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#1 Edited by Esquire (4012 posts) - - Show Bio
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Team @cadencev2 Team Sharpshooter

  • Roland Gilead (Six Shooters, Skolpadda, Demon Jawbone, Oy, Knife)
  • Liara T'soni (Biotics, Carnifex, Scoirpion, Armour)
  • Ultimate Hawkeye (Bow, Arrows, All Trick Arrows, HEs Handguns, All Trick Ammo)

Team @laflux Kung Fu Healers

  • Wolverine
  • Gorgon
  • Ultimate Cap

Rules:

  • In character
  • Win by Death, KO, BFR, or Incapacitation
  • Team Chemistry does come into play
  • No Prep
  • All DC Characters are Pre-52, but Post-52 Feats can be used in most cases
  • All Marvel Characters are Current unless otherwise specified
  • Standard Gear unless otherwise specified
  • Location is unpopulated
  • Contestants start on the bridge at opposite ends.

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#2 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

What Considered... standard? Example, Liara has used Weapons in the game, however it was all player chioce what weapons she can use.

So Whats stanadard for her then?

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#3 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: I just wanted to state Gear now.

Roland: Six Shooters, Skolpadda, Demon Jawbone, Oy, Knife.

Liara: Biotics, Carnifex, Scoirpion, Armour.

Ult. Hawkeye: Bow, Arrows, All Trick Arrows, HEs Handguns, All Trick Ammo.

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#4 Edited by Esquire (4012 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Eh, seems fine. I'll put it in the OP.

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#5 Edited by XImpossibruX (5752 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't like to play favourites, but I'm currently playing Citadel Mass Effect 3, so Cadencev2 you better win since you're using Liara!

Argue your heart out.

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#6 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: List your gear if ya want. then I will post.

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#8 Edited by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Gorgon- Adamantuim Katana (stone gaze disabled because I'm a gentleman :P).

Wolverine- Standard Adamantuim .

Ult Cap- Assault Rifle, Grenades, Adamantuim Shield.

Yeah you can go first if you want

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#9 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Alrighty.

My plan is simple. Be on the end of the Bridge, take cover, and fire Away.

Your Turn lol.

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#10 Edited by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Well, I have to admit first off, that my knowledge of Liara and to a lesser extent Roland is kinda lacking, so forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions. What I will say, is that I know Roland and Ult Hawkeye are excellent marksmen, and are for all intensive purposes Superhuman when it comes to aiming and draw speed. Liara and my knowledge of Mass effect is even worse, I only know Liara as "that alien girl who boned the protagonist lol", but after a quick look at the Mass effect Wikia (I know they are not completely trustworthy), and it seems that she has a variety of useful tech.

What I will say is that I think this a classic ranged vs h2h set up. I feel more inclined that this battle is more about me trying to say whether my team can get up close, before they are blown away, or too ridden with bullet holes to continue. I also feel that if my does get close, then their enhanced stats, martial arts experience and laxed morals would mean that they would take the win (My team isn't named Kung-Fu healers for nothing :P).

I probably won't be able to give a more detailed response till tomorrow, in the meanwhile, feel free to show why the characters you chose are the fastest guns in well, the ummm tourney.

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#11 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@cadencev2:

Well, I have to admit first off, that my knowledge of Liara and to a lesser extent Roland is kinda lacking, so forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions. What I will say, is that I know Roland and Ult Hawkeye are excellent marksmen, and are for all intensive purposes Superhuman when it comes to aiming and draw speed. Liara and my knowledge of Mass effect is even worse, I only know Liara as "that alien girl who boned the protagonist lol", but after a quick look at the Mass effect Wikia (I know they are not completely trustworthy), and it seems that she has a variety of useful tech.

What I will say is that I think this a classic ranged vs h2h set up. I feel more inclined that this battle is more about me trying to whether my team can get up close, before they are blown away, or too ridden with bullet holes to continue. I also feel that if my does get close, then their enhanced stats, martial arts experience and laxed morals would mean that they would take the win (My team isn't named Kung-Fu healers for nothing :P).

I probably won't be able to give a more detailed response till tomorrow, in the meanwhile, feel free to show why the characters you chose are the fastest guns in well, the ummm tourney.

LOL you are near fighting blind on my team. the only one you know well is Ultimate Hawkeye.

Want to know Roland :) Check out My Respect Thread!

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/dark-tower-respect-745904/

Roland is clear superhuman. ontop of this Roland has Hit and Pegged beings with Faster than human Speed. Look under Speed feats of the Respect lol.

Anyway Its Clear Roland will be able to pump lead into your guys quick as Hell.

The befit to his Dark Tower / Excalibur Forge weapons is they kill Immortals and Healers like Type 3 Vampires with equal ease!

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As seen here the Guns were even able to Kill Crimson King who is Immortal and cannot die. As a Were Spider he has insane Healing. Crimson King Kills himself knowing he would return Undead. However if shot with the guns (in a vital killing spot) first he would simply stay dead.

Immortal Demons also fear being shot by the Guns. Only Type One Vampire (True Undead) are beyond them.

Point is I can drop Cap, Wolverine, or Gorgon with enough Shots for sure.

Liara

Liara, who is Liara? Liara is the shadow Broker of the Galaxy. She is the greatest CIA, KGB, MI6, ect wrapped into one on a Galaxy Scale.

She is also in the heart of Sheperd's War against Sovereign and the Geth (ME1) and the Reapers, Cerberus, and Geth (ME3). She is battle proven and shocase these Skills against the Collectors in the Mass Effect Comics.

Her Biotic Powers are essential to beating your team as well.

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Singularities have multiple uses. Mini Black Hole that causes a Gravity Well within 5 Meter Radius! They also cause Gravitational Damage while Incapacitating you.

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Or they can Explode to Devastating Effect!

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#12 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

First off, sorry for the delay, and also thanks for the heads up concerning their abilities. And I agree, it is definitely not in my teams interest to stay at range when fighting these people. However , I would like say that Cap's Shield is for all intents and purposes indestructible and would provide good protection against the bullets of Roland, (do you have any feats of Roland's bullets being able to shoot through anything nigh indestructible ). Also, Gorgon and Wolverine have survived mythical attacks- The Muramasa Blade is forged using Wolverine's soul remember, and he frequently gone against the Hand and their ninja's while affected by their poison. Gorgon in particular is a case in point. He has been resurrected twice, once to prove himself, and secondly after Wolverine reflected his stone glare to kill him (Plot induced victory but oh well). Currently, he isn't in even possession of heartbeat.

Gorgon vs Elektra and Wolverine

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Gorgon tanks repeated slashes from Wolverine from Elektra (okay bullets are not the same as bladed weapons), but its still penetrative damage. If you look a the third scan, Gorgon heals from from those wounds nearly instantly, and actually shows an aura surrounding his hands. He later tanks a massive explosion.

Slightly Earlier, Wolverine fights through a swathe of Mythical Hand Ninja's to reach Tomi, resisting the affects of their poison.

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Now, Ult Cap has the weakest healing factor out of the three, but as I mentioned before he has the Shield to help him tank bullets. His healing factor is probably in between that of characters like Luge Cage/Spider-Man and Wolverine. As I'm sure aware, he healing factor was recently buffed from in Blade and the Ultimate's, where it was stated that he could heal from knife and bullet wounds in minutes and hours.

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It is important to note that he he is healing from Vampirism in this scan. I as I said before, I do feel that with enough shots Roland can take out a member, but I reckon that they would need to be shot multiple times if the bullets hit non-vital areas. Wolverine and Gorgon have the advantage of the higher HF, while Cap can protect vital areas with his shield.

As for Ult Hawkeye, thankfully I'm more acquainted with him. Of course him having his trick arrows, including the nuke arrows would be a problem. However, I think it is important to note that Ult Hawkeye using such explosions would likely put the structural integrity of Bridge at stake. I think it would be safer for your team to use smaller explosives. But doing so also would reduce the lethality. As shown above, Gorgon has tanked explosions, as has Wolverine, most notably against Nitro, when he had his entire soft tissue burnt away. Now, many people would dismiss this as a high end feat and yes it is, but it is important to note that other healers have accomplished similar feats. Daken was able to survive a building leveling explosion, recover and walk out with cool/hot swagger (depending on what your into :P)

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X-23 was also caught in the blast, but no one is interested in her. Seriously though, both Daken and X-23 lack Adamantuim in their skeletons. Healers tend to have increased durability as part of their power-sets which of course would help them against explosions.

