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#101 Posted by JediXMan (42741 posts) - - Show Bio

If Snoke is legitimately stronger with the Force than Dooku, he solos. The Guards are worthless.

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#102 Posted by JediXMan (42741 posts) - - Show Bio
@sirfizzwhizz said:
@dawn_of_ages said:

Nice to see Dooku getting respect.

It is nice.

A little too much imo. Actually it's not so much Dooku getting to much respect, it's just nobody respects the new movies.

Bit of both. Dooku actually does deserve more respect; the new movie characters deserve less.

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#103 Edited by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman:

Bit of both. Dooku actually does deserve more respect; the new movie characters deserve less.

I agree with that, but this is a 10 v 1, one member being an extremely old and powerful darkside user, and another being a skywalker who has been trained in the dark and light side since he was young.

Dooku vs all 8 praetorians is a battle I think he has a good chance of winning. Or Kylo plus 4 guards. But all 8, Kylo, and Snoke? Way too much. Imo Snoke could arguably solo based off of hype. Though I maygive it to Dooku as I think his force power is close enough to possibly force the fight into a lightsaber battle where he obviously wins. Snoke may even be strong enough to rag doll Dooku, in fact I wouldn't be surprised, but given that Dooku could shoot lightning back he could force Snoke to block and close the distance.

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#104 Posted by JediXMan (42741 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman:

Bit of both. Dooku actually does deserve more respect; the new movie characters deserve less.

I agree with that, but this is a 10 v 1, one member being an extremely old and powerful darkside user, and another being a skywalker who has been trained in the dark and light side since he was young.

What? It's a 6 v. 1, and none of them are Skywalkers.

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#105 Edited by Wolfrazer (16286 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss said:

@jedixman:

Bit of both. Dooku actually does deserve more respect; the new movie characters deserve less.

Imo Snoke could arguably solo based off of hype. Snoke may even be strong enough to rag doll Dooku, in fact I wouldn't be surprised

But why? All we have is that Snoke is powerful, he ragdolled Rey and bolted a kneeling Kylo.

Why is ragdolling Rey = Suddenly Snoke could ragdoll anyone and everything/everyone?

I mean going by that logic, Dooku ragdolled lighting AoTC Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One who would have more training with The Force and raw potential. So does this mean Dooku could ragdoll anyone too?

I don't get how any of you on here, mange to gauge these new characters to older ones when the newer ones are far more limited in who they can interact with Force wise.

Ok so Rey's rock feat, yeah it's impressive...for her, but now why is this feat suddenly so unattainable for other Force Users, powerful Force Users no less who have actual Force training when she hasn't really trained much with it to begin with? Those who have similar feats and have greater Force control.

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#106 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman:

What? It's a 6 v. 1, and none of them are Skywalkers.

I could of sworn Kylo was here... I guess that was the Maul vs Snoke thread.

And I assumed it was all 8 guards but the OP says "all 5 guards". I guess we should go with 5, but that's not all of them.

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#107 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer:

But why? All we have is that Snoke is powerful, he ragdolled Rey and bolted a kneeling Kylo.

Why is ragdolling Rey = Suddenly Snoke could ragdoll anyone and everything/everyone?

Well Rey is a prodigy, has good feats, and most of all is a Mary Sue. The fact they let a character that looks like an ugly rich old white guy defeat their Marry Sue that overcomes every obstacle she has means he must be powerful.

I mean going by that logic, Dooku ragdolled lighting AoTC Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One who would have more training with The Force and raw potential. So does this mean Dooku could ragdoll anyone too?

The ragdolling was on a completely different level. Dooku shot Anakin with lighting knocking him 10 feet to the side. Snoke literally grabbed Reyw ith the force and could move her like a doll. She couldn't move one inch of her body and Snoke was holding her like that indefinitely and looking like he wasn't struggling at all.

I don't get how any of you on here, mange to gauge these new characters to older ones when the newer ones are far more limited in who they can interact with Force wise.

We should be able to gauge off of Kylo considering he has been trained as a jedi since he was young and trained by Snoke as well. He is over 20 and is a prodigy, so this should mean he is close to characters like ep1 Kenobi, and ep 2 Anakin at the very least. Rey is equal to him with he force. Snoke treating ep 1 Kenobi/ep 2 anakin/ ep 5 Luke characters the way he did should put him above Dooku. The difference in power was so vast they literally couldn't' fight back. Dooku could stomp all of them, but he actually has to engage them, unless they are stupid.

