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#1 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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VS

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Sidious sense a disturbance in the force, and sends his apprentice to deal with it. All five guard are waiting with Snoke behind on the throne. Who would win?

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#2 Posted by Farkam (11983 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku, because i'm biased.

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#3 Posted by Sy8000 (34967 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like Snoke is more powerful than Dooku but there's no proof he can fight at all. The guards are fodder.

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#4 Posted by TheNotoriousVig (62 posts) - - Show Bio

We may never know how skilled Snoke really was :(

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#5 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5548 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku stomps. Legends version especially.

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#6 Posted by Chaos239 (5081 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't Snoke confirmed > Sidious?

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#7 Posted by ParagonNate (4605 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos239 said:

Wasn't Snoke confirmed > Sidious?

Due to having a superior amount of resources at his disposal IIRC. The quote said nothing about Force power.

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#8 Posted by Chaos239 (5081 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: So wait, are they talking about Snoke and the First Order vs Sidious and the Empire or Snoke vs Sidious?

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#9 Edited by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku curbstomps. Snoke’s few feats are nothing that any xyz padawan cannot replicate

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#10 Posted by ParagonNate (4605 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos239: I think the way the statement is structured, the only way it makes sense is if it's comparing their power as of the Empire v the First Order

Richard, didn't Snoke generate lightning at one point? Also, padawans don't go around telepathically connecting people across a galaxy.

@richard96

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#11 Edited by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate:

Yes, he hit ren with a small bolt of lighting. A lot of Sith apprentices can replicate it.

“Also, padawans don't go around telepathically connecting people across a galaxy.”

True, but it is a pretty useless ability in a fight.

By hype, Snoke should be very powerful. But he lacks feats. Besides, he has not a great force sense given he wasn’t even able to sense ren moving the LightSaber near him

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#12 Posted by _KingofLatveria (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku curbstomps. Snoke’s few feats are nothing that any xyz padawan cannot replicate

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#13 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke is.....weird. he's implied to be extremely powerful, but his feats are lacking.

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#14 Posted by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke was effortlessly ragdolling Rey, who is Kylo's equal in TK, who has statements that he is one of the strongest combatents in the history of Star Wars, and the Praetorian Guards were giving Kylo and Rey trouble. I don't see how Dooku could defeat these guys.

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#15 Edited by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

Maul was described as one of the most powerful Sith ever, and he was still weaker than Dooku. Ren being one of the strongest combatants in the SW history means little. Kit Fisto was stated to be one of the best Jedi in history, and he is a joke in comparison to a Dooku or a maul. Kylo and Rey are jokes in comparison with Dooku as duelist, the red guards are non force sensitives fodder and they were giving hell to them. Not to mention, Dooku’s TK feats blow out of the water rey’s or snoke’s

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#16 Posted by deactivated-5b0845740eb0b (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

I feel like Snoke is more powerful than Dooku but there's no proof he can fight at all. The guards are fodder.

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#17 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@alphaq:

Maul was described as one of the most powerful Sith ever, and he was still weaker than Dooku. Ren being one of the strongest combatants in the SW history means little. Kit Fisto was stated to be one of the best Jedi in history, and he is a joke in comparison to a Dooku or a maul.

Yup. Hyperbole Accolades =/= Proof.

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#18 Posted by Killerwasp (17235 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku and the quote about snoke being equal to sidious is kind of silly not because they couldn't but I feel rich doesn't know what he's talking about

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#19 Edited by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz said:
@richard96 said:

@alphaq:

Maul was described as one of the most powerful Sith ever, and he was still weaker than Dooku. Ren being one of the strongest combatants in the SW history means little. Kit Fisto was stated to be one of the best Jedi in history, and he is a joke in comparison to a Dooku or a maul.

Yup. Hyperbole Accolades =/= Proof.

Maul and Kit Fisto have those accolades in Canon? I've only seen them in Legends. I mean, being worse than Dooku is hardly a bad showing, that guy is a beast, even Obi-Wan did shit against him in Canon and Anakin doesn't do too stellar most of the time either. And I wouldn't say Fisto is a joke compared to Maul (he might be to Dooku but that's more to do with Dooku being just that good) or at least there is no proof that he is.

