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#151 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1161 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku. Much better feats.

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#152 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone who says Dooku stands the slightest chance is delusional.

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#153 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat:

Clone wars is canon, dooku has the monolyth scene that is comparable and was performed very casually.

Those boulders were far larger and greater in number compared to the obelisks that Dooku lifted. She was lifting and manipulating them with a casual gesture.

Moreover he has radgolled strong force users such has Obi wan

Due to speed and and via exploiting an opening, not a vast different in power. He can't just send Kenobi flying with a mere wave of his hand without Kenobi being vulnerable.

quilan vos

And what TK feats does canon Vos have that matches Rey's boulder feat?

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#154 Edited by Hypoallergenic (162 posts) - - Show Bio

I could believe Snoke could beat Dooku with the force alone if that was the question. We saw Kylo ren do some crazy stuff with the force we'd never seen before like effortlessly stopping blaster bolts for extended time in midair, and if he and Rey are truly around the same strength then Snoke completely overpowering her is extremely impressive to me. The praetorian guards also seemed really skilled compared to just about anybody without force sensitivity we've seen save the likes of mr iron lung-saber stealer. However, if this came down to a physical fight of any kind I'm 100% convinced Dooku would crush all of them. He might have some trouble with the guards but he'd beat them eventually and Snoke literally has no physical feats.

So if its a good enough answer: Phys only Dooku 9+/10. Force or both Snoke 10/10 imo.

Edit: I have not finished clone wars, and have no knowledge of legends.

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#155 Posted by Pierpat (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat:

Clone wars is canon, dooku has the monolyth scene that is comparable and was performed very casually.

Those boulders were far larger and greater in number compared to the obelisks that Dooku lifted. She was lifting and manipulating them with a casual gesture.

Moreover he has radgolled strong force users such has Obi wan

Due to speed and and via exploiting an opening, not a vast different in power. He can't just send Kenobi flying with a mere wave of his hand without Kenobi being vulnerable.

quilan vos

And what TK feats does canon Vos have that matches Rey's boulder feat?

Loading Video...

Casual?
rei is seen concentrating, panting and sweating. There's nothing casual about that feat. She's not even moving her hand, she has a totally contracted pose that showcases excerting effort.

the obelysks don't seem smaller tbh:

Loading Video...

The largest boulders are not as tall as finn, the big monolyths here are taller than dooku and savage.

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#156 Posted by AnakinVader99 (38 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Rey has no force shield if I remember correctly not to mention that Rey's tk potency doesn't equal defence potency if that were true then every Jedi and Sith have that

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#157 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

This is just Supreme Leader Joke vs Dooku - the guards are useless

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#158 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11771 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku 6/10

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#159 Posted by Jirou (531 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku kills the guards with his eyes closed. Snoke could be a problem with the guards piling him at one time.

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#160 Edited by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Good god, I've rarely seen such rabid lowballing.

Dooku gets stomped.

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#161 Posted by RGR (420 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123 said:

Good god, I've rarely seen such delusion.

Dooku gets stomped.

Indeed.

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#162 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

If this was Legends Dooku, people would kind of have a point- Canon Dooku gets trounced by Snoke alone, and when you include some "fodder" that really aren't fodder and can briefly distract the Count, I doubt he lasts much more than ten seconds.

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#163 Posted by Grinningf0x (1483 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: agreed snoke fondles

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#164 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat:

Casual?

rei is seen concentrating, panting and sweating. There's nothing casual about that feat. She's not even moving her hand, she has a totally contracted pose that showcases excerting effort.

She's still doing it with but a simple gesture.

the obelysks don't seem smaller tbh:

There were more boulders.

I'm still waiting for this:

And what TK feats does canon Vos have that matches Rey's boulder feat?

Obviously, Dooku would tool Rey in a fight. But in terms of raw power and TK, Rey isn't that far off and Snoke was tossing her around just by merely lifting a finger.

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#165 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakinvader99:Rey has no force shield if I remember correctly

The TLJ novel literally states Snoke ripped right through it:

No Caption Provided

Rey's tk potency doesn't equal defence potency

Citation needed.

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#166 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16802 posts) - - Show Bio

You see, I agree Snoke and his guards can win, but most of the arguments here for that are "Dooku is old". And the pro-Dooku arguments hinge on lowballing the ST. So really, both sides are pretty bad.

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#167 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

If this was Legends Dooku, people would kind of have a point- Canon Dooku gets trounced by Snoke alone, and when you include some "fodder" that really aren't fodder and can briefly distract the Count, I doubt he lasts much more than ten seconds.