As for the Ult Cap, he concussive nature of such blasts would be dealt with due to his superhuman durability. He has taken hits from Ult Abomination and the Chutari Skrull commander, even defeating the latter and continued fighting (I know your aware of this lol), this is more for those who are reading the debate and who are not familiar with the ultimate universe.

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What makes him tanking the blows of the Skrull impressive is this feat.

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As you can see, he was able to lift and throw a semi-tanker without much effort, after being punched. That feat only puts him at 8-10 tonnes as a conservative estimate.

Perhaps most impressively, Ult Cap was able to survive the shockwave from an enormous explosion.

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A high end feat perhaps, but it important to remember that Cap has his Shield to protect him from any large explosions.

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So, I do think that it would take quite alot to take my team down, despite the ranged capabilities of Roland and Ult Hawkeye. I do know that Liara after further reading has more to her than portable Black holes, but concerning those, due to their narrow catchment, I think they can be avoided, especially since they would drawing in vehicles, betraying their location. But the key question for this debate, is that will your team have enough time, and get enough firepower to put the Kung Fu healers down? Naturally, my answer is yes (otherwise there wouldn't be any point of the debate lol). And why do I think so? Well that will be revealed in the next thread :P.

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#13 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

First off, sorry for the delay, and also thanks for the heads up concerning their abilities. And I agree, it is definitely not in my teams interest to stay at range when fighting these people. However , I would like say that Cap's Shield is for all intents and purposes indestructible and would provide good protection against the bullets of Roland, (do you have any feats of Roland's bullets being able to shoot through anything nigh indestructible ).

Rolands is a straight Shooter. He does not do trick shots. He relies on his Super Human Quickdraw, firing speed, reload speed, and Super Human Accuracy to win. With that said he has Oy and other gear in case of H2H ensue.

Also, Gorgon and Wolverine have survived mythical attacks- The Muramasa Blade is forged using Wolverine's soul remember, and he frequently gone against the Hand and their ninja's while affected by their poison. Gorgon in particular is a case in point. He has been resurrected twice, once to prove himself, and secondly after Wolverine reflected his stone glare to kill him (Plot induced victory but oh well). Currently, he isn't in even possession of heartbeat.

So Gorgon then would be ... undead? I am assuming that is what you meant with the Heart Beat. Heres the point of Roland's immortal killing guns.

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Here even the immortal Demon that is a Dust Devil runs in fear of his Dark tower forge weapons. If Roland shoots logan thru the Eyes, that would be a kill shot. Or even a Kidney shot, Wolvie bleeds out. Shoots a Major Artery Logans done. It simply kills beings with Healing factors as long the shot is a kill shot.

Gorgon vs Elektra and Wolverine

Gorgon tanks repeated slashes from Wolverine from Elektra (okay bullets are not the same as bladed weapons), but its still penetrative damage. If you look a the third scan, Gorgon heals from from those wounds nearly instantly, and actually shows an aura surrounding his hands. He later tanks a massive explosion.

Slightly Earlier, Wolverine fights through a swathe of Mythical Hand Ninja's to reach Tomi, resisting the affects of their poison.

All good, yet none are Kill shots from the Multiverse, or rather Stephen king Omniverse, guns of the Dark Tower.

Now, Ult Cap has the weakest healing factor out of the three, but as I mentioned before he has the Shield to help him tank bullets. His healing factor is probably in between that of characters like Luge Cage/Spider-Man and Wolverine. As I'm sure aware, he healing factor was recently buffed from in Blade and the Ultimate's, where it was stated that he could heal from knife and bullet wounds in minutes and hours.

It is important to note that he he is healing from Vampirism in this scan. I as I said before, I do feel that with enough shots Roland can take out a member, but I reckon that they would need to be shot multiple times if the bullets hit non-vital areas. Wolverine and Gorgon have the advantage of the higher HF, while Cap can protect vital areas with his shield.

Look, guy, if your going to use my scans of my fav Ult. Cap, then know the facts that Caps healing factor was the same before the Blade incident. I have the scans to show.

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As seen, espicialy in the last scan. Cap HF is as impressive then as it is now. Heck he healed from Sabertooth claws in mid battle in Ultimates 3!

Just so you do my man proud if you get past me :)

As for Ult Hawkeye, thankfully I'm more acquainted with him. Of course him having his trick arrows, including the nuke arrows would be a problem. However, I think it is important to note that Ult Hawkeye using such explosions would likely put the structural integrity of Bridge at stake. I think it would be safer for your team to use smaller explosives. But doing so also would reduce the lethality. As shown above, Gorgon has tanked explosions, as has Wolverine, most notably against Nitro, when he had his entire soft tissue burnt away. Now, many people would dismiss this as a high end feat and yes it is, but it is important to note that other healers have accomplished similar feats. Daken was able to survive a building leveling explosion, recover and walk out with cool/hot swagger (depending on what your into :P)

X-23 was also caught in the blast, but no one is interested in her. Seriously though, both Daken and X-23 lack Adamantuim in their skeletons. Healers tend to have increased durability as part of their power-sets which of course would help them against explosions.

What we dont see from Daken and X-23 is their bodies being blown to pieces. There is NO FEAT of them healing being blown to peices. So both instances mean little if they were not blown apart due to PIS.

I have think its safe to say I have 1 Nuke arrow. And yes, I know a thing or 2 about bridges. If one side fell the other would still have structural strength to stay in place. Its a safety feature in all bridges (well built ones that matter like this one).

As for the Ult Cap, he concussive nature of such blasts would be dealt with due to his superhuman durability. He has taken hits from Ult Abomination and the Chutari Skrull commander, even defeating the latter and continued fighting (I know your aware of this lol), this is more for those who are reading the debate and who are not familiar with the ultimate universe.

What makes him tanking the blows of the Skrull impressive is this feat.

As you can see, he was able to lift and throw a semi-tanker without much effort, after being punched. That feat only puts him at 8-10 tonnes as a conservative estimate.

Perhaps most impressively, Ult Cap was able to survive the shockwave from an enormous explosion.

A high end feat perhaps, but it important to remember that Cap has his Shield to protect him from any large explosions.

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I never thought I see the day when my own Scans used against me lol.

Anyway there is no way Cap is being beaten due to blunt force. However Hakweye does have other ways.

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Like a Tranquiler Arrow type, Taser Arrows, and Bola Arrows.

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Mini Explosive Arrows.

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As well the Tranquilizer Crossbow Arrows that go with his Crossbow and .45s Combo Guns! Remeber Hawk has his Patent Crossbow Combo Hand Guns.

Add to this fact the Ultimate Hawk Eye is fast enough to tag a Dodging Super Human Black Widow...

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As well Tag Spider with a Knock out Dart, and then dodge Spider Man Attacks while shooting out his Webs!

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I think it is safe to say he can Tag anyone on your team with his Superman Accuracy and Twitch Speed.

So, I do think that it would take quite alot to take my team down, despite the ranged capabilities of Roland and Ult Hawkeye. I do know that Liara after further reading has more to her than portable Black holes, but concerning those, due to their narrow catchment, I think they can be avoided, especially since they would drawing in vehicles, betraying their location. But the key question for this debate, is that will your team have enough time, and get enough firepower to put the Kung Fu healers down? Naturally, my answer is yes (otherwise there wouldn't be any point of the debate lol). And why do I think so? Well that will be revealed in the next thread :P.

The point of the Singularity is ... this.

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The actual Stats Impact Radius and Duration are not game mechanics. The rest kinda is. Recharge Time is far less depending on gear weight, maximum targets is gameplay mechanics, ect ect. The Facts however is the Description is it can expand 3 meters and last 45 seconds.

What does this mean? It means I can funnel your team in a smaller window.

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The blue is the 3 meter Singularity. The V lines is the overlapping fields of range fire. You are being funneled my friend :) The battlefield favors me heavily.

Add to this Mass Effect Weapons shoot faster and harder than Bullets!