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#20 Posted by MErulezall (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

Count Dooku.

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#21 Posted by TG_15 (326 posts) - - Show Bio

Legends Dooku wins.

How would the Magnaguards fare against the Praetorians?

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#22 Posted by EugenSavoyen (23 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku stomps.

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#23 Edited by ProteusXManRxis (4445 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

Dooku curbstomps. Snoke’s few feats are nothing that any xyz padawan cannot replicate

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#24 Posted by MasterSkywalker (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku has this battle.

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#25 Posted by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

The point is that general accolades like that are hardly a proof

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#26 Posted by zill0678 (2380 posts) - - Show Bio

dooku 6/10

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#27 Posted by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

The point is that general accolades like that are hardly a proof

Sure it is, they certainly have been in the past, where quotes about Republic Era characters are taken as legitimate. People all the time use quotes from Nick Gilliard establishing the dueling tiers, statements that Republic era Jedi are prime Jedi, that Sidious is the strongest Sith and many more. Until an actual argument can be made that any particular quote isn't true, then we accept it.

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#28 Posted by Gaoron (7862 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku easily

Online
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#29 Posted by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

The quote about sidious is good cause it establishes sidius is THE most powerful Sith ever, placing him above anyone else. But ren being ONE of the strongest combatants in SW history means sh!t. He is one of the strongest combatants compared to who? TPM kenobi was stated to be one of the best Jedi, and still a superior version of him had trouble with jango fett. If you want to use that kylo’s quote to say he can match Dooku or even soloing him, I laugh.

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#30 Edited by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@alphaq:

The quote about sidious is good cause it establishes sidius is THE most powerful Sith ever, placing him above anyone else. But ren being ONE of the strongest combatants in SW history means sh!t. He is one of the strongest combatants compared to who?

Difficult to say. A lot of the characters we see with great feats like Ventress have nowhere near as good accolades. I would say he'd beat Ventress level characters based off that quote, anyway. To say he'd beat people like ROTS Kenobi, Anakin or Dooku would be stretching it though.

TPM kenobi was stated to be one of the best Jedi, and still a superior version of him had trouble with jango fett.

That's more to do with Jedi in Canon being weaker than Legends tbh. Jedi in Canon consistently have trouble with Cad Bane, for instance. And even in Legends Boba Fett gave Mace issues as a teenager.

Also, quotes saying TPM Kenobi is one of the best in the verse in Canon?

If you want to use that kylo’s quote to say he can match Dooku or even soloing him, I laugh.

Nah, I don't think it is enough. Dooku isn't behind very many people in Star Wars, he should also be considered one of the best.

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#31 Edited by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

“Difficult to say. A lot of the characters we see with great feats like Ventress have nowhere near as good accolades. I would say he'd beat Ventress level characters based off that quote, anyway. ”

Strongly debatable, but yes, by hype kylo wins, but by feats ventress wrecks. This is why I hate new canon characters.

“And even in Legends Boba Fett gave Mace issues as a teenager.”

When has it happened?

“Also, quotes saying TPM Kenobi is one of the best in the verse in Canon?”

Gillard said. I don’t have the quote under my hands, but essentially he said Obi is a tier 7 as of TPM, and he said only the best Jedi are level 7.

“Nah, I don't think it is enough. Dooku isn't behind very many people in Star Wars, he should also be considered one of the best.”

Ok

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#32 Edited by shroudofsorrow (5548 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Legends Boba fought Mace in one of the young Boba Fett books. He also lost, and Mace was holding back.

@richard96 said:

@alphaq:

“Difficult to say. A lot of the characters we see with great feats like Ventress have nowhere near as good accolades. I would say he'd beat Ventress level characters based off that quote, anyway. ”

Strongly debatable, but yes, by hype kylo wins, but by feats ventress wrecks. This is why I hate new canon characters.

To be fair, it's not like Legends characters never got hyped before, and not all new Canon characters get hyped either. I actually like most of the new Canon characters, but that's besides the point.