The guards are fodder, Lmao

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#168 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Where do you rank Snoke in comparison to PT/OT characters?

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#169 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16802 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Canon only? I'd wager his Force Powers are top tier. I don't think anyone who isn't above Vader could legitimately dominate Kylo and Rey, or easily perform a feat that would've otherwise killed Ren or Rey.

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#170 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio
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#171 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16802 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Approaching, sure. I'd say Yoda and Sidious are very much above him.

Maybe Windu is depending on how you view he stacks up against them(I view he's more akin to Tyranus or Vader in that he can compete, but ultimately is below them by quite a bit).

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#172 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@anonymousjedi:

Individually, sure, but if they all attack Dooku collectively, Dooku fodderizing all of them at once is silly. And Snoke only needs a few seconds to take Dooku out. Anyway, you can remove the guards and Dooku will still die. He just has no chance of winning this fight.

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#173 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: How many are there? 6? Even that number fails to bring anything close to a challenge - though I agree, Joke can beat Dooku quickly with the force. The guards, however, do nothing here, as Joke likely wins on his own, too.

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#174 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@anonymousjedi:

Eight- and while they might not "challenge" Cunt Dooku, they can certainly occupy him for the three/four seconds needed for Snoke to raze him to oblivion.

And yes, Dookie gets creamed by Snoke on his own. His chances of winning here are non-existent.

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#175 Edited by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123 said:

@anonymousjedi:

Eight- and while they might not "challenge" Cunt Dooku, they can certainly occupy him for the three/four seconds needed for Snoke to raze him to oblivion.

And yes, Dookie gets creamed by Snoke on his own. His chances of winning here are non-existent.

0.0

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#176 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@anonymousjedi:

Just a little play on words :)

However, if you were far too offended by the little jab at your idol, I can remove it of course.

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#177 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Oh, I see - I thought it was a typo

Doesn't bother me, despite my urge to defend the old man.

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#178 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

What if Dooku uses his lightsaber skill

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#179 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

What a strange question to ask.

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#180 Edited by RGR (420 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not even sure the guards wouldn't be a challenge. Lightsabers can get stuck to their weapons, and their armor is said to deflect glancing slashes, which Dooku seems to favor. Rey and Kylo Ren were back-to-back and only had to fight those in front of each other. While Dooku is more skilled, he would also have to watch his back. I don't know if they have any defense against Force powers though, but I'd definitely not call the guards "fodder", given that we've seen Obi-Wan and Anakin being captured by some Zygerrian slavers, and I bet the guards are more skilled.

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#181 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

What if Dooku uses his lightsaber skill

What if Kas'im shows up and decides to kill everyone

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#182 Posted by Thoromdil (1840 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's see what Snoke can do:

- He can use force lightning. We never saw to what extent though, he once surprised undefending Kylo with it but didnt even hurt him. Without any feats we cant assume he can overpower Dooku with it, who can deflect lightning attacks with his own lightning (see his fight vs Yoda) and who actually has a lot of good feats using lightnig in the first place.

- Snoke can use telekinesis. He only ever ragdolled two people with it though, one was Hux who is not force sensitive, and Rey who is a self taught greenhorn in using the force. Are these feats enough to overpower Dooku, who has a lot better feats in telekinesis on his own? No.

Snoke can send his pretorian guards at Dooku. These guys are the very definition of fodder. They had like 5 vs 1 number advantage and couldnt even beat Rey of all people, who had literal ONE 60 second long lesson in saber combat, WITHOUT AN INSTRUCTOR. Will this be enough to challenge Dooku, who is known to be one of the best swordsmen in history of star wars, capable of challenging the best of the best like Yoda? No. Never.

...and that's it. Done. These are the only 3 actions Snoke can take against Dooku based on his combat feats. In all 3, Dooku comes on top by a rather huge margin. And I didnt even mention Dooku's own feats and abilities he can use against Snoke, which are plenty.

I cant see an argument being made for Snoke at all. Hype alone can not replace feats. Dooku wins this 10/10.

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#183 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: You know what happens if Kas’im comes... stop asking the unnecessary!

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#184 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil:

Let's see what Snoke can do:

So, just listing his powers and ignoring all his feats? Oh well, we're off to a great start.

He can use force lightning. We never saw to what extent though, he once surprised undefending Kylo with it but didnt even hurt him.

Kylo wasn't undefending nor was he caught off guard- he got up to attack Snoke after the latter berated him for his failure, but got slapped aside by Snoke's infinitely superior power.