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As seen above Mass Accelerated Rifles shoot much faster speed than any Chemical Bullet.

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The Carnifex is so powerful as a Mass Accelerator that is punches holes in the strongest Species and Body Armour.

Ontop of this Liara uses Warp Ammo on her bullets to increase damage taken.

What does all this mean? It means Liara can pack a punch.

Also you forget Liara has another ability to help even the odds. STASIS!

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Stasis is a Instantaneous move. It lasts 21 Seconds. Liara core powerset includes this.

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Skip to :50.

Now that guy hit by it remains immune to damage. But for 21 seconds it is 3 on 2. With a Singularity narrowing the field of battle.

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#14 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Don't worry I haven't ran away. Should reply later today

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#16 Edited by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

"Here even the immortal Demon that is a Dust Devil runs in fear of his Dark tower forge weapons. If Roland shoots logan thru the Eyes, that would be a kill shot. Or even a Kidney shot, Wolvie bleeds out. Shoots a Major Artery Logans done. It simply kills beings with Healing factors as long the shot is a kill shot".

So the weapons kill as long they hit vital areas? I can except that. What I will say that since Roland's weapons are not able to cut through anything, Wolverine's Adamantuim Skeleton should protect some of his vital organs from attack. Logan Brain should be off-limits, and to reach Logan's heart he would need to shoot in-between the ribs. Even hits to his eye won't kill him, unless Roland can hit Logan in the hole where the Optic Nerve pokes through to connect the eye and brain. As for the other organs, Wolverine has a tremendous tolerance to pain. When Rogue obtained Logan's powers, and sheathed her claws, she almost collapsed in pain. That's something that Wolverine does all the time. Being shot in non-vital organs like the kidney's is unlikely to stop him, especially immeaditaely.

As I said earlier concerning Ult Captain America, he has his Shield to protect him

"What we dont see from Daken and X-23 is their bodies being blown to pieces. There is NO FEAT of them healing being blown to peices. So both instances mean little if they were not blown apart due to PIS."

My Point was that healers can tank massive attacks without having their bodies being blown apart. Maybe it was not needed to use Daken and X-23 in the example- so I won't dedicate anymore scans to it, as it is Wolverine who is fighting rather than them. Nevertheless, considering that Daken has also taken heavy hits from Skaar (he was sucker punched) as well as Thing, without having limbs splayed everywhere, I wouldn't call it PIS. Wolverine has the advantage of the natural healing as well as his Adamantuim, which covers his ligaments and tendons.

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Notice the words "Skeletal Materials". That includes Bones, Tendons and ligaments.

Wolverine has also resisted being ripped apart from Baal and Savage Hulk who are 70 and 100 tonners respectively.

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So Logan isn't going to be dismembered by explosions anytime soon.

"Look, guy, if your going to use my scans of my fav Ult. Cap, then know the facts that Caps healing factor was the same before the Blade incident. I have the scans to show".

First off, no one is going to know as much about Cap as you do lol. I assumed his healing factor was buffed, because his healing feat in the Ultimate's after facing down Ult Hulk was to the extent of healing from Broken bones and dislocated joints in the space of one to two days. That's impressive, but its nothing Spider-Man hasn't done before. What Spider-Man hasn't done is heal from Knife wounds in minutes, I as from what I've read from Ult Cap, neither has he before then. However, if he has Healed mid-battle from slashes from Ult Sabretooth, then I concede that point. The larger point is that Ult Cap can take alot of punishment before going down, and that healing from Vampirism (Which is something the Ult Hulk Clone couldn't do) is his best healing feat to date.

Also don't be sad about the use of your scans. Consider it an honor. The alternative would be looking through my hard-drive, scanning issues or screen shotting my comic-book selection on comixology. Ironically, that's what's I'm doing for in your point Tourney. Besides Killemall steals all the street-level debater scans. He even admitted so himself D-:

I have think its safe to say I have 1 Nuke arrow. And yes, I know a thing or 2 about bridges. If one side fell the other would still have structural strength to stay in place. Its a safety feature in all bridges (well built ones that matter like this one).

I not sure about suspension bridges being able to hold their structural integrity when blown in half. In any case the shockwave from using Nuke arrows and larger explosions could backfire on the team, if not en capsule the whole area of the Bridge.

Anyway there is no way Cap is being beaten due to blunt force. However Hakweye does have other ways.

Like a Tranquiler Arrow type, Taser Arrows, and Bola Arrows.

First off, Wolverine has endured eating enough Blowfish poison to kill twenty men, and laughed it off.

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Gorgon has comparable healing feats to Logan as well, so I doubt he feel the effects strongly, if at all. As for Ultimate Cap, he has worked with Hawkeye, so he will be somewhat familiar with some of Hawkeye's equipment. Also Ult Cap's resilience may not be as good Logan's or Gorgon's but it important to note that in the Power grid for durability for Ult Cap is higher than Ult Spider-Man, and his feats support that IMO. And to take a look at the Blade and the Ultimate's scan again.

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It clearly states that he is immune to any Nerve toxins and poisons of any kind.

Also Cap fought dozens of people with enhanced strength and durability while choked full of tranquilizers

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"As well Tag Spider with a Knock out Dart, and then dodge Spider Man Attacks while shooting out his Webs!"

Tagging Spider-Man is really impressive. However it is important to note that Spider-Man did have his back turned when he was shot. Ult Hawkeye also did end up incapacitied by Spider-Man's webbing. Replace the webbing with the Shield throw of a 4-5 tonner, and Ult Hawkeye would have probably been Koed.

"Add to this fact the Ultimate Hawk Eye is fast enough to tag a Dodging Super Human Black Widow..."

Since you have brought up Ult Black Widow having Superhuman Speed, I thought I would bring up a glaring hole in my argument which I'm sure alot of people are probably screaming at me, for not mentioning earlier. All of my team have Superhuman reflexes, Speed and agility. I do feel that alot of my argument has so far been about me proving the resilience of my team against your firepower. I while I think my team would fall if exposed to enough firepower, they are not just going to be tanking the fire. They are actively going to be dodging, moving closer and trying to take down the team in close combat, where they would have the edge.

Ult Cap is at least on Captain America's level in pure speed, probably higher (given the magnitude of the feats he has performed). And Cap has done this

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Cap completely embarrasses Daredevil speedwise while keeping a steady heartbeat. In the next scan he runs at 60MPH while carrying Bucky Barnes- that's what a mile a minute equates to, on uneven ground.

Just to keep in mind, Daredevil himself has moved at the speed of thought

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What I'm trying to say here is that Ult Cap>=Cap<Daredevil. With this type of speed, Ult Cap is going to be able to close the Gap very quickly on the ranged opponents. On top of that, Ult Cap is an excellent Bullet-Timer with excellent situation awareness

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In the second and third scans, Ult Cap has only just been recovered, which makes the feat impressive enough to ignore the racial slur he aimed at Nick Fury >.>

Granted while these soldiers and goons are no where near Ult Hawkeye's and Roland's level he is dodging many of them at close proximity. Ult Cap is going to start from further away, and be facing less people. Also their is going to be cover in the form of cars to take cover. In the Open, I wager on Cap getting shot down, but with his speed, shield and cover I'd say there is good chance of Ult Cap getting close without suffering significant damage.

Wolverine also has Superhuman Speed. Given his feats, it should be around Cap level, if not a bit higher.

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Wolverine Tags Speed-Demon. That in itself is a great reflex/speed feat, but what people often fail to realize is that Logan was actually keeping pace with Speed-Demon while doing flips and acrobatics and manages to overtake him to tag him with his shoulder.

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First scan Speed-Blitzes Geist with ease. Second scan, Wolverine covers 50-100 meters in an instance to chop of the hand of some mook. Third and Fourth Scan speed blitzes some guards, cutting off their guns before they even know what's going on.

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Wolverine and Sabretooth fight so fast that Psylockes mind could barely track him (This was when Sabretooth was actually useful).

While none of these scan cover an extremely large distance, Wolverine is famed for his stamina- He has run continually for 10 hours while keeping a steady heartbeat, as well fighting in Omega Red's death spores for 17 hours, although he did require medical attention afterwards.