To the matter of "Ventress has nowhere near as good accolades" that doesn't matter. She doesn't need accolades because her feats speak for themselves. Conversely, Kylo Ren's accolades, such as they are, are too vague to put him anywhere near either Legends or Disney Ventress until when or if he gets much better feats to reinforce the accolades.

And concerning this fight, Dooku still stomps.

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#33 Edited by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

“And even in Legends Boba Fett gave Mace issues as a teenager.”

When has it happened?

Here ya go.

And his pistol was aimed directly at Mace's chest.

"I've waited a long time for this, Jedi Windu - but I'm not waiting anymore!"

Boba fired. The flechette's missile tore through the air. A nanosecond later it burst open. Hundreds of deadly projectiles spun out.

Faster than thought, Mace Windu leaped aside. The missiles exploded against the wall.

"Who are you?" Mace Windu shouted.

Boba fired again. Another starburst of flechettes exploded through the room.

Again, the Jedi was too fast.

"On Geonosis, you murdered a warrior named Jango Fett," Boba said.

FFFFAAMM! He fired again!

"Jango Fett was my father."

"Your father?" Mace raced from the barrage of flechettes. "He had no son! Only clones - "

"He had me!" Boba lunged at Mace. The Jedi fell back, overwhelmed by the young man's rage and power. "And now I'll have you!"

KRACK!

A flechette smashed against Mace's shoulder. The Jedi reeled backward. His hand reached for his lightsaber. But before he could touch it Boba struck again, this time the other shoulder. And again!

KRACK! KRACK!

With each alternate blow the Jedi fell back. In a moment, Boba would have him pinioned against the wall. And then - he'd go for the kill!

"I had no choice!" Mace's voice was deep, unafraid. Without warning he leaped, springing past Boba as he drew his lightsaber. "Just as you're giving me no choice now!"

The lightsaber glowed deep violet. Its hum filled the room, and Mace Windu swung - and struck! PAM!

Boba staggered back. The lightsaber had skimmed his armor. He recovered immediately, darting off. Mace followed, his robes billowing behind him.

PAM!

The lightsaber struck again!

But this time Boba was ready. Or so he thought. Mace's violet blur sliced the flechette pistol cleanly out of his hand. Blinding indigo light flared as Mace Windu drew back, arm raised for another blow.

Before he could strike, Boba drew his dagger with his free hand and charged.

The dagger ripped through Mace's robes. The Jedi twisted, avoiding the blade.

But Boba's fist followed, smashing into the Jedi's ribs.

"Ah - !"

Mace staggered to one side. Before he could dodge, Boba was on him!

BAM!

Boba lunged the dagger at Mace's head - but the Jedi was too fast! He dropped and rolled, jumping to his feet. The lightsaber rose and fell - And struck.

"Agh!" Boba cried out as the glowing blade smashed against his shoulder. Pain arced through him. Blood seeped from the grievous wound.

"Surrender!" commanded Mace Windu. "Surrender, and I promise you'll receive fair treatment!"

"Surrender?" Boba hesitated, feigning doubt. Unseen he shoved the dagger into his belt, then reached for a cryo-ban grenade.

"You have my word," Mace continued.

"And you have my hatred!" Boba screamed. He fired the grenade! Mace leaped, seeming to fly above Boba's head.

BRRAAANG! Boba flung himself away from the freezing blast. Waves of numbing cold rushed past him as the cryo-blast absorbed heat. The cold could not penetrate Boba's body armor. But Mace Windu had no body armor. The Jedi stumbled, nearly falling as the frigid waves sapped him of energy. Boba picked up his flechette pistol. He towered above the fallen Jedi.He fired.

FAM! Blinding pain lanced Boba's arm as Mace Windu's Lightsaber struck.

"No!" Boba cried. In agony, Boba fell. He rolled, trying to get to his feet.

FAM! The lightsaber crashed against his head. Not even his helmet could absorb the blow. Boba shouted with pain and fury, striking blindly at the figure above him.

"I don't want to kill you," said Mace Windu grimly. "Surrender, or die."

"Never." He swung his dagger. The Jedi's weapon knocked the dagger blade aside.

