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#51 Edited by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: The tech in the new trilogy seems a lot more advanced regardless. R2D2 looks and functions like a rust-bucket compared to BB8.

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#52 Posted by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke has a lot of implied power but not much to show for it unfortunately.

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#53 Posted by AlphaQ (6356 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16808 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: Snoke was never meant to be the big bad guy: it was meant to be Ren. He needed to die.

Regardless, him being treated poorly in the film as a character does not reflect on him as a combatant. Sheev died via being carried and thrown like a child throwing a tantrum. The point of him being insanely powerful still came across.

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#55 Edited by Aka_aka_aka_ak (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm new here so if I've done something wrong, or if I'm late to the party just say and I'll delete my comment.

Snoke stomps on his own. This is bordering on mismatch. Let's first assess Rey and then Snoke by comparing to Rey. At the end of the Last Jedi, Rey lifts several massive boulders with ease, she's hardly concentrating; Yoda himself has strained to lift objects that would weigh arguably less than a single one of the boulders (e.g. Luke's ship), this puts Rey's telekinesis orders of magnitude above Yoda's. Rey is said to be Kylo Ren's equal who is of the Skywalker blood line and one of the strongest naturally gifted force users in the entire series, pair this with years of training and Kylo should already be comparable to Dooku himself. In short, Rey is already above Dooku in force abilities (although certainly not in lightsaber combat), and Snoke toyed with her. Snoke breaks through Dooku's force shield with ease and crushes him before Dooku can draw his lightsaber.

The paretorian guards together were nearly a match for Kylo and Rey so the guards alone should prove a challenge Dooku. The guards vs Dooku is a fair fight, and the outcome is unclear, but adding Snoke this becomes a stomp.

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#56 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Unless that was shown or stated in an interview or something, I’m not really inclined to believe it. He was introduced to basically be the next Sidious which is what everyone thought after TFA, not Kylo who hadn’t even completed his training.

Sheev also killed four Jedi Masters and ultimately defeated Yoda. Sure he’s powerful but nobody knows *how* powerful. He overpowered Rey and Kylo, sure, but we don’t know how powerful he actually is or how that translates to combat. It’s just like with Finn and Kylo when TFA came out, people are going to lowball due to how the character (Snoke) was treated/portrayed. I still remember the guy who tried claiming everything about Finn being a skilled stormtrooper was false because he was the “comedic relief” of the movie and other users who knew of the circumstances surrounding Kylo’s loss to Rey and chose to flat out ignore them.

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#57 Edited by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

@aka_aka_aka_ak said:

I'm new here so if I've done something wrong, or if I'm late to the party just say and I'll delete my comment.

At the end of the Last Jedi, Rey lifts several massive boulders with ease, she's hardly concentrating;

She does lift a lot of boulders, but to say she is hardly concentrating just isn't true in the context of whats occurring in the film.

Yoda himself has strained to lift objects that would weigh arguably less than a single one of the boulders (e.g. Luke's ship),

Yoda in Empire Strikes Back was older, weaker and close to death. He dies in the next film due to old age. He's clearly nowhere near as powerful as he was in the prequels. You can see in this timestamp of his fight with Sidious that he is able to project one of those discs right back at Sidious, against the momentum of how hard Sidious threw it. So your assertion of Rey > Yoda in TK is misinformed.

Rey is said to be Kylo Ren's equal who is of the Skywalker blood line and one of the strongest naturally gifted force users in the entire series, pair this with years of training and

Rey being Kylo's equal is simply a testament to how bad Kylo is. Snoke even says that himself - he says something along the lines of ''bested by a girl who had never even held a light-saber''. This puts into context how crap Kylo is for a light saber user. In fact, we see how bad Rey is when she fights the guards, there's a few seconds in that battle when she literally just swings her lightsaber aimlessly.

Kylo should already be comparable to Dooku himself.

Massive conjecture based on absolutely nothing.

The guards vs Dooku is a fair fight, and the outcome is unclear

Dooku would trash those guards.

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#58 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16808 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: Unless that was shown or stated in an interview or something, I’m not really inclined to believe it. He was introduced to basically be the next Sidious which is what everyone thought after TFA, not Kylo who hadn’t even completed his training.

Yes, but that was never the intent. We were suppose to be led to believe that, making his death that much more surprising.

Sheev also killed four Jedi Masters and ultimately defeated Yoda.

Two of those Jedi are unquantifiable. Meanwhile, the characters Snoke is treating like dolls are demonstrating some of the best Force feats in Canon, currently(discounting the more extreme sources like Lords of the Sith and Marvel's run of the comics).

Sure he’s powerful but nobody knows *how* powerful. He overpowered Rey and Kylo, sure, but we don’t know how powerful he actually is or how that translates to combat. It’s just like with Finn and Kylo when TFA came out, people are going to lowball due to how the character (Snoke) was treated/portrayed. I still remember the guy who tried claiming everything about Finn being a skilled stormtrooper was false because he was the “comedic relief” of the movie and other users who knew of the circumstances surrounding Kylo’s loss to Rey and chose to flat out ignore them.

Which again, is absolutely stupid. And it's not judging them based on their merits as combatants, but their character.

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#59 Posted by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209:

Two of those Jedi are unquantifiable.

Two of them may be, but Kit-Fisto >>> Rey or Kylo. Sidious killed him with ease.