Ok so Rey's rock feat, yeah it's impressive...for her, but now why is this feat suddenly so unattainable for other Force Users, powerful Force Users no less who have actual Force training when she hasn't really trained much with it to begin with?

She is a Mary Sue, training is irreverent with her for some odd reason. Kylo makes sense, she doesn't.

Those who have similar feats and have greater Force control.

Nobody below Maul/Dooku/Kenobi/Anakin ect. level have shown feats on Rey's level when it comes to force power. In terms of force power and control Rey should be right under Maul/Kenobi.

As of now this is how I see the force power scale going (subject to change)

TLJ Ghost Yoda

ROTJ Emperor Palpatine

ROTS Yoda, ROTS Palpatine, Snoke

Vader/Anakin, mother Talzin (with magic)

Dooku, Ben Kenobi, Rebels Maul

Mace, CW Maul, ROTS Kenobi, Rebels Ahsoka

Kylo, Rey, ROTJ Luke, Qui-gon, TPM Maul, Savage, Assaj, Kit Fisto, AOTC Anakin, AOTC Kenobi

TPM Kenobi, ESB Luke, CW Ahsoka, Kanan, Ezra, Barris, Luminara, Adi Gallia

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#108 Edited by Wolfrazer (16286 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Dooku used both TK and lighting on Anakin, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to hold him like that.

Why is this putting him above Dooku? Episode 1 Kenobi, Episode 2 Anakin and Episode 5 Luke shouldn't be anything to Dooku either.

If Dooku is above Maul and you have Rey on the same level....I'm not seeing what advantage Snoke has.

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#109 Posted by killers10333 (3441 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku

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#110 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer:

Dooku used both TK and lighting on Anakin, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to hold him like that.

Yes I mentioned that. But he really just tossed him. Snoke suspended Rey in mid air and she couldn't even move a muscle. Snoke likely could of just done that to Anakin and Obi-wan at the same time took their lightsabers as they were frozen and killed them.

Why is this putting him above Dooku? Episode 1 Kenobi, Episode 2 Anakin and Episode 5 Luke shouldn't be anything to Dooku either.

They can't do anything to him, but they can't be played with like action figures either. It's like saying a big guy tossing a small guy is the same as an even bigger guy lifting and holding the small guy in the air with ease for a long period of time.

If Dooku is above Maul and you have Rey on the same level....I'm not seeing what advantage Snoke has.

Snoke can legit freeze and control people Rey/average jedi master tier. Dooku can't or at least hasn't shown he can. He can toss them around a bit, but not like what Snoke did. A feat comparable to Snoke's is like how Sidious pinned Maul and Savage against the wall at the same time.

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#111 Edited by Wolfrazer (16286 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Why wouldn’t Dooku be able to? It’s just an application of TK and holding them, it should be basic. Which he did do briefly before throwing Obi-Wan and then fighting Anakin.

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#112 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Snoke hasn’t froze anyone average Jedi Master tier. And Dooku catching Obi-Wan and holding him before throwing him in there beginning of ROTS sounds like why you and Wolf are talking about.

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#113 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas:

Snoke hasn’t froze anyone average Jedi Master tier.

Kylo logically should be average to low end jedi master tier at the very least when it comes to the force and Rey is his equal. Kylo is around the same age if not older than TPM Maul and has better genetics, so there is no reason his force power wouldn't at least be comparable to his, and TPM Maul is at least average jedi master level when it comes to force power.

@wolfrazer:

Why wouldn’t Dooku be able to? It’s just an application of TK and holding them, it should be basic. Which he did do briefly before throwing Obi-Wan and then fighting Anakin.

Ya that was a good feat, though Obi-wan was still moving one of his arms.

Against Snoke Rey was completely helpless. The scenes are really incomparable when it comes to visuals.

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#114 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas:

Snoke hasn’t froze anyone average Jedi Master tier.

Kylo logically should be average to low end jedi master tier at the very least when it comes to the force and Rey is his equal. Kylo is around the same age if not older than TPM Maul and has better genetics, so there is no reason his force power wouldn't at least be comparable to his, and TPM Maul is at least average jedi master level when it comes to force power.

Rey matching his TK pull in TLJ doesn't put her as his equal and it shouldn't. The only time they're actually even is potential/Force connection, as Luke mentions and Snoke alludes to.

All this power scaling doesn't work in SW as it does other verses. And no, Maul didn't do anything Force-wise around TPM to say he's the same level as an average Jedi, as Maul was mostly known for and trained for lightsaber combat.