"You leave me no choice!" Mace cried.

Boba stumbled to his feet. Blood streamed from his wounds. The dagger lay useless and out of reach. And his blasters were on Slave I. But he still had the saberdart. He slid his hand toward his utility belt. His fingers slipped into the familiar configuration of his palm shooter. The poisonous dart was loaded into it. He had only one shot. I won't miss this time. He raised his hand. Mace Windu was just meters away. Boba stared at the Jedi, summoning all his strength. All his hatred. His thumb pressed the trigger. The dart sang from the palm shooter like an enraged hornet. It spun, glittering, through the air, straight for Mace Windu's throat.

I got him! Boba's mind sang in triumph. Mace Windu flinched. His hand shot into the air. Between his fingers the saberdart shivered like a trapped insect.

"No!" groaned Boba. Mace Windu flung the deadly dart into the shadows. He stepped toward Boba, his lightsaber poised to strike. Boba Fett was cornered.

"This is my final offer of surrender," said the Jedi Master.

"No," said Boba in a low voice. He would never surrender. The Jedi took another step toward him. Boba thought of his friends back on Tatooine. Good-bye, Ygabba. Good-bye, Gab'borah. I'll miss you. He thought of his father, fighting until the very last. Boba lifted his head and stared fearlessly at Mace Windu.

"There are worse things than death," the bounty hunter said, raising his flechette pistol.

"There are," the Jedi replied in his powerful voice. "You are brave indeed, stranger. I would have spared your life. But now you leave me no choice - "

His raised his arms. The glowing light blade tore through the air.

"STOP!"

Boba Fett: Pursuit

“Also, quotes saying TPM Kenobi is one of the best in the verse in Canon?”

Gillard said. I don’t have the quote under my hands, but essentially he said Obi is a tier 7 as of TPM, and he said only the best Jedi are level 7.

After much searching I think I found the quote I think that you're referring to. I don't think that he ever says that being a 7 puts you as one of the best of the verse, or even one of the best Jedi.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom MenaceObi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

- Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

I saw this quote a few times on forums but couldn't find a really official quote, the source had been taken down. Anyway, TPM Kenobi isn't really a solid tier 7, he's more a borderline case it seems. Maybe Nick means he's a 6 usually but 7 when rage-amped. Oh, I also found Nick saying that Fisto is a Tier 7.

What is interesting is that I found this...

Loading Video...

Nick mentions that the difference between a 7 and an 8 or 9 is enormous, likening it to the Richter scale (a scale in which each level is ten times the last). Being a seven would put you massively beneath people like Obi Wan and Maul. The gap between the top characters in the verse is more significant than towards the bottom, which is why Yoda and Palps are so ridiculousl just from being nines. Kylo being one of the best in the verse's entire history should put him at high seven or low eight.

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#34 Posted by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

I agree with everything, except for the fact I hate every single character of the new canon LOL

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#35 Edited by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

“I saw this quote a few times on forums but couldn't find a really official quote, the source had been taken down. Anyway, TPM Kenobi isn't really a solid tier 7, he's more a borderline case it seems. Maybe Nick means he's a 6 usually but 7 when rage-amped. Oh, I also found Nick saying that Fisto is a Tier 7.”

True, this is the quote saying TPM Obi is a six or a seven (he is a 6 bordering on 7 in normal state and most likely a 7 while rage amped / focused). Gillard said in another quote that 8 and 9 levels are cheating, and the most skilled swordsman of the Jedi temple are level 7, like Fisto, koon, Shaak ti....

8 and 9 are very very high tiers, but 7 puts already you as one of the best swordsman ever, according to Gillard.

“Kylo being one of the best in the verse's entire history should put him at high seven or low eight.”

I would say more a low 7. This places him already as one of the best in history and it fits more with his feats (that remain very poor). His feats are widely below high 7’s like qui gon, koon or Fisto.

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#36 Posted by GallStonesSu (9 posts) - - Show Bio
@alphaq said:

Snoke was effortlessly ragdolling Rey, who is Kylo's equal in TK, who has statements that he is one of the strongest combatents in the history of Star Wars, and the Praetorian Guards were giving Kylo and Rey trouble. I don't see how Dooku could defeat these guys.