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#60 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Snoke’s death was a waste of what could have been an extremely interesting character. I wasn’t surprised at all when that happened, I was angry and dissapointed. But I dont think that’s helping the original discussion.

Mace and Kit aren’t, and Sidious dealt with them with ease, as well as Yoda, the strongest Jedi in the Order. And no, I would only put Kylo’s blaster catching as one of the best feats in Canon. Rey hasn’t done anything outside of “pretty good”.

I know and I agree with you, I was just saying that the reason he’s getting lowballed isn’t because “it’s not my Star Wars” or because people do not like the sequel trilogy, it’s because he was wasted as a character. Which yes, is stupid.

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#61 Posted by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: Well he didn't deal with Mace with ease, in fact just going by Disney Canon (as EU is non Canon now) I think that fight is a bit ambigous. Some people seem to think Mace legitimately won whereas others think Palpatine was losing on purpose to get Anakin to his side. The latter would make sense considering Palpatine was on par with Yoda later in the film.

Perhaps @JediXMan can clear up what the status of this fight is in the new canon.

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#62 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: No, you’re right, I meant Palpatine took out three Jedi Masters with ease, not including Mace cause their fight was actually a “fight”.

And in Canon apparently Lucas said that Mace won the fight.

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#63 Edited by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas said:

@frozen: No, you’re right, I meant Palpatine took out three Jedi Masters with ease, not including Mace cause their fight was actually a “fight”.

And in Canon apparently Lucas said that Mace won the fight.

Where did Lucas say that? If Mace won then perhaps Palpatine became more powerful as the film progressed, because I find it hard to reconcile that he loses to Mace yet later stalemates Yoda in the same film without the explanation of either:

  • Losing on purpose
  • Becoming more powerful as the storyline progresses to its climax
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#64 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: In one of the featurettes in a DVD, I believe. I don’t really agree with it either unless you go the route of “Vaapad helped amp him when fighting the strongest Sith Lord”.

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#65 Posted by AlphaQ (6356 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen:

When was this statement made? Regardless, he has done nothing to show for it.

From Kylo's respect thread;

In an article written by two StarWars.com writers named "From a certain point of view: Who is stronger with the Force - Rey or Kylo Ren?", Kylo Ren was named as one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars.

"Kylo Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, is one of the most powerful combatants in the history of Star Wars, and is the leader of the Knights of Ren."

StarWars.com

Also, here is the articles.

I would wager that a regular Jedi from the prequel era could defeat Kylo. Put him against Kit-Fisto and he'd lose.

What? Surely you jest. Even if Kylo was the worst lightsaber duelist who ever lived, he's telekinetically equal to someone who cleared a small cave's worth of boulders while visibly relaxed and without strain. He has also shown to be able to cave room's/buildings in on people in the midst of combat, when he KO'ed Luke. He'd blow them to piece with the Force.

Rey being Kylo's equal is simply a testament to how bad Kylo is. Snoke even says that himself - he says something along the lines of ''bested by a girl who had never even held a light-saber''. This puts into context how crap Kylo is for a light saber user. In fact, we see how bad Rey is when she fights the guards, there's a few seconds in that battle when she literally just swings her lightsaber aimlessly.

Just to correct what Snoke was saying. His words were that he fears Kylo has too much of his father's heart in him, and when Kylo rebukes that he killed Han, Snoke retorts that the act "split your spirit to the bone", left him "unbalanced", all to the degree that he was beaten Rey. He was calling out Kylo's closeness to the light which is evident by how much killing Han hindered him. He wasn't scolding him for a lack of skill, but an abundance of compassion.

And analyzing choreography in movies is ridiculous. Maul, Jinn and Kenobi would be the worst fighters in the world if you put any level of analysis in their TPM fight scene.

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#66 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm new here so if I've done something wrong, or if I'm late to the party just say and I'll delete my comment.

Snoke stomps on his own. This is bordering on mismatch. Let's first assess Rey and then Snoke by comparing to Rey. At the end of the Last Jedi, Rey lifts several massive boulders with ease, she's hardly concentrating; Yoda himself has strained to lift objects that would weigh arguably less than a single one of the boulders (e.g. Luke's ship), this puts Rey's telekinesis orders of magnitude above Yoda's. Rey is said to be Kylo Ren's equal who is of the Skywalker blood line and one of the strongest naturally gifted force users in the entire series, pair this with years of training and Kylo should already be comparable to Dooku himself. In short, Rey is already above Dooku in force abilities (although certainly not in lightsaber combat), and Snoke toyed with her. Snoke breaks through Dooku's force shield with ease and crushes him before Dooku can draw his lightsaber.

The paretorian guards together were nearly a match for Kylo and Rey so the guards alone should prove a challenge Dooku. The guards vs Dooku is a fair fight, and the outcome is unclear, but adding Snoke this becomes a stomp.

No Caption Provided

Dooku performs Rey's feat with the same level of swag

Yoda has moved mountain-sized creatures hardly concentrating lol

at Kylo being on par with Dooku in terms of lightsaber dueling. Not even gonna argue. Dooku being in an entirely different tier than Kylo should be obvious.