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#115 Edited by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas:

Rey matching his TK pull in TLJ doesn't put her as his equal and it shouldn't. The only time they're actually even is potential/Force connection, as Luke mentions and Snoke alludes to.

It proves their raw power at the time was equal. Not much more to say about it than that.

All this power scaling doesn't work in SW as it does other verses. And no, Maul didn't do anything Force-wise around TPM to say he's the same level as an average Jedi,

Qui-gon was an above average jedi master and Obi-wan really wasn't that far behind him and Maul pretty much beat Kenobi with a force push, which is pretty good.

And CW Maul has really good feats, and it's not like CW Maul magically became leagues stronger than TPM. Maybe 10-20% stronger, but there is really no reason to say anymore than that.

Oh and Sidious flat out said the jedi would be no match for Maul.

as Maul was mostly known for and trained for lightsaber combat.

In canon I'm pretty sure that is false and Maul had extremely high potential, logically it should be close to Talzin's.

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#116 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: But it doesn’t prove that they’re equals in everything and that freezing her means he can freeze anyone around or at Kylo’s level.

Obi-Wan wasn’t really that far behind Qui-again in what, and based on what? We’re talking about Force power and power levels here. Neither of them showed anything in terms of Force power, so saying they’re “average level” or “not that far behind” doesn’t have any bearing behind it.

The fact that CW Maul has way better feats than he did around TPM literally proves that he got much stronger.

And they basically weren’t. In terms of dueling, not Force power.

In Canon Maul was pushed back and overwhelmed by a Padawan’s TK. In both Canon and Legends he was more focused on lightsaber dueling and martial arts rather than the Force, which is why in his Canon comics he goes out and fights a bunch of dangerous creatures with meee weapons and uses the Force for small things like breaking a branch or growing debris to open a door like he did in the movie. I see nothing indicating that his potential should be “logically” close to Talzin’s.

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#117 Edited by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas:

But it doesn’t prove that they’re equals in everything and that freezing her means he can freeze anyone around or at Kylo’s level.

I would agree if he had trouble freezing her, but he did it so easily that it is hard to believe he couldn't do it to people quite a bit stronger than Rey if he actually put effort into it.

Obi-Wan wasn’t really that far behind Qui-again in what, and based on what? We’re talking about Force power and power levels here. Neither of them showed anything in terms of Force power, so saying they’re “average level” or “not that far behind” doesn’t have any bearing behind it.

Well Qui-gon was the first jedi to discover how to become a force ghost and is pretty much the main character of ep 1 (yes being a main character automatically makes you stronger than average characters). As for Kenobi being not far behind him, Qui-gon says it right in the movie.

The fact that CW Maul has way better feats than he did around TPM literally proves that he got much stronger.

Savage Opress also has way better feats, yet I doubt he is above TPM Maul.

And they basically weren’t. In terms of dueling, not Force power.

Ya, but for Maul to have the speed and reactions he did he most likely needed a strong connection to the force.

In Canon Maul was pushed back and overwhelmed by a Padawan’s TK. In both Canon and Legends he was more focused on lightsaber dueling and martial arts rather than the Force, which is why in his Canon comics he goes out and fights a bunch of dangerous creatures with meee weapons and uses the Force for small things like breaking a branch or growing debris to open a door like he did in the movie.

He actually broke the entire tree, not just a branch.

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And he was able to use the force to kill a guy with a knife while blind.

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Used the force to suffocate some guy with his robe mid combat.

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Looks to be force choking someone mid combat.

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These alone easily put him at least put him on canon average jedi master level.

I mean these are pretty much average masters

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Luminara couldn't lift these pipes.
Luminara couldn't lift these pipes.
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I mean saying TPM Maul isn't above these guys in the force is kind of ridiculous.

I see nothing indicating that his potential should be “logically” close to Talzin’s.

He is her son and his potential was great enough to get Sidious' notice. You really think Sidious was like "this guy seems average I will waist my time training him for 20 years". He sensed a strong connection in the force with him and he was the son of one of the strongest beings in the universe. Saying his potential isn't far greater than most force users doesn't make much sense and he chose Maul over Talzin as supposedly she was originally supposed to become his apprentice.

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#118 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Doesn't really matter since we won’t get to see it in action and since we don’t have any indication of his power level. All we can say is “he’s stronger than this person” but so are a lot of people.

How does discovering how to become a Force Ghost after you’re dead translate to Force power when you’re alive? And no, being a main character doesn’t make you stronger. Lazy argument if I ever saw one.

Did you just say “this character has better feats than another character but I don’t think he’s above that character”?