Snoke can use telekinesis. He only ever ragdolled two people with it though, one was Hux who is not force sensitive, and Rey who is a self taught greenhorn in using the force.

A "self taught greenhorn" who lifted boulders large enough to cover a cave entrance with a casual display of power and had raw strength that eclipsed that of Palpatine's. And no, she wasn't only self taught, she obviously learned some things under Luke off-screen; different scenes on Ahch-To make a certain passage of time clear. It's illogical to assume that she got no training at all, but rather got a little bit of training under Luke off-screen. Much like Luke's training with Yoda- sure, we saw more of it, but what we saw wasn't enough to justify him not being one-shotted by Vader.

Are these feats enough to overpower Dooku, who has a lot better feats in telekinesis on his own?

Rey's boulder feat- which some like to lowball by saying the rocks were no bigger than human torsos, ignoring that the rocks came in different sizes and that some were much bigger than a human- is comparable to or at least not far off to what Dooku has in Disney Canon, and yet Snoke was ludicrously more powerful than her to the point where he could one-shot her while in a playful mood. Not seeing Dooku's far better telekinesis- sure, he has more material to draw from than Snoke, but that doesn't make him more powerful.

Snoke can send his pretorian guards at Dooku. These guys are the very definition of fodder.

"Fodder" that were highly trained in Echani battle arts as well as Teras Kasi that were assigned to protect Supreme Leader Snoke, someone who is noted to possess "limitless" resources- if they were scrubs, Snoke wouldn't use them to protect himself against his enemies.

They had like 5 vs 1 number advantage and couldnt even beat Rey of all people, who had literal ONE 60 second long lesson in saber combat, WITHOUT AN INSTRUCTOR.

4 vs 1, and Kylo clearly carried that fight. Rey struggled immensely against the guards. As for your ramblings of her having one 60 second long lesson in combat, they're laughably misinformed. First off, Luke accepted to train Rey, and she spent multiple days on Ahch To- what did she do during that time? Stare at the night sky? Walk around? Her skills were also far more refined than they were in TFA- Force power is one thing, but you can't just improve that much in skill without a bit of training at least. So Rey trained with the saber not only there, and even there Luke was watching her. So no, the Praetorians nearly defeating Rey and Kylo- the latter needing Rey to avoid death and the former only surviving due to sheer dumb luck- is not a bad feat in the slightest.

Will this be enough to challenge Dooku, who is known to be one of the best swordsmen in history of star wars, capable of challenging the best of the best like Yoda?

He barely challenged a holding back Yoda. He's a full tier below Yoda, meaning he's a "huge jump" away from the little green master.

...and that's it. Done. These are the only 3 actions Snoke can take against Dooku based on his combat feats.

All you did was list Snoke's capabilities, one or two of his feats while lowballing them to hell, and randomly say Dooku could beat him. Now let's educate you, shall we?

First off, Snoke's implied to be extremely powerful:

A master of the Force and a seeker of arcane lore, Snoke seduced young Ben Solo when the Force-sensitive boy desperately needed a teacher.

Star Wars Databank

Snoke is bloody dark; way darker than Palpatine...

He is the dark end of the Force.

[Snoke is] definitely not a Sith, but he’s certainly at the darker end of the Force.

Andy Serkis

In Canon, you'll be hard pressed to find accolades that match these.

Second, while Snoke doesn't have many combative feats, what he did to Rey- whose big TK feat isn't that far off from Dooku's best- should be beyond Dooku's capability. Note, I never said Dooku couldn't beat her, I'm just questioning the notion of him being able to one-shot her.

Snoke's TP bond feat is also one the most impressive in Canon as a whole, and it certainly outstrips anything Dooku has done. Let's see just how impressive this feat is.

Kylo and Rey were in opposite ends of the galaxy- light-years away from each other- and Snoke still managed to connect them, which is even more impressive seeing as how he was completely unaware of Rey's location at the time. Kylo also noted that the effort of maintaning the bond and speaking to Kylo would kill Rey, but they did it without any problem due to Snoke's powers. This is already extremely impressive, but we're just scraping the surface here.

Kylo and Rey could see each other pretty vividly, to the point where they touched hands. And this bit is what truly make Snoke's feat a gargantuan achievement- just by touching each other's hands, something very special happened between Ben and Rey- some of Solo's powers were transferred to Rey, hence why she was roughly as powerful as him despite her inferior training. Rey also claimed that in this moment she peered into Kylo's future, and saw that he would turn back, which remains to be seen. So far, we know that Snoke connected two people across the galaxy despite not knowing the location of one of them, maintained the bond with no effort despite Kylo nothing that in a normal situation Rey would die trying to maintain it, and the bond between them was so close that just by "touching" hands some of Ben's powers were transferred to Rey, who could allegedly see Solo's future.

