The one that's considered as Vader's equal. And actually scales to him.
Kylo has no way to even compete other than Force powers. And even in that department he's outmatched. Since Pre-ESB Luke shook a Star Destroyer on accident, when he lashed-out:
And in case you don't know. A Star Destroyer weighs 40 million tons:
The best Force feats from Kylo pale in comparison to this.
His Saber skills are almost non-existent and rely heavily on statments and downplaying other well-established characters. The best performance he has shown is even below the likes of Padawan Ahsoka & Barriss Offee.
Inb4 "He has Saber skills comparable to Anakin & Luke." Which is a baseless statement that has nothing backing it up. Just like every other statment from the sequel era. Kylo is a low-tier in Sabers. And a mid-tier with the force.
Gotta say I feel bad for Kylo, thats an awsome art makes you feel he was actually written like Caedus and powerful.
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I feel you. As someone who actually hoped Kylo would be of worth. I'm honestly sad how dirty he was done by the movies. Imagine being a descendant of Anakin Skywalker. The Chosen One. And yet, your best "skill" feats with a Saber are bodying no-names. It's just sad.
He became 10 times worse when I learned that Caedus exists in Legends. What a pathetic excuse for a Darksider. Even Savage is more threatening than him.
@reaperace: Facts. Shit was so disappointing that even Oscar Isaac doesn't wanna be involved in Star Wars anymore:
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This is the same dude that was PUMPED about being in Star Wars during Force Awakens interviews. He even mentioned that he had Lightsaber duels with friends. How RoTJ is the first movie he saw and it's connection to his childhood. As well as his uncle also being a big Star Wars fan himselfa himself It's how happy he got to be in a scene with him. It's honestly pretty sad how bad it has gotten.
Luke is a superior duelist but Kylo is the more experienced Force-user. Overall, I think Luke's comparable power and not insignificant skill at this point are enough for him to hold off Kylo's Force abilities long enough to outduel him. If Kylo abused his greater skill with the Force he might win, but he always seems to engage in a duel, where he'll be outmatched here.
@cryolancer47: TBF the force he was able to direct on his opponent was significantly less. He has no feats of actively using millions of tons of power and affecting an opponent and the direct attack there Kylo could block. It doesn't matter much if Luke shakes the environment.
@cryolancer47: TBF the force he was able to direct on his opponent was significantly less. He has no feats of actively using millions of tons of power and affecting an opponent and the direct attack there Kylo could block. It doesn't matter much if Luke shakes the environment.
It does matter when the environment he shook was a 40 million ton Star Destroyer. And the Luke being used here is RoTJ Luke. So even if you try to downplay his Star Destroyer feat. He's still equal to Vader. And can contend in Sabers with him. So Kylo still gets roflstomped, either way. Luke has more things going for him than Kylo could ever hope to have.
@cryolancer47: I agree Luke wins just think using the only knocks out a stormtrooper level force push is a good feat of potential but as far as we know he never got to that level of power.
Also I think the fight is probably closeish Luke definitely wins until Kylo gets feats that Scale him more clearly but it seems like they are probably supposed to be in the same relative ballpark.
I agree Luke wins just think using the only knocks out a stormtrooper level force push is a good feat of potential but as far as we know he never got to that level of power.
He got to Vader’s levels. That's enough to take this with no difficulty whatsoever.
Also I think the fight is probably closeish
No. No they're not. They're as far from each other, the same way the sun and moon are.
I'll give you an example of how high Vader is in comparison to the clowns known as Rey & Kylo.
Base Anakin Skywalker already scales above Yoda in Force Power. Who performed this feat Pre-RoTS:
And Darth Vader has long since surpassed Anakin, Yoda and the RoTS titans and left them in the dust. And has a multitude of feats to back up such a claim.
And Luke is this man's equal. Or maybe slightly behind him. Kylo has nothing on him. He's a bug in comparison.
Luke definitely wins until Kylo gets feats that Scale him more clearly but it seems like they are probably supposed to be in the same relative ballpark.