The guards would be fodder for Dooku

No Caption Provided

Not to mention force lightning capable of striking multiple opponents at once and severely hurting even the strongest of force users

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#67 Edited by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: Yeah, that statement is essentially meaningless given that he has nothing to show for it. In fact, his on-screen feats seem to go against the very notion of him being one of the most powerful combatants. There are many SW characters who could defeat him based on-screen feats.

Even if we except him as one of the most powerful combatants, it is meaningless considering he doesn't know how to utilize that power. Snoke remarks in the film that his raw untamed power is a waste.

What? Surely you jest. Even if Kylo was the worst lightsaber duelist who ever lived, he's telekinetically equal to someone who cleared a small cave's worth of boulders while visibly relaxed and without strain.

I'm not jesting. You're acting as if Fisto > Kylo Ren is an unpopular opinion. Sure, he might be better than Kit-Fisto with the force but for the majority of the time he'd lose to a dueliest of that caliber. Put him against fighters like Ashoka, Maul, Fisto and 8-9/10 times he loses. His light-saber skills are utter garbage in comparison to those fighters, having raw and untamed power does not negate that.

Having that force-power isn't much use if you can't use it against an opponent. Where the hell was the use of this force when him and Rey fought the guards? As soon as they fought semi-competent duelists its as if they.....struggle to apply the force to combat.

He has also shown to be able to cave room's/buildings in on people in the midst of combat, when he KO'ed Luke. He'd blow them to piece with the Force.

  • In the context of that scene, Luke had just realized with shame the consequences of igniting his saber. He wasn't trying to fight with Kylo so I wouldn't call it ''combat'' considering we see Luke peading with Kylo to not go through with what he's doing. Kylo then collapses the hut on Luke. Kylo saw it coming, Luke did not
  • Furthermore, from what we can see the hut was pretty small

Just to correct what Snoke was saying. His words were that he fears Kylo has too much of his father's heart in him, and when Kylo rebukes that he killed Han, Snoke retorts that the act "split your spirit to the bone", left him "unbalanced", all to the degree that he was beaten Rey. He was calling out Kylo's closeness to the light which is evident by how much killing Han hindered him. He wasn't scolding him for a lack of skill, but an abundance of compassion.

I don't know what you're getting at here. I'm aware that he scolds Kylo for being tempted by the light, but that has nothing to do with what I said. Snoke still says to him that he was ''bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber'' -- the fact that Kylo was tempted by the light and has his father's heart has nothing to do with losing to Rey. He hesitated when killing his father, but after killing him we see that he is bloodlusted against Finn and Rey. Even if he was emotionally conflicted after the act, that is no excuse for not being able to defeat a girl who has never held a light-saber. That conflict doesn't suddenly make one incapable of killing.

There's no real way to excuse Kylo of that showing if Snoke is calling attention to the fact that she's never held one before.

If Kylo was much superior to Rey with combat skill, then he would have defeated the guards much quicker than she did. But as we saw in that scene, he was pretty much equal to her in light-saber skill too (given that they did not use the force against these guards, for some reason). That's a terrible showing on his part.

And analyzing choreography in movies is ridiculous.

I realize that choreography changes with time and technology, my point is that the films canon acknowledges that Rey is not really skilled with a light-saber. She only trains herself with the light-saber and we see that Snoke considers losing to her as a poor showing from Kylo.

Maul, Jinn and Kenobi would be the worst fighters in the world if you put any level of analysis in their TPM fight scene.

What?

The choreography in that duel is among the best of the Star Wars saga.

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#68 Posted by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

@trust_this_786: Completely forgot about that Dooku feat. I knew this Rey boulder feat was being wanked.

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#69 Posted by ParagonNate (4638 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@wollfmyth209:

Two of those Jedi are unquantifiable.

Two of them may be, but Kit-Fisto >>> Rey or Kylo. Sidious killed him with ease.

But.....Eeth Koth and Saesee Tiin have feats? They are hardly unquantifiable

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#70 Posted by Frozen (21133 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Well that's why I said they 'may' be. If they're not unquantifiable then that's good, but I wasn't aware of their feats so I didn't make any claim regarding them.

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#71 Edited by AlphaQ (6356 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen:

Yeah, that statement is essentially meaningless given that he has nothing to show for it. In fact, his on-screen feats seem to go against the very notion of him being one of the most powerful combatants. There are many SW characters who could defeat him based on-screen feats.

His feats go against that notion? How so? If you're referring to a lack of feats, remember that absence of feats isn't proof of absence of abilities to perform feats. A perfectly featless character could be given the accolade and a positive argument against the accolade would have to be made to disregard. So, in a positive sense, how can we debunk that accolade?

Even if we except him as one of the most powerful combatants, it is meaningless considering he doesn't know how to utilize that power. Snoke remarks in the film that his raw untamed power is a waste.

He states that Kylo wasn't as much as he could be - a reborn Vader. But I don't see how him not being as much as he could be and him being one of the best fighters in history are contradictory claims. He's one of the most powerful, even though he isn't all that he could be.

I'm not jesting. You're acting as if Fisto > Kylo Ren is an unpopular opinion.

An appeal to consensus?

Sure, he might be better than Kit-Fisto with the force but for the majority of the time he'd lose to a dueliest of that caliber. Put him against fighters like Ashoka, Maul, Fisto and 8-9/10 times he loses. His light-saber skills are utter garbage in comparison to those fighters, having raw and untamed power does not negate that.