Or he was trained for years on end and is stated to be one of he most skilled Sith in the Order? Sure Force connection has some to do with it but it’s not the main reason. If all yo unseeded was a Force connection to be good at saver combat, nobody would practice as much as they do.

I know all of those feats. None of them put him above “average Jedi Master” at that time especially when he’s been shoved around by a Padawan. You also seem to be missing a lot of “context” to literally every one of those gifs you posted. The biggest mistake again is we’re talking about Force power, which you seem to keep forgetting because you posted one feat of a Jedi using the Force.

It doesn’t matter what his “potential” is. Potential is unrealized power. Luke was supposed to have his father’s potential and his best feats we see outside of TLJ are pushing stormtroopers and catching a few rocks. Also don’t put words in my mouth. I said there’s no reason to assume his potential is around Talzin’s level, not “he’s not above your average Jedi in potential”.

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#119 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz said:
@dawn_of_ages said:

Nice to see Dooku getting respect.

It is nice.

A little too much imo. Actually it's not so much Dooku getting to much respect, it's just nobody respects the new movies.

They don't deserve respect jk

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#120 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: @alextheboss: did you all forget when Dooku TK and force lightning Ventress and her two sisters for a lengthy time and threw them out a window?

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Guess so.

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#121 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku wins.

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#122 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas said:

Luke was supposed to have his father’s potential and his best feats we see outside of TLJ are pushing stormtroopers and catching a few rocks.

ESB Luke shook a an entire Star Destroyer with TK though, IIRC.

ROTS Yoda, ROTS Palpatine, Snoke

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#123 Posted by AlphaQ (6356 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Considering Kreel survived that attack Han could well have been exaggerating or making assumptions. Definitely seems weird a stormtrooper can tank SD shaking blows.

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#124 Edited by AlphaQ (6356 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas said:

In Canon Maul was pushed back and overwhelmed by a Padawan’s TK.

Was he really? Is this in one of the recent Maul comics?

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#125 Posted by Wolfrazer (16286 posts) - - Show Bio
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#126 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku stomps the guards with lightning and gives Snoke the Tiplee treatment.

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#127 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas:

How does discovering how to become a Force Ghost after you’re dead translate to Force power when you’re alive? And no, being a main character doesn’t make you stronger. Lazy argument if I ever saw one.

He discovered how to do it while alive though, or at least that's what the CW implied.

Did you just say “this character has better feats than another character but I don’t think he’s above that character”?

Yes? Savage Opress has better feats than Mace Windu, Ben Kenobi, and a lot of people, but scaling off of him getting wrecked by Dooku, he obviously isn't stronger than them, or at least not by much. Butt he fact that Talzen said Maul would complete his training, and Dooku said he wanted to make him a great warrior like Maul, implies TPM Maul was above him.

So do you think Savage Opress could beat Emperor Palpatine or Darth Vader from the original trilogy? You should no better that a narrative can trump a lack of feats.

Or he was trained for years on end and is stated to be one of he most skilled Sith in the Order? Sure Force connection has some to do with it but it’s not the main reason. If all yo unseeded was a Force connection to be good at saver combat, nobody would practice as much as they do.

That's not all you need but that definitely helps a lot. Rey was a better duelist than Finn (a trained stormtrooper) because she was strong in the force. Obviously Maul intensely trained, but so did many jedi. They just aren't on his level. Jedi like Dooku and Mace were.

I know all of those feats. None of them put him above “average Jedi Master” at that time especially when he’s been shoved around by a Padawan.

She knocked him back with a force push once... It's not a big deal. Also do we even know when exactly this took place in the time line?

You also seem to be missing a lot of “context” to literally every one of those gifs you posted. The biggest mistake again is we’re talking about Force power, which you seem to keep forgetting because you posted one feat of a Jedi using the Force.

One jedi resorted to h2h combat against Savage (as he was probably to weak in the force to do anything to Savage) and he couldn't even beat Savage without a lightsaber when he had one himself. I shouldn't have to prove he is weaker in the force than Maul, he's a chump.

Master Peele didn't foresee the dog thing killing him, which is a force power.

Adi Galia got overpowered with a force push.

And the last guy couldn't react to a small amount of droids firing at him. So his force reaction time or speed wasn't good enough.

It doesn’t matter what his “potential” is. Potential is unrealized power. Luke was supposed to have his father’s potential and his best feats we see outside of TLJ are pushing stormtroopers and catching a few rocks. Also don’t put words in my mouth. I said there’s no reason to assume his potential is around Talzin’s level, not “he’s not above your average Jedi in potential”.