No. Luke is superior in everything. Kylo can't contend in Sabers or the Force. And if Kylo gets feats. When he gets feats. If it contradicts his previous showings. They'll be considered as Outliers. And this is assuming he gets feats. Not more flowery words that prove nothing.
Kylo and Rey are knowhere near the Star Wars Titans. Dooku is closer to them than either of the Dyad Duo can ever hope to be, thanks to his performance against AoTC Yoda in Force.
Luke is either Vader’s equal of slightly behind the Juggernaut.
The only thing Kylo's got going for him is beating nameless fodder, and TROS Rey.
I agree Luke wins just think using the only knocks out a stormtrooper level force push is a good feat of potential but as far as we know he never got to that level of power.
He got to Vader’s levels. That's enough to take this with no difficulty whatsoever.
Also I think the fight is probably closeish
No. No they're not. They're as far from each other, the same way the sun and moon are.
I'll give you an example of how high Vader is in comparison to the clowns known as Rey & Kylo.
Base Anakin Skywalker already scales above Yoda in Force Power. Who performed this feat Pre-RoTS:
And Darth Vader has long since surpassed Anakin, Yoda and the RoTS titans and left them in the dust. And has a multitude of feats to back up such a claim.
And Luke is this man's equal. Or maybe slightly behind him. Kylo has nothing on him. He's a bug in comparison.
Luke definitely wins until Kylo gets feats that Scale him more clearly but it seems like they are probably supposed to be in the same relative ballpark.
No. Luke is superior in everything. Kylo can't contend in Sabers or the Force. And if Kylo gets feats. When he gets feats. If it contradicts his previous showings. They'll be considered as Outliers. And this is assuming he gets feats. Not more flowery words that prove nothing.
Kylo and Rey are knowhere near the Star Wars Titans. Dooku is closer to them than either of the Dyad Duo can ever hope to be, thanks to his performance against AoTC Yoda in Force.
Luke is either Vader’s equal of slightly behind the Juggernaut.
The only thing Kylo's got going for him is beating nameless fodder, and TROS Rey.
Not even that, he’s confirmed exactly equal in the force and sabers at this point by the 2016 canon guidebook. If anything, you could say he’s a bit above as in the 2021 Skywalker Family at War novel Sidious refers to Luke as more powerful than his father. Basically a reference to if Luke cuts loose and gives into his anger even a little(Like Zonakin) he’d be quite beyond Vader.
By the Mandalorian/BOBF he’s above Vader while in base due to confirmations that he’s superior to his past self but to an unquantifiable amount.
Anyways Luke negs Kylo. Probably wouldn’t even need his saber and could simply ragdoll.
Not even that, he’s confirmed exactly equal in the force and sabers at this point by the 2016 canon guidebook. If anything, you could say he’s a bit above as in the 2021 Skywalker Family at War novel Sidious refers to Luke as more powerful than his father. Basically a reference to if Luke cuts loose and gives into his anger even a little(Like Zonakin) he’d be quite beyond Vader.
By the Mandalorian/BOBF he’s above Vader while in base due to confirmations that he’s superior to his past self but to an unquantifiable amount.
Anyways Luke negs Kylo. Probably wouldn’t even need his saber and could simply ragdoll.
And if it’s Bloodlusted?
This is what happens to Kylo:
So this turned out to be even more of a Spite-match than I originally thought it would be.... lmao!
OT: Luke Pimp-slaps the Fodder. You can give Kylo help from Rey + Dyad amp. And they would still be fodder to the chosen one's son.
“Also I think the fight is probably closeish Luke definitely wins until Kylo gets feats that Scale him more clearly but it seems like they are probably supposed to be in the same relative ballpark.”
“Also I think the fight is probably closeish Luke definitely wins until Kylo gets feats that Scale him more clearly but it seems like they are probably supposed to be in the same relative ballpark.”
Not even that, he’s confirmed exactly equal in the force and sabers at this point by the 2016 canon guidebook. If anything, you could say he’s a bit above as in the 2021 Skywalker Family at War novel Sidious refers to Luke as more powerful than his father. Basically a reference to if Luke cuts loose and gives into his anger even a little(Like Zonakin) he’d be quite beyond Vader.