This answer. There is no way Dooku would be able to take all of them at the same time, not to mention contending with Snoke's force powers, which struck me as more impressive than Dooku's anyways.

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#37 Posted by WollfMyth209 (15910 posts) - - Show Bio

Legends Dooku wins. But Canon Dooku would probably be overwhelmed by Snoke's telepathic and telekinetic powers, alone.

The Praetorians offering nice distractions leads to his downfall. People need to stop sh!tting on ST characters just cause it's not "their Star Wars" anymore, and acutally look at context in play.

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#38 Posted by TheVivas (19127 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: People are shitting on Snoke because of how the character was treated, not just because “it’s not my Star Wars”. That’s the only reason I can think of for him being treated like this.

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#39 Edited by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

True, this is the quote saying TPM Obi is a six or a seven (he is a 6 bordering on 7 in normal state and most likely a 7 while rage amped / focused). Gillard said in another quote that 8 and 9 levels are cheating, and the most skilled swordsman of the Jedi temple are level 7, like Fisto, koon, Shaak ti....

8 and 9 are very very high tiers, but 7 puts already you as one of the best swordsman ever, according to Gillard.

I'm sorry, but I need a quote of this. I have seen no evidence at all that being a 7 necessitates being one of the best in the history of the verse (which includes the Rule of Two Sith unlike the inferior accolade "best in Jedi history") or that Fisto is one of the best and think you might be carrying quotes over from Legends. You might be able to argue that a 7, Kit Fisto, is one of the best. Not that every seven is one of the best. Like how all the strongest men in history are top class weightlifters but not all top class weightlifters are some of the strongest in history. That's be a logical fallacy.

You could use a quote of Fisto being one of the best in the verse to say Kylo's accolade isn't that impressive though.

Kylo being one of the best in the verse's entire history should put him at high seven or low eight.”

I would say more a low 7. This places him already as one of the best in history and it fits more with his feats (that remain very poor). His feats are widely below high 7’s like qui gon, koon or Fisto.

I want the proof low seven is best in history of the verse material.

His feats aren't poor by any means, he just doesn't have that many of them. I mean, how many of the people you listed could do as well as he did against the Praetorian Guards, who should logically be ahead of Magnaguards (since even random crime lords can acquire Magnaguards post-Purge and Snoke has more resources than anyone else in the verse ever had, as well as the most advanced technology based on the First Order's achievements like lightspeed tracking, the Starkiller Base and the Dreadnoughts which can kill entire fleets) and Jedi Knights (since Snoke would have his pick of the force sensitives of the galaxy now that the Jedi and Sith are gone, he had decades to train them, he has knowledge and training methodology from before the Purge, their gear is advantageous against lightsabers due to their uniqueness and lightsaber resistant armor and their synergy). How many of them could beat Rey and then hold his own against her when she was extra focused when they had their "spirit split to the bone" and injuries that should've killed him several times over? The same Rey who fought the Praetorian Guards not long after and was able to impress Luke and make him realize she was a special force sensitive just from her swinging her lightsaber around (which he didn't know beforehand IIRC since he was closed off from the Force, it was exclusively her skill that made him realize she was somebody special).

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#40 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: His feats aren't poor by any means,

I'm sorry, but they really are. He lost to an untrained girl in lightsaber combat and was wounded by Finn. Now, i know there were a lot of circumstances involved, but he still shouldn't have any business getting tagged by people who have never used a lightsaber before, especially considering lightsabers canonically require a lot of skill and practice to wield effectively.

he just doesn't have that many of them. I mean, how many of the people you listed could do as well as he did against the Praetorian Guards,

That feat wasn't half bad, but the Praetorian Guards are fearless fodder for now, so Kylo taking on 2, maximally 3 at a time with significant trouble doesnt really put him as anything above a low-mid 7.

who should logically be ahead of Magnaguards(since even random crime lords can acquire Magnaguards post-Purge and Snoke has more resources than anyone else in the verse ever had, as well as the most advanced technology based on the First Order's achievements like lightspeed tracking, the Starkiller Base and the Dreadnoughts which can kill entire fleets)

Magnaguards have far better feats, so no. Also, i really wouldn't try applying logic to these films, i mean, why did Palpatine still choose his royal guards when he could have had Magnaguards, or a new General Grievous to guard him?

and Jedi Knights (since Snoke would have his pick of the force sensitives of the galaxy now that the Jedi and Sith are gone, he had decades to train them, he has knowledge and training methodology from before the Purge, their gear is advantageous against lightsabers due to their uniqueness and lightsaber resistant armor and their synergy).