Having that force-power isn't much use if you can't use it against an opponent. Where the hell was the use of this force when him and Rey fought the guards? As soon as they fought semi-competent duelists its as if they.....struggle to apply the force to combat.

I wasn't referring to your claim that he's inferior to Fisto when I asked if you were joking. I was referring to your claim that he would lose to an average Republic era Jedi.

We can't say he struggled if we never saw him try in the first place. Same way a lot of characters never try to use certain abilities that should let them stomp. Regardless, in the same way I'm sure you would respond that the Praetorian Guards have no feats to make Rey and Kylo defeated them an impressive feat, it is equally true that they have no anti-feats and established upper limits that you can use having issues with them as an anti-feat for Kylo and Rey. For all we know they are exceptional fighters, and calling them "semi-competent duelists" would require positive evidence and not a mere lack of feats.

  • In the context of that scene, Luke had just realized with shame the consequences of igniting his saber. He wasn't trying to fight with Kylo so I wouldn't call it ''combat'' considering we seeing Luke peading with Kylo to not go through with what he's doing. Kylo then collapses the hut on Luke. Kylo saw it coming, Luke did not
  • Furthermore, from what we can see the hut was pretty small

Sure, I don't think the feat is impressive in any way from scaling off Luke other than him being able to generate enough force to KO Luke. But it is important in a combat sense since Kylo believed Luke to be legitimately trying to kill him so Kylo still reacted and operated as quickly as he would in an actual combat situation, even if Luke didn't. It also shows an inclination to abuse his Force power.

I guess. But it was clearly imploded with a lot of force since we see it implode quickly even though Luke is shown talking in slow motion so the debris was moving fairly fast.

I don't know what you're getting at here.

Snoke uses Kylo's loss to Rey as evidence for his light-side tendencies because he could only have lost to Rey if he was hindered by Han's murder. Kylo losing to Rey is evidence in itself that he was hindered.

I'm aware that he scolds Kylo for being tempted by the light, but that has nothing to do with what I said. Snoke still says to him that he was ''bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber'' -- the fact that Kylo was tempted by the light and has his father's heart has nothing to do with losing to Rey. He hesitated when killing his father, but after killing him we see that he is bloodlusted against Finn and Rey.

No, it is stated in several sources that Kylo's physical and mental injuries were what allowed Rey to win. This is from the same source I referenced earlier. First of all there is Snoke saying Kylo's spirit was split to the bone and that he was unbalanced.

Rey gave Ren a sound beating, but only because Ren was already injured and thrown off his game. If they would have met in combat when Ren was at full health and had complete control over the Force, I don’t believe Rey would have been able to fight him off.

Stunned by his own action, Kylo Ren fell to this knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened.”

-The Force Awakens Novelization

Also, several sources listed him as being hindered by the bowcaster shot (which, considering its feats of killing Stormtroopers just from its shockwaves should've outright killed him several times over).

“Amid the rising bedlam and confusion, Kylo Ren struggled to stand.”

Taken from The Force Awakens novelization

“Before she could fire, Ren raised a hand, halting her. She strained against him, her anger giving her strength. But she couldn’t fire. He was struggling also, against her newly discovered ability, as well as the wound inflicted by Chewbacca’s bowcaster.”

Taken from The Force Awakens novelization

“Chewbacca’s quarrel had burned a hole through his robes and shattered the armor around his torso. From the looks of it, he was wounded badly.”

Taken from The Force Awakens junior novelization

“The hilt wobbled in the snow. Pulling it through the Force proved more strenuous than it should. The pain of Ren’s wound clouded his concentration.”

Taken from The Force Awakens junior novelization

And he wasn't bloodlusted against Rey and Finn. He was toying with Finn and ended the fight as soon as he got serious, in one move in both the comic and movie (though minimally longer in the book). He also showed that he wanted to spare Rey and recruit her as an apprentice, and Snoke earlier accused him of being compassionate towards Rey when he found out she was able to resist him telepathically. Definitely not bloodlusted, it was ever stated Rey herself had more anger than he did, and she wasn't even willing to kill him.

There's no real way to excuse Kylo of that showing if Snoke is calling attention to the fact that she's never held one before.

There is a heap of context and Rey is clearly a freak. It's outright stated that he would've won if not for the context, in fact it is an impressive feat he survived all the physical and mental trauma at all, never mind fought after it. Snoke didn't understand that extent of Rey's power, all he knew was that she was extremely powerful and gifted. He didn't know she had the potential to be Ren's equal in the Force, he stated earlier he assumed that would be Luke.

If Kylo was much superior to Rey with combat skill, then he would have defeated the guards much quicker than she did. But as we saw in that scene, he was pretty much equal to her in light-saber skill (given that they did not use the force against these guards, for some reason). That's a terrible showing on his part.

Rey fought less Guards at a time than Kylo did and got tagged and did worse overall by a significant degree. She was struggling and tagged at several stage with one, he was fighting three and only got caught in a hold at the last Guard (who presumably was waiting for someone to attack Kylo once he was immobilized).