As for Bullet dodging and timing

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1st scan disappears from a hail of gunfire. Second scan, dodges bullets close range. Third scan able to dodge Bullets in gas without being effected.

Favorite Scan on mine. Daredevil, who has blocked Sniper Rifle fire with his billy club, praises Wolverine on his Bullet dodging.

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Wolverine does have a penchant for tanking bullets, be as soon as he gets hit in the head by one of Roland's bullets, and finds that his flesh wound isn't healing, he is instantly going to start relying on his speed and skill, to avoid being shot, at least in lethal areas. And since Roland's bullets are not indestructible, only able to kill anything, Wolverine would have the bonus of having cover to help him.

As for Gorgon, the simplest explanation would be he is flat out better than Logan. Wolverine pretty much admits it here.

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Wolverine also quotes on how fast Gorgon is. In his his own words he admits that no one is as fast as Gorgon, which is pretty impressive considering that he has fought, and managed to tag Spider-Man multiple times.

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In fact its a common trope that when people fight Gorgon they can't believe how fast he is. Here he tags Slingshot, a speedster who ran between two Mexican cities in a few moment if IIRC.

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Gorgon has excellent combat awareness- he fight blindfolded for lolz, as seen when he dispatches the Hand ninja's with ease. Having an Unbreakable Katana also gives, the ability to slice and parry bullets fired at him by your ranged team. Of course, your team are by the far superior marksmen, but your team is also using semi automatic fire, which is would allow greater respite. And also, he is shown to be a Bullet dodger at close range, though considering his speed against Wolverine, such is to be expected.

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With his Sword, Speed and Skill, as well as cover, I also think that Gorgon can get close enough to deal close range damage.

"The actual Stats Impact Radius and Duration are not game mechanics. The rest kinda is. Recharge Time is far less depending on gear weight, maximum targets is gameplay mechanics, ect ect. The Facts however is the Description is it can expand 3 meters and last 45 seconds".

"What does this mean? It means I can funnel your team in a smaller window"

That may be true yes, but the Suspension bridge is alot bigger than the bridge shown, so the funneling affect won't be as pronounced. Also the Black hole could be cleared with a single leap, Cap has jumped up two stories before, and Wolverine has jumped up 30 feet into the air to attack sentinels and dodge Cyclops' eye beams IIRC.

"Add to this Mass Effect Weapons shoot faster and harder than Bullets!

The Carnifex is so powerful as a Mass Accelerator that is punches holes in the strongest Species and Body Armour.

Ontop of this Liara uses Warp Ammo on her bullets to increase damage taken.

What does all this mean? It means Liara can pack a punch".

Bone Claw Wolverine was literally riddled with holes from Adamantuim Bullets and healed instantly. And due to pressure from Roland, he's going to trying his best to try and dodge bullets. Wolverine also has the advantage of his Adamantuim skeleton to try to tank damage. Cap's got his shield and speed, while Gorgon can Parry with his Sword and bullet time. Adamantuim is pretty much unbreakable via physical force- so unbreakable that all instances of Classic Hulk and Thor breaking the stuff was retconned so it was secondary Adamantuim. The extra power is nice, I still favor the Adamantuim in this case.

"Also you forget Liara has another ability to help even the odds. STASIS!"

First things first, what is the range of stasis. Can she use it from all the way across the bridge, or do they need to be close. The stasis also does tend to take a bit of time to charge, and Shepherd was able to twitch after it was fired before being frozen. If Liara tried to do that at close range against any of my team, she could risk getting Blitzed. Some extra info on that would be nice.

Wow that was long. I'll probably will need a couple of days before I reply to your point tourney. If you beat me in this and that, you will bring it to 2-2 between us :D

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#17 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

So the weapons kill as long they hit vital areas? I can except that. What I will say that since Roland's weapons are not able to cut through anything, Wolverine's Adamantuim Skeleton should protect some of his vital organs from attack. Logan Brain should be off-limits, and to reach Logan's heart he would need to shoot in-between the ribs. Even hits to his eye won't kill him, unless Roland can hit Logan in the hole where the Optic Nerve pokes through to connect the eye and brain. As for the other organs, Wolverine has a tremendous tolerance to pain. When Rogue obtained Logan's powers, and sheathed her claws, she almost collapsed in pain. That's something that Wolverine does all the time. Being shot in non-vital organs like the kidney's is unlikely to stop him, especially immeaditaely.

I dont see how Adamntium will protect the major arteries tunning through the leg or arms. You can bleed to death in minuets.

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I also dont see Adamantium protecting the eyes as its cartlidge and Muscle behind the eyeball, not bone.

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This is not inluding the Trangs Hawkeye has or Biotics Liara can use to beat Logan with ease.

As I said earlier concerning Ult Captain America, he has his Shield to protect him

My Point was that healers can tank massive attacks without having their bodies being blown apart. Maybe it was not needed to use Daken and X-23 in the example- so I won't dedicate anymore scans to it, as it is Wolverine who is fighting rather than them. Nevertheless, considering that Daken has also taken heavy hits from Skaar (he was sucker punched) as well as Thing, without having limbs splayed everywhere, I wouldn't call it PIS. Wolverine has the advantage of the natural healing as well as his Adamantuim, which covers his ligaments and tendons.

Notice the words "Skeletal Materials". That includes Bones, Tendons and ligaments.

Wolverine has also resisted being ripped apart from Baal and Savage Hulk who are 70 and 100 tonners respectively.

So Logan isn't going to be dismembered by explosions anytime soon.

Logan durability is great, lucky my team has many ways to counter him.

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Scan 1) Adamantium Tip Syringe Arrow.

Scan 2) Taser Arrow.

Scan 3-5) Tranquilizer mini Arrow.

Any hit of the Tranq will drop Wolverine Faster than it did Hulk or Spider Man.

Liara Like wise can Incapacitate Logan with Stasis, Lift, or Singularity. Since I threw a Singularity in the field, forcing your team a smaller and more easy to hit you area, then Liara can hit another with Stasis causing them to freeze for 20 seconds.

That means A) Wolverine will be harder press to dodge in a smaller area with 3 guns on him, or B) he will get caught up in the Singularity making him a non factor for a few seconds and a easy target for HE Trangs or Roland's Shots..

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First off, no one is going to know as much about Cap as you do lol. I assumed his healing factor was buffed, because his healing feat in the Ultimate's after facing down Ult Hulk was to the extent of healing from Broken bones and dislocated joints in the space of one to two days. That's impressive, but its nothing Spider-Man hasn't done before. What Spider-Man hasn't done is heal from Knife wounds in minutes, I as from what I've read from Ult Cap, neither has he before then. However, if he has Healed mid-battle from slashes from Ult Sabretooth, then I concede that point. The larger point is that Ult Cap can take alot of punishment before going down, and that healing from Vampirism (Which is something the Ult Hulk Clone couldn't do) is his best healing feat to date.

Re read the book, its stated many times his Healing Factor was always that good and Cap was already fighting off Vampirism with no probs at all. He just needed time. He was always like that in Healing :)

Soon I will be making the Ultimate Respect Thread on all Ultimate characters and feats. I just got my Ultimate Books up to date and reading them now.

Also don't be sad about the use of your scans. Consider it an honor. The alternative would be looking through my hard-drive, scanning issues or screen shotting my comic-book selection on comixology. Ironically, that's what's I'm doing for in your point Tourney. Besides Killemall steals all the street-level debater scans. He even admitted so himself D-:

Im cool, its the fact those are crappy ones. Like I said, before the Month is out I will make a Respect Thread with all the nicer scans and clean up the rest. Ultimate Marvel needs more love.

I not sure about suspension bridges being able to hold their structural integrity when blown in half. In any case the shockwave from using Nuke arrows and larger explosions could backfire on the team, if not en capsule the whole area of the Bridge.

Good point. I am thankfully equipped with other means.

First off, Wolverine has endured eating enough Blowfish poison to kill twenty men, and laughed it off.

Gorgon has comparable healing feats to Logan as well, so I doubt he feel the effects strongly, if at all. As for Ultimate Cap, he has worked with Hawkeye, so he will be somewhat familiar with some of Hawkeye's equipment. Also Ult Cap's resilience may not be as good Logan's or Gorgon's but it important to note that in the Power grid for durability for Ult Cap is higher than Ult Spider-Man, and his feats support that IMO. And to take a look at the Blade and the Ultimate's scan again.