There's no way random guards are better than fully trained force sensitives, you'll need more and better proof than some baseless speculation about Snoke's efficiency.

How many of them could beat Rey and then hold his own against her when she was extra focused when they had their "spirit split to the bone" and injuries that should've killed him several times over?

All of them. Rey was fodder who didn't know how to use a lightsaber back then.

The same Rey who fought the Praetorian Guards not long after

This is just further proof of their incompetence. They managed to loose to an untrained girl despite having the numbers advantage, with it even being 2 on 1 at times.

and was able to impress Luke and make him realize she was a special force sensitive just from her swinging her lightsaber around (which he didn't know beforehand IIRC since he was closed off from the Force, it was exclusively her skill that made him realize she was somebody special).

He realised that when he taught her how to sense the force and felt the potential within her when she managed it extremely quickly and with great success.

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#41 Edited by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio
I'm sorry, but they really are. He lost to an untrained girl in lightsaber combat and was wounded by Finn. Now, i know there were a lot of circumstances involved, but he still shouldn't have any business getting tagged by people who have never used a lightsaber before, especially considering lightsabers canonically require a lot of skill and practice to wield effectively.

He had "his spirit split to the bone" by his murder of Han, had just been hit by a weapon that should have killed him several times over (just take a look at this it kills two stormtroopers just from its shockwaves whereas Kylo tanked a direct hit),

No Caption Provided

raced through a forest so that Finn and Rey (both of them are extremely fast since they could avoid stormtrooper's aim, Finn's training as one of the best stormtroopers and Rey's force sensitivity) were both outpaced to the degree he caught up on a huge head start and was still waiting for them before both those fights. And when he was fighting against Finn he was intentionally toying with him to feed off Finn's frustration, his performance against Finn was mere child's play for him, he only took a most superficial blow that didn't even break the skin and he only took that blow due to underestimating Finn and Finn tricking him by mimicing weakness. So hardly a low showing. When Kylo got serious Finn was stomped and in the movie and comic he was disarmed in one move.

Despite his fear, Finn raised the beam to defend himself. Ren lunged, struck-and Finn parried. Shards of light flew, illuminating the snow and the surrounding vegetation. Drawing back slightly, Ren considered his unexpectedly determined opponent, then resumed his assault with a vengeance.

Finn blocked him again and again, once letting the other man's beam slide against his own and harmlessly off to one side. He counterattacked, to no avail. The longer the contest continued, the stronger Ren seemed to become. It was as if he was enjoying the challenge. Feeding upon it.

At least, it appeared so until Finn parried, swung, and unexpectedly stabbed, the tip of his lightsaber beam grazing Ren's arm. That made it more than a challenge. Taking a step back, Ren reconsidered his opponent. When he closed the distance between them anew, it was with a purpose that had been previously lacking. Expecting an execution, he had found a contest. Now he had been touched. It was time for play to end.

Advancing relentlessly, he was driven by something that Finn could not even sense, far less counter. Still the ex-trooper fought back, until Ren landed a blow that cut across Finn's chest and sent the lightsaber flying from his hand. It landed in the snow six meters distant.

It was over.

Finn blocked and parried the first flurry of Ren's attacks. Ground snow melted as the tips of their blades swooshed low. Finn could not find an opening in Ren's defenses, despite the man's injury. Ren drove Finn back, seeming to draw strength from Finn's frustration. Training had taught Finn to bait an opponent into thinking he had the advantage. Finn parried weakly, then disengaged and stabbed. His blade tip sheared Ren's arm. It didn't do much more than sizzle his opponent's skin. But Ren backpedaled, reassessing Finn.