Anyway it is impossible to be a bad showing for Kylo, here's why. The Guards only showing is giving Kylo and Rey issues. Rey's only showings are beating a Kylo with heavy context and beating the Guards with effort. Kylo's only showing are beating the Guards with effort but better doing better than Rey did. Well, excluding his killing of the Order. But anyway, nowhere is an upper or lower limit established on the dueling skill of these characters. They could be at any level, since absence of feats isn't absence of power. But since there is evidence that Kylo is incredibly skilled via accolades, Rey isn't too far behind, and the Guards gave them issues then the conclusion should be that they're all skilled fighters. And it would make ways more sense for the Guards, who are Snoke's sole martial means of protection, to be very high tier fodder, at least superior to Magnaguards since he could've easily acquired them if he wished.

I realize that choreography changes with time and technology, my point is that the films canon acknowledges that Rey is not really skilled with a light-saber.

That is true, but that is not what I was getting at. We can't look at a character and say "woah, Vader is a very awkward and predictable fighter" or "wow, Maul sure does waster a lot of movement doing those flips". Because the movie makers aren't trying to create realistically choreographed fights that we can analyze. Unless you have statements that they were trying to show Rey as being unskilled, you can't just look at her and claim "yeah, very unskilled" because that'd allow all sorts of subjective criticisms to be taken as valid too.

Even just as an example Nick Gilliard (the guy who did the prequels), I believe, was stated by people who work with him that he tries to model a characters every movement after their emotions and feelings rather than what is actually effective. For all we know Rey "swinging her lightsaber around aimlessly" was too show her battle ferocity (or how she let out a warcry when decapitating a Guard). Personally I think Kylo, for instance, is probably choreographed to fight like Vader using broad and powerful strikes to overpower his opponents but even though loads of people also criticized him as "sloppy" and "unskilled" when TFA came out they were proven wrong when his skill and tactical thinking was acknowledged recently when he was shown being able to plan his fight with Luke ahead of time when the two of them are subtly shifting their footing and weight to counter the other. Just like Maul and Obi-Wan were stated to plan their duel ahead of time (and that that was actually a sign of their growth in skill, implying it takes a lot of skill).

What?

The choreography in that duel is among the best of the Star Wars saga.

That is, you can't call a character unskilled because they look unskilled. Rey looked aimless to you, but virtually every fictional martial artist has shit skill if you take the choreography as literal interpretations of their skill. Take a look, this video spoofs that fight and shows how virtually every blow would missed, but I can't say Jinn, Kenobi and Maul have bad aim because of choreography.

Loading Video...

There are other examples like Bane's thugs in the Dark Knight being stated to be skilled killers but having terrible skill on-screen or Arthur Dayne fighting Ned Stark and his men in Game of Thrones and even though they are supposed to be the best knights in the world I've seen real life breakdown videos by swordsmen that show how they are ridiculously poor by real life standards.

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#72 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice to see Dooku getting respect.

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#73 Edited by RKelly (250 posts) - - Show Bio

Rey still has no training and already she's an equal to Kylo/ahead in TK by feats and was taking out those skilled guards. I'm not exaggerating when I say that if she was trained since she was a child, she could probably stomp Yoda and Sidious at the same time, ok maybe slight exaggeration but still

Look what she accomplished when her formal training amounts to meditating for sixty seconds, she isn't just a Mary Sue, she's the Mary Sue, you know when you write a protagonist you're supposed to give them a flaw of some kind, she has no freaking flaw

Anyway, on topic, by portrayal and implication, Snoke is ahead of Dooku in the force but by feats, Dooku is better and he mows through those guards as if they weren't there then puts a lightsaber through Snoke's heart

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#74 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@rkelly said:

Rey still has no training and already she's an equal to Kylo/ahead in TK by feats and was taking out those skilled guards. I'm not exaggerating when I say that if she was trained since she was a child, she could probably stomp Yoda and Sidious at the same time, ok maybe slight exaggeration but still

Look what she accomplished when her formal training amounts to meditating for sixty seconds, she isn't just a Mary Sue, she's the Mary Sue, you know when you write a protagonist you're supposed to give them a flaw of some kind, she has no freaking flaw

Anyway, on topic, by portrayal and implication, Snoke is ahead of Dooku in the force but by feats, Dooku is better and he mows through those guards as if they weren't there then puts a lightsaber through Snoke's heart

LOL

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#75 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

@aka_aka_aka_ak said:

I'm new here so if I've done something wrong, or if I'm late to the party just say and I'll delete my comment.

Snoke stomps on his own. This is bordering on mismatch. Let's first assess Rey and then Snoke by comparing to Rey. At the end of the Last Jedi, Rey lifts several massive boulders with ease, she's hardly concentrating; Yoda himself has strained to lift objects that would weigh arguably less than a single one of the boulders (e.g. Luke's ship), this puts Rey's telekinesis orders of magnitude above Yoda's. Rey is said to be Kylo Ren's equal who is of the Skywalker blood line and one of the strongest naturally gifted force users in the entire series, pair this with years of training and Kylo should already be comparable to Dooku himself. In short, Rey is already above Dooku in force abilities (although certainly not in lightsaber combat), and Snoke toyed with her. Snoke breaks through Dooku's force shield with ease and crushes him before Dooku can draw his lightsaber.

The paretorian guards together were nearly a match for Kylo and Rey so the guards alone should prove a challenge Dooku. The guards vs Dooku is a fair fight, and the outcome is unclear, but adding Snoke this becomes a stomp.