It clearly states that he is immune to any Nerve toxins and poisons of any kind.

Also Cap fought dozens of people with enhanced strength and durability while choked full of tranquilizers

All good points however Cap was afraid of the Tranqs in ultimate Avengers, knowing it would slow him down. Some of these Tranqs have been used on Hulk who is likewise immune to standard trangs.

So I see no reason why a Hulk level Tranq will not put down anyone on your team.

Tagging Spider-Man is really impressive. However it is important to note that Spider-Man did have his back turned when he was shot. Ult Hawkeye also did end up incapacitied by Spider-Man's webbing. Replace the webbing with the Shield throw of a 4-5 tonner, and Ult Hawkeye would have probably been Koed.

However re look at the Scans. HE kept Spidey from webbing away by shooting out his webs. Then dodged the majority of SM webs as well. Knowing full well the time limit on the Tranq.

He forcefully kept the speedy Spider from escaping and still dodged much of Spideys attacks.

Since you have brought up Ult Black Widow having Superhuman Speed, I thought I would bring up a glaring hole in my argument which I'm sure alot of people are probably screaming at me, for not mentioning earlier. All of my team have Superhuman reflexes, Speed and agility. I do feel that alot of my argument has so far been about me proving the resilience of my team against your firepower. I while I think my team would fall if exposed to enough firepower, they are not just going to be tanking the fire. They are actively going to be dodging, moving closer and trying to take down the team in close combat, where they would have the edge.

Yeah, I thought this was strange tactics.

Ult Cap is at least on Captain America's level in pure speed, probably higher (given the magnitude of the feats he has performed). And Cap has done this

Cap completely embarrasses Daredevil speedwise while keeping a steady heartbeat. In the next scan he runs at 60MPH while carrying Bucky Barnes- that's what a mile a minute equates to, on uneven ground.

Just to keep in mind, Daredevil himself has moved at the speed of thought

What I'm trying to say here is that Ult Cap>=Cap<Daredevil. With this type of speed, Ult Cap is going to be able to close the Gap very quickly on the ranged opponents. On top of that, Ult Cap is an excellent Bullet-Timer with excellent situation awareness

In the second and third scans, Ult Cap has only just been recovered, which makes the feat impressive enough to ignore the racial slur he aimed at Nick Fury >.>

Granted while these soldiers and goons are no where near Ult Hawkeye's and Roland's level he is dodging many of them at close proximity. Ult Cap is going to start from further away, and be facing less people. Also their is going to be cover in the form of cars to take cover. In the Open, I wager on Cap getting shot down, but with his speed, shield and cover I'd say there is good chance of Ult Cap getting close without suffering significant damage.

I also have a Scan of Ultimate Cap Dodging a Full Auto AK and jumping through the bullets.

No Caption Provided

Its beautiful.

Wolverine also has Superhuman Speed. Given his feats, it should be around Cap level, if not a bit higher.

Wolverine does have a penchant for tanking bullets, be as soon as he gets hit in the head by one of Roland's bullets, and finds that his flesh wound isn't healing, he is instantly going to start relying on his speed and skill, to avoid being shot, at least in lethal areas. And since Roland's bullets are not indestructible, only able to kill anything, Wolverine would have the bonus of having cover to help him.

This is the Problem with Wolverine, He tanks attacks. He always ops to tank a attack over dodging.

Also as I said the Biotic Singularity and possible Lift from Liara...

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Can totally stop Wolvie Dead in his tracks.

As for Gorgon, the simplest explanation would be he is flat out better than Logan. Wolverine pretty much admits it here.

Wolverine also quotes on how fast Gorgon is. In his his own words he admits that no one is as fast as Gorgon, which is pretty impressive considering that he has fought, and managed to tag Spider-Man multiple times.

In fact its a common trope that when people fight Gorgon they can't believe how fast he is. Here he tags Slingshot, a speedster who ran between two Mexican cities in a few moment if IIRC.

Gorgon has excellent combat awareness- he fight blindfolded for lolz, as seen when he dispatches the Hand ninja's with ease. Having an Unbreakable Katana also gives, the ability to slice and parry bullets fired at him by your ranged team. Of course, your team are by the far superior marksmen, but your team is also using semi automatic fire, which is would allow greater respite. And also, he is shown to be a Bullet dodger at close range, though considering his speed against Wolverine, such is to be expected.

With his Sword, Speed and Skill, as well as cover, I also think that Gorgon can get close enough to deal close range damage.

Gorgon is quoted as "Nobody is faster tha Gorgon" yet we all know Quick Silver is lol.

Hyperbole statement if I ever heard one. Anyway Gorgon may be fast, however he is against 3 Super Fast opponents here in Range Combat.

I also have more tricks to slow them down or outright keep them from engaging me.

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Flash Bang Arrow would throw them off.

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Or a SHOCKWAVE! Shock Wave tosses up up with anti gravity, 700 Neutons of Force and momentum, 3.5 Meter Radius with every pop, and make you easy target if you get too close to me. Near Undependable in this confine area.

That may be true yes, but the Suspension bridge is alot bigger than the bridge shown, so the funneling affect won't be as pronounced. Also the Black hole could be cleared with a single leap, Cap has jumped up two stories before, and Wolverine has jumped up 30 feet into the air to attack sentinels and dodge Cyclops' eye beams IIRC.

Problem is tho, your team has no idea of the Gravity well untill it is too late. They will not know the Danger zone limits until to late.

Also being in the air takes away speed and ability to dodge. It make you a easier target in the air.

Bone Claw Wolverine was literally riddled with holes from Adamantuim Bullets and healed instantly. And due to pressure from Roland, he's going to trying his best to try and dodge bullets. Wolverine also has the advantage of his Adamantuim skeleton to try to tank damage. Cap's got his shield and speed, while Gorgon can Parry with his Sword and bullet time. Adamantuim is pretty much unbreakable via physical force- so unbreakable that all instances of Classic Hulk and Thor breaking the stuff was retconned so it was secondary Adamantuim. The extra power is nice, I still favor the Adamantuim in this case.

All true, what it will do tho is cause Wolverine more pain than Hood did.

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Hood hurt Wolverine bad to the point he would not chase after Hood.

Also Mass Acceleration Propel Bullets to 1/100th the Speed of Light. They are Hyper Sonic in the lowest grade weapons.

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The point is Wolverine cannot dodge that speed.

Gorgon has never shown to parry that speed.

Cap will not Dodge or block that speed.

They will get hit and Cap will be hit the hardest by it.

Liara speed is also very fast. Here she out moves and dodge Hyper Sonic bullets and Speed Blitz 4 Blue Sons mercs.

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She can easy keep up and target you team when Biotic up in her power.

First things first, what is the range of stasis. Can she use it from all the way across the bridge, or do they need to be close. The stasis also does tend to take a bit of time to charge, and Shepherd was able to twitch after it was fired before being frozen. If Liara tried to do that at close range against any of my team, she could risk getting Blitzed. Some extra info on that would be nice.

Stasis is limited by her Line of Sight and Line of Sight Only.

Sheperd did not twitch. That was crappy Computer Graphic Card lol. As I posted it has No range factor but Line of Sight. The only Down side is you cannot be harm in stasis. However it does make this a 3 on 2 battle.

This will be a 3 on 2 battle for 21 seconds.

Bamsky!

Now lets say you do get in Close with 2 of your guys, close enough to kill... I have 2 more surprises for ya.

Rolandls Skolpadda. A gift from the Turtle/Bear Beam to his Ka-tet. It uses the multiversal Psy Power of the Turtle/Bear beam to awe any who look at it. Only the Undead are immune.

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Your Team has no way of knowing about it and no Psy Defense I am aware of. Nor undead. So this alone will stop any of your guys dead in there track in a near close combat situation.

Then there is Liara's Biotic AOE.

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This attack slices through steel with no problem and Biotic up increase Liara's Strength and Speed (I showed her Biotic up speed earlier). Gorgon stands no chance to survive the slice and dice. Wolverine would like wise be maulled badly. Cap Shield only covers so much.

Your move.