While I did say Palpatine chose Maul over Talzin as an apprentice for reason his potential could be around hers. Also she is his mom and Anakin, Ben, Luke and Lea are all strong in the force because they are a family, don't see why the same wouldn't apply here when it is backed up by Palpatine taking interest in Maul.

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#128 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: Ya that is impressive, mostly because of Ventress though as the nightsisters are pretty much fodder. Dooku is one of the characters I think is strong enough as to where he can negate Soke's power enough to close the distance.

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#129 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4169 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8008 said:

I feel like Snoke is more powerful than Dooku but there's no proof he can fight at all. The guards are fodder.

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#130 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: Issue 5 of his solo comic run. He mentions he underestimated her, but still.

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#131 Posted by AlphaQ (6356 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas said:

@alphaq: Issue 5 of his solo comic run. He mentions he underestimated her, but still.

Well damn, I'm looking at the scans now and this is hilarious. Thanks.

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#132 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss said:

ROTS Yoda, ROTS Palpatine, Snoke

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My reason for putting Snoke there is more on hype, but I could see dropping him to the Anikan/Vader level.

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#133 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:
@alextheboss said:

ROTS Yoda, ROTS Palpatine, Snoke

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My reason for putting Snoke there is more on hype, but I could see dropping him to the Anikan/Vader level.

He's sub-TPM Kenobi

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#134 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio
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#135 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke has no lightsaber, right? That's why he has the guards?

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#136 Posted by Wolfrazer (16286 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke has no lightsaber, right? That's why he has the guards?

Well his body is fragile, he can't move much so that's why he has his guards. Well and yeah he doesn't have a saber.

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#137 Posted by sportjames23 (1110 posts) - - Show Bio
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#138 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#139 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Why? Why bump another sequel trilogy?

On topic, Dooku gets wrecked. The Praetorians can distract him for a few seconds for Snoke to unleash hell with his Force powers.

Snoke doesn't need the guards at all- the guards simply make this more one-sided.

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#140 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio
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#141 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Count Dooku takes a deep breath and blows the throne room doors open. He activates his crimson lightsaber.

"Ah. Count Dookie. We've been expecting you." Snoke screeched. "Kill him!" The Praetorian Guards attacked the elderly gentleman. Dooku impaled one then easily dodged another's strike, making him stumble onto to the vibroblade of another guard.

Snoke stretched his hand out and blasted Dooku away, making him fall off the bottomless pit behind. Dooku screamed as he fell to his demise. Snoke let out a war cry but felt weak. He looked down to the floor and crumpled on his chair, succumbing to the sudden heart attack that had just befallen him.

Star Wars: The Phantom Clones of the Sith Strike Back

I guess no one wins.

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#142 Edited by RuizhiPieter (75 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke and his Praetorian Guards not only is Dooku old, he is outnumbered and Snoke will just use force powers and throw Dooku around.

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#143 Posted by Richard96 (5807 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku steamrolls

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#145 Posted by AnonymousJedi (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the distance; up close, Dolly. At a distance, most likely the team - the guard makes little difference here.

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#146 Posted by Erkan12 (8435 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke + 5 praetorian guards who can deflect lightsabers are too much. The only way for Dooku to win this, Snoke will just watch when Dooku defeats 5 guards.

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#147 Edited by Pierpat (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a clear istance where battle forum rules conflict with what the original works imply.

To me it's clear that snoke was meant to be stronger than dooku with the force, probably Palpatine level if not above.

The tone of his presentation, his showings that made everyone else utterly powerless when compared to him, etc.

But hey, we are in a battle forum and feats matter.

Snoke doesn't have the feats to take on dooku, by feats he's on the same level of force proficency (with canon) or below (with legends) and the guards are fodder to dooku.

So... Count wins, even if probably the authors would disagree.

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#148 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat: Honestly, in terms of feats, yeah Snoke wins. He was casually ragdolling/dominating Rey, who's boulder feat is perhaps the best TK feat in canon bar Yoda, Vader, and Sidious.

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#149 Posted by Pierpat (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat: Honestly, in terms of feats, yeah Snoke wins. He was casually ragdolling/dominating Rey, who's boulder feat is perhaps the best TK feat in canon bar Yoda, Vader, and Sidious.

Clone wars is canon, dooku has the monolyth scene that is comparable and was performed very casually.
Moreover he has radgolled strong force users such has Obi wan and quilan vos, Snoke ain't radgolling him.

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#150 Posted by Grinningf0x (1484 posts) - - Show Bio

Team takes it mid diff