Holding the blue blade in front of him, Finn stared at Kylo Ren, ready for anything.

But he was not ready for the fury of the attack Ren launched at him. It was as if the previous back and forth had been child's play. Ren's swings flew at Finn fast and strong, pushing him back.

Ren's blade gashed open Finn's chest. Finn fell back, and the momentum of his last swing threw the lightsaber of Luke Skywalker well away from him. He saw the blue blade dissolve back into the hilt, and then his universe turned dark.

https://youtu.be/FjEtMRZ-cH0?t=46

Now for the Rey thing. It should be mentioned that he was holding back since he wanted her as an apprentice and had compassion for her (which Snoke accuses him of when Rey resists his interrogation), Rey was seemingly drawing power from her enhanced focus (kinda the Force Rage equivalent for Jedi, like Kenobi had when he fought Maul and Savage after his friend's death) or her rage (she was stated to have more anger than Kylo himself) though it is kinda ambiguous which and all the circumstances mentioned before. Anyway, Rey has shown to be a force prodigy due to her latter performance against Snoke's guards and her ability to impress Luke when practicing. She was also mentioned to have trained herself with a staff on Jaku which transferred over to lightsaber combat.

That feat wasn't half bad, but the Praetorian Guards are fearless fodder for now, so Kylo taking on 2, maximally 3 at a time with significant trouble doesnt really put him as anything above a low-mid 7.

Eh, I mean it depends. For all we know the Guards will be revealed to be ubber badasses equivalent to Jedi Masters but for now I guess they're really nothing more than decent fodder.

Magnaguards have far better feats, so no. Also, i really wouldn't try applying logic to these films, i mean, why did Palpatine still choose his royal guards when he could have had Magnaguards, or a new General Grievous to guard him?

Better feats, yes, but the Guards should be superior, I'll explain. First of all, Palpatine's Royal Guards were really only ceremonial, they weren't really a line of defense the Emperor was going to rely on. This is acknowledged by the director.

"The Emperor's guards were very formal, and you always got the sense that they could fight, but they didn't. They looked like they were more ceremonial, and you never really saw them in action. The Praetorians, my brief to Michael Kaplan was that those guys have to be more like samurai. They have to be built to move, and you have to believe that they could step forward and engage if they have to. They have to seem dangerous."―Rian Johnson[src]

Secondly, it is mentioned that Snoke is very physically frail, so he would need a martial defense if ever his Force powers failed him. I don't recall if Palpatine was ever stated to be physically weak like Snoke was (though he could well have been).

There's no way random guards are better than fully trained force sensitives, you'll need more and better proof than some baseless speculation about Snoke's efficiency.

Er, well I guess we'll need more info about them but since we know Snoke and the First Order employs force sensitives in the Knights of Ren and Luke's converted students I don't see why he wouldn't use some to guard him.

All of them. Rey was fodder who didn't know how to use a lightsaber back then.

Rey's clearly a freak. She was able to transfer her staff skills to the lightsaber, impressed Luke and was stated by Yoda to already have everything the Jedi's foundational texts could offer, which at least implies high level emotional mastery that has always been more important than formal training in the SW verse.

This is just further proof of their incompetence. They managed to loose to an untrained girl despite having the numbers advantage, with it even being 2 on 1 at times.

Considering Kylo's been training his whole life under Luke and Snoke and Rey kept up with him then it's a feat for them.

He realised that when he taught her how to sense the force and felt the potential within her when she managed it extremely quickly and with great success.

He actually was still closed off from the Force when he first started teaching her, she realizes what he had done because she couldn't sense him in the Force. Before that, I 95% sure, he didn't know she was someone special until her saw her train. That's what spiked his interest in her IIRC.

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#42 Posted by Richard96 (5573 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

“I'm sorry, but I need a quote of this. I have seen no evidence at all that being a 7 necessitates being one of the best in the history of the verse ”

I told you, Gillard said. I can check for the quote if you want. However, he said level 7 are the best Jedi in the temple.