By the Mandalorian/BOBF he’s above Vader while in base due to confirmations that he’s superior to his past self but to an unquantifiable amount.
Anyways Luke negs Kylo. Probably wouldn’t even need his saber and could simply ragdoll.
And if it’s Bloodlusted?
This is what happens to Kylo:
So this turned out to be even more of a Spite-match than I originally thought it would be.... lmao!
OT: Luke Pimp-slaps the Fodder. You can give Kylo help from Rey + Dyad amp. And they would still be fodder to the chosen one's son.
Not even that, he’s confirmed exactly equal in the force and sabers at this point by the 2016 canon guidebook. If anything, you could say he’s a bit above as in the 2021 Skywalker Family at War novel Sidious refers to Luke as more powerful than his father. Basically a reference to if Luke cuts loose and gives into his anger even a little(Like Zonakin) he’d be quite beyond Vader.
By the Mandalorian/BOBF he’s above Vader while in base due to confirmations that he’s superior to his past self but to an unquantifiable amount.
Anyways Luke negs Kylo. Probably wouldn’t even need his saber and could simply ragdoll.
And if it’s Bloodlusted?
This is what happens to Kylo:
So this turned out to be even more of a Spite-match than I originally thought it would be.... lmao!
OT: Luke Pimp-slaps the Fodder. You can give Kylo help from Rey + Dyad amp. And they would still be fodder to the chosen one's son.
lol come on this is just delusional.
I'm sorry. Do you actually think Kylo has any chance against Vader's official equal? His best Force feat is the statue one. Which places him as a mid-tier in Force powers.
Meanwhile, even base Anakin has better scaling via Yoda stopping a mountain. And Vader is far above Anakin and the RoTS titans.
Thinking Kylo stands a shadow of a chance against a Vader-level opponent is the real delusion here.
@thenamelessone: i agree Luke wins, but how is he a tier 9+ duelist by the time of ROTJ? Wouldn't that make him a better duelist than Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, Anakin, etc?
“The lightsabers may well have been unbreakable, but that did not prevent one of them from being lost during Palpatine’s battle with Mace Windu. Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon-to-be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Windu to deliver a kick to his chest.”
-Star Wars Encyclopedia (De Agostini) 83 Lightsabers and Jedi Equipment
And Vader is listed above Sidious as the #1 Red lightsaber duelist in canon according to “Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know”
@sonofdarkness: There is far more sources, sources with more autority & legitimacy which confirm the exact opposite. Check the last comments in the thread for reference.
“Darth Vader has the highest midi-chlorian count among Jedi or Sith—20,000+ per cell—which makes him very powerful. Even Kanan and Ezra together aren’t capable of defeating him!”
@wholewheat: yeah, I suppose you're right. It's weird cause in legends i always thought Vader was ROTS titan level or slightly above, meanwhile in Canon Vader and Luke are practically in a tier of their own it seems like
@sonofdarkness: Sidious didn't let Windu win , its confirmed Sidious would havr died without Anakin ,and Windu Legimately winning is not only narratively better but also Narratively more sensible.
@thenamelessone: nah narratively it makes more sense that sidious threw. mace windu stood there stock still in melee range while sidious killed two of his teammates. also the timing was so perfect. finally, sidious unleashed his lightning, showing that he still had reserves. you think windu could clown maul+savage as hard as sidious did?
narratively yoda and sidious are the ultimate of light and dark. they were evenly matched. how would windu then be stronger than sidious and yoda?
also, windu had 200+jedi backing him up in geonosis and they still got slaughtered by some clankers. sidious would not allow that to happen
: nah narratively it makes more sense that sidious threw.
It absolutely doesn't , it takes away from the weight of Anakin's decision and makes the Darkside look weak and vulnerable in front of Anakin , Darkside's power is what Palpatine uses the entire move to lure Anakin into the Darkness , If he makes The Power seem weak he fails the entire mission because he blatantly displayed inferior of Darkness To Light in front of the person he is attemping to turn at the first place
mace windu stood there stock still in melee range while sidious killed two of his teammates. also the timing was so perfect.