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#18 Edited by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

Okay voting is open now, I make one last rounding off point, then I'm done, you can do the same if you want

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#19 Edited by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

I think i'll go with Laflux on this one

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#20 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

I dont see how Adamntium will protect the major arteries tunning through the leg or arms. You can bleed to death in minuets.

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I also dont see Adamantium protecting the eyes as its cartlidge and Muscle behind the eyeball, not bone.

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I'll repost the scan describing Wolverine's skeletal structure.

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Skeletal structure include Cartilage as well. So, that's covered. As for Logan bleeding out per say, it could happen. If it reached a major Blood vessel near the heart or the neck perhaps. However, what you have to realize is that Logan being hit by those mythical bullets is not going to completely cripple his healing factor, throughout, just at that area. Damage if obtained on the arm, can be essentially remain there, and not hamper Logan, the blood lose to the wound would be consistently replaced as his bone marrow cells wouldn't be affected by the Guns, since Roland didn't aim for those spots, and even if he did, the Adamantuim would protect his cells. The way to put Logan down would be to starve off his brain of oxygen, either by removing it, or hitting a vital place- heart major vessel in neck, which would rob his brain of Oxygen before it could tell the body to heal. Roland could put Logan down, but I don't think hitting arms and legs would work.

The same logic could applied to Gorgon due to his similar healing stats.

As for the drugs, I'm not sure that it would work. Tranquilizers are generally not a potent as bonafide poisons of which Logan has endured large quantities without issue. Furthermore, what are the healing feats of Ult Hulk. The Smart Ult Hulk Clone who lead the vampire invasion on Shield wasn't able to heal from being a vampire. Cap was. Obviously the Ult Hulk Clone was not as good as the real thing, but it was Shield who described Ult Cap as being immune to all toxins. they of course, knew about Ult Hulk and have knowledge of Hawkeye and his gear.

1.Like wise can Incapacitate Logan with Stasis, Lift, or Singularity. Since I threw a Singularity in the field, forcing your team a smaller and more easy to hit you area, then Liara can hit another with Stasis causing them to freeze for 20 seconds.

That means A) Wolverine will be harder press to dodge in a smaller area with 3 guns on him, or B) he will get caught up in the Singularity making him a non factor for a few seconds and a easy target for HE Trangs or Roland's Shots..

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2.Re read the book, its stated many times his Healing Factor was always that good and Cap was already fighting off Vampirism with no probs at all. He just needed time. He was always like that in Healing :)

Soon I will be making the Ultimate Respect Thread on all Ultimate characters and feats. I just got my Ultimate Books up to date and reading them now.

Im cool, its the fact those are crappy ones. Like I said, before the Month is out I will make a Respect Thread with all the nicer scans and clean up the rest. Ultimate Marvel needs more love.

Good point. I am thankfully equipped with other means.

3.All good points however Cap was afraid of the Tranqs in ultimate Avengers, knowing it would slow him down. Some of these Tranqs have been used on Hulk who is likewise immune to standard trangs.

So I see no reason why a Hulk level Tranq will not put down anyone on your team.

4.However re look at the Scans. HE kept Spidey from webbing away by shooting out his webs. Then dodged the majority of SM webs as well. Knowing full well the time limit on the Tranq.

He forcefully kept the speedy Spider from escaping and still dodged much of Spideys attacks.

Yeah, I thought this was strange tactics.

I also have a Scan of Ultimate Cap Dodging a Full Auto AK and jumping through the bullets.

No Caption Provided

Its beautiful.

5.This is the Problem with Wolverine, He tanks attacks. He always ops to tank a attack over dodging.

Also as I said the Biotic Singularity and possible Lift from Liara...

No Caption Provided

Can totally stop Wolvie Dead in his tracks.

6.Gorgon is quoted as "Nobody is faster tha Gorgon" yet we all know Quick Silver is lol.

Hyperbole statement if I ever heard one. Anyway Gorgon may be fast, however he is against 3 Super Fast opponents here in Range Combat.

I also have more tricks to slow them down or outright keep them from engaging me.

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7.Flash Bang Arrow would throw them off.

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Or a SHOCKWAVE! Shock Wave tosses up up with anti gravity, 700 Neutons of Force and momentum, 3.5 Meter Radius with every pop, and make you easy target if you get too close to me. Near Undependable in this confine area.

8.Problem is tho, your team has no idea of the Gravity well untill it is too late. They will not know the Danger zone limits until to late.

Also being in the air takes away speed and ability to dodge. It make you a easier target in the air.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

Hood hurt Wolverine bad to the point he would not chase after Hood.

9.Also Mass Acceleration Propel Bullets to 1/100th the Speed of Light. They are Hyper Sonic in the lowest grade weapons.

No Caption Provided

10.The point is Wolverine cannot dodge that speed.

Gorgon has never shown to parry that speed.

Cap will not Dodge or block that speed.

They will get hit and Cap will be hit the hardest by it.

11.Liara speed is also very fast. Here she out moves and dodge Hyper Sonic bullets and Speed Blitz 4 Blue Sons mercs.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

She can easy keep up and target you team when Biotic up in her power.

Stasis is limited by her Line of Sight and Line of Sight Only.

Sheperd did not twitch. That was crappy Computer Graphic Card lol. As I posted it has No range factor but Line of Sight. The only Down side is you cannot be harm in stasis. However it does make this a 3 on 2 battle.

This will be a 3 on 2 battle for 21 seconds.

Bamsky!

12.Now lets say you do get in Close with 2 of your guys, close enough to kill... I have 2 more surprises for ya.

Rolandls Skolpadda. A gift from the Turtle/Bear Beam to his Ka-tet. It uses the multiversal Psy Power of the Turtle/Bear beam to awe any who look at it. Only the Undead are immune.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Your Team has no way of knowing about it and no Psy Defense I am aware of. Nor undead. So this alone will stop any of your guys dead in there track in a near close combat situation.

13.Then there is Liara's Biotic AOE.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This attack slices through steel with no problem and Biotic up increase Liara's Strength and Speed (I showed her Biotic up speed earlier). Gorgon stands no chance to survive the slice and dice. Wolverine would like wise be maulled badly. Cap Shield only covers so much.

Your move.

1. The singularity is rendered less useful because of the starting distance. If she uses it to early it will expire before team get close, if she uses it to late, she could get jumped

2. Lol you the da man when it comes to Ult Cap, I'll take your word for it :P

3. I mentioned my rebbutle to the my team and the tranq arrows earlier above

4.Yes, he tagged Spider-Man and had to keep away because he knew if Spider-Man webbed him up, then punched him, his task would have been failed. He's going to be going up against Cap, who has demonstrated more resistance to tranq arrows, knows his tricks, and has ranged options with assault rifle fire, shield tosses and grenades. Or Logan, who has demonstrated even greater resistance to posion (shown when fighting through the hand and with the Blowfish gag). Or Gorgon, who has demonstrated even faster combat reflexes than Spider-Man (616 and 1610) and has Logan's healing. And how do we know that the tranq arrows used by Hawkeye were Hulk ones? Ult Spider-Man has a smaller dosage tolerance that the Hulk, giving Ult Spider-Man Hulk Tranq could kill him.

5. Wolverine has a reputation for tanking bullets, but if he is hit by something that is going to seriously harm him he's going to try his best to dodge it. He has a great tactical mind and is one of the best H2H fighters in the Marvel Universe. Even when reverted to a feral state while training in the danger room, the X-Men were still commenting on how high his brain functions were. If he was to get hit and he doesn't start healing, he's going to change up his tactics. He did a similar thing when he was hit by the M-Blade.

6 and 7. Of course Gorgon isn't the fastest there is. I think that honor belongs to the Runner (whatever is he up to now........). Its just scans showing that Gorgon is very fast, and has speed and reflexes that has left bullet-timers and speedsters dumbfounded. As for the flash arrows, Gorgon regularly fights blindfolded, Logan has dodged bullets in thick smoke and has other enhanced senses, the flash arrows are not going to be a problem. Ult Cap may have a decent chance of predicting a flash arrow due to previous experience and close his eyes, to prevent the glare.