No Caption Provided

Dooku performs Rey's feat with the same level of swag

Yoda has moved mountain-sized creatures hardly concentrating lol

at Kylo being on par with Dooku in terms of lightsaber dueling. Not even gonna argue. Dooku being in an entirely different tier than Kylo should be obvious.

The guards would be fodder for Dooku

No Caption Provided

Not to mention force lightning capable of striking multiple opponents at once and severely hurting even the strongest of force users

I tend to subconsciously disregard Rebels/Clone Wars feats as they're totally inconsistent with the films and always massively exaggerate compared to the films. However, what you linked is totally valid and something I had completely forgotten and so that's completely fair enough, I'll now take that feat on board.

I didn't mean to imply that Kylo was near Dooku in terms of duelling alone. There's no question that Dooku was a tier above Kylo in duelling, but Kylo is stronger in the force; of the Skywalker bloodline with decades of the best training he could have received.

I'm still not convinced he beats the Guards easily. Let's not underestimate just how much of an advantage fighting along side someone else is when fighting 'fodder'. Rey and Kylo had half the load each and were able to assist each other, Dooku has twice as many to beat and must work at least twice as hard for it, I don't see how he deals with a 5 guards coming at him from different angles.

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#76 Edited by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@aka_aka_aka_ak said:
@trust_this_786 said:
@aka_aka_aka_ak said:

I'm new here so if I've done something wrong, or if I'm late to the party just say and I'll delete my comment.

Snoke stomps on his own. This is bordering on mismatch. Let's first assess Rey and then Snoke by comparing to Rey. At the end of the Last Jedi, Rey lifts several massive boulders with ease, she's hardly concentrating; Yoda himself has strained to lift objects that would weigh arguably less than a single one of the boulders (e.g. Luke's ship), this puts Rey's telekinesis orders of magnitude above Yoda's. Rey is said to be Kylo Ren's equal who is of the Skywalker blood line and one of the strongest naturally gifted force users in the entire series, pair this with years of training and Kylo should already be comparable to Dooku himself. In short, Rey is already above Dooku in force abilities (although certainly not in lightsaber combat), and Snoke toyed with her. Snoke breaks through Dooku's force shield with ease and crushes him before Dooku can draw his lightsaber.

The paretorian guards together were nearly a match for Kylo and Rey so the guards alone should prove a challenge Dooku. The guards vs Dooku is a fair fight, and the outcome is unclear, but adding Snoke this becomes a stomp.

No Caption Provided

Dooku performs Rey's feat with the same level of swag

Yoda has moved mountain-sized creatures hardly concentrating lol

at Kylo being on par with Dooku in terms of lightsaber dueling. Not even gonna argue. Dooku being in an entirely different tier than Kylo should be obvious.

The guards would be fodder for Dooku

No Caption Provided

Not to mention force lightning capable of striking multiple opponents at once and severely hurting even the strongest of force users

I tend to subconsciously disregard Rebels/Clone Wars feats as they're totally inconsistent with the films and always massively exaggerate compared to the films. However, what you linked is totally valid and something I had completely forgotten and so that's completely fair enough, I'll now take that feat on board.

I didn't mean to imply that Kylo was near Dooku in terms of duelling alone. There's no question that Dooku was a tier above Kylo in duelling, but Kylo is stronger in the force; of the Skywalker bloodline with decades of the best training he could have received.

I'm still not convinced he beats the Guards easily. Let's not underestimate just how much of an advantage fighting along side someone else is when fighting 'fodder'. Rey and Kylo had half the load each and were able to assist each other, Dooku has twice as many to beat and must work at least twice as hard for it, I don't see how he deals with a 5 guards coming at him from different angles.

No Caption Provided
Loading Video...
Loading Video...

This vid shows him taking on 3 extremely skilled lightsaber duelists coming from three directions he is also blindfolded

Second vid shows him casually taking Anikain and Obi Wan coming from opposite directions both of which are high council tier also deflecting blaster bolts from at least a dozen pykes and deals with them with a force push.

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#77 Posted by TG_15 (335 posts) - - Show Bio

@trust_this_786 said:
@aka_aka_aka_ak said:

I'm new here so if I've done something wrong, or if I'm late to the party just say and I'll delete my comment.

Snoke stomps on his own. This is bordering on mismatch. Let's first assess Rey and then Snoke by comparing to Rey. At the end of the Last Jedi, Rey lifts several massive boulders with ease, she's hardly concentrating; Yoda himself has strained to lift objects that would weigh arguably less than a single one of the boulders (e.g. Luke's ship), this puts Rey's telekinesis orders of magnitude above Yoda's. Rey is said to be Kylo Ren's equal who is of the Skywalker blood line and one of the strongest naturally gifted force users in the entire series, pair this with years of training and Kylo should already be comparable to Dooku himself. In short, Rey is already above Dooku in force abilities (although certainly not in lightsaber combat), and Snoke toyed with her. Snoke breaks through Dooku's force shield with ease and crushes him before Dooku can draw his lightsaber.

The paretorian guards together were nearly a match for Kylo and Rey so the guards alone should prove a challenge Dooku. The guards vs Dooku is a fair fight, and the outcome is unclear, but adding Snoke this becomes a stomp.