Mace probably didn't even expect Palpatine to just jump and kill three , and Mace got into defensive combat stance before Palpatine strikes any of his fellow Masters down
finally, sidious unleashed his lightning, showing that he still had reserves.
Palpatine literally unleashed Lightning few moments before as well , His reserves were never shown to be empty
you think windu could clown maul+savage as hard as sidious did?
Harder , because he won't play , he would blitz them and send their heads flying away with his Lightsaber , Windu stalemated Talzin another peer of Sidious btw.
narratively yoda and sidious are the ultimate of light and dark. they were evenly matched. how would windu then be stronger than sidious and yoda?
Palpatine and Yoda are individually slightly better in the force even though Mace's force power is confirmed to be on par with Yoda's while Mace is a more skilled Duelist , Lightside and Darkside are related mainly.to Force powers , Yoda and Sidious are better then Mace in force which mace compensates for via being a decently more skilled duelist then Sidious and ~ Yoda in dueling , combatively they are all on the same tier .
also, windu had 200+jedi backing him up in geonosis and they still got slaughtered by some clankers. sidious would not allow that to happen
don't use movie anti feats as Movie Palpatine literally was physically overpower.via a handless Vader and thrown away , Mace wouldn't let that happen remotely either but again ,movies potray SW characters as people with superhuman physicals , Highly superhuman speed , some ability to control a normal human being , some Telepathically and Telekenesis that is merely in tens of tons and if you get lucky , you get Lightning and Energy Deflection/Absorption , thats It , movie version of characters are generally way weaker then others .
oh and that is Attack of the Clones Windu , who is weaker then Attack of The clones Yoda who is equal to Attack of the clones Darth Tyranus .
@thenamelessone: in SOD maul knocked down both mace and aayla together. we don't see the whole fight be he at least held his own for some amount of time against both of those two
palpatine being overpowered by handless vader shows how powerful vader is
the fact that mace was surprised would maybe justify him letting sidious strike one person down. the fact that two were struck and he literally stood still is kind of absurd and just shows a difference in fighting prowess. notice that vader is portrayed very differently - while sidious strikes luke, vader can actually react and strike back.
also vader keep proceeding while facetanking sidious's lightning. he held his grip and kept walking. mace was stunned and could not even push sidious off the ledge, let alone pick him up and throw him. mace had every reason to go for a suicide kill and try to take sidious with him as vader did. yet mace failed and vader succeeded. that shows the difference in their power, and hence luke and mace's power
in SOD maul knocked down both mace and aayla together. we don't see the whole fight be he at least held his own for some amount of time against both of those two
it was On Darthomir which is like , a ridiculously overppwered Darkside Nexus , its so overpowered that it allows Ventress to defeat Grevious when Grevious normally can utterly spite even season 7 Kenobi in their deleted scene .
palpatine being overpowered by handless vader shows how powerful vader is
same Vader was physically overpowered by Luke atleast twice in the same sequence
the fact that mace was surprised would maybe justify him letting sidious strike one person down. the fact that two were struck and he literally stood still is kind of absurd and just shows a difference in fighting prowess. notice that vader is portrayed very differently - while sidious strikes luke, vader can actually react and strike back.
again , Mace went on a defensive stance , it is pointless for him to try protecting his brothers as overextending right now wouldn't be a great idea and ofcourse , Palpatine used force scream on them all to paralyze them to some degree too , It was pointless to Try and defend the others , you can't defend fodders while in a duel with a near equal
also vader keep proceeding while facetanking sidious's lightning. he held his grip and kept walking. mace was stunned and could not even push sidious off the ledge, let alone pick him up and throw him. mace had every reason to go for a suicide kill and try to take sidious with him as vader did. yet mace failed and vader succeeded. that shows the difference in their power, and hence luke and mace's power
c'mon , by this logic Mace > Luke as he stood when he was being electrocuted wjile Luke was not able to react and was laid in mere seconds , Vader has a suit and also died in mere MOMENTS after the Lightning started , Mace atleast stayed alive even after having his arm cut and repeatedly electrocuted ans thrown from a massive skyscraper
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