And then, to put the icing on the cake, the bond was clearly there at the end of the movie, where Snoke was seemingly dead. So the bond was so strong that it lived on even after Snoke, the being who created it, had perished. No, this feat isn't combative, but it does speak a lot about Snoke's power, and it surpasses anything Dooku has done anyway.

In Canon, Snoke alone is demonstrably more powerful than Dooku, and can beat him with his Force power- and no, there's no proof someone as powerful as Snoke can be saberblizted, even by the likes of Dooku. So now that we've established Snoke can overpower Dooku on his own, what do you think will happen by adding distractions? Simple. Dooku dies.

In all 3, Dooku comes on top by a rather huge margin.

The only thing Dooku comes on top by a rather huge margin is sabers, and for Dooku to close the gap in time his powers would have to at least rival Snoke's- they don't. Dooku gets blown away.

And I didnt even mention Dooku's own feats and abilities he can use against Snoke, which are plenty.

Well, maybe you should, just so Dooku can have even a slight chance of winning this fight.

I cant see an argument being made for Snoke at all.

If that is so, then why did you fail miserably in making an argument against Snoke?

Hype alone can not replace feats.

Quality beats quantity. Just because Dooku has more material to draw from doesn't mean he is more powerful. And as I have proven, he isn't.

Dooku wins this 10/10.

No Caption Provided

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#185 Posted by RGR (420 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123 said:

First off, Luke accepted to train Rey, and she spent multiple days on Ahch To- what did she do during that time? Stare at the night sky? Walk around? Her skills were also far more refined than they were in TFA- Force power is one thing, but you can't just improve that much in skill without a bit of training at least. So Rey trained with the saber not only there, and even there Luke was watching her. So no, the Praetorians nearly defeating Rey and Kylo- the latter needing Rey to avoid death and the former only surviving due to sheer dumb luck- is not a bad feat in the slightest.

True, and TLJ novelization also explains in a flashback that, during Rey's interrogation in TFA, "somehow, almost instinctually, she knew how he accessed some of the powers at his command -even though she didn’t understand them. It was as if his training had become hers, unlocking and flinging open door after door in her mind".

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#186 Edited by HitTheAssasin (8228 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku stomps, assuming we're using legends.

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#187 Edited by Wolfrazer (16282 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: It’s clearly Canon given the OP has Canon only characters involved and material being discussed.

That said I might see this being interesting enough.

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#188 Posted by HitTheAssasin (8228 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: It's not specified at all and while, according to the forum rules, we'd use Canon, 99% if the time people use Legends. The new Canon is a mess I'm really not willing to get into, so I can't comment on it.

I will use this thread to laugh at Alpha for claiming Kylo could be a low 8 though.

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#189 Posted by Wolfrazer (16282 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: Well the thread seems to imply Canon only since Snoke and co are only in Canon. Plus as you said forum rules.

It has some problems, but then what fictional universe doesn’t?

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#190 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio
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#191 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku gets overwhelmed.

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#192 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: Legends is more of a mess than canon. And what is really even a mess in canon?

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#193 Edited by AnakinVader99 (38 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Ok that makes no sense where the hell did she learn a force shield? Also her feats have been surpassed by Anakin and Obi-wan both who have been rag dolled and has had there force defences by Dooku

https://m.imgur.com/yvoCrQQ

Here they pull back a pretty large air ship that was crashing the opposite direction while Anakin was 13 to put it in numbers an air balloon less than 1/10 of this size is around 2 and 1/2 so multiply that by 10 and they pulled it towards them so they had to pull a ship falling from normal gravity that weighed around 25 tons while it was moving in the opposite direction it's safe to say that this feat is close to Rey's ignoring the fact that this had a meetal "basket" and other things in it

https://gfycat.com/FluffyFilthyBarbet

And Anain did this

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111226069/4793755-4094389709-45269.gif

And did this it's safe to say that Rey's feat is not that insane

And Bariss has broken Anakin's defenses and so has Ventress both who are weaker than Anakin by quite a noticeable margin,Ventress force choked Anakin and Obi-wan while raging,Savage has done it as well and so have others all whom are weaker and lack feats to match Anakin or Obi-wan

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#194 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakinvader99: Anakin and Obi-wan both who have been rag dolled and has had there force defences by Dooku

That was only after Anakin was caught off-guard and hit by lightning. If Dooku was so vastly above Anakin he would've just straight up ragdolled him instead of dueling him. As for Kenobi, Dooku didn't really break through Kenobi's defense since Kenobi failed to up a defense to begin with. It's stated that Kenobi is powerful enough to have countered Dooku but just wasn't fast enough. That happened because Dooku was too fast, not because of raw strength or overwhelming force.