Hittheassassin has already addressed many of your points about ren’s feats. They don’t put him as a 7. I can say he is a low 7 just thanks to the quote

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#43 Posted by GLCorps (145 posts) - - Show Bio

Are we talking Legends, Clone Wars or the movies Dooku ?

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#44 Posted by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq:

“I'm sorry, but I need a quote of this. I have seen no evidence at all that being a 7 necessitates being one of the best in the history of the verse ”

I told you, Gillard said. I can check for the quote if you want. However, he said level 7 are the best Jedi in the temple.

Please do, it is the crux of your argument. And best in the Temple is far inferior to best in the verse's history since there is much more competition if you include the whole verse and the Sith, particularly Rule of Two Sith.

Hittheassassin has already addressed many of your points about ren’s feats. They don’t put him as a 7. I can say he is a low 7 just thanks to the quote

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#45 Posted by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: @hittheassasin: I checked with someone who saw the movie with me and they said that Luke realized she was special when she heard the Jedi texts calling to her. So sorry for the mistake on that point. But I still think that we're supposed to believe Luke was impressed with Rey judging by his facial expression and focus on her while she practices.

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#46 Posted by Frozen (21114 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos239: I think the way the statement is structured, the only way it makes sense is if it's comparing their power as of the Empire v the First Order

Richard, didn't Snoke generate lightning at one point? Also, padawans don't go around telepathically connecting people across a galaxy.

@richard96

Well this makes no sense, considering that the Empire is far bigger and more powerful than the First Order. TFO don't even have control of the galaxy, they're just remnants of the Empire.

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#47 Posted by nfactor1995 (12809 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't see Dooku being superior to Snoke in-universe tbh

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#48 Posted by ParagonNate (4605 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:
@paragonnate said:

@chaos239: I think the way the statement is structured, the only way it makes sense is if it's comparing their power as of the Empire v the First Order

Richard, didn't Snoke generate lightning at one point? Also, padawans don't go around telepathically connecting people across a galaxy.

@richard96

Well this makes no sense, considering that the Empire is far bigger and more powerful than the First Order. TFO don't even have control of the galaxy, they're just remnants of the Empire.

Well, the FO does have larger and more powerful ships. And they did have the resources and material to hollow out a planet and make a star and solar system killing weapon out of it. I'd say we shouldn't sell their resources and military power short.

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#49 Posted by AlphaQ (6066 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:
@paragonnate said:

@chaos239: I think the way the statement is structured, the only way it makes sense is if it's comparing their power as of the Empire v the First Order

Richard, didn't Snoke generate lightning at one point? Also, padawans don't go around telepathically connecting people across a galaxy.

@richard96

Well this makes no sense, considering that the Empire is far bigger and more powerful than the First Order. TFO don't even have control of the galaxy, they're just remnants of the Empire.

Well, the FO does have larger and more powerful ships. And they did have the resources and material to hollow out a planet and make a star and solar system killing weapon out of it. I'd say we shouldn't sell their resources and military power short.

They also have more advanced tech, it seems, since they were capable of building a tracker that could track ships at lightspeed. Also, I kinda assumed Snoke was gathering resources in the Outer Rim before he emerged to form the First Order proper.

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#50 Edited by Frozen (21114 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Yes they did, but the Resistance still destroyed the Star Killer. Does that mean Resistance > Rebels? The films have framed the First Order as the last parts of the Empire trying to regain whatever power they can, they're more akin to a terrorist splinter group of a fallen regime, if that is an adequate analogy.

The Empire ruled the Galaxy for a good 20 years, until the Battle of Endor. Then at some point after that, the First Order rose, yet in spite of the 30 year gap between ROTJ and TFA they were still not able to fully gain back control of the Galaxy.

@alphaq said:

Snoke was effortlessly ragdolling Rey, who is Kylo's equal in TK, who has statements that he is one of the strongest combatents in the history of Star Wars, and the Praetorian Guards were giving Kylo and Rey trouble. I don't see how Dooku could defeat these guys.

When was this statement made? Regardless, he has done nothing to show for it.

I would wager that a regular Jedi from the prequel era could defeat Kylo. Put him against Kit-Fisto and he'd lose.