8. The gravity well is going to be dragging in cars. I think the team would know something is up and avoid it.

9. Considering Logan has been burnt to a crisp without so much as whimper, had his guts falling out of his stomach, I'd say its a lower end showing. Plus The Hood was being amped by Dorm in that instance IIRC. Furthermore, I think that was New Avengers, written by none other than Mr Bendis who has a notorious habit of downplaying Wolverine. Logan being beaten rather easily by Jessica Drew twice, being Mentally lobotomized by a Young Jean, despite his Psi Shields, have all happened under him.

9 and 10. That is indeed impressive. However, its standard for Street-levelers to dodge lightning, lasers and other stuff which supposedly move at near Luminal speed due to good reflexes and aim dodging. Cap and Wolverine both have enhanced vision (Cap has said he sees faster, and considering Ult Cap's bullet-time feats are just as good if not better, I would wager the same with him to). Ult Cap, for example has blocked lightning with his shield. It would be a bit of a stretch to say Gorgon has enhanced eyesight, but he doesn't need it. He has telepathy, and could easily read Liara's mind, and aim dodge concerning that. He was effortlessly able to read Elektra's every move once her psi blocks were removed.

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While the handgun is indeed more powerful than a normal one, it is not going to get past the Adamantuim defense of Logan's bones or healing, Gorgon's Katana or healing (he was tanking Adamantium without issue) or Cap's Shield. All three have ways to counter it, and to two of the three, being hit won't be a problem.

11. Do you have any evidence that those guys were hyper-sonic? Even so, if Gorgon was to go into close combat with Liara he has the advantage of being Superhuman in every category, as well as telepathy to predict her moves. And I think a good argument could be made to say that Gorgon is as fast, if not faster than Liara.

If Stasis is limited by line of sight, won't my team be safe if you can't see them? Cars can cover them, and all of them are probably fast enough for normal humans to have trouble tracking in the first place. Plus, with Gorgon's telepathy, he could easily warn them of when Liara was about to pull such a trick. Perhaps more cunningly, he could start telling Liara's worst memories to throw her off, as he did to Logan when they fought.

12. Isn't mind control stuff like that banned in the tourney? Even so, Gorgon could be classed as undead so would be immune to such things, also with his telepathy he could quickly warn the team about that, and they could simply close their eyes.

13. Gorgon has survived slashes from Adamantuim as I posted earlier, as has Logan. Liara being able to cut through steel is nice, but I don't think it will slow down these two that much, if at all

Overall, I think my team has enough speed, resilience and Intel (in the form of Gorgon's telepathy) to get close and win due to better H2H abilites.

If you want to post some more, go ahead, but I'm ready to vote.

Also people please give Cadence a chance to reply before starting to vote. Let's be fair here.......................

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#21 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll back Cadence. Wasn't convinced with Laflux's response to Liara's biotics and he never gave one to the Skolpadda (which looks pretty frickin' op, lol). It was a really good debate, especially with Cadence helping Laflux with Cap feats. :P

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#23 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: cool, you didn't even need Cadence to post to make up your mind :D

TBF, I did have most of those feats myself, but it was just easier to get them ready made rather than scan them lol.

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#24 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@dredeuced: cool, you didn't even need Cadence to post to make up your mind :D

TBF, I did have most of those feats myself, but it was just easier to get them ready made rather than scan them lol.

The funny thing is, I didn't even see your latest post. I was reading the thread after Esquire prompted me in the main thread (one hour ago compared to the post you made 30 minutes ago) and it took me longer than the 12 minutes you posted before me to finish reading it because it was such a long debate -- I didn't refresh and instead posted my vote (because I was only here to read what was posted at that time and vote). I'll read your last post and wait for Cadence's final post to see if it changes my mind. Assume my vote rescinded until then.

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#25 Edited by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@dredeuced: cool, you didn't even need Cadence to post to make up your mind :D

TBF, I did have most of those feats myself, but it was just easier to get them ready made rather than scan them lol.

The funny thing is, I didn't even see your latest post. I was reading the thread after Esquire prompted me in the main thread (one hour ago compared to the post you made 30 minutes ago) and it took me longer than the 12 minutes you posted before me to finish reading it because it was such a long debate -- I didn't refresh and instead posted my vote (because I was only here to read what was posted at that time and vote). I'll read your last post and wait for Cadence's final post to see if it changes my mind. Assume my vote rescinded until then.

LOl I will post now.

1. The singularity is rendered less useful because of the starting distance. If she uses it to early it will expire before team get close, if she uses it to late, she could get jumped

However Liara can cast it within a second of its use. Its recharge Time with her Gear Loadup (and Biotic Master Ability) allows for a near instant Recharge.

2. Lol you the da man when it comes to Ult Cap, I'll take your word for it :P

Damn right! Respect thread coming soon. And MOG what respect I have for Reed Richards. I put him above Phoenix 5 lol.

3. I mentioned my rebbutle to the my team and the tranq arrows earlier above

The Tranq arrows I will assume are all on Hulk level. Why? Because HE takes no prisoners. He will for sure (with no orders of taking it easy) be packing the Ultimate Hulk Traqs that KOed the more impressive and vicious Ultimate Hulk. Not the clearly inferior Nerd Hulk.

4.Yes, he tagged Spider-Man and had to keep away because he knew if Spider-Man webbed him up, then punched him, his task would have been failed. He's going to be going up against Cap, who has demonstrated more resistance to tranq arrows, knows his tricks, and has ranged options with assault rifle fire, shield tosses and grenades. Or Logan, who has demonstrated even greater resistance to posion (shown when fighting through the hand and with the Blowfish gag). Or Gorgon, who has demonstrated even faster combat reflexes than Spider-Man (616 and 1610) and has Logan's healing. And how do we know that the tranq arrows used by Hawkeye were Hulk ones? Ult Spider-Man has a smaller dosage tolerance that the Hulk, giving Ult Spider-Man Hulk Tranq could kill him.

Cap beat HE once. How? HE was holding back alot.

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Yet HE going all out killed 3 Omega Level Mutant Beings.

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As seen he beats 3 beings who ripped a Heli Carrier in half and disarm all of SHIELD with Shattered Glass and his Arrows!

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Heck here he shows the ability to dodge gunfire from a highly train military and keep stride in his killing of squad after squad.

5. Wolverine has a reputation for tanking bullets, but if he is hit by something that is going to seriously harm him he's going to try his best to dodge it. He has a great tactical mind and is one of the best H2H fighters in the Marvel Universe. Even when reverted to a feral state while training in the danger room, the X-Men were still commenting on how high his brain functions were. If he was to get hit and he doesn't start healing, he's going to change up his tactics. He did a similar thing when he was hit by the M-Blade.

Tough for Logan he 8/10 showings tanks attacks rather than dodge them. Too little, to late for Hawkeye's Hulk Tranqs, Roland's Guns, or Liara's Biotics.

6 and 7. Of course Gorgon isn't the fastest there is. I think that honor belongs to the Runner (whatever is he up to now........). Its just scans showing that Gorgon is very fast, and has speed and reflexes that has left bullet-timers and speedsters dumbfounded. As for the flash arrows, Gorgon regularly fights blindfolded, Logan has dodged bullets in thick smoke and has other enhanced senses, the flash arrows are not going to be a problem. Ult Cap may have a decent chance of predicting a flash arrow due to previous experience and close his eyes, to prevent the glare.

True. However Logan have been effected by Loud Noises and blindness has thworn of his game before he can adjust. Thats ALL the time HE or Roland need. Cap likewise has been affected by Flash bang attack. Ultimate Wolverine escaped Ultimate Cap with a Flash Bang.

BAMSKY

8. The gravity well is going to be dragging in cars. I think the team would know something is up and avoid it.

I dont see many Cars on the bridge there.

Nor mentions of people.

9. Considering Logan has been burnt to a crisp without so much as whimper, had his guts falling out of his stomach, I'd say its a lower end showing. Plus The Hood was being amped by Dorm in that instance IIRC. Furthermore, I think that was New Avengers, written by none other than Mr Bendis who has a notorious habit of downplaying Wolverine. Logan being beaten rather easily by Jessica Drew twice, being Mentally lobotomized by a Young Jean, despite his Psi Shields, have all happened under him.