No Caption Provided

I don't see how that GIF is relevant since Dooku never ragdolled TCW Anakin.

And Bariss has broken Anakin's defenses

Unless she's choked or ragdolled him I don't see how this is relevant.

so has Ventress

Ventress force choked Anakin and Obi-wan while raging

,Savage has done it as well

While they were rage-amped. Neither of them have replicated those feats or done anything remotely as impressive outside of said amp.

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#195 Edited by AnakinVader99 (38 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: That's not what the official novel says

Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back—and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.

He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own—and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Credit to ShootingNova

Obi-wan was struggling and unable to break free considering Dooku was multi tasking as he held Obi-wan at bay

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3937589-a1tjd.gif

Credit to ShootingNova

Here Dooku force pushes Anakin

I don't remember a rage amp powerful enough to rag doll two beings stronger than you

Also Maul has rag dolled Obi-wan casually as well and he doesn't have feats to surpass Obi-wan

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/6110516-fdgdfgdfg.gif

Credit to Erkan12

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#196 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke stomps.

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#197 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin has never been ragdolled by Dooku. In fact, he even pushed him in the RotS comic.

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#198 Posted by AotD (627 posts) - - Show Bio

when Snoke lost to two noob Jedi (with guards on his side!!) he was being discredited too much, that`s why i`m with Dooku. no retcon could save him now.

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#199 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@aotd:

When he was caught off guard. Even Palpatine lost to a far inferior foe when caught off guard.

Also, if we want to go by that logic, then we could say Windu lost to Anakin because Anakin disabled him. However, it was a cheap-shot. Just like Snoke. In actual combative scenarios, Snoke one-shotted both Rey and Kylo with laughable ease.

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#200 Posted by Thoromdil (1840 posts) - - Show Bio

@thoromdil:

Let's see what Snoke can do:

So, just listing his powers and ignoring all his feats? Oh well, we're off to a great start.

Is that how you start your argument every time? By being hostile and unkind simply because we disagree? You acuse me of being ignorant and of not posting feats for Snoke from the very start? If you have actually read the post first, then commented, you would know I actually listed Snoke's feats, not just his powers. How about we just have a civil argument about these two great characters and figure out who is most likely going to win this battle by presenting good arguments? I mean how is acting as if I just hurt your mother going to help here. Calm down and let's talk.

He can use force lightning. We never saw to what extent though, he once surprised undefending Kylo with it but didnt even hurt him.

Kylo wasn't undefending nor was he caught off guard-

Any proof? Just because Kylo had a hostile position doesn't mean he was expecting to be zapped.

he got up to attack Snoke after the latter berated him for his failure, but got slapped aside by Snoke's infinitely superior power.

Kylo has no other feats defending from lightning, so we have no idea how much power do you need to slap him aside. That and the fact that Kylo clearly was not expecting a sudden ZAP make this feat barely quantifiable. It definitely does not make it better then Dooku's feats, who slapped aside very powerful characters just as easily, and while they actually had their guards up and were facing him in a fight. Here's a clip of Dooku absolutely wrecking fully trained knight Anakin in a middle of their fight, despite Anakin showing before in TCW movie he is able to defend from force lightning, and despite the fact that he had his guard up. I dont think you have any doubts that Anakin at that point was much more powerful then Kylo so this feat is simply much, much better.

No Caption Provided

Not only that, but Dooku displayed the ability to use force lightning AND telekinesis at the same time, on multiple targets, even when he is poison and weakened, although his enemies included very powerful and formidable Vetress. Not only is Dooku's 1 vs 1 lightning feats better, but he does have feats of combining it with other powers and stomping many targets at once with it, which I think makes the difference between his feats and Snoke's feats so large that not even you can doubt that the gap is there.

No Caption Provided

Let's move on, shall we.

Snoke can use telekinesis. He only ever ragdolled two people with it though, one was Hux who is not force sensitive, and Rey who is a self taught greenhorn in using the force.

A "self taught greenhorn" who lifted boulders large enough to cover a cave entrance

how is lifting a few tons of rocks so impressive? We have seen many characters do much, MUCH better feats with telekinesis. Some characters like Yoda, whom Dooku matched in telekinesis figts could do this:

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with a casual display of power and had raw strength that eclipsed that of Palpatine's.

