku has broken through

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5443055-1731059000-54263.jpg

https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5443057-4615613482-54263.jpg

Before you say she was fodder keep in mind she was surviving the Clone Wars for 2 years and is a Jedi master at the height of their power so she is obviously a cut above normal Jedi knights and some masters if she survived that long

Let's not forget that Rey has a lot of raw power that is not trained and her feat with the boulder could be her tapping into her potential something that happens a lot in Star Wars and that her defences haven't shown anything anywhere close to good in fact if we just see the movies her force defences are at bellow average (sent flying by a wounded Kylo Ren when Maul who is at least comparable to a wounded Kylo couldn't send Obi-wan flying more than 5 feet and ragged dolled by Snoke) so we got nothing to reference her defences besides they are there

3.Ok i thought it was Canon since their is nothing contradicting it still Obi-wan has tanked a lot worse then in the second gif and was still capable of throwing debree around without much difficulty

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#312 Posted by AnakinVader99 (38 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: ESB Luke is getting fodderized by Anakin that's not even a fair comparison but I agree with the rest not to mention that Rey's growth shouldn't put her Jedi master level in defences and power there is nothing suggesting it

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#313 Edited by AnakinVader99 (38 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Yeah he could be in the top 10 to top 50 obviously if you are above several thousand Jedi your top tier