Hood was not amped when he shot Logan jumk off which in turn cause Logan to say screw it. Honestly saying Bendis wolverine should not be counted is a cop out. People do the same with Garth Ennis. Marvel said THOSE FIGHTS are cannon and chose the writer to portray that character. So according to Marvel Wolverine base on feats can be really smart, or really stupid. Even back in the day Wolverine was not all that great of a Fighter compared to Iron Fist, Shang Chi, ect. Sometimes he has great skill, most times he is a brawler.

9 and 10. That is indeed impressive. However, its standard for Street-levelers to dodge lightning, lasers and other stuff which supposedly move at near Luminal speed due to good reflexes and aim dodging. Cap and Wolverine both have enhanced vision (Cap has said he sees faster, and considering Ult Cap's bullet-time feats are just as good if not better, I would wager the same with him to). Ult Cap, for example has blocked lightning with his shield. It would be a bit of a stretch to say Gorgon has enhanced eyesight, but he doesn't need it. He has telepathy, and could easily read Liara's mind, and aim dodge concerning that. He was effortlessly able to read Elektra's every move once her psi blocks were removed.

The problem is they are not Flash and can only reasonable dodge Bullets at best. Stasis is instant and requires only eyesight and a flik of her hyper sonic hand.

Also I think its funny how you belive Liara's mind can be read. Asari are psychic beings that can flay minds and mate by Mind Melding! Dont see it happening.

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Liara delves into Sheperd's Mind.

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Liara departs a Mental Gift to Sheperd.

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Liara threatening, and confirmed by her father a real threat, Mind Flaying.

So Gorgon minor TP is nothing.

While the handgun is indeed more powerful than a normal one, it is not going to get past the Adamantuim defense of Logan's bones or healing, Gorgon's Katana or healing (he was tanking Adamantium without issue) or Cap's Shield. All three have ways to counter it, and to two of the three, being hit won't be a problem.

That hand gun can be countered. Not the Scoirpion!

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Skip to 1:25

As seen this Gun fire up to 5 rounds and each one is explosive as well a sticky bomb. Tanks these at your own risk. Add that to Liaras Biotic Attacks... bad day.

11. Do you have any evidence that those guys were hyper-sonic? Even so, if Gorgon was to go into close combat with Liara he has the advantage of being Superhuman in every category, as well as telepathy to predict her moves. And I think a good argument could be made to say that Gorgon is as fast, if not faster than Liara.

No more hyper sonic the thugs that shoot at Wolverine, Cap, or Gorgon..... the point is Liara dodges Hypersonic Rounds after they are fire on her.

Gorgon is not the only TP guy here and cannot really affect Liara's mind as far as I seen. as for faster... prove it.

Gorgon is faster than wolverine. Big deal. Wolverine is Mach one. Liara is booking Mach 5+.

If Stasis is limited by line of sight, won't my team be safe if you can't see them? Cars can cover them, and all of them are probably fast enough for normal humans to have trouble tracking in the first place. Plus, with Gorgon's telepathy, he could easily warn them of when Liara was about to pull such a trick. Perhaps more cunningly, he could start telling Liara's worst memories to throw her off, as he did to Logan when they fought.

Does it matter if Liara sees you guys in temporary slow mo and hits one? Again Gorgon TP will not warn anyone.

12. Isn't mind control stuff like that bannedin the tourney? Even so, Gorgon could be classed as undead so would be immune to such things, also with his telepathy he could quickly warn the team about that, and they could simply close their eyes.

Hows it Mind control? Its a Glamour. Simple as that. It draws your attention and keeps it there till its out of site. You need Psy defense, Undead, Blindness, or know not to look at it.

You have 4 ways out and your best hope is Gorgon TP on roland which will not work as Roland is immune to Psy people as well. Flagg, Mordrin, crimson King, all uber Psykers, Roland prove immune too their TP. So Gorgon is not reading his mind either.

13. Gorgon has survived slashes from Adamantuim as I posted earlier, as has Logan. Liara being able to cut through steel is nice, but I don't think it will slow down these two that much, if at all

The point is I seen no Scans of Gorgon being sliced into 20 pieces and instantly healing. Any proof? I know Cap cannot. Then its 3 on 1 Wolverine. Stasis for the win lol.

Overall, I think my team has enough speed, resilience and Intel (in the form of Gorgon's telepathy) to get close and win due to better H2H abilites.

If you want to post some more, go ahead, but I'm ready to vote.

1) I think you have no real Defence feats for the Glamour of the Skolpadda.

2) I believe you have to much gunfire from characters who have tag super fast beings before.

3) I proven Liara and Roland are immune to Gorgon TP trick.

4) I proven many ways of cutting you down, stalling, or simply keeping your team off balance.

5) I have ways around your healing factors in Hulk Tranqs, Biotics, and Magic Bullets.

Im ready for Votes.

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#26 Posted by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm giving this one to @cadencev2. I like a lot of theses characters, but the bottle-necking and sheer amount of ranged variety here make it hard for the Kung-Fu healers to get in. Both contestants gave a great debate here, but in all, Biotics + A guy who pretty much never misses and another guy with mystical arms to utilize (not too mention exploding bullets from the scorpion) would make it next to impossible for them to get close. Though one point on Liara and Biotics, I've never seen or heard of her having the ability to make Shockwaves or anything outside her norm from the games.

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#27 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: @laflux: Laflux is right there is no mind messing whatsoever, Esquire was very specific in the rules.

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#30 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

Keeping my vote for Cadence due to lack of relative counterplay to the biotics, though he's said a few questionable things that I'll hold off on saying (I might have to play him next round :P)

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#31 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

2-0 to CadenceV2

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#32 Posted by Deranged Midget (18346 posts) - - Show Bio

I've grown to dislike voting for these things, especially when both parties have done such excellent jobs.

But since I'm here anyway, I feel Cadence would have an ever so slight edge due to the ranged capabilities of his team and his use of Biotics with Liara.

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#33 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

3-0 to CadenceV2

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#34 Edited by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh and just a quick point, voting is not to a set amount, but who have the most votes after a certain amount of time

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#35 Edited by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the best notification I got all day. I have to agree with Deranged Midget though, you don't really want to pick a winner when you've both done so well. Much props and respect @cadencev2 for making it interesting and using characters i've never heard of or seen used in battle forums and also to @laflux for holding it down for characters we've seen in battle forums thousands of times and not making predictable arguments. I'm going with Cadencev2 on this one though he seems to have covered everything as far as what his team would do about healing factor & speed.

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#36 Edited by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

4-0 to Cadencev2

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#37 Posted by New_World_Order (14895 posts) - - Show Bio

Very good debate, too good to call for me.

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#38 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7661 posts) - - Show Bio

Given Logan's senses, I feel he'd sniff the weaponry ... and know they're running headlong into enemy fire were they to take the direct approach. It would be dumb and bad writing to see them do that. Given the speed of the trio, their tactical and physical abilities, there are any number of other ways to abridge the distance and make the battle more even.

If laflux' team plays it a little smarter, they should take this. If they go all 'raar', take the direct approach, I believe they stand a good chance of being cut down. Though I truly don't believe there's much any can do against Gorgon regardless ...

Not sure if laflux addressed alternate pathways (I didn't read every single line of the debate) - if not, guess I'll have to vote Cadence here. The chance all three make it across the bridge unscathed before the superhuman sharpshooters take em down is better than some might think, but probably not realistically enough to grant a majority win.

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#40 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

I will go with laflux.

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#42 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

5-2 to Cadencev2

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#43 Edited by Dextersinister (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm voting for Cadence although I do believe Lafluxs team would win this one.

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#44 Posted by laflux (24720 posts) - - Show Bio

6-2 to CadenceV2

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#45 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Edited by Killemall (18972 posts) - - Show Bio

voting Laflux in a close match up.

Was an awesome read (but i did not even read half of the debate, sorry.. too lazy .. cant help)

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5b2e798651249 (7245 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

Sorry Laflux, but I vote CadenceV2. It was a close match.

@cadencev2 said:

@theacidskull: whoa, your back.

*You're.

No no, he was just pointing out how muscular Acidskull's back was.

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#49 Edited by deactivated-5b2e798651249 (7245 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by Pokergeist (23177 posts) - - Show Bio