No Caption Provided

Dooku performs Rey's feat with the same level of swag

Yoda has moved mountain-sized creatures hardly concentrating lol

at Kylo being on par with Dooku in terms of lightsaber dueling. Not even gonna argue. Dooku being in an entirely different tier than Kylo should be obvious.

The guards would be fodder for Dooku

t to mention force lightning capable of striking multiple opponents at once and severely hurting even the strongest of force users
t to mention force lightning capable of striking multiple opponents at once and severely hurting even the strongest of force users

I didn't mean to imply that Kylo was near Dooku in terms of duelling alone. There's no question that Dooku was a tier above Kylo in duelling, but Kylo is stronger in the force; of the Skywalker bloodline with decades of the best training he could have received.

I'm still not convinced he beats the Guards easily. Let's not underestimate just how much of an advantage fighting along side someone else is when fighting 'fodder'. Rey and Kylo had half the load each and were able to assist each other, Dooku has twice as many to beat and must work at least twice as hard for it, I don't see how he deals with a 5 guards coming at him from different angles.

Being in the skywalker bloodline does not guarantee an 'I win' for an encounter. Dooku owned anakin and obi wan and yet still owned them in ep 3 before anakin became enraged. Nightbrothers are enchanted by magic, giving them strength. Dooku handled them with little difficulty. The VD even states hitting a guard won't kill them, but it will hurt a lot. A stab definitely kills. Resisting lightsabers and blasters are not the same thing as resisting lightning that outright kills anyone not adept with the force.

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#78 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg_15 said:
@aka_aka_aka_ak said:
@trust_this_786 said:
@aka_aka_aka_ak said:

I'm new here so if I've done something wrong, or if I'm late to the party just say and I'll delete my comment.

Snoke stomps on his own. This is bordering on mismatch. Let's first assess Rey and then Snoke by comparing to Rey. At the end of the Last Jedi, Rey lifts several massive boulders with ease, she's hardly concentrating; Yoda himself has strained to lift objects that would weigh arguably less than a single one of the boulders (e.g. Luke's ship), this puts Rey's telekinesis orders of magnitude above Yoda's. Rey is said to be Kylo Ren's equal who is of the Skywalker blood line and one of the strongest naturally gifted force users in the entire series, pair this with years of training and Kylo should already be comparable to Dooku himself. In short, Rey is already above Dooku in force abilities (although certainly not in lightsaber combat), and Snoke toyed with her. Snoke breaks through Dooku's force shield with ease and crushes him before Dooku can draw his lightsaber.

The paretorian guards together were nearly a match for Kylo and Rey so the guards alone should prove a challenge Dooku. The guards vs Dooku is a fair fight, and the outcome is unclear, but adding Snoke this becomes a stomp.

No Caption Provided

Dooku performs Rey's feat with the same level of swag

Yoda has moved mountain-sized creatures hardly concentrating lol

at Kylo being on par with Dooku in terms of lightsaber dueling. Not even gonna argue. Dooku being in an entirely different tier than Kylo should be obvious.

The guards would be fodder for Dooku

t to mention force lightning capable of striking multiple opponents at once and severely hurting even the strongest of force users
t to mention force lightning capable of striking multiple opponents at once and severely hurting even the strongest of force users

I didn't mean to imply that Kylo was near Dooku in terms of duelling alone. There's no question that Dooku was a tier above Kylo in duelling, but Kylo is stronger in the force; of the Skywalker bloodline with decades of the best training he could have received.

I'm still not convinced he beats the Guards easily. Let's not underestimate just how much of an advantage fighting along side someone else is when fighting 'fodder'. Rey and Kylo had half the load each and were able to assist each other, Dooku has twice as many to beat and must work at least twice as hard for it, I don't see how he deals with a 5 guards coming at him from different angles.

Being in the skywalker bloodline does not guarantee an 'I win' for an encounter. Dooku owned anakin and obi wan and yet still owned them in ep 3 before anakin became enraged. Nightbrothers are enchanted by magic, giving them strength. Dooku handled them with little difficulty. The VD even states hitting a guard won't kill them, but it will hurt a lot. A stab definitely kills. Resisting lightsabers and blasters are not the same thing as resisting lightning that outright kills anyone not adept with the force.

Not to mention force push or choke. Dooku even tosses aside 3 force-sensitive nightsisters with little effort with his force lightning

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#79 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

People are really lowballing Snoke and his guards here. Snoke is most likely stronger than Dooku in the force, though since he has a lack of combat feats and no lightsaber I would say Dooku wins a 1v1 based off of feats. However with his guards Snoke should definitely win. His guard can block lightsaber strikes and are skilled enough to pressure Kylo and Rey. With all of them piling on Dooku and protecting Snoke as Snoke tries to tk Dooku, the team should overwhelm him.

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#80 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

People are really lowballing Snoke and his guards here. Snoke is most likely stronger than Dooku in the force, though since he has a lack of combat feats and no lightsaber I would say Dooku wins a 1v1 based off of feats. However with his guards Snoke should definitely win. His guard can block lightsaber strikes and are skilled enough to pressure Kylo and Rey. With all of them piling on Dooku and protecting Snoke as Snoke tries to tk Dooku, the team should overwhelm him.

Dooku can easily defeat them with a force push or force lightning

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#81 Posted by Superhero24 (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke is for sure more powerful in the force than Dooku. Connecting two minds together by the force from different points in the galaxy is superior to anything Dooku has done before that I remember from canon.