How is Rey eclipsing Palpatine in any way? I have no idea where did you get that idea but no feats can support such statement. If there are feats that can support that claim though, please share it.

And no, she wasn't only self taught, she obviously learned some things under Luke off-screen;

No, she obviously did not learn from Luke off screen, as Luke refused to teach her. Please, watch TLJ again. Luke does not want to train Rey at all at first, and when he agrees, he only agrees to give her THREE lessons. None of them included lightsaber training, as Rey practiced on her own as we've seen in the movie.

different scenes on Ahch-To make a certain passage of time clear. It's illogical to assume that she got no training at all, but rather got a little bit of training under Luke off-screen. Much like Luke's training with Yoda- sure, we saw more of it, but what we saw wasn't enough to justify him not being one-shotted by Vader.

Luke did train with Yoda, and Yoda never said he will only give him a limited amount of lessons. He was also there for a long, unspecified amount of time, while we know Rey was on an Island for just a few days. We saw Luke training in the force, we saw Luke train his physicals, agility and reflexes, we saw Luke train in saber combat with Obi Wan, we saw Luke train a LOT and it was made clear that his masters DO want to teach him and that Luke is making progress. Rey was dismissed by Luke and then he said he will give her 3 lessons, and none of them included saber training, they were literally a talk-through lessons of Luke saying things like jedi history and his point of view on it to Rey. I hope you can see the difference now. There is no proof Rey ever got a single combat lesson from Luke or anyone else. You can't just assume she did because she fights well. She was fighting Kylo and she beat him before she ever met Luke so that is not any explanation.

Are these feats enough to overpower Dooku, who has a lot better feats in telekinesis on his own?

Rey's boulder feat- which some like to lowball by saying the rocks were no bigger than human torsos, ignoring that the rocks came in different sizes and that some were much bigger than a human- is comparable to or at least not far off to what Dooku has in Disney Canon, and yet Snoke was ludicrously more powerful than her to the point where he could one-shot her while in a playful mood.

Now hold on a second. How is Rey being able to move large rocks make her obviously good in resisting hostile telekinesis? She was never taught, or displayed any tutaminis, and she never blocked a force push or did anything like that.

Not seeing Dooku's far better telekinesis- sure, he has more material to draw from than Snoke, but that doesn't make him more powerful.

Dooku's feats with telekinesis are not just plentiful, but they are also very good. Though I can surely agree that in telekinesis Snoke is closer to Dooku than in anything else, Dooku does have much better feats of telekinesis none the less.

First, Dooku doesn't just has great scale in his feats, like moving tons of rocks or something, he has an obvious MASTERY in the art. He doesn't just move tons of rocks, he is so precise in his power he can make dozens of multi ton pillars move slowly vertically and hover in the air perfectly above their resting places without any prior concentration or struggle, he just does it. Incredible feat of mastery in the telekinesis.

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Then, Dooku can use force crush to great effects. He can crush a huge steel pillar with a brief gesture as if it was made out of paper. Just imagine how much force must've ben applied there. Surely much better then it takes to hold and ragdoll a tiny body of Hux and Rey, who altough powerful, again never received a proper training in resisting force attacks for all we know, and it doesn't automatically mean she can do it.

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Then, there are other abilities that are further proof of Dooku's mastery in telekinesis. Like very rare and requiering a vast knowledge in the force ability to use telekinesis to fly:

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And an incredible mastery of force choke. Enough to ragdoll a master as powerful as Obi Wan with it, and while being in a fight to the death against Zonakin at the same time:

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All these feats put him simply above Snoke, who can't just magically be considered superior because of scalings and hype. He does not have enough feats of value to be put on this level, and even if you will make the argument his telekinesis is more powerful, then well, Dooku still has a MUCH bigger arsenal of different uses of this power, which gives him more options in combat and turns this in his favor.

Snoke can send his pretorian guards at Dooku. These guys are the very definition of fodder.

"Fodder" that were highly trained in Echani battle arts as well as Teras Kasi that were assigned to protect Supreme Leader Snoke, someone who is noted to possess "limitless" resources- if they were scrubs, Snoke wouldn't use them to protect himself against his enemies.

Well I do care about feats, not statements. They can be trained in Kung Fu by Master Oogway Neo hybrid, but before they show what they can do with all that training they are still not worth much.

They had like 5 vs 1 number advantage and couldnt even beat Rey of all people, who had literal ONE 60 second long lesson in saber combat, WITHOUT AN INSTRUCTOR.

4 vs 1, and Kylo clearly carried that fight.

That's why Rey had to save him by throwing a saber into a face of a guy who had him in the lock?

Rey struggled immensely against the guards.

I know she struggled, but she won with no training in a 4 vs 1 fight. If a guy with barely any training in boxing will win a fight with 4 fully trained boxers in a ring, will you call the 4 boxers non fodder, no matter how much the other guy struggled? I don't think so.

As for your ramblings of her having one 60 second long lesson in combat, they're laughably misinformed. First off, Luke accepted to train Rey, and she spent multiple days on Ahch To- what did she do during that time? Stare at the night sky? Walk around? Her skills were also far more refined than they were in TFA- Force power is one thing, but you can't just improve that much in skill without a bit of training at least. So Rey trained with the saber not only there, and even there Luke was watching her.

I already adressed that above. Luke did not want to train Rey for much of her time there, so yes, she did watch night sky during that time, and when he agreed he only specifically agreed to give her three lessons. Lightsaber training was never adressed and we only saw Rey training for a minute and alone. You are not making any argument here, you are arguying for a case that clearly wasn't there and there is no proof it ever happened, unlike Luke and Yoda, who's training we clearly saw.

So no, the Praetorians nearly defeating Rey and Kylo- the latter needing Rey to avoid death and the former only surviving due to sheer dumb luck- is not a bad feat in the slightest.

Losing 4 vs 1 fight is a very bad feat. Like I said above, if a boxers wins a fight in a ring against other 4 boxers with barely any training, the 4 guys will get booed to no end and lose their jobs. You can't call pretorian guards good fighters, especially not a challenge for Dooku after pulling something like that.

Will this be enough to challenge Dooku, who is known to be one of the best swordsmen in history of star wars, capable of challenging the best of the best like Yoda?

He barely challenged a holding back Yoda.

He still challenged him. Barely, holding back, who cares. Yoda was visibly exhasuted and inhaling hard after the fight. It was by no means a stomp. That's a great feat for Dooku, and one easily enough to ride through the asses of Pretorian guards without breaking a sweat.

He's a full tier below Yoda, meaning he's a "huge jump" away from the little green master.

I never said he is in the same tier as Yoda. In fact, I do think he is an entire tire below. He still did challenge him though, and did very well as he did tired him and was able to escape when he wanted to.

...and that's it. Done. These are the only 3 actions Snoke can take against Dooku based on his combat feats.

All you did was list Snoke's capabilities, one or two of his feats while lowballing them to hell, and randomly say Dooku could beat him. Now let's educate you, shall we?

Again, your hostility amuses me. All I did was listed actual feats for Snoke and gave my perspective on it. How did this hurt you so personally I have no idea. Hopefully this wont happen again, because I would rather not waste my time arueing with people who can't show basic respect in conversation.

First off, Snoke's implied to be extremely powerful:

A master of the Force and a seeker of arcane lore, Snoke seduced young Ben Solo when the Force-sensitive boy desperately needed a teacher.

Star Wars Databank
Master of the force is a title that can be adressed to many characters, including Obi Wan, who Dooku stomped without breaking a sweat. I'm not convinced how is that supposed to replace his lacking combat feats, espcially against a character so well developped and powerful as Dooku.

Snoke is bloody dark; way darker than Palpatine...

He is the dark end of the Force.

[Snoke is] definitely not a Sith, but he’s certainly at the darker end of the Force.

Andy Serkis
This is a statement from actor, not an actual source. Please use actual sources only if you are going to use texts as arguments. Actors claim lots of things about their characters without having the authorisation of the writer, director or any other people who actually decide who is how powerful and so on. None the less, Andy doesn't say anything here that suggests that Snoke can beat Dooku. Being darker then Palpatine can mean a lot of things. Being more sadistic or cruel or evil included. That does not mean Snoke will be suddenly able to overpower Dooku in a fight.

In Canon, you'll be hard pressed to find accolades that match these.

Again, these quotes did not consist of anything that prove Snoke can beat Dooku, so I cant see your point.

Second, while Snoke doesn't have many combative feats, what he did to Rey- whose big TK feat isn't that far off from Dooku's best- should be beyond Dooku's capability.

I already explained, that Rey is not a properly trained jedi knight or master. She had barely any training and we never saw her train in defending against hostile force attacks. She could've been just in shock and not resisting at all for all we know as she was never attacked like this before. This does not prove Snoke can do the same to Dooku who was a top tier fully trained jedi master and then a fully trained Sith Lord.