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#82 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke is for sure more powerful in the force than Dooku. Connecting two minds together by the force from different points in the galaxy is superior to anything Dooku has done before that I remember from canon.

his advantage in the force is not givin him the win. Snoke has no lightsaber dueling or standing feats. If Dooku comes close to him he is dead. Not to mention he has no resistance to force lightning either

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#83 Posted by Superhero24 (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

@superhero24 said:

Snoke is for sure more powerful in the force than Dooku. Connecting two minds together by the force from different points in the galaxy is superior to anything Dooku has done before that I remember from canon.

his advantage in the force is not givin him the win. Snoke has no lightsaber dueling or standing feats. If Dooku comes close to him he is dead. Not to mention he has no resistance to force lightning either

He might be able to just manhandle Dooku like Rey. Rey's raw strength in the force was insane, yet Snoke could still stomp/ragdoll her like nothing. His guards were also pretty skilled in dueling. Dooku is for sure superior to Kylo and Rey in dueling though. He could defeat both of them at the same time in dueling.

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#84 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@trust_this_786 said:
@superhero24 said:

Snoke is for sure more powerful in the force than Dooku. Connecting two minds together by the force from different points in the galaxy is superior to anything Dooku has done before that I remember from canon.

his advantage in the force is not givin him the win. Snoke has no lightsaber dueling or standing feats. If Dooku comes close to him he is dead. Not to mention he has no resistance to force lightning either

He might be able to just manhandle Dooku like Rey. Rey's raw strength in the force was insane, yet Snoke could still stomp/ragdoll her like nothing. His guards were also pretty skilled in dueling. Dooku is for sure superior to Kylo and Rey in dueling though. He could defeat both of them at the same time in dueling.

Dooku has already replicated Rey's boulder feat with the same amount of swag (scroll up)

Again Snoke has no force lightning resistance feats like most Sith do

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#85 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku can easily defeat them with a force push or force lightning

Yet Kylo who should of easily defeated them with freezing them with the force did not. There is a good chance they are somewhat resistant to the force.

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#86 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@trust_this_786 said:

Dooku can easily defeat them with a force push or force lightning

Yet Kylo who should of easily defeated them with freezing them with the force did not. There is a good chance they are somewhat resistant to the force.

Kylo has no battle experience. Dooku has plenty

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#87 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@trust_this_786:

Kylo has no battle experience.

This isn't true at all. He was trained by Luke and Snoke, killed many of Luke's jedi, had missions for the first order, fought Rey, ect.

Why Kylo doesn't have nearly as much experience as Dooku, you are clearly downplaying him.

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#88 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16808 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Um, Agen and Saesee have feats in the EU, not in Canon.

Online
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#89 Posted by TG_15 (335 posts) - - Show Bio

There's no evidence to suggest the Praetorian Guards are Force-resistant, or force-sensitive. I read the visual dictionary and all of its categories, no proof. Seems to me Rey and kylo didn't start with the force at all, or if the guards have temporary plot armor.

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#91 Posted by lubub55 (12941 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol.

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#93 Posted by Uallhoes (296 posts) - - Show Bio

Tyranus loses in seconds

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#94 Posted by TheVivas (19494 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: They’re not resistant to the Force at all. Kylo didn’t freeze them because it wasn’t practical and wouldn’t have really helped him. It would have taken too much concentration to keep one person frozen while he’s fighting off another or two other Guards, and being Snoke’s apprentice should give him a great idea of how deadly they are.

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#95 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice to see Dooku getting respect.

It is nice.

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#96 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: That makes sense, but if Kylo couldn't stop them with the force Dooku probably wouldn't do much better. Kylo really isn't a slouch when it comes the the force. He isn't Dooku level, but I really don't think he is a crazy ways off either. He just doesn't have the knowledge and experience.

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#97 Posted by deactivated-5a563432ea67a (135 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke takes this.

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#98 Posted by ParagonNate (4638 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: That makes sense, but if Kylo couldn't stop them with the force Dooku probably wouldn't do much better. Kylo really isn't a slouch when it comes the the force. He isn't Dooku level, but I really don't think he is a crazy ways off either. He just doesn't have the knowledge and experience.

Kylo could have stopped one with the Force no problem, they've done literally nothing to show otherwise. And Dooku has better feats with the Force than Kylo, therefor he can stomp the guards with the Force.

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#99 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate:

Kylo could have stopped one with the Force no problem, they've done literally nothing to show otherwise.

Probably, but this isn't Dooku vs one guard so it is kind of irrelevant here. If Kylo couldn't proplery use the force in a 1v4 I doubt Dooku would fare much better in a 1v8.

And Dooku has better feats with the Force than Kylo, therefor he can stomp the guards with the Force.

That logic is kind of screwy. Ya he has better feats than Kylo, but that doesn't automatically mean he can stomp someone Kylo didn't. If Kylo force stomped the guards or came close to it, then that logic would make sense, as Dooku should be able to replicate Kylo's feats, but if Kylo didn't preform the feat that doesn't automatically mean Dooku can as well. All it means is Dooku has a better chance.

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#100 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18075 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

Nice to see Dooku getting respect.

It is nice.

A little too much imo. Actually it's not so much Dooku getting to much respect, it's just nobody respects the new movies.