Note, I never said Dooku couldn't beat her, I'm just questioning the notion of him being able to one-shot her.

Snoke's TP bond feat is also one the most impressive in Canon as a whole, and it certainly outstrips anything Dooku has done.

Again, I put above a lot of very impressive feats of TK for Dooku, that clearly give him much wider and more consistent power level in telekinesis, against a variety of well trained opponents, while Snoke only used his to defeat a barely trained Rey. I think you agree that just having great power doesn't mean you can use it. Luke as a teenager had all of the power and potential within him but he never used it in any way until he was trained by Obi Wan and Yoda. You NEED to be trained to use force powers. Rey was thinking just the other day force is just use to move objects. How is she supposed to be suddenly a master in resisting telekinesis without training. Snokes feat is hollow, and it's not enough to win against great amount of great and solid feats of Dooku

Let's see just how impressive this feat is.

Kylo and Rey were in opposite ends of the galaxy- light-years away from each other- and Snoke still managed to connect them, which is even more impressive seeing as how he was completely unaware of Rey's location at the time. Kylo also noted that the effort of maintaning the bond and speaking to Kylo would kill Rey, but they did it without any problem due to Snoke's powers. This is already extremely impressive, but we're just scraping the surface here.

This is Sith Sorcery if anything, and it is not an ability that can be used in a fight. Snoke could not even read Kylo's true intentions when he murdered him although he claimed to be gaping right inside his skull, so I doubt his TP can be argued to have an influence in a fight all that much.

Kylo and Rey could see each other pretty vividly, to the point where they touched hands. And this bit is what truly make Snoke's feat a gargantuan achievement- just by touching each other's hands, something very special happened between Ben and Rey- some of Solo's powers were transferred to Rey, hence why she was roughly as powerful as him despite her inferior training. Rey also claimed that in this moment she peered into Kylo's future, and saw that he would turn back, which remains to be seen. So far, we know that Snoke connected two people across the galaxy despite not knowing the location of one of them, maintained the bond with no effort despite Kylo nothing that in a normal situation Rey would die trying to maintain it, and the bond between them was so close that just by "touching" hands some of Ben's powers were transferred to Rey, who could allegedly see Solo's future.

And then, to put the icing on the cake, the bond was clearly there at the end of the movie, where Snoke was seemingly dead. So the bond was so strong that it lived on even after Snoke, the being who created it, had perished. No, this feat isn't combative, but it does speak a lot about Snoke's power, and it surpasses anything Dooku has done anyway.

This feat is impressive, but it gives no argument on how and why can Snoke beat Dooku. Again, we need feats to beat a Sith Lord as powerful as Dooku, just because someone can do some impressive Sith Sorcery doesn't mean he can stomp someone in a fight. That simple.

In Canon, Snoke alone is demonstrably more powerful than Dooku,

No, he wasn't. I already proved that above with plenty of arguments.

and can beat him with his Force power- and no, there's no proof someone as powerful as Snoke can be saberblizted, even by the likes of Dooku.

No proof for that either, not that Dooku needs to saber blitz to win if he is better in every way, like I proved above.

So now that we've established Snoke can overpower Dooku on his own,

How and when did you establish Snoke can overpower Dooku? Can you please explain that little detail to me? His feat of overpowering barely trained Rey can not possibly be that is it? How does that translated into overpowering someone on the level of Dooku?

what do you think will happen by adding distractions? Simple. Dooku dies.

Dooku is never going to be distracted by Pretorian Guards. He will fry them with force lightning initially without any trouble and then proceed to cut down Snoke, who doesn't even have a lightsaber to defend himself, and does not have feats to win a force battle against Dooku either.

In all 3, Dooku comes on top by a rather huge margin.

The only thing Dooku comes on top by a rather huge margin is sabers, and for Dooku to close the gap in time his powers would have to at least rival Snoke's- they don't. Dooku gets blown away.

And I didnt even mention Dooku's own feats and abilities he can use against Snoke, which are plenty.

Well, maybe you should, just so Dooku can have even a slight chance of winning this fight.

Well, now I did, hopefully you will be satisfied.

I cant see an argument being made for Snoke at all.

If that is so, then why did you fail miserably in making an argument against Snoke?

Again, no reason to be hostile, it's just a debate over ficitional character.

Hype alone can not replace feats.

Quality beats quantity.

Agreed. It's one of the reasons why Dooku beats Snoke. He has quantity on his side too, though.

Just because Dooku has more material to draw from doesn't mean he is more powerful. And as I have proven, he isn't.

Dooku wins this 10/10.

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